Body composition help

normanmitten953

Ok so I lost 50 lbs last year doing a ketogenic style for about 8 months, sw 250, CW 197. As you can see my lower stomach is soft and pudgy still, currently I’m still doing keto lifestyle as it really helps my mind, anxiety and clarity etc…I love ketones. My calories are between 1800-2100 a day, and I workout 5 days a week a mix of cardio (30 mins) and weight lifting push/pull stuff pretty general. I really want to get more “cut” but I feel like I’m stalled at 195 been here for a few months now. I’m switching over from 16:8 fasting to alternate day fasting, 20:4 one day (for ketones and autogaphy, the hgh and norephrine boost, adrenaline and insulin sensitivity. Breaking fast after workout in evening. And eating clean proteins. Then eating my normal meal. Then next day I eat freely. I want my metabolic rate up, and the loose skin gone, does anyone here have any suggestions, or am I missing something? I feel like the science behind what I’m doing is good, but I’m always just shy of what I want to look like! 😂 I want the six pack!

I’m 6’2, 197, 34 male. Thanks for any input!

Xellercin

A 6 pack is very difficult to maintain, and most of the men I know who have them have to cycle bulking and cutting to maintain them, which means they're often not visible.

I know a few guys who have them visible all year round without bulking/cutting, but they're young professional dancers and MMA fighters who exercise and do core strength work for a living. Even then, many of them don't have 6 packs because genetics plays a huge role as to how large and visible those specific muscles can get.

That's not to say you can't see improvement and more definition over time. You're already at an amazing place, just having as flat a stomach as you have is really impressive. But perhaps instead of focusing on abs in particular, focus instead on the rest of the muscles in the torso, which can really improve your core strength, posture, and generally make you look way more ripped without having to cut as much as it takes to have a 6 pack.

My husband was all fixated on abs and not getting results he wanted until I got him into pilates. When he was focusing on abs, he was just making his stomach bigger unless he was cutting. I talked him into not focusing on building ab bulk and instead building everything around the abs with more core strength exercises that target smaller muscles. Now his whole torso has so much visible muscle, the overall esthetic is that he looks ripped, even if he doesn't have a 6 pack, and his stomach is actually flatter than when he put all that work into bulking his abs, because genetically, his abs protrude out. It's fun just to watch him move, his whole upper body just ripples as he moves around, especially his ultra-cut serratus anteriors. I love me some serratus anteriors I tell ya.

Play around with it. Body comp can be a lot of fun because there's a lot more to it than just 6 packs.

What's most important though is to find a routine you enjoy that you can sustain. My husband happens to love adding pilates to his routine, so that's why he sticks with it. The posture benefits have made it comfortable for him to convert to a standing desk, so that's even more fitness benefit.

Try to have fun with it. You already look amazing, so everything from here on out can be icing on the cake. Try to focus on what makes you happy and feel strong and excited, that's the best way to get optimal results, IMO.

normanmitten953

Honestly makes a lot of sense, and lately I started doing some yoga flow, I noticed it is hitting more muscles around the abs, yea everything you said makes sense. My buddy who is a few years older lives with a six pack 😂 even if he is a few lbs over weight. Yea day by day getting stronger and healthier is the goal. 🙏

Xellercin

Yeah, take a look at this guy:
https://assets.gqindia.com/photos/5cdc5b83de9b7e0eac8f45a2/master/w_1600,c_limit/0126-866x956.jpg

vs this guy:
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/ab/4b/fb/ab4bfb29c65dc45790a8a00cad5a7495.jpg

Getting ripped can look wildly different depending on your focus and your genetics. To me, it's the little muscles that make the difference between looking really overall athletic vs looking like you spend a lot of time in the gym on pecs and abs. Nothing wrong with either, they're just different outcomes and looks. But that second guy could have a thin layer of fat hiding his abs and still look frickin' shredded. Granted one is flexing almost every muscle and the other is relaxing, so there's that as well, but the point still stands that 6 packs aren't the only muscles that make you look strong, lean and fit.

But that's why I say to have fun with it. Don't get too fixated on one feature you don't like that's hard to perfect when your whole body is a playground of muscles that you can build and strengthen, and so many capacities and movements for your body to learn.

Don't be flaw-based with your approach, this isn't about punishing your body for not being good enough, it's about treating your body really, really well and seeing the fun and exciting ways in can change in response to that dedicated care.

normanmitten953

🙏 well put!

JBanx256

By all means, if you want to do alternate-day fasting, go for it. However, I very recently read this study:

Templeman et al., A randomized controlled trial to isolate the effects of fasting and energy restriction on weight loss and metabolic health in lean adults. Science Translational Medicine. June, 2021.

The TL;DR being "Daily Energy Restriction Beats Alternate-Day Fasting for Fat Loss"

As a prior poster noted, achieving a visible 6-pack can be very difficult and maintaining it year-round is even harder. I know several people who have gotten there and then came to the conclusion that it's simply not worth sacrifice/effort.

Above all though, I wanna say congrats on your progress thus far! There are a ton of dudes who would kill to look the way you do now, so please don't think any less of yourself because you don't have a 6-pack. You look awesome. Keep up the good work, regardless of which path you choose...

Xellercin

All diet studies in humans are very limited. That study was done for 3 weeks, which is typically the max length of a randomized controlled diet study.

We know SO LITTLE about the affects of any diets because we have no way to study them effectively. This is well known in the research and medical world, it's why doctors generally know so little about nutrition, because there's so little to know.

normanmitten953

Yea the fasting part is more for cognitive benefits, I love how I feel fasted. I’ve done 24 hour fasts Monday’s for a while now for religious reasons and just really like them, but I have decided after this thread to incorporate complex carbs get off keto and listen to my body, and I’m super excited! I have been fault based, and I know better than that! I’m everything give thanks! I felt great in gym today! I’m starting a new adventure! Let’s go! Dam the torpedos people! Full steam ahead!

normanmitten953

This is the journey thus far! Today at the gyms vs 2020!

Xellercin

Really nice to hear your update. You sound a lot happier. Sometimes just a little mindset shift is all it takes. It sounds like you already knew all of this, you just needed to be reminded of what you already knew.

psuLemon

If your goal is asthetics and/or maximizing muscle growth, I would probably limit fasting and looks into either a cyclical or targeted ketogenic diet. And most importantly, a well structured lifting routing.

Generally, I suggest starting with TKD where you focus carbs before and potentially after your workout. In general, you will likely be at the higher end of daily carbs (~50g) with 30g of that coming before a workout. The carbs will support gym performance and inhibit muscle protein breakdown. Ensure proteins are high enough (~160-190g) per day. Spreading them out 3-4x a day is more optimal but not required.

And just push hard in the gym.

https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1

psuLemon

Oh and on the pedantic side, calorie restriction increases autophagy and the increases in HGH from fasting is because HGH mobilizes fatty acids for fuel. Transient increases in HGH won't increase muscle gain. Given the limitations of muscle protein synthesis is limited to 30-40g (depending on L-Luceine content), spreading it to supply amino acids more frequently will provide a better opportunity to increase muscle protein turnover rates and increase muscle more.

As Alan Aragon always said, no one got jacked from fasting.

normanmitten953

Yea I’ve definitely heard that info on TKD with Thomas delaur, I think I am gonna cycle into carbs from complex before and after workout, and ease off the fasting, maybe doing my once a week Monday one, the autogaphy was a big reason also why I enjoy 20-48 hour fasts. But I’m looking to create a healthier life and relationship to food and the gym. That’s some good info lemon, thanks!

normanmitten953

I have been taking 5G of luecine, 1 g of carantine, 5 g creatine when I eat after my gym, I really want to target when I’m insulin sensitive and the days i fast workout fasted lightly and then try to liberate some fatty acids get the insulin sensitivity then break the fast with clean proteins and some carbs like a little clementine orange and rice cakes, to utilize both pathways fructose and glucose. Trying to get the best of both worlds, and really target and utilize insulin sensitivity.

alexosborne996

I know keto has a big fan base, but very low carb depletes your glycogen stores, which if you're weight training both inhibits your workouts and also makes the muscle look flat, after all, each gram of glycogen carries with it around 3g of water and this causes the muscle cells to swell = more prominent muscles. The point i'm making is, even if you have underdeveloped abs, if they're flat and deflated, you're much less likely to see them under a layer of subcutaneous fat.

Also bear in mind that if your abs aren't developed either, they won't show through regardless of bodyfat percentage.

Increasing your carb intake and simply restricting calories will give you much better results in both muscle building capability and look. That's not just bro science or copying something out of a forum either, it's from personal experience and there is plenty of scientific research to back that up.

I ran keto for nearly a year when I was overweight about 5 years ago before starting a training programme as it was being touted as the best way to lose weight, but over the years I've worked out through trial and error that dropping carbs is not the be all and end all of fat loss, particularly if you're trying to gain muscle.

I don't know your reasons for sticking with keto, but it's always worthwhile looking at your other options and considering an alternative way forward, you may surprise yourself, I did.

normanmitten953

Yea , I had 3 days ago decided to go with high protein and some healthy complex carbs in morning and before workout, lots of lean protein and I feel better in gym already, I feel like I’ve been training at such a low percent of what my muscles are capable of now that they loaded with glucose they are happy! Great info on here thanks all!

Xellercin

normanmitten953 wrote: »

I have been taking 5G of luecine, 1 g of carantine, 5 g creatine when I eat after my gym, I really want to target when I’m insulin sensitive and the days i fast workout fasted lightly and then try to liberate some fatty acids get the insulin sensitivity then break the fast with clean proteins and some carbs like a little clementine orange and rice cakes, to utilize both pathways fructose and glucose. Trying to get the best of both worlds, and really target and utilize insulin sensitivity.

I'm just gonna weigh in here as someone who put in all of the work to get really frickin' jacked back in the day.

It's all nice and good to chase specific body composition goals, but what really matters long term is to do what is most sustainable and enjoyable.

I gave body comp my everything for a few years and got EXACTLY the results I wanted. Then I suffered a back injury, took on WAY too much work, and a shocking amount of that work disappeared quicker than I could have possibly imagined.

What I was doing with my workouts and diets and supplements was effective, but it was complicated, and time consuming and the diet aspect of it made eating this neurotic thing that I needed to think about constantly.

I've never gotten back to that ultra jacked state that I was in 20 years ago, but I also don't care. I'm able to sustain a strong, healthy, really nice looking body by just living a normal, healthy, active lifestyle where I don't have to micro manage my eating and workouts.

My nutrition and exercise now fit with my life, I don't fit my life around my nutrition and exercise. And there's probably a gorgeous, healthy version of your body that can be obtained/maintained just by living really, really well.

Now, it's your life, your body, and perhaps this is all enjoyable and sustainable to you, and exactly how you want to spend your time and energy, and you won't burnout in it. And if that's the case, then have at it, and enjoy your detail-oriented body sculpting process.

But I just wanted to offer the perspective to always keep sustainability and enjoyablitity as too priorities whenever designing a self-care regimen.

You don't want to set yourself up to be the guy in his 50s who "used to be ripped," because I'm friends with A LOT of those guys.

psuLemon

alexosborne996 wrote: »

I know keto has a big fan base, but very low carb depletes your glycogen stores, which if you're weight training both inhibits your workouts and also makes the muscle look flat, after all, each gram of glycogen carries with it around 3g of water and this causes the muscle cells to swell = more prominent muscles. The point i'm making is, even if you have underdeveloped abs, if they're flat and deflated, you're much less likely to see them under a layer of subcutaneous fat.

Also bear in mind that if your abs aren't developed either, they won't show through regardless of bodyfat percentage.

Increasing your carb intake and simply restricting calories will give you much better results in both muscle building capability and look. That's not just bro science or copying something out of a forum either, it's from personal experience and there is plenty of scientific research to back that up.

I ran keto for nearly a year when I was overweight about 5 years ago before starting a training programme as it was being touted as the best way to lose weight, but over the years I've worked out through trial and error that dropping carbs is not the be all and end all of fat loss, particularly if you're trying to gain muscle.

I don't know your reasons for sticking with keto, but it's always worthwhile looking at your other options and considering an alternative way forward, you may surprise yourself, I did.

If you read up a few post, he feels better on keto. I agree with most of your logic but if one feels better there may be better solutions like CKD or TKD, rather than just coming off of keto.