Does anyone use tokens (like real, physical tokens)?

emilysusana
emilysusana Posts: 416 Member
edited March 2021 in Health and Weight Loss
This is not my first rodeo. I’ve successfully lost a lot of weight on here a couple of times; I’ve lost a few pounds on here many, many times.

My issue seems to be incorporating drinks. I’m most successful without them. But I also give up my plan altogether sometimes because I’m tired of zero drinks.

I’ve tried just fitting them into my calorie allotment and that works for awhile but then I find myself fitting them in each day, even when there is no room... like by eating less food that I should. Obviously, that doesn’t last

I’m trying something this time where each week I can have just 5 drinks. I am using actual tokens which I “turn in” (move from one jar to another) when I use them. I can still only use them when I have the calories for them. I am also letting myself earn an extra token or so for the next week (not the same week I’m in) by doing a a few miles of extra walking (which I write down but don’t record in MFP). When I cash in those tokens, they don’t have to be within my calorie goal, because I haven’t eaten back those calories yet. I can use them for a bonus glass of wine (this was my plan for how I’d handle special occasions where I might want to have a refill on my one drink).

Has anyone tried anything similar to this? It seems kind of silly, but I think it might we a way to better incorporate moderate alcohol consumption in my weight management plan.

Replies

  • sarah7591
    sarah7591 Posts: 415 Member
    I think it is a great idea if that works for you!
  • Thoin
    Thoin Posts: 961 Member
    emilysusana wrote: »
    This is not my first rodeo. I’ve successfully lost a lot of weight on here a couple of times; I’ve lost a few pounds on here many, many times.

    My issue seems to be incorporating drinks. I’m most successful without them. But I also give up my plan altogether sometimes because I’m tired of zero drinks.

    I’ve tried just fitting them into my calorie allotment and that works for awhile but then I find myself fitting them in each day, even when there is no room... like by eating less food that I should. Obviously, that doesn’t last

    I’m trying something this time where each week I can have just 5 drinks. I am using actual tokens which I “turn in” (move from one jar to another) when I use them. I can still only use them when I have the calories for them. I am also letting myself earn an extra token or so for the next week (not the same week I’m in) by doing a a few miles of extra walking (which I write down but don’t record in MFP). When I cash in those tokens, they don’t have to be within my calorie goal, because I haven’t eaten back those calories yet. I can use them for a bonus glass of wine (this was my plan for how I’d handle special occasions where I might want to have a refill on my one drink).

    Has anyone tried anything similar to this? It seems kind of silly, but I think it might we a way to better incorporate moderate alcohol consumption in my weight management plan.

    Here are my 2 "tricks".
    1. I love water. I've learned to taste the satiety my body feels not the actual taste. (this is more if you are talking about Cola)
    2. Calorie Cycling. This has been a game changer. Want to drink some this weekend? I shave 100 - 200 calories off my daily goal and then I have 500 - 1000 calories on the weekend to drink.
  • Theoldguy1
    Theoldguy1 Posts: 2,496 Member
    NorthCascades wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    Good luck with that.

    I think if you are having to make deals with yourself and count drinks...



    I just quit altogether. Makes weight management and all of life so much easier.

    And, yeah. I used matchsticks. It didn't work.

    Would you also suggest eliminating ice cream or cookies, etc from the OP's diet if they enjoyed these items or moderate them in some way as she is proposing to do with alcohol?

    If somebody had a problem with them, where they've realized they're unable to moderate.

    In the case of the OP she is proposing "moderating" herself at 5 drinks a week. @cmriverside doesn't think moderating will help, if you have to moderate or "budget" should just quit entirely.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,454 Member
    also, why doesn't the bold text feature work correctly?


  • Theoldguy1
    Theoldguy1 Posts: 2,496 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    NorthCascades wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    Good luck with that.

    I think if you are having to make deals with yourself and count drinks...



    I just quit altogether. Makes weight management and all of life so much easier.

    And, yeah. I used matchsticks. It didn't work.

    Would you also suggest eliminating ice cream or cookies, etc from the OP's diet if they enjoyed these items or moderate them in some way as she is proposing to do with alcohol?

    If somebody had a problem with them, where they've realized they're unable to moderate.

    In the case of the OP she is proposing "moderating" herself at 5 drinks a week. @cmriverside doesn't think moderating will help, if you have to moderate or "budget" should just quit entirely.

    If someone has to think about this that much and self negotiate, that is a red flag. People who naturally moderate or who can take it or leave it do not have to put this much effort into where to put the alcohol in the context of their day to day. Alcohol is a legal drug...it isn't ice cream or cookies.

    I didn't get she was moderating alchol for any reason other than calories. If that's the case saying one will have 5 drinks a week is no different than saying one will have a half cup of ice cream after dinner daily.
  • 33gail33
    33gail33 Posts: 1,155 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    NorthCascades wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    Good luck with that.

    I think if you are having to make deals with yourself and count drinks...



    I just quit altogether. Makes weight management and all of life so much easier.

    And, yeah. I used matchsticks. It didn't work.

    Would you also suggest eliminating ice cream or cookies, etc from the OP's diet if they enjoyed these items or moderate them in some way as she is proposing to do with alcohol?

    If somebody had a problem with them, where they've realized they're unable to moderate.

    In the case of the OP she is proposing "moderating" herself at 5 drinks a week. @cmriverside doesn't think moderating will help, if you have to moderate or "budget" should just quit entirely.

    If someone has to think about this that much and self negotiate, that is a red flag. People who naturally moderate or who can take it or leave it do not have to put this much effort into where to put the alcohol in the context of their day to day. Alcohol is a legal drug...it isn't ice cream or cookies.

    I think the difference is the OP seems to be moderating for calories only - not because they have a drinking problem. In that case I don't really see it as anything different than moderating certain foods.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,865 Member
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    NorthCascades wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    Good luck with that.

    I think if you are having to make deals with yourself and count drinks...



    I just quit altogether. Makes weight management and all of life so much easier.

    And, yeah. I used matchsticks. It didn't work.

    Would you also suggest eliminating ice cream or cookies, etc from the OP's diet if they enjoyed these items or moderate them in some way as she is proposing to do with alcohol?

    If somebody had a problem with them, where they've realized they're unable to moderate.

    In the case of the OP she is proposing "moderating" herself at 5 drinks a week. @cmriverside doesn't think moderating will help, if you have to moderate or "budget" should just quit entirely.

    If someone has to think about this that much and self negotiate, that is a red flag. People who naturally moderate or who can take it or leave it do not have to put this much effort into where to put the alcohol in the context of their day to day. Alcohol is a legal drug...it isn't ice cream or cookies.

    I think the difference is the OP seems to be moderating for calories only - not because they have a drinking problem. In that case I don't really see it as anything different than moderating certain foods.

    I don't want to speak for anyone else, but some people might be keying on this specific statement: "I’ve tried just fitting them into my calorie allotment and that works for awhile but then I find myself fitting them in each day, even when there is no room... like by eating less food that I should."

    While it's true that some people do this with ice cream and it's possible that OP likes alcohol the same way that someone like a tasty dessert, but it's also possible that this could be a sign that more is going on.

    Yes...because that was me for the last 8-9 years...
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    I feel like this is one of those topics that is impossible to answer with a blanket "yes" or "no" answer because the answer comes down to the nature of your relationship with alcohol, something that is an unknown to us right now.

    It can be totally true that using physical tokens to limit one's self could be a sign of a problematic relationship with alcohol that should be addressed. It could also be true that this could be an easy and fuss-free way to stay within your intended goal for drinks. For most people who have an issue with alcohol, I feel like this would be a very short-term solution that would probably break down quickly. If you're using physical tokens to whiteknuckle your way to a limit, I can't see that being successful.

    This. Personally, I'd say that if OP wants to try it and see how it works for her, I think that's a good idea. If there is an issue other than calorie management, that will become apparent, and if there's not, it may well work. I don't think that making personal rules about how to fit in something is necessarily the sign of a problem, but with alcohol I think sometimes it is (if it works and isn't stressful, then it's likely not).
  • Speakeasy76
    Speakeasy76 Posts: 961 Member
    Outside of the idea of whether or not alcohol use may be an issue if one has to moderate oneself with tokens or rewards, I personally steer away from using external motivators or rewards. I mean, we all have external motivators to do things--a lot of us go to work for the paycheck and wouldn't work for free, right? However, I feel that (at least for me), if I want a behavior to stick, I've gotta find some kind of internal motivation or drive. It may work short-term and maybe by doing this you can build up the internal motivation and not have to use the tokens.

    I also have a different perspective on using tokens, coming from a background of working with children with special needs and having kids of my own. It is quite common to use tokens or rewards to encourage behavior, although most newer research will say that even for kids using tokens can backfire--ESPECIALLY if there isn't a plan to decrease the use of them over time.
  • NorthCascades
    NorthCascades Posts: 10,968 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    NorthCascades wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    Good luck with that.

    I think if you are having to make deals with yourself and count drinks...



    I just quit altogether. Makes weight management and all of life so much easier.

    And, yeah. I used matchsticks. It didn't work.

    Would you also suggest eliminating ice cream or cookies, etc from the OP's diet if they enjoyed these items or moderate them in some way as she is proposing to do with alcohol?

    If somebody had a problem with them, where they've realized they're unable to moderate.

    In the case of the OP she is proposing "moderating" herself at 5 drinks a week. @cmriverside doesn't think moderating will help, if you have to moderate or "budget" should just quit entirely.

    None of us knows the OP, so most people are talking about themselves and hoping maybe some of it sounds familiar. I don't know if what she's describing will work for her or not. I was answering the question about what I would recommend to people.
  • middlehaitch
    middlehaitch Posts: 8,486 Member
    Try it, it may be effective it may not but you will never know until you try.

    (I am someone who enjoys a drink, almost daily, but am not alcohol dependent so probably don’t read the post the same as someone who may be/is.

    I also know what it is like to try and fit a drink into a deficit (and a pretty low maintenance) without compromising my nutritional needs and can see how this visual token/cue thing could work on a weekly basis.
    (Artist, visual person, what can I say)

    I couldn’t do an exercise for extra/carry over, I liked working on a weekly calorie goal. I am not a numbers person, so am a big KISSer.

    When losing/logging I logged a glass of wine and 2 cups of coffee daily. It was the only pre-logging I did. If I didn’t drink the wine, or coffee, I would have something else, or drink it later in the week, but I knew I had ‘my basics’ (nutrition) covered for the week.

    Got to say that, above, is a generalization, there were the odd weeks where calories were blown to the wind for an occasion, event, or cruise, but they were pre acknowledged.
    (I’m not a saint)

    Cheers, h.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    Speakeasy76 wrote: »
    Outside of the idea of whether or not alcohol use may be an issue if one has to moderate oneself with tokens or rewards, I personally steer away from using external motivators or rewards. I mean, we all have external motivators to do things--a lot of us go to work for the paycheck and wouldn't work for free, right? However, I feel that (at least for me), if I want a behavior to stick, I've gotta find some kind of internal motivation or drive. It may work short-term and maybe by doing this you can build up the internal motivation and not have to use the tokens.

    I also have a different perspective on using tokens, coming from a background of working with children with special needs and having kids of my own. It is quite common to use tokens or rewards to encourage behavior, although most newer research will say that even for kids using tokens can backfire--ESPECIALLY if there isn't a plan to decrease the use of them over time.

    I'm wondering about this as a general thing, and so am broadening the discussion beyond OP's approach (although I'll note that she's not "getting" tokens -- which presumably have no inherent value anyway -- from someone else, but using them as a way of keeping track for herself, so I am confused as to why they would be an external reward vs a way to enforce an internal motivation)?

    Beyond that, I can think of a lot of analogous examples that I would consider internal and, in any case, perfectly fine, so I bristle a bit at the idea that not using such trackers is inherently better. For example, for working out, I have a longterm plan and then a weekly schedule that I create each Sunday (it starts on Monday). I have a planned workout(s) per day, but know I might move them around depending on things I cannot control (I tend to adjust indoor vs outdoor workouts depending on weather or whether I can do think during the day vs night, etc.). I have a weekly checklist, and I check off each thing when I do it (I include things like closing the rings on my watch and my personal daily step goal). My motivation for all this is internal (no one else sees what I do), but it's satisfying to check things off and this adds incentive, as well as making it harder for me to not see if I'm doing less than planned.

    Same with logging, really: when losing, for example, I allowed myself ice cream after dinner if and only if I had the cals (and only within my cals). To me, that seems almost identical to the token thing.

    Before MFP, I used a plan for the week and write it down system at one time -- this was when I first started cooking a lot and was forming my understanding of what was healthy. I'd have servings of veg and check them off, and I'd have more dessert-type foods (fewer per week) and check them off. I realize that might sound obsessive and weird, but it wasn't anything other than internal motivation. It's more a way to visual things that otherwise we might need practice at or have trouble being mindful about. In fact, I'd call all these tricks to encourage mindfulness.

    I'm also not sure why eating/working out must be different from other things -- if I budget money for different uses and check it off and use that as a hard limit, no one would say that was an external motivator or reward and that it's better if I don't use anything outside my own head, would they?

    (I would agree that with some of these things over time the tricks might not be needed as mindfulness grows, although I think many of us may find such things helpful over time and that doesn't mean it's a failure or wrong.)
  • dragon_girl26
    dragon_girl26 Posts: 2,187 Member
    edited March 2021
    middlehaitch wrote: »
    Try it, it may be effective it may not but you will never know until you try.

    (I am someone who enjoys a drink, almost daily, but am not alcohol dependent so probably don’t read the post the same as someone who may be/is.

    I also know what it is like to try and fit a drink into a deficit (and a pretty low maintenance) without compromising my nutritional needs and can see how this visual token/cue thing could work on a weekly basis.
    (Artist, visual person, what can I say)

    I couldn’t do an exercise for extra/carry over, I liked working on a weekly calorie goal. I am not a numbers person, so am a big KISSer.

    When losing/logging I logged a glass of wine and 2 cups of coffee daily. It was the only pre-logging I did. If I didn’t drink the wine, or coffee, I would have something else, or drink it later in the week, but I knew I had ‘my basics’ (nutrition) covered for the week.

    Got to say that, above, is a generalization, there were the odd weeks where calories were blown to the wind for an occasion, event, or cruise, but they were pre acknowledged.
    (I’m not a saint)

    Cheers, h.

    This is pretty much me, too. I enjoy a 6 oz glass of wine (measured out carefully) or 1 beer most nights of the week with my dinner. That's not a hard and fast thing..sometimes I just don't want it..but I make it work within my calorie budget.

    Anyway, without knowing OP's relationship to alcohol, it seems a bit presumptuous for others here (not the poster I quoted above, just to be clear) to imply that there is more hidden beneath this question than what is on the surface. Perhaps OP will return and provide some insights.
  • hipari
    hipari Posts: 1,367 Member
    edited March 2021
    To the OP’s question: I haven’t used tokens in the exact way you describe, but once upon a time I set up a system where I had to pay myself double the cost of any self-classified ”junk food” item I wanted to buy, and put it in a piggy bank. So, if I wanted to buy a 3€ bag of chips, I’d have to come up with 6€ in cash and put it in my piggy bank. This was a physical act, similar to a token, I had to complete, and it somewhat worked for several reasons: It was a physical act that made me think about the choice, coming up with the physical cash was a pain in my behind, and paying 9€ for a bag of chips (6 to myself, 3 to the store) was pretty steep when I had quite low income.

    One calorie-saving notion about your token idea. You mention just ”drinks”, do you have a regular drink that’s your go to or is there a lot of variation? I’m asking because you said you want to use this for calorie management, and there’s quite a big calorie difference between, say, a frozen margarita and a glass of dry white wine.
  • Speakeasy76
    Speakeasy76 Posts: 961 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Speakeasy76 wrote: »
    Outside of the idea of whether or not alcohol use may be an issue if one has to moderate oneself with tokens or rewards, I personally steer away from using external motivators or rewards. I mean, we all have external motivators to do things--a lot of us go to work for the paycheck and wouldn't work for free, right? However, I feel that (at least for me), if I want a behavior to stick, I've gotta find some kind of internal motivation or drive. It may work short-term and maybe by doing this you can build up the internal motivation and not have to use the tokens.

    I also have a different perspective on using tokens, coming from a background of working with children with special needs and having kids of my own. It is quite common to use tokens or rewards to encourage behavior, although most newer research will say that even for kids using tokens can backfire--ESPECIALLY if there isn't a plan to decrease the use of them over time.

    I'm wondering about this as a general thing, and so am broadening the discussion beyond OP's approach (although I'll note that she's not "getting" tokens -- which presumably have no inherent value anyway -- from someone else, but using them as a way of keeping track for herself, so I am confused as to why they would be an external reward vs a way to enforce an internal motivation)?

    Beyond that, I can think of a lot of analogous examples that I would consider internal and, in any case, perfectly fine, so I bristle a bit at the idea that not using such trackers is inherently better. For example, for working out, I have a longterm plan and then a weekly schedule that I create each Sunday (it starts on Monday). I have a planned workout(s) per day, but know I might move them around depending on things I cannot control (I tend to adjust indoor vs outdoor workouts depending on weather or whether I can do think during the day vs night, etc.). I have a weekly checklist, and I check off each thing when I do it (I include things like closing the rings on my watch and my personal daily step goal). My motivation for all this is internal (no one else sees what I do), but it's satisfying to check things off and this adds incentive, as well as making it harder for me to not see if I'm doing less than planned.

    Same with logging, really: when losing, for example, I allowed myself ice cream after dinner if and only if I had the cals (and only within my cals). To me, that seems almost identical to the token thing.

    Before MFP, I used a plan for the week and write it down system at one time -- this was when I first started cooking a lot and was forming my understanding of what was healthy. I'd have servings of veg and check them off, and I'd have more dessert-type foods (fewer per week) and check them off. I realize that might sound obsessive and weird, but it wasn't anything other than internal motivation. It's more a way to visual things that otherwise we might need practice at or have trouble being mindful about. In fact, I'd call all these tricks to encourage mindfulness.

    I'm also not sure why eating/working out must be different from other things -- if I budget money for different uses and check it off and use that as a hard limit, no one would say that was an external motivator or reward and that it's better if I don't use anything outside my own head, would they?

    (I would agree that with some of these things over time the tricks might not be needed as mindfulness grows, although I think many of us may find such things helpful over time and that doesn't mean it's a failure or wrong.)

    After reading the OP"s post more thoroughly, I agree that her use of tokens is more of a visual tool to help her stay accountable, with the exception of earning additional tokens through more walking so she could earn another drink. When I see the word "tokens," I think of a traditional token system where one earns tokens for positive behavior, which he can then "trade in" for a larger reward. We tried implementing something like this for my son when he was younger, upon advice from his therapist at the time. It worked short-term, but long-term was something that was not sustainable.

    I don't see the tools you use for exercising, food or budgeting money as external motivators, actually. I see them more as tools for planning, staying on track and organized and holding yourself accountable. Those are strategies that work for you and are related to your goals that you are motivated to achieve for yourself, I assume. I see external motivation as anything that encourages someone to partake in a task that they don't really like, don't have any real reason to "do it for themselves," or don't find any joy or fulfillment out of it. It also might mean doing something to avoid punishment from someone. It can be tangible or intangible (like verbal praise or being "scolded" by by your boss in front of your coworkers for being late). It's often not directly related to the task at hand.

    I think we all use external motivators for things we don't necessarily want to do, and I don't see anything wrong with that. For example, I don't really like writing reports, so I'll tell myself if I work on one for XX amount of time, I can do something more enjoyable after that. I also don't need to do this every time, just when I need an extra boost.

    Some of us need more external motivation than others, and my son (11) is a perfect example of this. Due to his brain wiring, he has a very difficult time starting tasks that he finds "boring," "too difficult," something that will take too long, or generally just something that does not really interest him. As you can imagine, this can make school challenging, despite the fact that he is quite "booksmart." At the beginning of the school year, since he was doing at-home learning, I could monitor this. He constantly was going on YouTube instead of working, so I implemented a token system for a very specific behavior.
    I told him he'd earn a token every time I caught him actually doing his work . Each token earned him 5 minutes of video game time after school. This worked well, but we got to the point where we didn't need to do this (although if he weren't going back to full-time in-person learning, I may have to re-implement). If, instead, I used a visual checklist that he could check off every time he completed a task, I would consider this a tool to help him stay on task rather than an external motivator, even though checking off the items can be motivating in and of itself. I would think checking off the boxes could not only help keep him on task, but also help him develop a sense of accomplishment (internal motivation).


  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    Speakeasy76 wrote: »
    I don't see the tools you use for exercising, food or budgeting money as external motivators, actually. I see them more as tools for planning, staying on track and organized and holding yourself accountable. Those are strategies that work for you and are related to your goals that you are motivated to achieve for yourself, I assume.

    Yeah, I don't either, but I see them as in some ways similar to using tokens to check off drinks (or some other indulgence), so that's why I was confused about why you saw the tokens as external. I see we actually are largely in agreement.
    I see external motivation as anything that encourages someone to partake in a task that they don't really like, don't have any real reason to "do it for themselves," or don't find any joy or fulfillment out of it. It also might mean doing something to avoid punishment from someone. It can be tangible or intangible (like verbal praise or being "scolded" by by your boss in front of your coworkers for being late). It's often not directly related to the task at hand.

    I think we all use external motivators for things we don't necessarily want to do, and I don't see anything wrong with that. For example, I don't really like writing reports, so I'll tell myself if I work on one for XX amount of time, I can do something more enjoyable after that. I also don't need to do this every time, just when I need an extra boost.

    I agree, but have a somewhat more positive view. I think combining something I tend to make excuses not to do or put off with something I want to do can help build positive habits -- one example is saving a podcast I love for a long run that I might make excuses not to start. It may help get me out the door, but doing the run consistently helps me remember how good it feels once I get going and afterwards. But yes, sometimes it's a personal way of getting yourself through something that you have to do but don't want to.

    I do see a difference between an external motivator that is chosen and imposed by oneself vs one imposed by someone else who is trying to get you to do something, at least when it comes to your statement "if I want a behavior to stick, I've gotta find some kind of internal motivation or drive." I guess that's because if I try to figure out a way to motivate myself to do something (I dunno, say if I complete my workout schedule in its entirety for a month, I get to have a massage, or even the podcast thing again) I am inherently focused on building a habit and have in my mind why I want to do the thing, so I find that different than being given an incentive from someone else, which at least as an adult may or may not cause me to do the thing, but won't work to build a habit unless I choose to buy into it and add my own reasons and (maybe) motivators.

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