Game Changers

davew0000

Has anyone watched this? It makes a compelling case for vegan diets being better for athleticism and strength.

It is a documentary by MMA champion James Wilks.

It is perhaps guilty of bias in terms of its evidence and cases. It showcased vegan strongman Baboumian without recognising that Bjornsson eats a cow a day.

Still, Wilks going from 10 minutes to 1 hour on the battle ropes was quite a eye opener and I assume hard to fake.

It’s worth a watch. It certainly challenges the high meat protein diet view.

Sportertje354

Disclaimer haven't watch the docu yet, but have put it in planning, but this is just my experience with similar

Hmm, idk, remember Eddie Hall iirc saying something like that first time he tried something strongman related, he just took to it naturally and beat out anyone normal, so that there is some genetics or natural talent at play maybe

I was vegan/vegetarian for years, but after a rough surgery had to eat differently. Ate fish and eggs, no meats for years, and that packed on muscle. I kinda figured have you seen how strong bears are, completely non scientific maybe, but you know how u can get with that stuff

Started eating meat and chicken more recently, but I still limit it in diet, and fish too, but couldn't do without protein powder don't think

And you have to eat a lot, when u train a lot, and things like pasta and potatoes I used to eat a ton off, besides veggies, fruits, and alternatives

Also some meat replacements don't have to be healthy, like the amount of salt for example, tofu was a regular staple in my diet, like stir fry dishes

Having said that I am no where the strength of some of these strong men, no delusions about that whatsoever

So yeah there might be something too it, or maybe it is just him getting better too

One thing you have to ask what are the long term effects too, but that goes with any food, I have come to just focus on healthy and balanced and that is hard enough for me at times

And you have to keep things like allergies and medical condition and animal wellfare in mind too. Which iirc some vegetarian foods, by some companies are causing damage to the environment too. So eating things like biological meats and locally produced food like veggies may be more helpful, than just straight out vegan for moral reasons for example

AnnPT77

Odds that *superior* human performance results from eating in a way different from the way most humans have eaten for millennia, being shaped all that way by natural selection? Really low, if you ask me.

Clearly, fully plant based eating is entirely compatible with high athletic performance, with attention to good nutrition (not just adequate protein, but well-rounded nutrition in other respects). I strongly suspect that many, many people would benefit in both health and performance from increasing the quantity/variety of plant foods in their diets. (Most people in the US don't even get that minimal 5 daily servings of veggies/fruits that mainstream sources suggest, according to research . . . and there's starting to be some indication that more than 5 servings would be better.)

But a fully plant based diet *superior* for athletic performance? I'm a skeptic. Elite athletes (professional sports teams, elite athletes such as national team (Olympic) competitors) have the very best training and coaching available, and you'd better believe that their nutritional experts are up to date on the latest research. If vegan eating were superior, the overwhelming majority of those teams/athletes would be eating vegan. They're not. (A few are, and doing fine. Most are not, and they're doing fine, too.)

I've seen the nutrition recommendations for elite (national team) athletes in my sport, recommendations formulated by well-credentialed, respected experts: They don't tell everyone to be vegan. Since these are athletes trying to squeeze out every last 0.1% of potential competitive advantage, those nutritional experts would be advocating vegan eating if there were actual evidence it's *superior*, probably even if that evidence were suggestive but not definitive.

Before you decide I'm a shill for Big Meat: I've been vegetarian for 46+ years. There are excellent reasons to choose to be vegan, fully plant based, vegetarian. Superior athletic performance is not one of them. Plant-based eating is compatible with excellent health and athletic performance, but it's not required or superior.

Game Changers is not so much a documentary - in the sense of a comprehensive, objective examination - as an advocacy piece. Some of the producers are major investors in meat-replacement or other vegan-targeted products companies, using celebrities and sports stars in this film to promote something that will benefit them financially, even as the documentary criticizes other industries for doing the same thing. Like I said, lots of good reasons to eat less or no animal protein, so what they're advocating is a positive in many ways . . . but the strategy here seems hypocritical, absent full disclosure of potential conflicts of interest. Further, many of their featured speakers and interviewees have a financial stake in this advocacy, too.

For counterbalance, this is a good analysis of the science by a guy who's a PhD in nutritional science, well known as a strength/performance coach who uses evidence-based methods:

Video: https://youtu.be/R6Ju_HdWB0Y

Blog write-up, with ample footnotes: https://www.biolayne.com/articles/research/the-game-changers-review-a-scientific-analysis/

Obviously, just my opinion.

P.S. If my tone sounds irritable, I apologize. Not aiming it at you. It's a pet peeve of mine, as a long-term committed veg, when people put out biased, possibly misleading, propaganda-like advocacy content. I feel like when they do that, it makes all of us - including those who have good, reasonably-founded rationales for vegan/plant-based/vegetarian eating - look like idiots with at best low intellectual standards, at worst poor ethics/integrity. Ugh.

davew0000

Fair enough Ann. You’re quite right. Having Googled it (which I should’ve done before posting) I realise that it’s more than a little dodgy. He gives the impression he converted to vegan to aid his recovery from an injury but it seems he turned vegan before then.

The science seemed flaky all along (who thinks athletes eat protein for energy!?) but the testimonials from athletes turned vegan who suddenly started making significant progress was what I found more compelling.

If the battle ropes thing was a flat out lie, which him being vegan before his injury might suggest, well that seems straight up fraudulent.

AnnPT77

davew0000 wrote: »

Fair enough Ann. You’re quite right. Having Googled it (which I should’ve done before posting) I realise that it’s more than a little dodgy. He gives the impression he converted to vegan to aid his recovery from an injury but it seems he turned vegan before then.

The science seemed flaky all along (who thinks athletes eat protein for energy!?) but the testimonials from athletes turned vegan who suddenly started making significant progress was what I found more compelling.

If the battle ropes thing was a flat out lie, which him being vegan before his injury might suggest, well that seems straight up fraudulent.

No worries. People make performance improvements or athletic progress at various times for various reasons, so I wouldn't necessarily assume an outright lie. As an individual, it's pretty easy to see A happen, then B happen, and think A caused B, when the sequence was coincidence, the actual cause different.

I do suspect better nutrition (after a little bit of time) can contribute to progress (after all, there's a reason *why* the national teams have nutrition experts advising them, eh?). Like I said, eating more plant foods would potentially benefit any people who are eating too few of them. Also, anecdotally, some people here report better workouts with better carb intake, i.e., they need certain minimum levels of carbs to perform their best. Plant-based diets usually are high-ish carb, so there could be some benefit there, for some people. (I don't think it's universal, since some people seem to do fine athletically while keto/low carb.)

As an aside, protein can be used for energy, IMU, if the body doesn't have better purposes for it in context; but I agree that's unlikely to be the *reason* to consume it.

Personally, I prefer to keep protein intake on the higher side, even as a veg. At non-extreme levels, can't hurt, might help. It's also fairly common for sensible mainstream sources to suggest that plant-based eaters may be better off getting slightly *more* protein grams than animal-protein eaters, for reasons of essential amino acid completeness (EAA insurance policy, sort of). For me, another warning flag that I'm looking at vegan-advocacy info (or ignorance caused by those advocates in the blogosphere) is the argument that we don't have to worry about protein levels when eating plant based, because plants are Just That Healthy. Yeah, no. (Still just my opinion, though.)

Certainly, adequate protein (including EAA adequacy) is achievable entirely plant-based, with reasonable attention to it, so if people claim vegans can't get enough protein, or can't achieve high athletic performance, I figure I'm looking at ignorance/advocacy from the other side of the dispute. 😉

psuLemon

davew0000 wrote: »

Fair enough Ann. You’re quite right. Having Googled it (which I should’ve done before posting) I realise that it’s more than a little dodgy. He gives the impression he converted to vegan to aid his recovery from an injury but it seems he turned vegan before then.

The science seemed flaky all along (who thinks athletes eat protein for energy!?) but the testimonials from athletes turned vegan who suddenly started making significant progress was what I found more compelling.

If the battle ropes thing was a flat out lie, which him being vegan before his injury might suggest, well that seems straight up fraudulent.

This is equivalent to when ketogenic first became popular. Even a few athletes switched to "improve their performance". Guess how many stayed and continue to follow the keto diet? None. You will similarly see this with those athletes following a plant based diet. Most have gone back to a conventional nutrient dense, high protein diet with meat. Why? Meat is a better source of protein, so you need less. The bioavailability of protein in plants is inferior.

Can you be a plant based elite or keto athlete? Yes. But it's only a handful that will do it and generally only off season.

For non elite athletes, is fine. Do what you like and push hard.