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Trying out a new info-graphic: How fast can I safely lose weight?

2

Replies

  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »
    @frankwbrown suggests a 3lb/week loss rate for a 300lb person. I think 3lbs per week is too high a rate for just about any weight. For an average male, that would be a 54% deficit relative to sedentary TDEE. Yikes!
    I don't disagree. That 3 lb/week is 1% of body weight for a 300 lb person, and I chose 3% of excess weight arbitrarily, so that the example had 3% of excess weight as the same 3 lb/week. This sort of underscores the idea that the general suggestion of 1% of body weight (max) applies more to people in the 100-200 lb range, rather than extremely obese people, for whom even 1% of body weight is probably excessive.
    It happens that I started my weight loss in July of last year at 330 lbs (over 50% body fat). I chose 2 lb/week, hoping I could lose close to 100 pounds in one year. I currently weigh 237 and am now looking at adopting an alternating maint/slow loss plan. I think I should be able to get down to 220, but that will likely take quite some time.
    Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »
    It seems several people advocate a slower loss rate when closer to goal weight. I think this is entirely reasonable, if you want. I have personally lost around 20lbs at a rate of about 1lb/week, which is almost exactly a 25% deficit for me. Some weeks I actually went faster than that by under-eating my exercise bonus. When I need a little correction, I'll go back into ~25% deficit for a few weeks.
    I like the idea of using x% deficit of TDEE. My problem is determining my TDEE.
    Mifflin-St Jeor estimates my BMR at around 1850, but the result of an RMR test I had done was only 1907. I think I have a lower than average BMR for someone my size, age, etc. I also think my Garmin watch overestimates my calories burned.
    If I tell MFP I want to lose 1 lb/week and am sedentary, it gives me a net calories consumed/day of 1850. So I assume MFP thinks I burn ~2350 calories/day, without exercise.

    Thank you all for the information you're sharing here. I really appreciate it.

    I think the prior post with examples shows the 1% at almost goal weight isn't a good idea either.

    150 lbs and need to lose 10 - 1.5 lb weekly deficit?

    If starting at 10 lbs to lose - perhaps doable, but if you had lost 100 already and down to that amount - tad fast.

    I like your 3% method better.

    Oh, your RMR (awake but resting) should be higher than your BMR by a bit - that doesn't sound off too bad.
    Using a common conversion from RMR to BMR, calculated BMR would be about 1751.
    So about 100 less than Mifflin BMR.

    Had you been in a diet when you got RMR test? Sounds like it, so to be expected.
  • frankwbrown
    frankwbrown Posts: 13,069 Member
    corinasue1143 wrote: »
    So, some examples...
    1. current weight 300 pounds with excess weight of 100 pounds:
      1% of current weight = 1% x 300 = 3.0 lbs/wk
      3% of excess weight = 3% x 100 = 3.0 lbs/wk
    2. current weight 200 pounds with excess weight of 20 pounds:
      1% of current weight = 1% x 200 = 2.0 lbs/wk
      3% of excess weight = 3% x 20 = 0.6 lbs/wk
    3. current weight 150 pounds with excess weight of 30 pounds:
      1% of current weight = 1% x 150 = 1.5 lbs/wk
      3% of excess weight = 3% x 30 = 0.9 lbs/wk
    4. current weight 150 pounds with excess weight of 15 pounds:
      1% of current weight = 1% x 150 = 1.5 lbs/wk
      3% of excess weight = 3% x 15 = 0.45 lbs/wk

    According to this, I could lose 2.2 or 2.1 pounds/week...
    Shiver me timbers! Please don't put any weight (pun intended) in my examples. 🙄😂
  • frankwbrown
    frankwbrown Posts: 13,069 Member
    edited August 2021
    heybales wrote: »
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »
    @frankwbrown suggests a 3lb/week loss rate for a 300lb person. I think 3lbs per week is too high a rate for just about any weight. For an average male, that would be a 54% deficit relative to sedentary TDEE. Yikes!
    I don't disagree. That 3 lb/week is 1% of body weight for a 300 lb person, and I chose 3% of excess weight arbitrarily, so that the example had 3% of excess weight as the same 3 lb/week. This sort of underscores the idea that the general suggestion of 1% of body weight (max) applies more to people in the 100-200 lb range, rather than extremely obese people, for whom even 1% of body weight is probably excessive.
    It happens that I started my weight loss in July of last year at 330 lbs (over 50% body fat). I chose 2 lb/week, hoping I could lose close to 100 pounds in one year. I currently weigh 237 and am now looking at adopting an alternating maint/slow loss plan. I think I should be able to get down to 220, but that will likely take quite some time.
    Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »
    It seems several people advocate a slower loss rate when closer to goal weight. I think this is entirely reasonable, if you want. I have personally lost around 20lbs at a rate of about 1lb/week, which is almost exactly a 25% deficit for me. Some weeks I actually went faster than that by under-eating my exercise bonus. When I need a little correction, I'll go back into ~25% deficit for a few weeks.
    I like the idea of using x% deficit of TDEE. My problem is determining my TDEE.
    Mifflin-St Jeor estimates my BMR at around 1850, but the result of an RMR test I had done was only 1907. I think I have a lower than average BMR for someone my size, age, etc. I also think my Garmin watch overestimates my calories burned.
    If I tell MFP I want to lose 1 lb/week and am sedentary, it gives me a net calories consumed/day of 1850. So I assume MFP thinks I burn ~2350 calories/day, without exercise.

    Thank you all for the information you're sharing here. I really appreciate it.

    I think the prior post with examples shows the 1% at almost goal weight isn't a good idea either.

    150 lbs and need to lose 10 - 1.5 lb weekly deficit?

    If starting at 10 lbs to lose - perhaps doable, but if you had lost 100 already and down to that amount - tad fast.

    I like your 3% method better.
    That suggestion was an attempt to address my suspicion that someone close to their goal might be better advised to plan on losing less than 1% of their body weight, and maybe even less than 1 lb/week. Hence, my example of "weight:150; weight to lose:15" shows that even 3% of "weight to lose" is less than 1% of current weight (i.e. 1.5 lb/wk).
    As for "10 lbs to lose" vs "lost 100 already", I wonder how long would one need to go on maintenance, after having lost 100 lbs, to erase that difference?
    heybales wrote: »
    Oh, your RMR (awake but resting) should be higher than your BMR by a bit - that doesn't sound off too bad.
    Using a common conversion from RMR to BMR, calculated BMR would be about 1751.
    So about 100 less than Mifflin BMR.

    Had you been in a diet when you got RMR test? Sounds like it, so to be expected.
    Yes, I was nine months into my weight loss, and I had lost ~63 lbs at that point. Coincidently, I was experiencing a plateau around that time.
    My average resting HR dropped from 64 bpm last year to around 51-52 bpm in March when I had the RMR test. I had been assuming this was an indication that my cardiovascular system was improving due to my significant aerobic exercise. Now, I wonder if it wasn't, at least in part, the result of metabolic adaptation.
    That said, I've essentially been on maintenance for about a month now, and my resting HR is still 51 bpm.

  • scarlett_k
    scarlett_k Posts: 812 Member
    tinkerbellang83 wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    MargaretYakoda wrote: »
    I find both to be a little confusing.

    First @Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Colored backgrounds are more difficult for some people to read. I would stick with plain black and white. Your chosen font is clear, and sans serif, which is a plus.
    IMO, the examples at the bottom aren’t needed.

    My comment will let others address the math, except to suggest that when creating a graphic for the general population, aiming for a 5th grade math and reading level helps with the general population actually understanding what you’re trying to get across. Algebra, when used, should be expressed in very simple terms.
    Editing to say I don’t mean a short mathematical equation. I mean specific written instructions, along with the equation.

    As for the one @cmriverside shared?
    It’s definitely at an accessible reading level. This is good.
    However, the background is a kitten nightmare. Very very visually distracting. Hard for some dyslexic people, and those with other processing disorders.
    I know the website at the top left is to give credit for the graphic, but personally I don’t like the vibe behind “exercise not extra fries”
    It goes against my philosophy of “no bad foods, only unwise portions”.

    My 2¢

    Also cilantro tastes like soap.

    Amen to aiming for a 5th grade math and reading level for the general population. We see so many people very confused in their first post.

    As such, I see no point in bringing TDEE up in the initial graphic, ESPECIALLY since MFP uses NEAT, not TDEE.

    I think “exercise not EXTRA fries” aligns perfectly with your philosophy of “no bad foods, only unwise portions” :)

    If someone wants to make a version of this graphic without the potentially distracting background I will happily use that instead.

    @tinkerbellang83: did the graphic originally come from you, on your IG? If so, would you please share the source of the data? (You may have just made a graphic out of the info that was previously commonly shared in text form. I prefer the graphic - it stands out.)

    Yes it was one of several I put together from commonly shared information here /general nutrition advice a couple of years ago. It comes in handy when you're responding to a lot of new folk particularly at the start of the year when everyone wants to lose 30lbs in a week, so I don't have to copy/paste stuff from thread to thread.

    So the popular graphic also has no basis beyond "common knowledge" or "general advice" either? Interesting. Seems to be a pattern on MFP. Repeat things enough in a way people think "oh yeah that looks/sounds legit" and they become accepted as "the truth".

    Don't believe everything you read on the internet, folks, even if it is presented to you in a palatable way. Question everything!
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,522 Member
    @tinkerbellang83 : I really like that graphic! I wonder if I could add in the %TDEE as a comment (although it's already pretty info-packed).

    @frankwbrown : Your story is inspiring! You are rather an expert, having applied this so successfully. Thank you so much for you comments. I wish you continued success.

    You ask a great question: "As for "10 lbs to lose" vs "lost 100 already", I wonder how long would one need to go on maintenance, after having lost 100 lbs, to erase that difference?"

    No one really knows the answer to this question, but I can tell you that the last time I dropped 22lbs (several years ago), I went on maintenance for a year to make sure I didn't gain it back (after may failures). After about 8 months, it seemed like I had it reasonably in hand. But I still need to go into deficit regularly to keep within a 5lb band, so maybe the answer is "never."
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,522 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    But once again, jthan, Myfitnesspal doesn't use TDEE, so you making an infographic to explain TDEE is just muddying the waters. If someone wants to figure out their TDEE, they will. This site just doesn't use it in its calculations so why make an infographic about it? If you do, make sure to write in huge letters that it's an alternate idea.

    I mean, this is the biggest misunderstanding on this site.

    The statement that MFP uses NEAT not TDEE is a bit nuanced. For those who don't understand these terms:

    RMR: Resting Metabolic Rate, the number of calories you would burn in a day in a comatose state

    NEAT: Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis, the number of additional daily calories you burn due to non-exercise activities

    EAT: Exercise Activity Thermogenesis. Additional calories due to workouts. There are other names for this, including just "Exercise calories"

    TDEE: Total Daily Energy Expenditure. The sum of above, TDEE = RMR + NEAT + EAT. You can compute this for a single day or you can compute an average over many days.

    MFC uses the formula in @tinkerbellang83's infographic to come up with your plan. This can be thought of as either your RMR + NEAT, if you want to add in for workouts separately, or it can be thought of as your mean TDEE, if you don't want to add in for workouts.

    What's my point? It's that MFP is totally flexible in how you want to use their plan number. You could use it as your TDEE.
  • mph323
    mph323 Posts: 3,565 Member
    I prefer @tinkerbellang83 's chart for general use in helping people see how MFP works and how to understand calorie and weight loss goals, so I think it's the right one for questions involving basic setup and questions about how weight loss works in the context of this app. I believe the discussion there should center on NEAT and not stray into TDEE which is confusing for anyone who just wants to use the app as designed. Most people don't need to know the actual formula or sources MFP uses behind the user interface.

    I think @Jthanmyfitnesspal 's chart is great for discussions that go beyond just using the app as designed (there are many), when people are looking for a more in-depth discussion of the science behind weight management models and differences in how to calculate goals when the app is too restrictive or generic for what they want to do.

  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,380 Member
    edited August 2021
    Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    But once again, jthan, Myfitnesspal doesn't use TDEE, so you making an infographic to explain TDEE is just muddying the waters. If someone wants to figure out their TDEE, they will. This site just doesn't use it in its calculations so why make an infographic about it? If you do, make sure to write in huge letters that it's an alternate idea.

    I mean, this is the biggest misunderstanding on this site.

    The statement that MFP uses NEAT not TDEE is a bit nuanced. For those who don't understand these terms:

    RMR: Resting Metabolic Rate, the number of calories you would burn in a day in a comatose state

    NEAT: Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis, the number of additional daily calories you burn due to non-exercise activities

    EAT: Exercise Activity Thermogenesis. Additional calories due to workouts. There are other names for this, including just "Exercise calories"

    TDEE: Total Daily Energy Expenditure. The sum of above, TDEE = RMR + NEAT + EAT. You can compute this for a single day or you can compute an average over many days.

    MFC uses the formula in @tinkerbellang83's infographic to come up with your plan. This can be thought of as either your RMR + NEAT, if you want to add in for workouts separately, or it can be thought of as your mean TDEE, if you don't want to add in for workouts.

    What's my point? It's that MFP is totally flexible in how you want to use their plan number. You could use it as your TDEE.

    I'm not saying it's true for all TDEE calculators, but IME MFP's base calorie estimation uses slightly different activity multipliers for each description than at least some of the TDEE estimators use for the similar-label activity description, I presume because it's estimating something slightly different.

    Based on that, if there's a thread where someone wants the same calorie goal every day irrespective of exercise, I suggest they use a TDEE calculator to estimate a goal.

    Personally, in those cases, I recommend either https://www.sailrabbit.com/bmr/ (because it's multi-formula, has more levels and better descriptions than some others, despite having a busy and therefore confusing user interface), or even better Heybales' "Just TDEE Please" spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1G7FgNzPq3v5WMjDtH0n93LXSMRY_hjmzNTMJb3aZSxM/edit?usp=sharing .

    But that's just me.

    As an aside: I don't agree that MFP's estimate "can be thought of as your mean TDEE, if you don't want to add in for workouts", for a person who actually does workouts, or that in that scenario "You could use it as your TDEE." Intentionally underestimating TDEE by ignoring exercise is not actually estimating TDEE. Yes, someone can use it to set their goal, but it's not their TDEE, by definition.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    MFP switched their activity multipliers many years ago based on much more recent WHO info based on studies.
    I have this in some notes:
    (based on studies from WHO in 1985, and Durnin, Passmore in 1967, and Bubb, Martin, Howley 1985)

    The other TDEE calcs are almost always based on the Harris study from 1919 from whence the BMR formula came - both are outdate IMHO and BMR has been updated with several better models.

    The guy with sailrabbit from MFP years ago (perhaps still is) was good for discussion in some group when I was doing the big spreadsheet. Someone said turning the info into an app, perhaps that site was the result, but it is much better than other sites.
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,522 Member
    @AnnPT77 : Thanks for your interesting posts. I'm glad you had the extra time to do that! I totally agree that people aren't talking about deficit as a % of TDEE. I just think they should. I'm trying to be a trend-setter.

    @sijomial : I don't really like the term "TDEE method." I might use the phrase "fixed-calorie method," or something. My point is that, whether you specifically account for workouts or not, you are always trying to estimate TDEE. I also point out that the activity factor that multiplies the M st. J BMR formula is intended specifically to estimate TDEE. MFP let's you use it as such or, if you choose, add in specifically for workouts (to get TDEE). I'm not sure what's so complicated about that.

    (Users don't ever have to learn the terms BMR, EAT, NEAT, or TDEE in order to use the site, which is good.)
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,426 Member
    MFP let's you use it as such or, if you choose, add in specifically for workouts (to get TDEE). I'm not sure what's so complicated about that

    What do you mean? I don't believe this is true unless you manipulate your activity level here on MFP, like I had to do.


    If I used my *actual* Activity Level (Lightly Active, using the parameters given in the Goals section) I get way too few calories - like 500 too few. So I am set to "Active" and I still eat past that on a regular basis because I know from logging food for 13 years that the setting of "Active" is still too low for me. I don't believe that can be fixed by knowing anything other than my own specific user-experience which includes my own style of logging food and exercise. I do use a food scale for nearly everything but I also just use a flat 300 calories per hour of moderate exercise. I'm sure some days I over estimate exercise calories and some days under estimate. I am also a hypothryroid post menopausal woman (on levothyroxine, well managed.) So...those are my disclaimers.

    I suppose it could be argued that I am using TDEE. Or it could be argued that I'm a Special Snowflake and the calculations are just flat wrong. I choose to believe the latter. However, I learned how to use this site the way it's designed to be used in the beginning and then worked out all the rest.

    Everyone has to do their own experiment, jthan. Some people even manually set their own calories. That's also something I do.

    Just don't confuse the MFP calculations without a big explanation...and so far your explanations come up lacking. Your graphic still doesn't make sense when taken in the context of this site's design calculation.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,809 Member
    I don't find what you are saying complicated to understand - I just disagree with what you are saying, or at least a big part of what you are saying.

    MFP has changed the standard Miffin St Jeor multipliers (not by a huge amount admittedly) because they only reflect a daily activity multiplier and not a activity AND exercise multiplier that sites such as Sailrabbit use (with descriptors that include both elements, unlike MFP with no mention of exercise).

    Infographics can convey simple concepts suchs as:
    • MFP estimates your TDEE or daily calorie needs only for a day with no exercise.
    • To get to a particular day's TDEE or daily calorie needs you need to estimate that day's exercise separately.

    What it can't, and shouldn't, try to convey is "think of it as your mean TDEE" - even though it's not TDEE as it isn't a total because it excludes one component that makes up TDEE. Because that's complete gobbledegook!

    Now for some people the gap between their actual TDEE and your "not really TDEE but lets call it that" number may not be large or too significant but for high exercisers it definitely is.
    Bad idea.
  • wunderkindking
    wunderkindking Posts: 1,615 Member
    sijomial wrote: »
    I don't find what you are saying complicated to understand - I just disagree with what you are saying, or at least a big part of what you are saying.

    MFP has changed the standard Miffin St Jeor multipliers (not by a huge amount admittedly) because they only reflect a daily activity multiplier and not a activity AND exercise multiplier that sites such as Sailrabbit use (with descriptors that include both elements, unlike MFP with no mention of exercise).

    Infographics can convey simple concepts suchs as:
    • MFP estimates your TDEE or daily calorie needs only for a day with no exercise.
    • To get to a particular day's TDEE or daily calorie needs you need to estimate that day's exercise separately.

    What it can't, and shouldn't, try to convey is "think of it as your mean TDEE" - even though it's not TDEE as it isn't a total because it excludes one component that makes up TDEE. Because that's complete gobbledegook!

    Now for some people the gap between their actual TDEE and your "not really TDEE but lets call it that" number may not be large or too significant but for high exercisers it definitely is.
    Bad idea.

    This.

    I'm not an intentional exerciser and I use TDEE most of the time with some added exercise calories logged for 'above and beyond' incidents but um. If I went with my 'not really tdee but let's call it that' and actual TDEE, my weight loss rate says I'd be something like 300-500 calories off a day. That's a problem.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,380 Member
    I agree with Sijomial, mostly.

    I also don't, in one respect, maybe.

    I'm just a regular doofus like anyone else with an opinion who's commenting here. It happens that my professional experience included quite a lot of writing documentation (usage procedures, training materials, basic explanations of functions, etc.) Often, this was taking technical documentation and user documentation about a purchased software product, and translating it to explanations for how the software worked and was to be used in our specific setting. The non-technical people I was writing for would typically have access to read the documentation that came with the purchased product, and a very few actually did. They also communicated directly with the software's vendor (when there were problems to resolve) or with peers elsewhere who used the same software.

    In my opinion, this is quite similar to the situation we're discussing here: MFP has a software product, they have documentation that describes how to use it, and we're trying to reframe or augment that documentation to make the product more user-friendly in a real-experience context.

    IMO, it absolutely *is* confusing to an average nontechnical person when supplementary documentation starts using some of the same terminology, but uses it to mean something different from how "official" documentation uses it.

    Unless it's absolutely *essential*, it's a bad (confusing) idea to completely stand the software's design paradigm on its head and say what amounts to "the software is intended to be used this way, a way I'm going to completely ignore, because I think I have a better idea how to do this process, and a person can jimmy the software to make that better idea work".

    In the rare case, that may be necessary, but the right way to communicate that IME is to create some kind of novice-friendly cognitive bridge between how the software is designed to be used, and the alternate way (jimmied up way) we think the software should be used. That's extra true if the users have access to the original documentation, will talk with the vendor or others who use the software in in order to get ideas but those other people use the software in the standard way, etc.

    In the particular case we're in, this MFP scenario, I think the best fully generic solution is to explain the basics within the paradigm that MFP uses (which the original graphic does), then optionally say "there are other ways you can use MFP" then explain the TDEE method (using terminology *accurately* not squishily), and then talk about percent TDEE methods.

    In threads, that's actually pretty close to what I usually do, I think. I don't believe I've ever posted the infographic, but I explain in terms of the "set your activity level based on pre-exercise life, then log exercise" method, and say things about hitting a reasonable loss rate for their size. If the person talks about other calculators giving different answers, or says they want to eat the same amount daily irrespective of exercise, I suggest they use a real TDEE calculator (I recommend Sailrabbit or Heybales' spreadsheet), and take a percentage discount off from TDEE to get a calorie goal, set that manually in MFP, don't log exercise.

    Either method can work. People here have been successful with either. Just putting out TDEE methods as the basic answer on a site designed (and documented) to work with NEAT+exercise, is confusing, unnecessarily complicated. Using the terminology imprecisely - not MFP-specific terminology, but standard everywhere-type terminology besides - is a disservice to people who are probably reading not only MFP content, but content elsewhere that uses the same terminology.

    If someone prefers "TDEE with a discount" method, that's great. If they want to recommend that method to others, that's fine. I'd appreciate it if they'd also explain that what they're recommending doesn't match up with MFP's intended use methods, and briefly explain the mismatch, but I can't control what others post . . . I can only comment on it.

    And will. Politely, I hope. So far, I don't *think* I've ever told someone point blank that they need to stop posting what they're posting (tempting though that is in a few cases, but AFAIK those haven't involved anyone posting on this thread so far).
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    edited August 2021
    And really the caveat that is many times mentioned along with suggesting the TDEE method, or the OP has already stated it - they have a steady regular exercise routine to make that method usable.

    I wouldn't even suggest unless that is stated, and the person maybe comments they don't like eating different amounts daily.

    I think there is something to the training MFP, Fitbit, Garmin, I guess Apple are trying to do though showing the NEAT method, or at least fact you may have different daily goal.
    When you do more you can eat more, when you do less you sure better eat less.

    I usually see people that have used sites with the TDEE method confused in thinking that exercise is required to lose weight - not appreciating that if you estimate your TDEE with exercise - then yes you sure better do it or you may have little to no deficit in place.
    But there is still usually confusion that it's the exercise that causes fat loss in their thinking ("why would eat back exercise calories if I want to lose weight?" we see often).

    I think the TDEE method requires a tad bit of schooling, because if someone doesn't realize what's really going on - they won't adjust going forward when they should. And the regulars know there is that kind of confusion going on.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,426 Member
    edited August 2021
    The last posts since jthan's post - we all hit a different aspect of this confusion.

    Pretty cool.

    I'm starting to think that maybe jthan has a different understanding of what the Activity Levels combined with the Goals actually do...like maybe he's thinking that if I tell the Goal setup, "I'm gonna exercise five times a week," that will affect my calorie allotment. It doesn't (just in case that's a sticking point)...it seems like jthan thinks there is a way on the Goal setup wizard to get your TDEE and still have it include your exercise calories. There isn't: the only way to game the system is to choose higher Activity Levels to sort of "include" your purposeful exercise OR just manually adjust your calories to whatever number you want (such as your TDEE that you found out some other way) and then just eat to that. Each bump up in Activity Levels DOES give an additional 250 calories to your daily goal but that's not how it's supposed to be used. Sure, you could call it whatever you want. Mean TDEE, CMR's Bunny Method, whatever. But not in the main forums without a good explanation of the differences when someone is asking a setup question.

    The way it actually works is much more nuanced and in my opinion more useful for people who have hit-or-miss exercise routines or even people who have long and short days on exercise. Like a leisurely hour walk on Tuesday versus say, a four hour mountain hike with a backpack on Saturday. Those two events would be a little harder to account for and/or to spread out over a week the way the TDEE method calculations do it. I'd be wanting to eat my own arm on Sunday if I ate the same amount as on a rest day.

    If you use the setup honestly, it wants you to account for exercise separately. That's the intention.
  • frankwbrown
    frankwbrown Posts: 13,069 Member
    edited August 2021
    Could we say that TDEE is your maintenance calories, i.e. the calories you should eat if you want to neither gain nor lose weight? "Total Daily Energy Expenditure" probably makes some peoples' eyes glaze over.

    Won't any infographic need additional explanation? Aren't the primary questions for beginners:
    1. How much weight can I safely/realistically lose per week? Alternatively, how much weight should I try to lose each week?
    2. How do I configure MFP so it tells me how many calories I can have?
    3. When I select activity level (totally sedentary to full blown Olympic athlete), should I include my level of exercise, or not? Should I add exercise calories to what MFP gives me?
    4. Isn't there some silver bullet that let's me avoid all this? :D
    edit: I obviously overlooked probably the number one question:
    5. I'm trying so hard, but I'm not losing weight? Why, what am I doing wrong?
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,426 Member
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    Could we say that TDEE is your maintenance calories, i.e. the calories you should eat if you want to neither gain nor lose weight? "Total Daily Energy Expenditure" probably makes some peoples' eyes glaze over.

    Won't any infographic need additional explanation? Aren't the primary questions for beginners:
    1. How much weight can I safely/realistically lose per week? Alternatively, how much weight should I try to lose each week?
    2. How do I configure MFP so it tells me how many calories I can have?
    3. When I select activity level (totally sedentary to full blown Olympic athlete), should I include my level of exercise, or not? Should I add exercise calories to what MFP gives me?
    4. Isn't there some silver bullet that let's me avoid all this? :D
    edit: I obviously overlooked probably the number one question:
    5. I'm trying so hard, but I'm not losing weight? Why, what am I doing wrong?

    But "maintenance calories" on MFP is different than TDEE, unless you do zero exercise.
  • frankwbrown
    frankwbrown Posts: 13,069 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    Could we say that TDEE is your maintenance calories, i.e. the calories you should eat if you want to neither gain nor lose weight? "Total Daily Energy Expenditure" probably makes some peoples' eyes glaze over.

    Won't any infographic need additional explanation? Aren't the primary questions for beginners:
    1. How much weight can I safely/realistically lose per week? Alternatively, how much weight should I try to lose each week?
    2. How do I configure MFP so it tells me how many calories I can have?
    3. When I select activity level (totally sedentary to full blown Olympic athlete), should I include my level of exercise, or not? Should I add exercise calories to what MFP gives me?
    4. Isn't there some silver bullet that let's me avoid all this? :D
    edit: I obviously overlooked probably the number one question:
    5. I'm trying so hard, but I'm not losing weight? Why, what am I doing wrong?

    But "maintenance calories" on MFP is different than TDEE, unless you do zero exercise.
    cmriverside wrote: »
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    Could we say that TDEE is your maintenance calories, i.e. the calories you should eat if you want to neither gain nor lose weight? "Total Daily Energy Expenditure" probably makes some peoples' eyes glaze over.

    Won't any infographic need additional explanation? Aren't the primary questions for beginners:
    1. How much weight can I safely/realistically lose per week? Alternatively, how much weight should I try to lose each week?
    2. How do I configure MFP so it tells me how many calories I can have?
    3. When I select activity level (totally sedentary to full blown Olympic athlete), should I include my level of exercise, or not? Should I add exercise calories to what MFP gives me?
    4. Isn't there some silver bullet that let's me avoid all this? :D
    edit: I obviously overlooked probably the number one question:
    5. I'm trying so hard, but I'm not losing weight? Why, what am I doing wrong?

    But "maintenance calories" on MFP is different than TDEE, unless you do zero exercise.

    I guess I've never seen the point in distinguishing between activity done as part of your daily life vs activity done as exercise. I mean, activity is activity. But then, after rereading the following, I understand why. I guess it would help if newbies would read (and fully comprehend) the following article (including myself, apparently more than once or twice):
    excerpt from How Does MyFitnessPal Calculate My Initial Goals
    We also ask you for your weekly exercise goals (which should not be included in your initial activity level), in order to provide an incentive for you to reach. However, we do not account for additional exercise outside of your reported daily activity level, until you actually perform and log exercise to your diary under the "Cardiovascular" section. Please see this article to understand why we do not currently calculate calories via strength exercises.

    So you're saying "maintenance calories" is what MFP calculates above, and fits between RMR and TDEE?
    Is there an acronym for it? BMR -> RMR -> (maintenance calories)? -> TDEE
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,426 Member
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    Could we say that TDEE is your maintenance calories, i.e. the calories you should eat if you want to neither gain nor lose weight? "Total Daily Energy Expenditure" probably makes some peoples' eyes glaze over.

    Won't any infographic need additional explanation? Aren't the primary questions for beginners:
    1. How much weight can I safely/realistically lose per week? Alternatively, how much weight should I try to lose each week?
    2. How do I configure MFP so it tells me how many calories I can have?
    3. When I select activity level (totally sedentary to full blown Olympic athlete), should I include my level of exercise, or not? Should I add exercise calories to what MFP gives me?
    4. Isn't there some silver bullet that let's me avoid all this? :D
    edit: I obviously overlooked probably the number one question:
    5. I'm trying so hard, but I'm not losing weight? Why, what am I doing wrong?

    But "maintenance calories" on MFP is different than TDEE, unless you do zero exercise.
    cmriverside wrote: »
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    Could we say that TDEE is your maintenance calories, i.e. the calories you should eat if you want to neither gain nor lose weight? "Total Daily Energy Expenditure" probably makes some peoples' eyes glaze over.

    Won't any infographic need additional explanation? Aren't the primary questions for beginners:
    1. How much weight can I safely/realistically lose per week? Alternatively, how much weight should I try to lose each week?
    2. How do I configure MFP so it tells me how many calories I can have?
    3. When I select activity level (totally sedentary to full blown Olympic athlete), should I include my level of exercise, or not? Should I add exercise calories to what MFP gives me?
    4. Isn't there some silver bullet that let's me avoid all this? :D
    edit: I obviously overlooked probably the number one question:
    5. I'm trying so hard, but I'm not losing weight? Why, what am I doing wrong?

    But "maintenance calories" on MFP is different than TDEE, unless you do zero exercise.

    I guess I've never seen the point in distinguishing between activity done as part of your daily life vs activity done as exercise. I mean, activity is activity. But then, after rereading the following, I understand why. I guess it would help if newbies would read (and fully comprehend) the following article (including myself, apparently more than once or twice):
    excerpt from How Does MyFitnessPal Calculate My Initial Goals
    We also ask you for your weekly exercise goals (which should not be included in your initial activity level), in order to provide an incentive for you to reach. However, we do not account for additional exercise outside of your reported daily activity level, until you actually perform and log exercise to your diary under the "Cardiovascular" section. Please see this article to understand why we do not currently calculate calories via strength exercises.

    So you're saying "maintenance calories" is what MFP calculates above, and fits between RMR and TDEE?
    Is there an acronym for it? BMR -> RMR -> (maintenance calories)? -> TDEE

    Yes.

    Non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT)

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12468415/
  • frankwbrown
    frankwbrown Posts: 13,069 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    Could we say that TDEE is your maintenance calories, i.e. the calories you should eat if you want to neither gain nor lose weight? "Total Daily Energy Expenditure" probably makes some peoples' eyes glaze over.

    Won't any infographic need additional explanation? Aren't the primary questions for beginners:
    1. How much weight can I safely/realistically lose per week? Alternatively, how much weight should I try to lose each week?
    2. How do I configure MFP so it tells me how many calories I can have?
    3. When I select activity level (totally sedentary to full blown Olympic athlete), should I include my level of exercise, or not? Should I add exercise calories to what MFP gives me?
    4. Isn't there some silver bullet that let's me avoid all this? :D
    edit: I obviously overlooked probably the number one question:
    5. I'm trying so hard, but I'm not losing weight? Why, what am I doing wrong?

    But "maintenance calories" on MFP is different than TDEE, unless you do zero exercise.
    cmriverside wrote: »
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    Could we say that TDEE is your maintenance calories, i.e. the calories you should eat if you want to neither gain nor lose weight? "Total Daily Energy Expenditure" probably makes some peoples' eyes glaze over.

    Won't any infographic need additional explanation? Aren't the primary questions for beginners:
    1. How much weight can I safely/realistically lose per week? Alternatively, how much weight should I try to lose each week?
    2. How do I configure MFP so it tells me how many calories I can have?
    3. When I select activity level (totally sedentary to full blown Olympic athlete), should I include my level of exercise, or not? Should I add exercise calories to what MFP gives me?
    4. Isn't there some silver bullet that let's me avoid all this? :D
    edit: I obviously overlooked probably the number one question:
    5. I'm trying so hard, but I'm not losing weight? Why, what am I doing wrong?

    But "maintenance calories" on MFP is different than TDEE, unless you do zero exercise.

    I guess I've never seen the point in distinguishing between activity done as part of your daily life vs activity done as exercise. I mean, activity is activity. But then, after rereading the following, I understand why. I guess it would help if newbies would read (and fully comprehend) the following article (including myself, apparently more than once or twice):
    excerpt from How Does MyFitnessPal Calculate My Initial Goals
    We also ask you for your weekly exercise goals (which should not be included in your initial activity level), in order to provide an incentive for you to reach. However, we do not account for additional exercise outside of your reported daily activity level, until you actually perform and log exercise to your diary under the "Cardiovascular" section. Please see this article to understand why we do not currently calculate calories via strength exercises.

    So you're saying "maintenance calories" is what MFP calculates above, and fits between RMR and TDEE?
    Is there an acronym for it? BMR -> RMR -> (maintenance calories)? -> TDEE

    Yes.

    Non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT)

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12468415/

    Thank you!
    That article's extract says:
    "Non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT) is the energy expended for everything we do that is not sleeping, eating or sports-like exercise."

    So, as I understand it, there's a slight difference:
    Where BMR is subsumed by RMR, NEAT is in addition to RMR, and...
    I'm assuming then that TDEE = RMR + NEAT + EAT...
    and MFP tries to calculate RMR + NEAT, and expects you to account for EAT.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    That's correct regarding NEAT, usually it sits on top of BMR in the charts. So our common method of referring to how MFP is doing this compared to other sites is strictly not a correct use of the term either.

    Also TEF - Thermic Effect of Food - about 10% of calories eaten burned to digest and deal with them.

    I think we have been throwing that into the NEAT, but that is usually on it's own too in charts.

    It's accounted for in Activity Levels of course, but rarely mentioned on it's own.

    I think it's also telling that the majority of supposed TDEE calcs out there only consider the EAT part of the TDEE for levels, not the NEAT part at all.

    Yet another reinforcement of the myth that exercise is needed for weight loss, which again I think is good MFP is trying to break that.

    It is really sad how many need to have a super simple concept put before them because experience has shown far too many don't want to invest too many brain cycles on understanding enough of this stuff.
    I'm not saying you have to make it a hobby like many of us might consider it in our lives now, but can't someone read more than 8 words to understand what options they are selecting and a tad bit of info on what's going on?
    oh well, back to the drawing board.

    Ohhhh - could MFP use pictures?

    A person sleeping, then sitting at work/standup job/household chores, then eating food, then some exercise - Words to effect "other sites use hopeful TDEE (Total .....)"

    And then a person sleep, sitting ......, eating food -
    Words to effect "this site uses NEAT (Non-......), Exercise counts when you do it" then show the exercise panel.

    Off the cuff and I'm not creative.
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 14,264 Member
    edited August 2021
    I would love to tell people 0.25% to 1.5% of your body weight per week is probably safe with most people finding it sustainable to lose in the range of 0.25% to 1% per week at the most and while you're at it, and regardless of what it means in terms of body weight lost, try to limit yourself to a deficit that doesn't exceeds 25% of your TDEE while you have the fat stores to support it (obese) and does not exceed 20% of your TDEE when you have less fat stores available (mid+ overweight to normal weight), unless of course you're just starting in which case you can probably throw in a few faster weeks, or in case you're well over 6 months into deficits in which you probably need to start thinking slower... but I don't think that it works too well, though I try! And it ignores people who might go faster but have structured refeeds and people who...
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,380 Member
    @heybales (or anyone else), do you know of any standard-ish industry term for the total that is (BMR/RMR+TEF+NEAT) without EAT, i.e., the thing that we tend to call NEAT here, even though it isn't, precisely?
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,380 Member
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    Could we say that TDEE is your maintenance calories, i.e. the calories you should eat if you want to neither gain nor lose weight? "Total Daily Energy Expenditure" probably makes some peoples' eyes glaze over.

    Won't any infographic need additional explanation? Aren't the primary questions for beginners:
    1. How much weight can I safely/realistically lose per week? Alternatively, how much weight should I try to lose each week?
    2. How do I configure MFP so it tells me how many calories I can have?
    3. When I select activity level (totally sedentary to full blown Olympic athlete), should I include my level of exercise, or not? Should I add exercise calories to what MFP gives me?
    4. Isn't there some silver bullet that let's me avoid all this? :D
    edit: I obviously overlooked probably the number one question:
    5. I'm trying so hard, but I'm not losing weight? Why, what am I doing wrong?

    But "maintenance calories" on MFP is different than TDEE, unless you do zero exercise.
    cmriverside wrote: »
    frankwbrown wrote: »
    Could we say that TDEE is your maintenance calories, i.e. the calories you should eat if you want to neither gain nor lose weight? "Total Daily Energy Expenditure" probably makes some peoples' eyes glaze over.

    Won't any infographic need additional explanation? Aren't the primary questions for beginners:
    1. How much weight can I safely/realistically lose per week? Alternatively, how much weight should I try to lose each week?
    2. How do I configure MFP so it tells me how many calories I can have?
    3. When I select activity level (totally sedentary to full blown Olympic athlete), should I include my level of exercise, or not? Should I add exercise calories to what MFP gives me?
    4. Isn't there some silver bullet that let's me avoid all this? :D
    edit: I obviously overlooked probably the number one question:
    5. I'm trying so hard, but I'm not losing weight? Why, what am I doing wrong?

    But "maintenance calories" on MFP is different than TDEE, unless you do zero exercise.

    I guess I've never seen the point in distinguishing between activity done as part of your daily life vs activity done as exercise. I mean, activity is activity. But then, after rereading the following, I understand why. I guess it would help if newbies would read (and fully comprehend) the following article (including myself, apparently more than once or twice):
    excerpt from How Does MyFitnessPal Calculate My Initial Goals
    We also ask you for your weekly exercise goals (which should not be included in your initial activity level), in order to provide an incentive for you to reach. However, we do not account for additional exercise outside of your reported daily activity level, until you actually perform and log exercise to your diary under the "Cardiovascular" section. Please see this article to understand why we do not currently calculate calories via strength exercises.

    So you're saying "maintenance calories" is what MFP calculates above, and fits between RMR and TDEE?
    Is there an acronym for it? BMR -> RMR -> (maintenance calories)? -> TDEE

    Yes.

    Non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT)

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12468415/

    Thank you!
    That article's extract says:
    "Non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT) is the energy expended for everything we do that is not sleeping, eating or sports-like exercise."

    So, as I understand it, there's a slight difference:
    Where BMR is subsumed by RMR, NEAT is in addition to RMR, and...
    I'm assuming then that TDEE = RMR + NEAT + EAT...
    and MFP tries to calculate RMR + NEAT, and expects you to account for EAT.

    Pedantic quibble: It tries to *estimate* RMR + NEAT. Yeah, it calculates the estimate. But it's IMO important that it's an estimate of the thing, and not a calculation of the thing.

    Another common confusion around here is seen when people post things like "I'm eating at maintenance and still losing weight: How can that be?" Even apart from incorrect logging, it can be from the person not being average, so the estimate is off for them.

    Estimates. It's all estimates. Unfortunately.

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