Mental Health and Weight Loss: The Right Balance
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I really appreciate everyone's comments. I have been looking through other threads and comments from the Gurus here at MFP. I have a sense that the standard "party line" is that one should side-step the temptation to delve into mental health issues and just swim on the surface of the simplistic (yet difficult to implement for some) the rules of the weight management game. Count your calories, be honest with your food log and work withn the framework of the mathematics of CICO. No real attention to the type of calories (are they all really the same)? and no real thought to what barriers might exist in the minds of people who eat regardless of the impacts and at the same time reach out of help and strategies that might make their life easier. Although I value the time spend by the "experts", do they really help when the issues may not be about the repetitive references to the science of weight management and obvious steps everyone thinks we should follow. I may sound a bit down about the help but sometimes it just seems so futile. (or maybe that is just mean).
I think you need to look at more threads
Some posters are told again and again and again over multiple threads by multiple people to get professional help. I try to stay out of or at least not respond to certain posters because I am very frustrated by their refusal to get professional help and am aware that this is triggering me.
Probably those who you are labeling "experts" I refer to as "regulars." The way you are using "expert" includes some presumption of responsibility, which is not the case here. People with high post counts do not consider themselves "gurus" - they are just people who enjoy the forums.
I understand that you have the impression that many posters are saying that "CICO is King." I had that impression when I first joined these forums as well. However, after reading multiple posts by the same people over time I realized that no one thinks nutrition and satiety aren't important.13 -
I would like to respond to the last insert (pengionmam...)I respect your opinion and you have correctly described your tendency to be perceived as offensive if/when you imply "learned helplessness" or "hyper-sensitivity" when one is expressing frustration/disappointment with the simplicity of responses to complex challenges inherent in weight management platforms. I am aware that you have only made one contribution to this embryonic thread and I would encourage you to offer further thoughts as you open your mind to the possibility that you could be more flexible in your analysis of my position and stated concerns. Claiming that the "science" of nutrition provides the excuse for simplifying or over-simplifying the reasons for weight gain and the strategies for the contrary continue the misleading tendency to ignore what happens in the minds of many individuals with real struggles in the paradigm.
Learned helpless was used incorrectly in your comments as this (rather dated) psychological principle refers to a "no-win" outcome regardless of how an individual performs a task since the outcome is pre-ordained or predetermined by an external force (Seligman & Maier, 1967;Overmier & Seligman, 1967).. In the studies in which "learned helplessness" was discussed, one group of dogs was given repeated, inescapable shocks while restrained. I'm not sure how my challenges with working through my eating issues relate to this concept.
I think it would be more apt to say that a persistent type of Depression might explain why it is difficult to muster both the motivation and the flexible thinking required to change patterns and initiate more positive responses to change. I am working on this and have made progress. I would just like to acknowledge the effort(s) required rather than attribute the success to following science. That is obvious. What is less obvious and more to the point are the internal battles that need to be waged; and not due to the "sages" that proselytize the gospel of CICI. Rather it is a function of a more positive state of mental health which requires courage and support.
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southkonahi wrote: »
For thought, why is it that people are more willing to look inward to life's problems/situations when figuring out why they smoke cigarettes, than they are when they are trying to figure out why they allow themselves to eat too many calories?One question that has really challenged me over the years is whether mental health factors link directly to how we create, establish, maintain and worry about how heavy we are.
That's not what I did. I looked at smoking as a bad habit which was inconvenient and expensive, and quit.
I didn't find looking inward helpful in managing my excessive drinking. I went to one Smart Recovery Meeting and one Rational Recovery meeting, applied the CBT techniques I learned there, and stopped self-medicating with alcohol. Taking up yoga earlier and continuing with it was also really helpful. (I had tried AA previously, and continued to go over the years with family and friends, and did not find this model helpful to me at all.)
I find not overeating a lot more challenging, as I cannot simply completely abstain from food. Sure, I no longer knock back pints of Ben & Jerry's, but my Addictive Voice finds other ways to get in excessive calories.
However, in December I switched around my macros, created better discipline and habits around logging, and my Happy Scale trend when set on Year is all green.7 -
I would like to respond to the last insert (pengionmam...)I respect your opinion and you have correctly described your tendency to be perceived as offensive if/when you imply "learned helplessness" or "hyper-sensitivity" when one is expressing frustration/disappointment with the simplicity of responses to complex challenges inherent in weight management platforms. I am aware that you have only made one contribution to this embryonic thread and I would encourage you to offer further thoughts as you open your mind to the possibility that you could be more flexible in your analysis of my position and stated concerns. Claiming that the "science" of nutrition provides the excuse for simplifying or over-simplifying the reasons for weight gain and the strategies for the contrary continue the misleading tendency to ignore what happens in the minds of many individuals with real struggles in the paradigm.
Learned helpless was used incorrectly in your comments as this (rather dated) psychological principle refers to a "no-win" outcome regardless of how an individual performs a task since the outcome is pre-ordained or predetermined by an external force (Seligman & Maier, 1967;Overmier & Seligman, 1967).. In the studies in which "learned helplessness" was discussed, one group of dogs was given repeated, inescapable shocks while restrained. I'm not sure how my challenges with working through my eating issues relate to this concept.
I think it would be more apt to say that a persistent type of Depression might explain why it is difficult to muster both the motivation and the flexible thinking required to change patterns and initiate more positive responses to change. I am working on this and have made progress. I would just like to acknowledge the effort(s) required rather than attribute the success to following science. That is obvious. What is less obvious and more to the point are the internal battles that need to be waged; and not due to the "sages" that proselytize the gospel of CICI. Rather it is a function of a more positive state of mental health which requires courage and support.
Learned helplessness research didn't stop with the dogs in the 60's
I think the point of not falling into the trap of learned helplessness when it comes to weight loss is extremely valid. Many times, people believe they cannot lose weight because they are older, or perimenopausal, or post-menopausal, or they have PCOS, or their anti-depressant is associated with weight gain, and on and on and on. Holding these myths as truths can cause someone to give up.
There is more I want to say on this but my sleep meds have kicked in and I need to stop now.11 -
Just wondering if relying on "heavy sleep medication" might be an example of learned helplessness. After all, we have the capacity to sleep and babies do not need to learn this. Perhaps, it is a sign of giving up on going to sleep naturally. Just saying.
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....Or, the application of the concept is (yet again) simplistic and does not account for the ways in which are circadian cycles are altered during our lives. The sleep experts, not unlike the weight management gurus, might offer easy to understand strategies for resuming "normal" or typical sleeping patterns. Tell that to someone with persistent insomnia and note how frustrated he/she may feel knowing what the "science" says but experiencing the sheer frustration with application.
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I suspect that the mistaken application of the principle of learned helplessness isn't want you mean. Consider using the more accurate application of :"victim consciousness" which makes more sense and is more in keeping with the tendency for people to perceive a loss of power and control when in fact one has absolute jurisdiction over what he/she puts in his/her mouth. Having said that, I wonder why it is that individuals with severe eating disorders such as Anorexia Nervosa have the least favourable response to treatment in the entire world of mental health disorders? Not because of learned helplessness
.I think we have to be careful and respectful with our terminology and our tendencies to blame people who are already struggling. But that may be a bridge too far for the people who know everything.1 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I would like to respond to the last insert (pengionmam...)I respect your opinion and you have correctly described your tendency to be perceived as offensive if/when you imply "learned helplessness" or "hyper-sensitivity" when one is expressing frustration/disappointment with the simplicity of responses to complex challenges inherent in weight management platforms. I am aware that you have only made one contribution to this embryonic thread and I would encourage you to offer further thoughts as you open your mind to the possibility that you could be more flexible in your analysis of my position and stated concerns. Claiming that the "science" of nutrition provides the excuse for simplifying or over-simplifying the reasons for weight gain and the strategies for the contrary continue the misleading tendency to ignore what happens in the minds of many individuals with real struggles in the paradigm.
Learned helpless was used incorrectly in your comments as this (rather dated) psychological principle refers to a "no-win" outcome regardless of how an individual performs a task since the outcome is pre-ordained or predetermined by an external force (Seligman & Maier, 1967;Overmier & Seligman, 1967).. In the studies in which "learned helplessness" was discussed, one group of dogs was given repeated, inescapable shocks while restrained. I'm not sure how my challenges with working through my eating issues relate to this concept.
I think it would be more apt to say that a persistent type of Depression might explain why it is difficult to muster both the motivation and the flexible thinking required to change patterns and initiate more positive responses to change. I am working on this and have made progress. I would just like to acknowledge the effort(s) required rather than attribute the success to following science. That is obvious. What is less obvious and more to the point are the internal battles that need to be waged; and not due to the "sages" that proselytize the gospel of CICI. Rather it is a function of a more positive state of mental health which requires courage and support.
Learned helplessness research didn't stop with the dogs in the 60's
I think the point of not falling into the trap of learned helplessness when it comes to weight loss is extremely valid. Many times, people believe they cannot lose weight because they are older, or perimenopausal, or post-menopausal, or they have PCOS, or their anti-depressant is associated with weight gain, and on and on and on. Holding these myths as truths can cause someone to give up.
There is more I want to say on this but my sleep meds have kicked in and I need to stop now.
Yes, this is the kind of thing I was thinking. My response (did threads get merged here because now it looks like I replied twice? I can't remember anymore!) still holds, I think, even (maybe especially) with OP's reply to me. I'm not sure it would be very useful for me to go on much more. I can only speak to my own feelings and experiences. I feel a little bit like I'm being asked to walk into a trap that's been set, only I don't know precisely where it is.
Perhaps, to be blunt, and accept that some just won't like it, I think there are reasons and there are excuses. Part of my own journey has been to realize that I can't control everything, but I can control more than I initially believed about my own behavior even in adverse circumstances. I can spend all the time I like thinking about systemic injustices and studying how brains work and so on, but at some point there's a switch that needs to be flipped that translates all that knowledge and planning into action. Maybe that's exactly what this thread is about - it seems to go off in many directions, which I get because it's a complicated question. I'm still having a hard time pinning down exactly what the objection is to what I said, because I really don't understand it.
You can be really, really smart and still have options and ideas you haven't considered. My suggesting an idea that perhaps you hadn't considered isn't a swipe at you, but just food for thought. I found it useful when someone pointed it out to me. If it isn't useful to you, you are free to disregard it with no ill will on my part. 11 -
So I was actually thinking about this in the shower, heh, and I think where I initially was getting hung up is actually in the thread title. I read it as saying that mental health and weight loss are somehow in opposition to each other. I agree that they do have a relationship, but not that they are opposed. If that is your assertion, then I would guess we're dealing with a fundamental disagreement about what mental health is, which is unlikely to be resolved on the thread. But if I've misunderstood, then we can probably find some common language to discuss it.2
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Just wondering if relying on "heavy sleep medication" might be an example of learned helplessness. After all, we have the capacity to sleep and babies do not need to learn this. Perhaps, it is a sign of giving up on going to sleep naturally. Just saying.
Oh, I wasn't referring to Ambien or anything like that. In fact, I definitely consider it a natural solution.
I'll own that I should have put "sleep meds" in quotes and have erased my original response.
You seem determined to pick a fight, which I find odd in a thread about mental health. I suggest that you own that and either dial it back or we can request that this thread be moved to Debate.17 -
The bible talks about transformation and how it happens by the renewing of one's mind. I echo it and will say, without a driven, determined and goal oriented mindset...healthy weightloss wont happen.1
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Hi everyone,
Apologies if I became a bit defensive/argumentative. I do appreciate that people come from a "good" place when reflecting on the very personal pursuits of improving mental and physical health. We share our stories in order to enlighten others and create new possibilities when the old pathways seem stale and f utile. I appreciate the degree to which people choose to be vulnerable and open with experiences and ideas and if I in any way demonstrated a lack of respect my apologies. There are facts which are undisputed with regards to both mental health and weight loss and there are also subjective/qualitative points of view that reflect the opinions and beliefs we develop over time. Perhaps, it is wise (saying this to myself) to listen more carefully and be a student/learner rather than an antagonistic "know it all" as I am struggling with how to find the balance between healthy thinking and feeling and appropriate self-management and self-regulation with regards to food and general eating behaviours. Thanks for your patients and thoughtful responses and I will work on separating emotion from cognitions so that the thread is safe and enjoyable for everyone.
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The bible talks about transformation and how it happens by the renewing of one's mind. I echo it and will say, without a driven, determined and goal oriented mindset...healthy weightloss wont happen.
Hmmm . . . yet here I am, a hedonistic, heathen, aging hippie type, not even remotely driven, marginally determined, and generally not goal oriented, yet in year 5+ at a healthy weight, strong & quite healthy at age 65 to all signs, after several previous decades of obesity and bad health markers.
It's almost as if people vary, and different approaches work for different people. 😉
I'm glad, sincerely, that you've found what works for you. 🙂 I'm sure it will work for some others, too. Good show!
(I do think that a cognitive tendency to frame overweight/unfitness as an insurmountably complex challenge, or a result mainly of powerful external forces (like, say, food products' marketing) . . . can be a counter-force to success. That framing is not insurmountable, but may potentially be an extra, mainly self-imposed burden.)9 -
Relationship between diet and mental health is really complex. Our diet can affect our brain in many ways. Like taking a lots of vegetables, seafood, fresh herbs, garlic, olive oil, cereal and grains) supplemented with fish oil can reduce the symptoms of depression.1
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There is a definite link between gut health and brain health that has now been established. It wouldn't be too surprising that those of us who suffer from gut issues also have mental health issues (like myself--anxiety). I'm hoping that there is more research being done in this area. There are probably some foods that can cause gut/brain issues for most people who are prone to them, but I think, like anything else, it is much more individualized. What may cause problems for one person may be perfectly fine for another.
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Down day..... It all seems a bit pointless to start a new way of eating/behaving. I will most likely break my own rules and make things worse. I feel like giving up .
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So after reading through this thread, I'm not sure what's being sought after here - science-backed discourse about the role mental health plays with regards to weight/physical health, or personal stories from people who are also struggling? Since this isn't the debate section, I'll go with the latter.
I'm on my third major attempt at weight loss. The first time I was an extremely depressed teenager who resorted to anorexia and self-harm to cope, and I had to treat the depression with medicine to overcome the eating issues. I went from a healthy weight to an unhealthy weight, then re-established a healthy weight. In college I gained about 20 lbs from being more sedentary, every single meal being a buffet, and not knowing enough about nutrition to make good choices. This pushed me to very top of the normal BMI range, and after college I decided to lose the weight. I was unhappy with how I looked, but my unhappiness was deeply reinforced by how my boyfriend treated me. I'd spend hours working out just to be away from him, and while I pretended I was losing weight healthily, I was also purging after any indulgences. I lost 30 lbs, and then I dumped the boyfriend. Turns out that I don't abuse my body with disordered eating when I'm not suffering emotional abuse.
Being really fit brought on some really scary attention, including stalking and sexual assault. So when my back pain started to prevent me from working out and the weight slowly crept back on, I didn't really mind. I didn't intentionally eat my way into a protective weight, but I was pretty darn happy when comments on my body stopped altogether. I got up into the overweight range. So... here I am now. I think I want to get back down to my fit weight, but I'm not really acting like it. I've only lost 10 lbs in 5 months. I have pretty bad bouts of depression each month linked to my cycle, and that tends to derail me for a few days because I don't feel like exercising at all and I make more indulgent food choices. I started drinking a lot more due to physical pain, and now I'm questioning if I need to address a dependence. And I am genuinely afraid of the harassment I might get if I'm 30 lbs lighter. But I also want to be fit, healthy, capable, and not hate how I look in photos so much that I avoid them altogether. So I'm just going to take this one day at a time, go easy on myself on bad days, push forward on days I feel motivated, and see where I end up.
I do think it's incredibly important for people to address their traumas, treat their mental illnesses properly, do their best to put themselves in healthy environments, and have patience and grace with themselves if they're going to achieve a healthy weight long-term. I don't think anyone on MFP should be diagnosing or "treating" other forum members when it comes to mental health. That's far above our pay grade. The best I can do is share my story and hope it helps someone else feel less alone.17 -
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