Recomp cardio and lifting amounts?

primalsarah

Hi! I’m aiming to recomp right now.
34 yo f 5’5”
139 lbs
Goal 130
Calorie goal is 1600

I usually hit around 10k steps and have a home gym with a spin bike and weights.

My question is how to split my exercise schedule between cardio and weight lifting? I have some muscle but look skinny fat at the moment.

AnnPT77

It sounds like strength or muscle-mass gains are your main priority? If so, I'd suggest picking a strength training program suited to your more detailed goals. That will require a certain time budget (times per week, length of sessions). Then fill in the rest of your intended exercise time with cardio.

Sticking with a reasonable strength program will be the biggest determinant of success. There's a thread here with discussion of programs other MFP-ers have found beneficial:

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1

Strength gains can come quite quickly when new to training, but mass gains require time and patience.

Another factor is eating: Getting good overall nutrition, especially (but not exclusively) adequate protein, would be a help. Something around 0.8g per pound of goal weight daily, would be a good protein minimum IMO, though some people will say 1 gram. So, 0.8-1g per 130 pounds would be 104-130g protein daily.

Strictly speaking, recomposition is done at constant weight, but it sounds like you want to lose weight alongside. Keeping loss slow (half a pound a week or less) will help with strength/muscle progress. (That would be a 250 calorie daily deficit or less. If you want to get fancy, you could even vary your deficit by day, but that's probably marginal return vs. simply keeping the loss slow, unless it helps you with hunger.)

Consider your exercise load as you set your calories, either by adjusting a TDEE if you like eating the same amount every day, or using the MFP method of logging and eating back a reasonable estimate of exercise calories. Fueling your activity level is really important for fitness progress of all types (and for health).

Your cardio schedule and choice may also matter. Some kinds of cardio create more muscular challenge than others. Those with more muscular challenge can interfere with strength training performance or recovery. (Recovery, when muscles torn down during training are rebuilt, is where the magic happens.) That can affect your cardio choice, or your cardio scheduling.

Are you doing cardio other than walking now? If new to both cardio and strength as a steady practice, phase them in gradually rather than going from zero to lots all at once. If strength/muscle is your priority, start with strength training, and gradually increase cardio frequency and/or duration to manage fatigue and recovery.

Unless quite conditioned to your particular cardio, low to moderate intensity steady state work would IMO be the best focus initially. Higher intensity also can interfere with recovery. (The objective definition of "intensity" varies with fitness level. The rowing pace that's intense for me would be trivial to an Olympic rower, for example.)

You may find that some people recommend you do high intensity interval cardio because it's time efficient. If strength were my priority, I wouldn't do that, especially not early on. Moderate intervals can be OK, after some lower steady state work for a few weeks to months to build a base. (That's speaking purely from a fitness perspective. If you can't find cardio that's engaging, sometimes moderate intervals can help break it up.)

If you do strength and cardio on the same day, do the priority one first. As I'm reading you, that would be strength. If on different days, then the issues of intensity or particular cardio types limiting recovery would be the considerations. Pay attention to how you feel as you go on. Fatigue, weakness, sleep issues, low mood, and that sort of thing would be signs of overdoing. The totality of exercise should be energizing overall for the rest of your daily life, not exhausting or draining. (It's OK to feel just a few minutes of "whew" right after a workout - I'm talking about your "most of the time" feelings.

I'm sorry, this is already an essay. I hope it makes sense, answers your questions.

It's just one woman's opinion. FWIW, just as truth in advertising, I'm about your size (5'5", mid-120s pounds because narrow build) but nearly twice your age (66), have been working out actively for around 20 years, including competing (as a machine/on-water rower) in the past. My priority is rowing, but I do some strength training as an adjunct. Strength training isn't my expertise; I know more about CV fitness development in context of a strength-y form of cardio, including balance.

Best wishes!

sijomial

It's your strength training that drives recomp.

Cardio amount is in relation to your CV fitness goals - what are they?
e.g. I do lots and lots of cardio because I do endurance cycling so my volume has to be high, plus I enjoy it and enjoy eating a lot!!

How many days a week do you want to train? How long have you been training seriously?

Do you prefer splitting your cardio and strength training?
(I can do both in one session without impact on the quality of my training but far prefer to concentrate fully on one aspect.)

You say you have a Spinning bike but how do you use it? Easy steady state rides or lung busting / quad killing max intensity hill sprints will have a very different impact on your strength training performance and recovery.

Goals - priorities - capabilities - restrictions - preferences shape your schedule. There isn't just one way that is universally correct so you really need to expand on your detail to get personal rather than generic advice.

primalsarah

Great insights, thank you.
For context, I’ve lost 10 lbs over the last year (the 2020 10? Also a third baby to partially blame). The last 10 for me shows in my face and midsection, so my goals are to look and be lean and strong. While I’ve lifted in years previous, I’m really just starting to pick up the barbell again for the first time in a while, after focusing on 20-30 min high intensity bike rides. I’m thinking I’ll aim to lose 5 more pounds, then shift my exercise sessions to prioritize lifting.

cwolfman13

primalsarah wrote: »

Hi! I’m aiming to recomp right now.
34 yo f 5’5”
139 lbs
Goal 130
Calorie goal is 1600

I usually hit around 10k steps and have a home gym with a spin bike and weights.

My question is how to split my exercise schedule between cardio and weight lifting? I have some muscle but look skinny fat at the moment.

It really depends on priorities. For me personally, lifting and cardio are all about my overall fitness and health and having a balanced approach. I'd first recommend running a structured lifting program. I'm personally partial to full body programs as they are very efficient and you can just run them 2-3x per week with good results. Body part splits and/or push-pull splits are too many days in the weight room for me given my time constraints. Right now my exercise routine looks like this:

Mon - Rucking (walking/hiking with a weighted pack)
Tues - AM Cycling; weight room at lunch
Wed - Rucking
Thurs - AM Cycling; weight room at lunch
Fri - AM cycling or bike commute
Sat - Trail Ride/Mountain bike or a hike...if the weather isn't cooperating I usually just ride on Zwift
Sun - Open. Sometimes I go lift...sometimes I just rest...sometimes something active recreation with the family, etc.

We're going on a spring break road trip at the end of March that will involve quite a bit of hiking...mostly non strenuous in terms of terrain and overall elevation gain, but we will be covering some distance and need to have a day pack...so I think Sundays for awhile will probably involve getting the family out for some actual hiking in the mountain foothills to get everyone prepared, especially my kids.

In general, my exercise routine revolves around upcoming events and other things. Once we get back from spring break for example, I will be doing a lot more cycling as I have a cycling event in late May and another in August and another in early September and will for the most part drop the rucking. I pretty much lift 2x per week as it keeps me functionally strong and aesthetically nice, but I'm not a strength athlete or bodybuilder so I don't spend a ton of time in the weight room...too many other things I'd rather be doing.

sijomial

primalsarah wrote: »

Great insights, thank you.
For context, I’ve lost 10 lbs over the last year (the 2020 10? Also a third baby to partially blame). The last 10 for me shows in my face and midsection, so my goals are to look and be lean and strong. While I’ve lifted in years previous, I’m really just starting to pick up the barbell again for the first time in a while, after focusing on 20-30 min high intensity bike rides. I’m thinking I’ll aim to lose 5 more pounds, then shift my exercise sessions to prioritize lifting.

Unless there is a particular reason to do short but high intensity rides I'd probably change this aspect as high intensity CV exercise can compromise your lifting performance and recovery - they aren't a good match. Low to moderate intensity for a longer duration would likely give you just as good fitness return without the fatigue and need for recovery, plus a bigger calorie burn if you are using cardio to create your current deficit.

AnnPT77

sijomial wrote: »

primalsarah wrote: »

Great insights, thank you.
For context, I’ve lost 10 lbs over the last year (the 2020 10? Also a third baby to partially blame). The last 10 for me shows in my face and midsection, so my goals are to look and be lean and strong. While I’ve lifted in years previous, I’m really just starting to pick up the barbell again for the first time in a while, after focusing on 20-30 min high intensity bike rides. I’m thinking I’ll aim to lose 5 more pounds, then shift my exercise sessions to prioritize lifting.

Unless there is a particular reason to do short but high intensity rides I'd probably change this aspect as high intensity CV exercise can compromise your lifting performance and recovery - they aren't a good match. Low to moderate intensity for a longer duration would likely give you just as good fitness return without the fatigue and need for recovery, plus a bigger calorie burn if you are using cardio to create your current deficit.

This. High intensity is waaay oversold by the popularized segment of the fitness blogosphere, IMO.

All high intensity all the time isn't optimal for either well-rounded fitness development, or as an adjunct to weight management. And it affects overall physiological recovery, which matters for strength maintenance/development.

Elite athletes in high-demand somewhat-strength-y CV sports don't do high intensity CV workouts day in and day out (when "high intensity" is defined in terms of their capacity, not mine - their easy workouts might kill me). Why would us duffers want to do so? And as Sijomial says, the sweet spot for calorie burn is typically a moderate-ish (or so) intensity one can sustain for one's total available cardio time budget, without incurring much fatigue penalty, while allowing for a bit of warm-up/cool down.

Some high intensity in the mix can be good for someone who already has decent base CV fitness, and it's probable that some can be programmed alongside strength-priority workouts, given some thought to ramp-up, recovery needs, and timing. True (personalized) high intensity does have some useful health and fitness benefits . . . but it's more of a condiment than a main dish.

If high intensity is super fun and motivating for you personally . . . well, that matters, too, but it's hard for someone else to give objective, sensible advice about balancing that. I feel like too many people do high intensity work too often because they think it's good/necessary to do it, though.

MikePfirrman

My routine is very similar to cwolfman13. I only lift 3 times a week, concentrating heavily on compound lifts -- lighter (for some people) deadlifts, lunges, step ups on plyo boxes (sometimes weighted), pullups /overhead presses and lots of pushups and chest presses.

I honestly don't work the back a ton because I row six or seven hours a week on a machine. I'll do an hour of cardio six days a week and push it on two of those. I find that doing my lifting on the harder cardio days works well as I really take it easy on the other days, with the exception of Sunday, where I add a 3rd lift but a very slow, easy long cardio day.

My weight goes to the exact same places as yours -- my waist first and my face second. But after 15 years of working out, I'm over 190 now and, I can tell you for sure, the 190ish I'm at right now looks way different than the 190 on the way down when I first lost the weight.

Recomposition is very gradual. When I first lost the weight, I went down to 170 and, I thought, I looked good. The wife thought I was too thin. After a few years, I was at 185 and fairly ripped. I'm in the 190s now but only need to lose around 5 lbs to look pretty solid. But this happened over nearly a decade. Certainly not a quick process, so don't expect instant results. Just lift very consistently. I probably only spend a total of 90 minutes to 2 hours lifting a week, excluding the rowing. But I'm super consistent with it. If I get sick or injured for a week or two, I can really see a difference quickly. Perhaps that's my age (57), but it seems to leave quickly!

cwolfman13

@AnnPT77 @MikePfirrman

A bit off topic...what would be a good amount of time on a rower...not so much for a big cardio workout, but more of a cross train kind of thing. I just started Ortho-therapy (combo of PT, Chiro, Massage, Acupuncture, and Sports Medicine) this past Tuesday and my guy thinks my issues are primarily a result of upper body muscular imbalances as a result of years of endurance cycling, despite also weight training. Basically, my traps, chest, lats and deltoids are pulling everything forward and my back isn't strong enough to compensate (despite the fact for every push I do a pull in the weight room).

He's going to go over some things more at our next appointment next Tuesday, but he mentioned to me that he would like me to only ride 3-4 days per week and to have one of those rides be trail or mountain rather than road so I'm not sitting in a more or less static position for long periods of time. He's also going to go over my lifting routine which he took a quick glance at and thought it was overall sound but he has some ideas for adding some more pulling isolation movements specific to my issues as well as dropping a few things, at least for a bit.

He also mentioned doing some cross training with rowing or possibly swimming...basically something that is the opposite of leaning over my handle bars everyday. I sold my air rower because I never used it, but my gym has 3 or 4 water rowers and I was thinking maybe 10-15 minutes or so of that after the weight room on my lifting days...again, not necessarily looking for a big cardio workout, just something extra cross training wise. I'm going to talk to him more about it Tuesday, but my problem is limited time. I go to the gym at lunch on Tuesdays and Thursdays and my lifting routine takes me about 40 minutes so I could probably get away with 10-15 minutes of rowing and still make it back to the office as the gym is right around the corner. I'm just not particularly familiar with rowing (though I did some classes years back) and I always kind of get locked into these mindsets of "10-15 minutes? Is that even worth doing" kinda thing.

AnnPT77

cwolfman13 wrote: »

@AnnPT77 @MikePfirrman

A bit off topic...what would be a good amount of time on a rower...not so much for a big cardio workout, but more of a cross train kind of thing. I just started Ortho-therapy (combo of PT, Chiro, Massage, Acupuncture, and Sports Medicine) this past Tuesday and my guy thinks my issues are primarily a result of upper body muscular imbalances as a result of years of endurance cycling, despite also weight training. Basically, my traps, chest, lats and deltoids are pulling everything forward and my back isn't strong enough to compensate (despite the fact for every push I do a pull in the weight room).

He's going to go over some things more at our next appointment next Tuesday, but he mentioned to me that he would like me to only ride 3-4 days per week and to have one of those rides be trail or mountain rather than road so I'm not sitting in a more or less static position for long periods of time. He's also going to go over my lifting routine which he took a quick glance at and thought it was overall sound but he has some ideas for adding some more pulling isolation movements specific to my issues as well as dropping a few things, at least for a bit.

He also mentioned doing some cross training with rowing or possibly swimming...basically something that is the opposite of leaning over my handle bars everyday. I sold my air rower because I never used it, but my gym has 3 or 4 water rowers and I was thinking maybe 10-15 minutes or so of that after the weight room on my lifting days...again, not necessarily looking for a big cardio workout, just something extra cross training wise. I'm going to talk to him more about it Tuesday, but my problem is limited time. I go to the gym at lunch on Tuesdays and Thursdays and my lifting routine takes me about 40 minutes so I could probably get away with 10-15 minutes of rowing and still make it back to the office as the gym is right around the corner. I'm just not particularly familiar with rowing (though I did some classes years back) and I always kind of get locked into these mindsets of "10-15 minutes? Is that even worth doing" kinda thing.

It can't hurt, but IMO rowing is a slow boat to muscular change (though I think most of any small amount of muscle I have is from rowing, primarily). Since you want to keep your CV fitness up while maybe reducing your biking some, though, it could be useful.

I'm probably bigoted, but what I worry about with suggesting people take up rowing is that it's more technical than most people think, and there's relatively little good instruction. (Most gym trainers I've seen do it don't do it well, and I've even seen some terrible examples from instructors at rowing-centric places like Orange Theory and such.) It's not intuitive.

With proper technique, rowing is pretty great. Without proper technique, it's hard to get a decent workout (especially hard for the workouts to be progressive), and easier to self-injure. Perhaps your class was one of the good ones, though, because there are some out there, for sure.

!0-15 minutes can be fairly useful, if the right preconditions are in place. I tend to row slowly (in strokes per minute, high teens/low 20s even if at high-ish intensity for me). It's more common to do workout-type rows at spm in mid-20s to maybe low 30s. At a 26 (spm), that's 260 lower-push/upper-pull movements in 10 minutes . . . reasonably high reps. With good technique, that can be pretty intense (i.e., require more applied strength) and be progressive over time. (Obviously, the more intense, the more cumulative fatigue penalty, blah blah blah - but you know all that stuff, and how to find your sweet spot subjectively.)

It's technique that increases/enables resistance, and spm and power per stroke aren't tightly linked. The C2s have a damper setting that people imagine is resistance, but it really isn't. The rower (person) creates the resistance, because increasing speed requires increased power (in something more than linear progression). I think the water rowers' equivalent to damper setting is the water level in the tank, but I don't know if they have additional mechanisms.

I don't know the technical stats for water rowers, but with a 2:00 split (which Mike can do, I can't for long!) on a C2, you're at 202W-ish average, and about 997 calories/hour (175 pound person) so there's something going on. (Of course, a big fraction of the power is leg push.)

Personally, I think it's kind of boring to just go for X minutes, so it can help to pick a technical focus or some kind of interval approach (a lot of my friends like 20 strokes hard, 6 strokes easy, for example; or rating pyramids like 2' at 22, 2' at 24, 2' at 26, 2' at 30, then back down with 2' each at the 36, 24, 22 or whatever).

I admit, I have trouble wrapping my head around only rowing for 10-15 minutes, other than as a warm-up, but that's a bias that comes from my particular experiences. I think it definitely can be worth doing, in a different person's different context. (Boats are more fun, though 😉.)

cwolfman13

AnnPT77 wrote: »

cwolfman13 wrote: »

@AnnPT77 @MikePfirrman

A bit off topic...what would be a good amount of time on a rower...not so much for a big cardio workout, but more of a cross train kind of thing. I just started Ortho-therapy (combo of PT, Chiro, Massage, Acupuncture, and Sports Medicine) this past Tuesday and my guy thinks my issues are primarily a result of upper body muscular imbalances as a result of years of endurance cycling, despite also weight training. Basically, my traps, chest, lats and deltoids are pulling everything forward and my back isn't strong enough to compensate (despite the fact for every push I do a pull in the weight room).

He's going to go over some things more at our next appointment next Tuesday, but he mentioned to me that he would like me to only ride 3-4 days per week and to have one of those rides be trail or mountain rather than road so I'm not sitting in a more or less static position for long periods of time. He's also going to go over my lifting routine which he took a quick glance at and thought it was overall sound but he has some ideas for adding some more pulling isolation movements specific to my issues as well as dropping a few things, at least for a bit.

He also mentioned doing some cross training with rowing or possibly swimming...basically something that is the opposite of leaning over my handle bars everyday. I sold my air rower because I never used it, but my gym has 3 or 4 water rowers and I was thinking maybe 10-15 minutes or so of that after the weight room on my lifting days...again, not necessarily looking for a big cardio workout, just something extra cross training wise. I'm going to talk to him more about it Tuesday, but my problem is limited time. I go to the gym at lunch on Tuesdays and Thursdays and my lifting routine takes me about 40 minutes so I could probably get away with 10-15 minutes of rowing and still make it back to the office as the gym is right around the corner. I'm just not particularly familiar with rowing (though I did some classes years back) and I always kind of get locked into these mindsets of "10-15 minutes? Is that even worth doing" kinda thing.

It can't hurt, but IMO rowing is a slow boat to muscular change (though I think most of any small amount of muscle I have is from rowing, primarily). Since you want to keep your CV fitness up while maybe reducing your biking some, though, it could be useful.

I'm probably bigoted, but what I worry about with suggesting people take up rowing is that it's more technical than most people think, and there's relatively little good instruction. (Most gym trainers I've seen do it don't do it well, and I've even seen some terrible examples from instructors at rowing-centric places like Orange Theory and such.) It's not intuitive.

With proper technique, rowing is pretty great. Without proper technique, it's hard to get a decent workout (especially hard for the workouts to be progressive), and easier to self-injure. Perhaps your class was one of the good ones, though, because there are some out there, for sure.

!0-15 minutes can be fairly useful, if the right preconditions are in place. I tend to row slowly (in strokes per minute, high teens/low 20s even if at high-ish intensity for me). It's more common to do workout-type rows at spm in mid-20s to maybe low 30s. At a 26 (spm), that's 260 lower-push/upper-pull movements in 10 minutes . . . reasonably high reps. With good technique, that can be pretty intense (i.e., require more applied strength) and be progressive over time. (Obviously, the more intense, the more cumulative fatigue penalty, blah blah blah - but you know all that stuff, and how to find your sweet spot subjectively.)

It's technique that increases/enables resistance, and spm and power per stroke aren't tightly linked. The C2s have a damper setting that people imagine is resistance, but it really isn't. The rower (person) creates the resistance, because increasing speed requires increased power (in something more than linear progression). I think the water rowers' equivalent to damper setting is the water level in the tank, but I don't know if they have additional mechanisms.

I don't know the technical stats for water rowers, but with a 2:00 split (which Mike can do, I can't for long!) on a C2, you're at 202W-ish average, and about 997 calories/hour (175 pound person) so there's something going on. (Of course, a big fraction of the power is leg push.)

Personally, I think it's kind of boring to just go for X minutes, so it can help to pick a technical focus or some kind of interval approach (a lot of my friends like 20 strokes hard, 6 strokes easy, for example; or rating pyramids like 2' at 22, 2' at 24, 2' at 26, 2' at 30, then back down with 2' each at the 36, 24, 22 or whatever).

I admit, I have trouble wrapping my head around only rowing for 10-15 minutes, other than as a warm-up, but that's a bias that comes from my particular experiences. I think it definitely can be worth doing, in a different person's different context. (Boats are more fun, though 😉.)

That's kinda where I'm at with it in general...and with most exercise in general. I know it won't hurt, but I wonder if it really makes any practical, material difference to anything at my current fitness level. I would agree that water is more fun...haven't done any actual rowing type of rowing, but I like kayaking and canoe. We just bought a couple inflatable kayaks for this summer for weekends on the river which should be fun and something different.

Right now I'm doing some rucking a couple of days per week and maybe I just stick with that for awhile in between sessions on the bike. My guy wants to get all of this cleared up and well on my way to just being able to perform pain free before I do any kind of cycling events or spending significant time in the saddle...I'm not doing anything major, but I had back to back Sat/Sun 25 mile rides as part of the Santa Fe Century weekend in May (Sat Gravel Grinder/Sun Road Ride) so I'll guess we'll see how that goes. Right now he wants me to keep my road cycling to 30-45 minutes a few times per week...MTB and trail riding is a little different because I'm moving my entire body around a lot more and I'm on and off the bike a lot more so it's a lot less continuous stress on specific points on my body...I also stop and rest and take in the scenery and take pictures and whatnot, whereas on the road bike I'm just going straight ahead and crushing miles and time or doing intervals.

Once we open our pool for the season I can swim...it's not laps, but chasing the kids around and diving down for "treasure" for an hour is a pretty good and playful workout.

I'm sorta leaning to the rowing being a waste of time for any functional practical purposes if it's only 10-15 minutes...I was kinda there to begin with. It would be after my lifting session, so I'm already pretty fatigued anyway.

AnnPT77

cwolfman13 wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

cwolfman13 wrote: »

@AnnPT77 @MikePfirrman

A bit off topic...what would be a good amount of time on a rower...not so much for a big cardio workout, but more of a cross train kind of thing. I just started Ortho-therapy (combo of PT, Chiro, Massage, Acupuncture, and Sports Medicine) this past Tuesday and my guy thinks my issues are primarily a result of upper body muscular imbalances as a result of years of endurance cycling, despite also weight training. Basically, my traps, chest, lats and deltoids are pulling everything forward and my back isn't strong enough to compensate (despite the fact for every push I do a pull in the weight room).

He's going to go over some things more at our next appointment next Tuesday, but he mentioned to me that he would like me to only ride 3-4 days per week and to have one of those rides be trail or mountain rather than road so I'm not sitting in a more or less static position for long periods of time. He's also going to go over my lifting routine which he took a quick glance at and thought it was overall sound but he has some ideas for adding some more pulling isolation movements specific to my issues as well as dropping a few things, at least for a bit.

He also mentioned doing some cross training with rowing or possibly swimming...basically something that is the opposite of leaning over my handle bars everyday. I sold my air rower because I never used it, but my gym has 3 or 4 water rowers and I was thinking maybe 10-15 minutes or so of that after the weight room on my lifting days...again, not necessarily looking for a big cardio workout, just something extra cross training wise. I'm going to talk to him more about it Tuesday, but my problem is limited time. I go to the gym at lunch on Tuesdays and Thursdays and my lifting routine takes me about 40 minutes so I could probably get away with 10-15 minutes of rowing and still make it back to the office as the gym is right around the corner. I'm just not particularly familiar with rowing (though I did some classes years back) and I always kind of get locked into these mindsets of "10-15 minutes? Is that even worth doing" kinda thing.

It can't hurt, but IMO rowing is a slow boat to muscular change (though I think most of any small amount of muscle I have is from rowing, primarily). Since you want to keep your CV fitness up while maybe reducing your biking some, though, it could be useful.

I'm probably bigoted, but what I worry about with suggesting people take up rowing is that it's more technical than most people think, and there's relatively little good instruction. (Most gym trainers I've seen do it don't do it well, and I've even seen some terrible examples from instructors at rowing-centric places like Orange Theory and such.) It's not intuitive.

With proper technique, rowing is pretty great. Without proper technique, it's hard to get a decent workout (especially hard for the workouts to be progressive), and easier to self-injure. Perhaps your class was one of the good ones, though, because there are some out there, for sure.

!0-15 minutes can be fairly useful, if the right preconditions are in place. I tend to row slowly (in strokes per minute, high teens/low 20s even if at high-ish intensity for me). It's more common to do workout-type rows at spm in mid-20s to maybe low 30s. At a 26 (spm), that's 260 lower-push/upper-pull movements in 10 minutes . . . reasonably high reps. With good technique, that can be pretty intense (i.e., require more applied strength) and be progressive over time. (Obviously, the more intense, the more cumulative fatigue penalty, blah blah blah - but you know all that stuff, and how to find your sweet spot subjectively.)

It's technique that increases/enables resistance, and spm and power per stroke aren't tightly linked. The C2s have a damper setting that people imagine is resistance, but it really isn't. The rower (person) creates the resistance, because increasing speed requires increased power (in something more than linear progression). I think the water rowers' equivalent to damper setting is the water level in the tank, but I don't know if they have additional mechanisms.

I don't know the technical stats for water rowers, but with a 2:00 split (which Mike can do, I can't for long!) on a C2, you're at 202W-ish average, and about 997 calories/hour (175 pound person) so there's something going on. (Of course, a big fraction of the power is leg push.)

Personally, I think it's kind of boring to just go for X minutes, so it can help to pick a technical focus or some kind of interval approach (a lot of my friends like 20 strokes hard, 6 strokes easy, for example; or rating pyramids like 2' at 22, 2' at 24, 2' at 26, 2' at 30, then back down with 2' each at the 36, 24, 22 or whatever).

I admit, I have trouble wrapping my head around only rowing for 10-15 minutes, other than as a warm-up, but that's a bias that comes from my particular experiences. I think it definitely can be worth doing, in a different person's different context. (Boats are more fun, though 😉.)

That's kinda where I'm at with it in general...and with most exercise in general. I know it won't hurt, but I wonder if it really makes any practical, material difference to anything at my current fitness level. I would agree that water is more fun...haven't done any actual rowing type of rowing, but I like kayaking and canoe. We just bought a couple inflatable kayaks for this summer for weekends on the river which should be fun and something different.

Right now I'm doing some rucking a couple of days per week and maybe I just stick with that for awhile in between sessions on the bike. My guy wants to get all of this cleared up and well on my way to just being able to perform pain free before I do any kind of cycling events or spending significant time in the saddle...I'm not doing anything major, but I had back to back Sat/Sun 25 mile rides as part of the Santa Fe Century weekend in May (Sat Gravel Grinder/Sun Road Ride) so I'll guess we'll see how that goes. Right now he wants me to keep my road cycling to 30-45 minutes a few times per week...MTB and trail riding is a little different because I'm moving my entire body around a lot more and I'm on and off the bike a lot more so it's a lot less continuous stress on specific points on my body...I also stop and rest and take in the scenery and take pictures and whatnot, whereas on the road bike I'm just going straight ahead and crushing miles and time or doing intervals.

Once we open our pool for the season I can swim...it's not laps, but chasing the kids around and diving down for "treasure" for an hour is a pretty good and playful workout.

I'm sorta leaning to the rowing being a waste of time for any functional practical purposes if it's only 10-15 minutes...I was kinda there to begin with. It would be after my lifting session, so I'm already pretty fatigued anyway.

That wasn't really the message I was trying to leave you with, but obviously it's your call.

If you have decent technique (or can get decent correction/instruction), then I think it could be useful, if it fits into your schedule well. My core message was that thing about 260 reps of lower-push/upper pull in ten minutes. That's a few reps, and there is resistance . . . with decent technique, pretty much a variable level of resistance up to fairly intense, as fatigue-management allows.

ETA: The "hard to wrap my mind around" comes from my being soooo rowing-oriented, rowing as the main show, etc. As you might know from another thread, I'm currently doing 5 x (2k on 2' row out, drink water, row in), so approximately an hour of rowing at my li'l ol' lady pace. Shorter times can for sure be valuable, it's just not the spot where I live, y'know? 😉

MikePfirrman

I just saw this. Look, I'm like Ann -- super biased toward rowing. But it took me like five years to get just decent at form and then, over the course of a disc injury, my form went to hell and I'm just getting it back.

Like Ann mentioned, 15 minutes (or even 10) is great on the rower with proper form (just working on it constantly and being aware).

I've personally found, after years of trying, a sweet spot for Steady State where my HR isn't drifting up too much -- but that took a long time. Using it an hour at a time like I do isn't something that many do, to be honest. Most rowers row 30 minutes at a time tops. 30 minute row w/ a SR (stroke rate) of 20 is one of the most common workouts.

It is a nice compliment to the bike. Even 10 to 15 minutes can be either a nice way to get some additional work in or a brutally hard workout (2K is around 8 to 10 minutes for most folks -- there's nothing worse than an all out 2K except perhaps a 5K or 10K).

Today I started with 500m sprints/1 minute rest X 8 -- that was only 24 minutes or so and I was crushed (did a 30 minute slow C/D after). But that's a brutal workout. 900 calories in an hour. But that's my hardest of the week.

Rowing works quads, glutes, back, abs, traps, lats and triceps all really well. For me, like I mentioned above, the lats part helps hide where my weight goes first -- the belly! My lats look great and they didn't before rowing. But I have to balance out those muscles with a lot of chest and shoulder work a couple of days a week. I also still do some deadlifting as well to build rowing power and more composition.

Rucking is fantastic. I also like Assault Bikes, Endless Rope machines, SkiErgs -- I think you're a lot like me in that you're wanting to work hard with limited hours spent on doing it -- efficiency along with effective use of time.

primalsarah

Just wanted to say thanks to this thread for the discussion! It has helped me put into view to have a strength training first approach to my my work outs right now. I lifted 3 times this week and feel great. That with 15k steps running after my kids and doing yard work 😊.

ciaoder

@primalsarah getting it done!

If you have some resistance training in your past, you might be quick to regain some of that lean mass. You might find that lean strong aesthetic you want without cutting to 130. A straight up recomp at 139 is a very good possibility your case, especially if you're doing the traditional compound lifts under the barbell.

I always recommend resistance training before cardio if you're training under a barbell/free weights to maintain best possible form. It's not really an issue if you're working machines.

HIIT is a great tool with a specific place in macrocycle periodization (jump starting VO2 capacity) and can be useful for sneaking in an intense workout quickly when you're really crunched for time, but I agree with the group that HIIT shouldn't be anybody's go-to cardio plan all the time.