You don't have to do it well, or 'correctly' - you just need to DO IT.

wunderkindking

Time and again I see long term posters hammering on using a food scale, picking the right entries, being as accurate as you possibly can. I don't disagree with them. These are good things to do and will help you have the most predictable results - and if you're hitting a stall (of more than 6 weeks) these are the places you need to start to figure out what's going on.

HOWEVER.

Logging your food with cups and spoons and eyeballed estimates or someone else's recipe is better than not logging your food. Odds are very, very good that if you are very overweight or obese, that you have a big enough deficit AND a high enough calorie allowance that you will neither eat so little as to make yourself ill OR so much overage that you won't lose at all.

You can tighten up the logging, add the exercise, work out the individual numbers for you, worry more about hitting your protein goals - some or none of those things - once you have hit a wall on loss or fitness or you just WANT to do more.

Doing it *consistently* ultimately matters more than doing it 'right'. DO IT BADLY every single day and you will get a heck of a lot further than doing it perfectly, getting frustrated and exhausted and quitting after a week.

Log all your food to the best of your ability/best guess/measurement with tools you don't find onerous to do. Move in some way you like. Just keep doing those things and if the rest of the 'right' sounds overwhelming or like work -- don't do that.

Doing it badly is better than not doing it.

ReenieHJ

I agree you don't have to be obsessive about it but sometimes it's that closer scrutiny that helps people control themselves and stay committed. I once saw someone's diary that listed all kinds of spices, etc., and I could never be that committed or dedicated but if I try to eyeball too much or go a couple days without logging calories, I find myself teetering on the edge of getting way too lazy about it.
But you're right, I don't log every single thing in exactly perfect, but I always come in lower than my allowed calories so I have a little margin for error.

wunderkindking

ReenieHJ wrote: »

I agree you don't have to be obsessive about it but sometimes it's that closer scrutiny that helps people control themselves and stay committed. I once saw someone's diary that listed all kinds of spices, etc., and I could never be that committed or dedicated but if I try to eyeball too much or go a couple days without logging calories, I find myself teetering on the edge of getting way too lazy about it.
But you're right, I don't log every single thing in exactly perfect, but I always come in lower than my allowed calories so I have a little margin for error.

Yeah, and I do think that sometimes you need to scrutinize more but starting from 'not looking at all' even knowing what your calorie limit is and rough amounts gets you going. Most people get closer as they go, and I think well-

Sort of that whole thing about '...if you can't manage a whole shower because you're super depressed, washing your face is a victory.'

And also some people are going to need a lot more precision than others to get to where they really want to be but starting at really overweight or obese, if they're not playing 'lowest entry I can find AND a cheat day' a little half-hearted research and middle of the road entries will get them SOME results. that 1000 calorie a day deficit for the more intense weight loss when you're very, very overweight leaves a lot of room for rounding errors over time, even if they were all UNDERestimating and they're usually not.

goal06082021

You're not wrong - doing it badly is better than not at all, building the habit is more important than getting it 100% perfect from the jump. However, I would posit that doing it badly can also lead to discouragement and giving up when it "doesn't work." There is a learning curve, for counting calories in general and for using this specific website/app in particular to do that; there are known pain points and common challenges. I recognize not everyone will feel this way but perhaps some folks can take solace in the idea that lots of people have struggled in exactly the same way with exactly the same things in this process, to the point that the community has extensive resources for troubleshooting why it's "not working" before someone has to give even the first piece of information about their specific situation. A lot of those reasons do boil down to user error, and I get that it can feel discouraging to be told "it's not working because you're doing it wrong," but that's not an indictment of you as a person. The theory of weight management is fairly simple, but the practice is made more challenging by the fact that we're all running on 10,000-year-old software that hasn't been patched to account for modern conveniences like powered transportation, drive-thrus, and DoorDash.

AnnPT77

I think it's fine to approximate (even though it's not what I do, mostly) . . . as long as that keeps working. Best strategies are always personalized, tailored to the individual IMO.

I think some of the guidance from the "very strict" camp is useful, even for approximaters (and I suspect you might agree): If one is approximating, but is logging, they still should avoid using other people's random imprecise recipe entries, and/or pick an "middling" to "middle-high" entry from among a list of candidates entries in the database, and that sort of thing. Shopping for and scheming to find the lowest-calorie possible candidate entries to log is completely counterproductive, wishful thinking, mistaking the metric for the reality when it's the reality that matters. (Some people do that, though.)

A lot of the threads where accuracy comes up are the ones with a "not losing as expected" theme. In that specific context, I think many people would be well-served to get compulsive about detailed, accurate logging for a few weeks (whole menstrual cycle for women to whom that applies), simply as a diagnostic, if doing so doesn't cause anxiety or obsession. (Unlike some experienced folks around here, I do think it's possible to under-eat to a degree that slows scale-weight loss well below expected rate, from a combination of fatigue, adaptive thermogenesis, and creeping stress-related water retention. Extremely accurate logging can help sort those cases from other issues that require dramatically different solutions.)

I also think it's normal, in posts we might start ourselves, and to some extent in replies to others, to assume that what works for us will work better for others, and to write accordingly.

I try to remember, when posting a "tighten your logging" recommendation, to mention that tight logging isn't universally and permanently essential, that approximating can work (until it doesn't, maybe), and that meticulous perfectionism may be destructive psychologically for some. (I think it's important to be open minded and realistic in advice . . . but it's also not well accepted by the audience to get detailed every time about the caveats/exceptions - said as someone inclined to over-explain, having seen the results.)

It's also pretty normal for any/all of us to read selectively, to over-notice or over-generalize things that either support our opinions (confirmation bias) or get under our skin because we so disagree with them.

I agree with the gist of your OP, that approximate logging is better than not logging at all, and would maybe go further to it being fine as long as it works for a person. Not sure I agree with an unqualified "Time and again I see long term posters hammering on using a food scale", etc., though. Does it come up? Yes. Repeatedly? Yes. Personally, I don't think it's unconditional or "hammered", more than would be reasonably expected on a site that's focused on calorie counting. 🤷‍♀️

Opalescent_Topaz

I think, like several people said, it's always going to be personal. I myself benefit from a mix of being extremely precise most of the time and relaxing when I need to (for example, when I just don't have access to the information, like when I go to someone else's house for dinner or something). However, if I relax too often, I stop seeing progress on the scale, so I only do that when I have to.

When I get into real trouble is when I just stop logging. I gained back 20 of my 42 pounds lost by just not logging anymore. Life got busy and I just neglected this very important self-care activity. Maybe it would have been better to just have logged and have been less precise. Then the scale creep would have looked more like 10 pounds instead of 20. Who knows?

I guess this is just an echo of different things work for different folks, so people usually just take a minute to find their groove which may include needing to tighten up their logging if they aren't losing weight.

PAV8888

I was just "doing it" before finding mfp. In fact I went looking for "something" because I was ready to give up on yet another "increase my activity while reducing my food intake" attempt back in 2014.

Just as I had eventually given up on many previous short lived or longer lived weight loss attempts.

You know the drill? Lose 10, 20, 30 lbs.... re-gain it all back within the year plus a bit more?

It is now 2022. What was different?

Well many things to be honest.

But the starting point was moving away from me just trying to eat as little as I could while moving as much as I could.

And focusing instead into making "smarter", more filling, more satiating, and more personally satisfying choices within an appropriately and more reasonably defined, reviewed, and adjusted as needed caloric budget.

Would a person who didn't log as accurately as me have been able to succeed?

Absolutely yes, if they were able to develop the self insights I was able to develop for myself because of logging.

Really, all you need to know is whether the scale is moving, as a trend, in the appropriate direction at an appropriate speed.

How you achieve that is up to you.

But there is quite a bit in the details.
And I've seldom heard of people who require the degree of weight intervention you describe (as you don't seem to be taking about "vanity lbs") not having to do some work on developing self insights and strategies.

Does (accurate) logging have to be one of them?

No

But developing *sustainable to the individual* long term methods of achieving appropriate caloric balance does for anything but short term success

wunderkindking

Ahem.

I don't disagree with them. These are good things to do and will help you have the most predictable results - and if you're hitting a stall (of more than 6 weeks) these are the places you need to start to figure out what's going on.


You can tighten up the logging, add the exercise, work out the individual numbers for you, worry more about hitting your protein goals - some or none of those things - once you have hit a wall


Doing it badly is better than not doing it.

So, yeah, I'd say it safe to say that while I didn't enormously elaborate given that half my post is literally 'better than nothing' and 'a good place to start' and 'this is where you go when you aren't having results' to a maybe three sentences of 'just do something' that I don't actually disagree with anyone.

But the lengthy discussion of points I glossed past is nice!

AnnPT77

Afterthought: Strictly speaking, you don't even have to "Do It" to lose weight, if "It" is calorie counting or food logging. It's useful, but optional.

I'm ancient, from the olden days, from times pre-apps when it was totally impractical to calorie count. (Some of us tried to look up calories in a little book to count them, in the 1970s, but it was ridiculous. Not sensibly achievable.)

But guess what? People lost weight, if they committed to it. They cut back their portion size, they avoided high-calorie foods (of course we knew generally what those were, even without knowing the exact numbers). Specifically, my dad lost weight that way, though that was probably in the 1980s, when he was in his 60s. I don't know how much he lost, but going from appearance, it was several tens of pounds, at least. And he kept it off, long term, thereafter - decades. No counting, no logging. Eat less, watch the scale, adjust: That's all.

For centuries, people have understood that if they fed livestock more, it got fatter, or if they fed it less, it leaned out; and they had an idea about how to shift more of that livestock's weight to muscle vs. fat (or the reverse). They could and did apply that knowledge to humans, when necessary. And we've known about calories since . . . hmm, I think it was at least mid/late 19th century? . . . even if it wasn't practical to count them.

I don't know why the so-called obesity crisis has come on, and accelerated, in parallel with semi-accurate calorie counting becoming a practical tool for regular people, but it has worked out that way. 🤷‍♀️

robertw486

I've never owned a food scale, and probably never will. And I agree with the "just do it" for many people. But it's highly individual as well. I tend to overestimate intake and underestimate exercise, simply as a byproduct of keeping myself honest. But others will do the opposite, maybe still thinking they are being just as honest.

But when I see absolutes in these discussions, I shy away from them usually. Because what works for some doesn't for others. I've seen so many absolutes that might be true for the person stating them, and matter little to many others.

But doing it badly is better than not doing it.... that I can agree with. We don't have to be perfect, we just have to make progress towards a goal.

ReenieHJ

We don't have to 100% agree or disagree, opinions and discussion can matter so much in our lives. I love a good discussion to see what other people think, doesn't mean I have to take all of what they say and make it work for me. I'll always take what I can use and let somebody else handle the rest.

I have learned this though. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing approach. It doesn't have to be 100% all the time to make it to the goal line. But it cannot be only a 10% win either cause then it'll take you decades to get there and that's when frustration and impatience kick in, then one is apt to give in.

I had a challenging week last week, lots of eating out and ice cream. I failed to count calories most of the week and never bothered to step on the scales either. With that reluctance to face the truth I also neglected walking most of those days. It was a week. Tomorrow morning will be my reckoning by stepping on the scale once again. Then I'll deal with it. The week wasn't a total disaster, just outside of my desirable realm of effort. I refuse to get so obsessed with every teaspoon of this or ounce of that. To ME, it takes the enjoyment out of eating, which I happen to enjoy. But that's how it's become for me. If I stray too far for too long, that's when I run into trouble. But for the most part, I will eyeball stuff and usually (hopefully) overestimate my calories or walk a little extra.
But it all boils down to, ya gotta do what works for YOU!!

springlering62

I think that’s true for those of us who started as obese.

I’m quite sure that my sucky logging for the first six months was laughable, as I was making an effort to go from 10,000+ to under 2,000/day. However inaccurate I was, simply being mindful and trying did help, and, most importantly,set me up for future maintenance.

But, and big but here, most of those “plateau” and “stall” posts are from those who are within twenty pounds of goal.

Sorry, but those folks are the ones who need to be paying attention.

That hundred or so calories a day can make the difference between a pound a month or stalling.

springlering62

@ReenieHJ some of the spices you see may be carrying over from logged “meals”.

I inlude spices when entering the master meal so I can make them again by just referring to the original entry. “Meals” are like recipe cards for many of us.

If you look at my Mon-Sat breakfast you’ll see fractional measurements of all kinds of whacko stuff In my pancakes because I usually eat .2 or .25 servings.

Same for the Greek salad I’ve prelogged for lunch.


😘

AnnPT77

I actually do log spices (or other low/zero calorie foods) sometimes, for two reasons. Sometimes, it's on account of wanting to look back at eating patterns so I don't have to try to remember. For example, for a while I was trying to increase culinary turmeric, then to see how much I happily ate, think about whether it would make sense to try supplementing.

The more common reason, probably, though is that I do better if I just log everything on autopilot, without turning it into a decision every time. It's psychologically annoying to me to turn every ingredient into a "enough to count?" decision, plus I'm much less likely to forget to weigh/log things I really want to be accurate about personally (like oils) if I'm simply logging everything automatically. I'm just not that mindful, when it comes to small stuff - I prefer autopilot.

The idea that doing this is some kind of obsessive, tightly controlling, or tightly disciplined behavior isn't universally accurate. I'm sure it would be for some, and that's fine. For me (and possibly some others, dunno), it's just the easiest and least stressful route to logging.

We don't see inside other people's heads. Looking at their behavior, and inferring that their reasons for doing X are the same reasons we'd have or need in order to do X . . . shaky, IMO.

ReenieHJ

springlering62 wrote: »

@ReenieHJ some of the spices you see may be carrying over from logged “meals”.

I inlude spices when entering the master meal so I can make them again by just referring to the original entry. “Meals” are like recipe cards for many of us.

If you look at my Mon-Sat breakfast you’ll see fractional measurements of all kinds of whacko stuff In my pancakes because I usually eat .2 or .25 servings.

Same for the Greek salad I’ve prelogged for lunch.


😘

Oh I never thought of that. Thank you and Ann for enlightening me. I just assumed they were counting calories. Makes good sense now.

BarbaraHelen2013

I’m someone who enters spices too, but I am doing it to count the calories rather than to provide a recipe for the future. Some spices are more calorific than others, admittedly, but they all do have some. If I’m making a complex dish it can have a significant (for me - even in maintenance) number of calories from the spices alone. Sometimes more than the calories of the main ingredients since I’m always making vegetarian dishes.

I’m also with Ann, in that I find it less problematic to just enter everything than pick and choose what’s worth it. The only thing I don’t ‘count’ is salt and fresh ground black pepper (except when the black pepper is the main spice, used by the multiple tablespoonful in some curries - then it is something I do count). 🤷‍♀️

kshama2001

wunderkindking wrote: »

Time and again I see long term posters hammering on using a food scale, picking the right entries, being as accurate as you possibly can. I don't disagree with them. These are good things to do and will help you have the most predictable results - and if you're hitting a stall (of more than 6 weeks) these are the places you need to start to figure out what's going on.

HOWEVER.

Logging your food with cups and spoons and eyeballed estimates or someone else's recipe is better than not logging your food. Odds are very, very good that if you are very overweight or obese, that you have a big enough deficit AND a high enough calorie allowance that you will neither eat so little as to make yourself ill OR so much overage that you won't lose at all.

You can tighten up the logging, add the exercise, work out the individual numbers for you, worry more about hitting your protein goals - some or none of those things - once you have hit a wall on loss or fitness or you just WANT to do more.

Doing it *consistently* ultimately matters more than doing it 'right'. DO IT BADLY every single day and you will get a heck of a lot further than doing it perfectly, getting frustrated and exhausted and quitting after a week.

Log all your food to the best of your ability/best guess/measurement with tools you don't find onerous to do. Move in some way you like. Just keep doing those things and if the rest of the 'right' sounds overwhelming or like work -- don't do that.

Doing it badly is better than not doing it.

Looks like this person has done it, I'm going to soften your "badly" to "not as accurately as possible" and is extremely frustrated about only losing 6 pounds last year. What advice would you give her?

https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10857034/need-advice-on