Health Management and Mental Health
Replies
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Reboot!!
Okay...Birthday weekend and was spoiled. Consequences....kicked out of Ketoville and up 2 kg. I do not feel too guilty and am surprisingly motivated to make August 1st 2022 a start day (again). Been here before but we cannot live in the past. I want/deserve to feel/be healthy and the challenge is ahead. I do not think it will ever be a straight line. Let's do this.
Birthdays are supposed to be fun, and that can involve a little indulgence, IMO. (Happy belated birthday!)
Also IMO: Straight lines are not essential, and can be pretty boring. Overall positive direction on average is just fine.
The majority of our days determines the majority of our outcome. Rare exceptions are a drop in the ocean.Hi everyone
Back in Ketoland. I know, I know. It must be boring hearing my roller coaster ride with Ketosis. I am sorry about that. It is just that Keto for me represents being "on the wagon". I wish I was more consistent. Day by day. I sure envy people who do not have to think about food endlessly. I wonder if it ever gets easier?Any thoughts?
Someone here - don't remember who - once typed "there is no wagon, so we can't fall off". That resonated with me.
You and I are in different spots (I'm in maintenance now) and have different outlooks/personalities (inevitably, because we're each individuals, right?).
For me, weight management meant more thoughts about food, but that was a positive.
Before I truly committed to manage my weight, I'd been pretty much shoving any food I encountered into my mouth and chewing. I didn't much matter whether it tasted excellent, made me feel good/energetic, or anything like that. If I didn't hate it, and it was there, I'd eat it.
When working from a "calorie budget" standpoint, it became much more important to me to choose things that I found yummy, that were nutritious (so made me feel good, over time), that were practical/affordable, and that were a good use of my calories in general (subjectively). That actually took more conscious attention, vs. the "shove it my mouth" method. But it was fun to think about seeking out yummy foods (visiting farmers markets more, for one), learning new ways to cook them, planning what I wanted to eat to maximize the value of my daily calories . . . kind of like a fun game?
That, in a context where - finally! - I realized that getting to a healthy weight and staying there was going to let future Ann have a healthier, happier life, too. It was a matter of balancing current pleasure with future well-being, and that does take a little thought. Seems worth it, to me.
YMMV, though. Best wishes, regardless - I think you're doing just fine. The only way to fail is if we give up. You're keeping going. That's great!
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What an awesome answer with some great strategies embedded in your helpful comments. Thank you. "balancing current pleasures with future well being". Love it!!!!Something about this approach resonates with me. I'm not completely sure I can implement the positive strategies as a "game" because it seems to real to me. This doesn't mean it's not a great metaphor. For me, I think it can be simplified to thinking about the "aim" and "purpose" of well being and just aligning my choices and decisions with a higher purpose and a better future. I think we need to remember our higher purposes and goals and untangle our confused and often dumb choices we make that completely take us off course. I will spend some time today thinking about the "bigger picture" and try and align myself with my higher goals. Make sense?
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What an awesome answer with some great strategies embedded in your helpful comments. Thank you. "balancing current pleasures with future well being". Love it!!!!Something about this approach resonates with me. I'm not completely sure I can implement the positive strategies as a "game" because it seems to real to me. This doesn't mean it's not a great metaphor. For me, I think it can be simplified to thinking about the "aim" and "purpose" of well being and just aligning my choices and decisions with a higher purpose and a better future. I think we need to remember our higher purposes and goals and untangle our confused and often dumb choices we make that completely take us off course. I will spend some time today thinking about the "bigger picture" and try and align myself with my higher goals. Make sense?
TBH, this is all pretty individual. I know this is weird, but I don't really have much sense of myself as having a higher purpose. As someone who's frankly pretty hedonistic, a key cognitive piece for me was realizing that my future self (in one sense) is a real person, and that she (I) will want to be happy later if I can, too - not fat, sick, dependent, etc. . . . as long as I can avoid it, anyway. When that clicked for me, it was pretty powerful, pretty persuasive.
I can understand thinking of positive strategies as a game only metaphorically, but to me the food and activity parts of it kind of are a game literally, too, just one with real-world rewards built in.
It's fun to mix and match foods to see how well I can optimize all of tastiness, nutrition, calorie appropriateness, ease of prep, affordability, etc. It's like Tetris - if you've ever played that - but with food characteristics instead of geometric shapes. I enjoy the process, and I get rewards when I do well at the mix'n'match - the rewards are enjoyment, energy, health, etc. Big stakes!
YMMV significantly, though: Personalization of the weight management process is a key to success, I think. We all have different preferences, strengths, challenges, so our strategies need to differ, too.1 -
"The majority of our days determines the majority of our outcome. Rare exceptions are a drop in the ocean."
Ooh I'll have to remember this! So simple, yet so true. Thanks Ann.
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The idea of making eating "fun" by mixing and matching and trying out new food types and preparation processes sounds reasonable. I suppose if those of us who really struggle with our old patterns and habits could break them and just introduce new eating and prep methodologies easily, we would have done that by now. This is one of my main concerns with fashionable diets and clever marketing schemes which makes it look simple and slick. If someone approaches the eating"game" in a healthy way, then it is most likely that he/she will incorporate the common-sense principles of effective calorie monitoring, and responsible eating without requiring a brain transplant. But.... for those of us that may find the process a bit more daunting, I think we may need a bit more time, attention and support in moving forward and discovering what really has to change to make the differences we are so desperate to experience.For me, it is an entire revision of my health landscape and how I treat myself and my body. I think it is about our relationship with ourselves and how eating has evolved as we have grown and developed. Food becomes our friend, lover, distractor and (at times) obsession. We have to be honest about that...Why else would we be on this forum? Let's respect the complexity of the challenge and proceed with caution AND make the necessary changes in a careful, gentle and honest way; with professional help, guidance and supervision. This is just my view and I would love to hear your feedback and opinions. Thanks for listening.
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I suppose if those of us who really struggle with our old patterns and habits could break them and just introduce new eating and prep methodologies easily, we would have done that by now.
Shel, I think virtually everyone here has struggled and nothing about getting to goal (and more importantly maintaining our weight loss for years) was easy or quick.
For me, breaking old habits and patterns was a tremendous amount of work, as it is for everyone, but I did it, not by trying to change my life overnight by being “on” a diet or “on” a program or “on” the wagon, but ny making very small, incremental changes to my habits that I could sustain over time. Over years these new habits have become my life, so there is no needing to get motivated, or “start over” because very slowly, one habit at a time, I changed the way I live my life. I still indulge, eat the foods I like, and enjoy my life, but I have learned to do it in a calorie range that maintains my weight.
That doesn’t mean I didn’t “struggle with old habits” and could “easily break them.” Most of us here know how to lose weight. We’ve done it a thousand times, right? We also know how to gain weight. Because our whole lives have been spent either being on a diet and losing or eating the way we “like” and gaining. But we have no idea how to just stay the same weight (whatever that weight is). Learning to maintain your weight is critical to being successful at weight loss, unless your definition of success does not include keeping the weight off. To actually lose weight and keep it off, forever (well for me 10 years) I had to VERY SLOWLY change one habit at a time in a way that I could sustain forever.
If this interests you, two podcasts that helped me and still help me are Half Size Me and We Only Look Thin. Best of luck to you and hope you find what you are looking for.1 -
@shel80kg, I think @ChickenKillerPuppy has given you a much better and more useful answer than I'd be capable of doing.
I agree with the strategies she suggests, and they're similar to what I did myself. I'd been overweight to obese for around 30 years, but I didn't change my exercise routine at all to lose weight - was already active; and didn't much change the general range of foods I ate - I just ate them in different portions, proportions on the plates, and reduced frequency of very calorie dense things.
I think it's useful to realize that everyone's reasons for over-eating can be very individual. I perceive myself as more hedonistic than as eating for emotional reasons (for example), and that implies different strategies.
But, to be explicit, I'm not making a value judgement about others' starting points. We need to manage or wrangle or persuade or game our individual selves, within our individual preferences, strengths or limitations, and everyone has to work through that at an individual level. Other people can offer ideas, but we need to figure out which will work for us.
As an aside, I think I'm not making my point clearly about what I'm finding fun in thinking about food, that feels like a fun game or a good thing for me. I fear it's coming across as me trivializing the effort any and all of us need to make, and that's not what I'm getting it. It's more that some aspects of the complexity of the challenge are intellectually and psychologically interesting to me because of the complexity, and working out the complexity is like a fun science fair experiment. But I don't know how to express myself in a different way. And it may not be true for others, even if it is for me.1 -
Dear Ann and Chicken
Thank you for your responses. Really helpful and poignant.I am impatient and easily frustrated; expecting results in an unrealistic manner. I appreciate the time you both spent clarifying and adding to my insight. I cannot thank you enough. Both posts were excellent.
Thank you
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I just found this thread and some of what you say resonates with me. I had to deal with the mental health aspects well before I could commit to any type of weight loss attempt. It started somewhere around winter 2017 and took a few years. It coincided with the body positivity movement so alongside learning to love myself as a person, I learned to love my body. Less about liking the look of every bump but more about appreciating what my body does for me, how this is just as much a part of me as the stuff in my head. There are still a few things I don't really like the look of but I needed to feel the peace of loving myself before I could add the stressor that is weight loss.
Then the pandemic hit and I figured I should be extra kind to myself. The only things I wanted to attempt were eating fruit more frequently and learning how to cook (since I moved out again near the start of the pandemic). During the pandemic I was entirely sedentary and unmotivated to exercise and I was gaining weight because of all these changes but these decisions to eat fruit and to cook well have made losing weight once I incorporated regular exercise very easy.
I have been overweight all my life and was always forced to watch what I eat but I never lost any weight and instead developed a horrible relationship with food. What I wanna say is I needed to unlearn all that and get into the right mindset to get where I am now, consistently losing. I don't personally obsess over a few days of eating at maintenance or even at a surplus and I don't think about food all day but it was a journey to get there and I had a lot of setbacks before I seriously started losing weight. And because I'm okay with me as I am and probably in large also because I have no health problems related to my weight, I find this whole thing somewhat of an experiment or game as well. It's freeing to know your maintenance range and your normal (water) weight fluctuations and the calories in things so you don't stress if you go 200 cals into a surplus once if you've been 500 cals into a deficit every other day that same week. It makes me feel like I'm in control and if I follow the plan to the best of my ability I'll get where I want to be. The game part for me is seeing what choices have which consequences and what rate of loss I prefer with which activity level.
I hope you can find an equally freeing method in keto. I know a lot of people who swear by it and who got amazing results so I hope your experience with it will be positive and stressfree.3 -
ChickenKillerPuppy wrote: »I suppose if those of us who really struggle with our old patterns and habits could break them and just introduce new eating and prep methodologies easily, we would have done that by now.
Shel, I think virtually everyone here has struggled and nothing about getting to goal (and more importantly maintaining our weight loss for years) was easy or quick.
For me, breaking old habits and patterns was a tremendous amount of work, as it is for everyone, but I did it, not by trying to change my life overnight by being “on” a diet or “on” a program or “on” the wagon, but ny making very small, incremental changes to my habits that I could sustain over time. Over years these new habits have become my life, so there is no needing to get motivated, or “start over” because very slowly, one habit at a time, I changed the way I live my life. I still indulge, eat the foods I like, and enjoy my life, but I have learned to do it in a calorie range that maintains my weight.
That doesn’t mean I didn’t “struggle with old habits” and could “easily break them.” Most of us here know how to lose weight. We’ve done it a thousand times, right? We also know how to gain weight. Because our whole lives have been spent either being on a diet and losing or eating the way we “like” and gaining. But we have no idea how to just stay the same weight (whatever that weight is). Learning to maintain your weight is critical to being successful at weight loss, unless your definition of success does not include keeping the weight off. To actually lose weight and keep it off, forever (well for me 10 years) I had to VERY SLOWLY change one habit at a time in a way that I could sustain forever.
If this interests you, two podcasts that helped me and still help me are Half Size Me and We Only Look Thin. Best of luck to you and hope you find what you are looking for.
I'm a fan of Half Size Me. If I were to pay anyone for weight loss advice, it would be Heather. Despite not being a dietitian, etc., she provides better advice that the multiple dietitians I've had available through my VA healthcare.
For example, the last one certainly sounded knowledgeable, but he sure wasn't picking up what I was putting down about fat. I have a medical condition that responds positively to reduced fat, which for me is right around the MFP default of 30%, which I told him. Several times.
He kept going on and on about healthy fats and pushing nuts, olive oil, etc., on me. I do eat these, but I have to LIMIT them, and he just wasn't getting that. I was able to find this funny, but only because I'm not paying for these visits, which are virtual, and so a small time commitment and no financial investment.2 -
Hello all, I am in a different spot now, having recently lost 70ish pounds using CICO and just being mindful and purposeful about my eating and drinking to get there. I don’t know if my experience is helpful to anyone or not, but i have been following this thread and admiring your thoughtful and inquisitive approach to your own weight loss ups and downs so maybe you can find something in what I say that helps.
First I didn”t follow any “diet” or any rules regulating what I can or can’t eat like keto or paleo or anything else. In fact when I started out I wasn’t even on mfp for the first 40+ pounds and I didn’t carefully measure or do any of the things I have been doing to properly do CICO since joining. I simply weighed myself daily, recorded my weight weekly, and became more attuned to my body and what I was eating. Now i measure and record calories accurately and keep to a deficit or maintenance depending on what is going on. Second, I didn’t set any “goal” other than losing weight generally. I didn’t even realize how much weight I had to lose, or actually how much I had lost until I went to my oncologist for a checkup and she told me I had lost 15 more lbs than I though I had because I didn’t ever know how much I weighed at my heaviest. Had I set a goal to lose 70 lbs or realized I had that much to lose I probably would have been overwhelmed.
I hear folks saying they are obsessed with food or want to break themselves of addictions to food. I think just as often people are eating when they are not hungry and to self soothe other problems. I quit drinking alcohol for health reasons in this same time frame, so am sympathetic to the difficulties of breaking all sorts of habits.
Regarding food…since you can only moderate, not abstain - Rather than try to think less about food I try to focus more mindfully on what I want to eat and how and when I want to eat it. Setting rules like you do in diets would be like white knuckling an addiction for me. Particularly when trying to lose weight I did things to eat even more mindfully, to focus on the taste of the food I am eating, and also to signal to myself when it is not time to eat (by closing up the kitchen, having mint tea etc). So for instance … I decided what I wanted to eat in advance, prepared it in a reasonable portion, ate it, if I thought I was hungry between meals, I stopped and thought about it first, and had a glass of water. I know these are things everyone has heard before, but for me it was about applying everything together in a specific mindset.
I enjoy cooking, but I have pared my cooking back to more simple meals with limited ingredients, but cook to highlight those ingredients (so that naturally limits use of heavy sauces, oils, condiments and unhealthful cooking methods that mask the ingredients and adds calories.) When I finish eating meals at home I immediately clean up the kitchen so that stuff isn’t left sitting around to nibble on, and so that the kitchen signals visually that it is not time to eat. In the evenings after dinner I have a cup of mint tea, and often go to bed early with a book or movie,. In the mornings I get up and have a “me time” phase of the morning before I read or respond to any outside electronic stimulus like work or even family emails. For me that can be meditation with the kitties, or a morning walk or swim, and bird feeding/watching. Then I wake my husband for tea/coffee and breakfast.
All of these things have a positive mental signaling element/mindfulness/health element to them, but they each also have a positive self care element to them. I cook more simply, but with better and more delicious/healthy ingredients, plus it is quicker and easier. I do the mindful kitchen clean up, but I get a constantly clean kitchen that is easy to keep clean (ok that one is a stretch to talk myself into ). Mint tea, and book in bed is all self care (usually also get husband and 2 kitties so extra points ….IF we dont fight about the thermostat ). And morning me time also all self care.
I think about food a lot, but in very positive and active ways— not trying to bat away thoughts of things I shouldn’t eat — I look forward to going to the farmers market, I read the cooking section of the newspaper for ideas, my husband and I try to go to restaurants as much as possible while caring for 2 elderly parents and another elderly relative in town. I bring those relatives food and cook for them. When any of us eat together we talk about the meal - what turned out well, what could be better, how to do it the next time, which of our friends and family would enjoy such a meal if we were to invite people over.
It was not terribly difficult to lose weight this way (and I am in my mid 50s well into menopause due to early chemo-induced menopause, and have had various post chemo health issues to contend with). I could not have lost weight with a regimented diet given all the people and circumstances I have to accommodate my eating to. I could not maintain a healthy outlook on life if my positive eating behaviors didn’t all have positive self care behaviors embedded in them. With those two elements combined there is no “white knuckling” or staying on the wagon. I am not in need of self soothing with food because my self care is already embedded in my approach to food and eating.
Sorry this was so long… all the best to all of you!
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The last few comments have helped me rethink the “game” metaphor and perhaps I have been reluctant to enjoy the transition from obsessive over-eater to thoughtful/mindful enjoyer of food. Why not enjoy healthy eating when it can include amazingly delicious choices without tons of sugars, processed chemicals and useless carbs. Time for me to go from “how hard this is” to “positive life style food choices”. Is this me really writing this? Oh my goodness. I think I might have had a breakthrough. Thank you posters. You made a difference to me today. Very kind and thoughtful.
Thank you3 -
I can’t help myself … I know you are doing keto and carbs are verboten but I have to comment on the “useless carbs” point. I eat a lot of carbs and I lost a lot of weight eating a lot of carbs. Often I go over the allotted carbs MFP sets (i never adjusted the preset macros). I don’t generally eat bread, pasta, rice, crackers, chips, potatoes. Not that I specifically avoid them, but that is just not what seems most exciting when I want to cook something delicious and actually spend some effort and be able to say “I made this delicious” rather than the big grocery company who baked or processed it made it that way. Also they take up a lot of my calorie allotment for less pleasure than they are usually worth. But I do sometimes make a delicious risotto or pasta dish and if you actually measure and eat a normal size serving it is totally fine and comes in around 500 calories with meat sauce or vegetables for instance.
So how do I go over on carbs all the time? vegetables, fruits and berries have significant amounts of carbs and they are a huge part of my diet — the majority of my diet. They are in no way useless, and they are what make my cooking beautiful, seasonal, fun, interesting to shop for, etc. and they are definitely part of the self care aspect of eating and cooking. I am sure you have heard the phrase “we eat with our eyes first” - the vegetables and herbs and fruits are what bring color and texture and most of the interesting and complex tastes to my plate. So if you are doing keto only because it makes you feel virtuous, rather than because you enjoy that style of eating and find it fun and sustainable, then I would encourage you to explore your local farmers market or produce aisle and find some colorful and interesting fruits and veggies as summer bounty is at its peak and enjoy those useful and healthful carbs!2 -
The last few comments have helped me rethink the “game” metaphor and perhaps I have been reluctant to enjoy the transition from obsessive over-eater to thoughtful/mindful enjoyer of food. Why not enjoy healthy eating when it can include amazingly delicious choices without tons of sugars, processed chemicals and useless carbs. Time for me to go from “how hard this is” to “positive life style food choices”. Is this me really writing this? Oh my goodness. I think I might have had a breakthrough. Thank you posters. You made a difference to me today. Very kind and thoughtful.
Thank you
In case you are interested:
You probably know that the hormone ghrelin is sometimes called "the hunger hormone", because it affects our drive to eat. In that connection, here's a research abstract that's just a little teaser about the importance of mindset:Objective: To test whether physiological satiation as measured by the gut peptide ghrelin may vary depending on the mindset in which one approaches consumption of food.
Methods: On 2 separate occasions, participants (n = 46) consumed a 380-calorie milkshake under the pretense that it was either a 620-calorie "indulgent" shake or a 140-calorie "sensible" shake. Ghrelin was measured via intravenous blood samples at 3 time points: baseline (20 min), anticipatory (60 min), and postconsumption (90 min). During the first interval (between 20 and 60 min) participants were asked to view and rate the (misleading) label of the shake. During the second interval (between 60 and 90 min) participants were asked to drink and rate the milkshake.
Results: The mindset of indulgence produced a dramatically steeper decline in ghrelin after consuming the shake, whereas the mindset of sensibility produced a relatively flat ghrelin response. Participants' satiety was consistent with what they believed they were consuming rather than the actual nutritional value of what they consumed.
Conclusions: The effect of food consumption on ghrelin may be psychologically mediated, and mindset meaningfully affects physiological responses to food.
Cite: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21574706/
This small study is discussed in an episode of Hidden Brain, along with a number of other studies that have involved mindset and its literal physiological (bodily) effects. Worth a bit of a think, maybe. Here's the episode:
https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/reframing-your-reality-part-2/
It's a little long (52 minutes), but IMO very interesting and applicable. There was also a part 1, more about mindset and stress response, i.e., more the psychology of mindset in part 1, vs. the impact on the body in part 2.2 -
What an awesome answer with some great strategies embedded in your helpful comments. Thank you. "balancing current pleasures with future well being". Love it!!!!Something about this approach resonates with me. I'm not completely sure I can implement the positive strategies as a "game" because it seems to real to me. This doesn't mean it's not a great metaphor. For me, I think it can be simplified to thinking about the "aim" and "purpose" of well being and just aligning my choices and decisions with a higher purpose and a better future. I think we need to remember our higher purposes and goals and untangle our confused and often dumb choices we make that completely take us off course. I will spend some time today thinking about the "bigger picture" and try and align myself with my higher goals. Make sense?
TBH, this is all pretty individual. I know this is weird, but I don't really have much sense of myself as having a higher purpose. As someone who's frankly pretty hedonistic, a key cognitive piece for me was realizing that my future self (in one sense) is a real person, and that she (I) will want to be happy later if I can, too - not fat, sick, dependent, etc. . . . as long as I can avoid it, anyway. When that clicked for me, it was pretty powerful, pretty persuasive.
I can understand thinking of positive strategies as a game only metaphorically, but to me the food and activity parts of it kind of are a game literally, too, just one with real-world rewards built in.
It's fun to mix and match foods to see how well I can optimize all of tastiness, nutrition, calorie appropriateness, ease of prep, affordability, etc. It's like Tetris - if you've ever played that - but with food characteristics instead of geometric shapes. I enjoy the process, and I get rewards when I do well at the mix'n'match - the rewards are enjoyment, energy, health, etc. Big stakes!
YMMV significantly, though: Personalization of the weight management process is a key to success, I think. We all have different preferences, strengths, challenges, so our strategies need to differ, too.
I've been logging off and on for over 10 years now. The Tetris / game aspect helps me stay diligent about logging. I'm currently working to not exceed my 30% fat goal as I have a medical condition that appreciates this, and I enjoy the challenge of seeing how much yummy food, including chocolate, I can fit in without exceeding my fat budget.1 -
Obviously, the "frequent responders" to most of the posts are extremely enthusiastic in reminding us of the"fun" of food selection and the advantages of certain foods rather than assuming some foods are good or bad. Look, I appreciate the suggestions and positive spins offered by those who have found their way. It just seems to me that the cliche approach (it doesn't happen overnight and it doesn't work for everyone etc.) just misses the deeper issues. If I could eat blue berries instead of potato chips just because blue berries are "better" carbs, I would absolutely have embraced that (low hanging fruit) option. I think, and I could be wrong, we have together a bit more serious about the relationship between our mind set/state and the importance we have placed on how, what, and when we eat. I would like this thread to really offer an opportunity into the relationship between our mental health and how are eating behaviours play out. I am so weary with having to think about food, weight, calories and now blue berries. There must be another way to approach this? Any creative thinkers out there that have a position on this? Look forward to hearing from you.
Shel
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The last few comments have helped me rethink the “game” metaphor and perhaps I have been reluctant to enjoy the transition from obsessive over-eater to thoughtful/mindful enjoyer of food. Why not enjoy healthy eating when it can include amazingly delicious choices without tons of sugars, processed chemicals and useless carbs. Time for me to go from “how hard this is” to “positive life style food choices”. Is this me really writing this? Oh my goodness. I think I might have had a breakthrough. Thank you posters. You made a difference to me today. Very kind and thoughtful.
Thank you
In case you are interested:
You probably know that the hormone ghrelin is sometimes called "the hunger hormone", because it affects our drive to eat. In that connection, here's a research abstract that's just a little teaser about the importance of mindset:Objective: To test whether physiological satiation as measured by the gut peptide ghrelin may vary depending on the mindset in which one approaches consumption of food.
Methods: On 2 separate occasions, participants (n = 46) consumed a 380-calorie milkshake under the pretense that it was either a 620-calorie "indulgent" shake or a 140-calorie "sensible" shake. Ghrelin was measured via intravenous blood samples at 3 time points: baseline (20 min), anticipatory (60 min), and postconsumption (90 min). During the first interval (between 20 and 60 min) participants were asked to view and rate the (misleading) label of the shake. During the second interval (between 60 and 90 min) participants were asked to drink and rate the milkshake.
Results: The mindset of indulgence produced a dramatically steeper decline in ghrelin after consuming the shake, whereas the mindset of sensibility produced a relatively flat ghrelin response. Participants' satiety was consistent with what they believed they were consuming rather than the actual nutritional value of what they consumed.
Conclusions: The effect of food consumption on ghrelin may be psychologically mediated, and mindset meaningfully affects physiological responses to food.
Cite: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21574706/
This small study is discussed in an episode of Hidden Brain, along with a number of other studies that have involved mindset and its literal physiological (bodily) effects. Worth a bit of a think, maybe. Here's the episode:
https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/reframing-your-reality-part-2/
It's a little long (52 minutes), but IMO very interesting and applicable. There was also a part 1, more about mindset and stress response, i.e., more the psychology of mindset in part 1, vs. the impact on the body in part 2.
I'm 36 minutes into Part 1 of Reframing Your Reality and finding it VERY useful. I have a quite stressful meeting coming up next week and hearing that "nervous arousal before a negotiation" can help one perform better is exactly what I needed to hear right now
A similar concept mentioned: "appraisal of arousal manipulation."1 -
kshama2001 wrote: »The last few comments have helped me rethink the “game” metaphor and perhaps I have been reluctant to enjoy the transition from obsessive over-eater to thoughtful/mindful enjoyer of food. Why not enjoy healthy eating when it can include amazingly delicious choices without tons of sugars, processed chemicals and useless carbs. Time for me to go from “how hard this is” to “positive life style food choices”. Is this me really writing this? Oh my goodness. I think I might have had a breakthrough. Thank you posters. You made a difference to me today. Very kind and thoughtful.
Thank you
In case you are interested:
You probably know that the hormone ghrelin is sometimes called "the hunger hormone", because it affects our drive to eat. In that connection, here's a research abstract that's just a little teaser about the importance of mindset:Objective: To test whether physiological satiation as measured by the gut peptide ghrelin may vary depending on the mindset in which one approaches consumption of food.
Methods: On 2 separate occasions, participants (n = 46) consumed a 380-calorie milkshake under the pretense that it was either a 620-calorie "indulgent" shake or a 140-calorie "sensible" shake. Ghrelin was measured via intravenous blood samples at 3 time points: baseline (20 min), anticipatory (60 min), and postconsumption (90 min). During the first interval (between 20 and 60 min) participants were asked to view and rate the (misleading) label of the shake. During the second interval (between 60 and 90 min) participants were asked to drink and rate the milkshake.
Results: The mindset of indulgence produced a dramatically steeper decline in ghrelin after consuming the shake, whereas the mindset of sensibility produced a relatively flat ghrelin response. Participants' satiety was consistent with what they believed they were consuming rather than the actual nutritional value of what they consumed.
Conclusions: The effect of food consumption on ghrelin may be psychologically mediated, and mindset meaningfully affects physiological responses to food.
Cite: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21574706/
This small study is discussed in an episode of Hidden Brain, along with a number of other studies that have involved mindset and its literal physiological (bodily) effects. Worth a bit of a think, maybe. Here's the episode:
https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/reframing-your-reality-part-2/
It's a little long (52 minutes), but IMO very interesting and applicable. There was also a part 1, more about mindset and stress response, i.e., more the psychology of mindset in part 1, vs. the impact on the body in part 2.
I'm 36 minutes into Part 1 of Reframing Your Reality and finding it VERY useful. I have a quite stressful meeting coming up next week and hearing that "nervous arousal before a negotiation" can help one perform better is exactly what I needed to hear right now
A similar concept mentioned: "appraisal of arousal manipulation."
I'm glad to hear that. I've been pushing these specific podcast episodes a bit here in the Community because they seem so very applicable and . . . a little mind-bending actually, even though I knew some about aspects of this (like placebo effect) before these episodes. I've thought about posting the links and a summary as a Debate thread, but I'm not really up for the "debate" from people who haven't listened to the episodes, but want to debate based on what they think the title of them means. 🙄 You've been here a while, you know what I mean.
OP: Apologies for the digression on your thread. I hope you'll forgive me. I'm sorry that you seem to feel that we are glossing over the deeper issues, or trivializing what you're feeling, or something along those lines.
To some extent, I think this is communication gap. For me, some of the things I talked about were (perhaps surprisingly) deep and profound. I'm sorry that they didn't speak to you. I think it's hard to put into words. Words can seem superficial, inherently. Sincerely, honestly, I've been trying to answer your questions as best and as thoughtfully and deeply as I can. Apparently, my communication skills fail me here, and I'm being more irritating than helpful to you . . . or perhaps I am, indeed, a superficial, cliched sort of person (and I'm not offended by that possibility - self-insight is hard, but useful).1 -
Hi Ann
I have appreciated all of your comments and suggestions and you are a sincere, kind and knowledgable person. I just find myself getting frustrated and disillusioned with the daunting process and I know I amplify my complaints when I am not careful. Please keep posting on this thread as you have a great deal to contribute. I am sorry if sounded ungrateful. Just feeling a bit down and frustrated.
Shel
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Just wanted to second @AnnPT77 comments that my intentions were also to go deeper to the real issues here, and in no way meant to trivialize how much work this is for ALL of us.
You say if you could just eat blueberries instead of potato chips you would, but what I am saying is no one here can just do that. That would be a rapid, drastic change that we all know is not sustainable.
To use your example, I am talking about the type of slow habit changes where if you eat, say, 3 bags of potato chips 5 times a week, start by trying to eat 2 bags of potato chips on 2 of those days, and still give yourself the 3 bags 3 days a week. Try that for a few weeks, and then see if maybe you can add one more day where you only eat 2. Etc. Etc.
Will it take a long time to lose weight this way? Yes. But think of how much more likely you will be to be able to maintain these habit changes if you make them slowly. And think of how much more likely you are to stick to this plan knowing you still get chips. And by slowly decreasing your calorie intake, you will ultimately lose weight. It just takes a while.
To build on that, I still eat chips! For me, the Tetris game aspect (and the pivoting to blueberries) is the realization that if I am trying to eat 2100 calories a day to maintain (or 1900 a day to lose), some days I want chips, but other days I realize I want volume, so for the same 140 calories I can have a giant bowl of mixed berries with Greek yogurt. Or knowing I can have an ice cream bar for dessert, or if i want lots of little things, i could have 4 fig newton and 8 marshmallows for the same calories, so I get to play around with what I eat. And there is no right choice - I get to have it all, just not all at the same time and not in gigantic portions. That’s where calories come in. But it took starting small and practice to get here. Not just drastically reducing my calories all of a sudden.
Losing weight and changing your life is not about eating “healthy” to the exclusion of all else. And no one here who has changed their lives did so because it was easy.
Hope this is helpful, and I, too, apologize if I did a poor job communicating how seriously I take all this in my previous post.1 -
I second @AnnPT77 said, and hope you find what you are looking for.0
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There's a way in which I think I can be unhelpful in contexts like this, that is really for me one of my . . . personal survival tactics, emotionally speaking? You have not seen a lot from me saying how hard this all is. I just cannot let myself go there. For me, it's not a healthy place, not a productive place, not a useful place. It gets me stuck. As much as possible, I need to limit my thinking about my problems to what I am going to do to solve them, to get over, around, through or otherwise past the roadblock. If there's nothing I can do at all to influence or control the situation, I need to work on acceptance.
I'm not saying anyone else should be or needs to be like this, but I need to be, and it 100% can make me seem unsympathetic, I fear. I do care. I would like to help.0 -
Oh dear.. I am concerned that I hurt your feelings Ann and I am really sorry. You write beautifully and it was me who overthought your comments and advice. Chickenkillerpuppy (what a name!) said it well when she was reminding me that nothing is simple or linear in the quest for the lifestyle choices that will work over time. I know this. I just have to let this resonate with me at a deeper level then just passing thoughts. Ann, I can only imagine how you have struggled to achieve your goals and I want to personally thank you for not getting irritated with me and letting me vent. Let's all work together to be the best versions of ourselves. I am part potato-chip and part blue berries with yogurt. I can accept both parts.
Have a lovely day.
Shel
1 -
Oh dear.. I am concerned that I hurt your feelings Ann and I am really sorry. You write beautifully and it was me who overthought your comments and advice. Chickenkillerpuppy (what a name!) said it well when she was reminding me that nothing is simple or linear in the quest for the lifestyle choices that will work over time. I know this. I just have to let this resonate with me at a deeper level then just passing thoughts. Ann, I can only imagine how you have struggled to achieve your goals and I want to personally thank you for not getting irritated with me and letting me vent. Let's all work together to be the best versions of ourselves. I am part potato-chip and part blue berries with yogurt. I can accept both parts.
Have a lovely day.
Shel
You didn't hurt my feelings, I promise. I'm responsible for my feelings, not you - and I'm pretty resilient, or try to be. I can't think why I would be irritated with you? You're not trolling or mocking or any of those manipulative things.
To the bolded: Of course there were obstacles. Think about what I said about me in my previous post. From that perspective, I didn't struggle to achieve my goals. I problem-solved to achieve my goals - that's how I need to think of it, as much as possible, in order to hang onto a sense of empowerment that is really important to me psychologically. Not how everyone would want to look at it, let alone need to look at it, but that's how I need to be. Saying that is about as deep as I get.0 -
I am going to apologize in advance if I offend, but I am going to offer some addiction advice, because if we are speaking in terms of eating five bags of potato chips in a sitting every day no one is doing that out of hunger. I realize that is just a hypothetical, but that we are talking about such hypotheticals points out that the issue is not helping figure out better caloric choices to fit into a calorie allotment. 5 bags of chips wont ever fit in a goal set to cut weight, and nothing approximating the feel and taste of 5 bags of chips will fit either. but that doesn’t matter because it isn’t about hunger. Anyone interested in eating that many chips needs to figure out why she is eating the chips and how it makes her feel when she does it. My bet is she will realize it doesn’t make her feel good enough even in the moment, and if she can take that knowledge and harness it she can move past the “its such a struggle” part. There is another thread on one of these boards that adopted the motto “YES, ITS HARD. BEING FAT IS HARDER.” Or something to that effect….that is basically the attitude that I adopted and as a result it turned out it really wasn’t particularly hard at all.
Addiction counselors would tell you to make a detailed record of everything that goes into making the decision to eat those 5 bags of chips- if it is a decision- when, where, how, why, do you eat them? What are you doing or feeling? What do you physically feel like as you think about having them, are you excited, nervous, upset, happy? What is it like going to get them? Do you hide them from your family in a secret stash? Why? Because you are embarrassed? Because you want more chips? What does it feel like when you open the bag? Is it exhilarating? A rush? Do you feel guilty? How do you eat the chips? One at a time? Handfuls? Quickly, or savoring them? How does the first bite taste? Do you even notice it, or are you already putting the next bite in your mouth? How quickly do you eat the chips? Do you find the grease and salt appealing when it is on your hands, or is it gross? Do you wipe it off, wash your hands, or just reach for the next bag/bite? What does that feel/taste like? Is it as satisfying? Or is it starting to feel gross? Is the salt burning your tongue and lips and skin? Are you feeling thirsty and dry mouthed? You get the idea …. Then do the same a little while later recording how you feel as a result of overeating — both physically and emotionally.
The idea is to make a precise examination of how and why you are engaging in the overeating and how it makes you feel and to make a (private) record of it for yourself in gory detail that you can refer to in order to remind yourself how it really feels when you binge. I have never been a binge eater, but I wasn’t initially thrilled about stopping drinking. I needed to do it for health reasons, and I really enjoyed having wine in particular. I realized however that I actually felt pretty awful when I drank more than 1 glass of wine, and just had a tendency to conveniently forget about it and instead romanticize how wonderful and sophisticated it was *and I was …. Well neither was true. Doing a version of this exercise and then reminding myself exactly how everything plays out in reality easily convinced me that I would be much happier not mixing my medicine with wine at all, and has kept me from picking up drinking again even now when I am off those particular drugs.
I apologize if this sounds harsh. That isn’t my intention. I also hope you won’t just say “I already know binging is bad for me” and dismiss the exercise. I also knew that drinking was bad for me and that I felt poorly after drinking, but I didn’t realize all the little things I overlooked — like that I often didn’t even want a glass of wine it was a force of habit in a particular situation/time, or that I often didn’t like the taste of even the second sip of a glass of wine, but continued to drink it because it was in front of me. I even actively did things to mask bad wine like stick an ice cube in it or eat something fatty with it. And it was easy not to notice I was even having the anxiety, racing heartbeat, and other unpleasant symptoms from alcohol until I wrote them down, just like it is easy to overlook that you actually find an overload of even your favorite snack unpleasant unless you focus on exactly how it feels and tastes to eat it in large quantities.
Anyway, maybe this helps, maybe it doesn’t. I know I am in the bunch that already offended folks in this thread with my overly optimistic advice to eat healthy carbs, so I will barrel on ahead. Apologies again.4 -
Actually, recording in an accurate manner our food and alcohol consumption is an excellent cognitive strategy and brings us face to face with truth. I know I lull myself into a false sense of comfort and fulfilment in those moments of indulgence and impulsivity. Thank you for reminding me of this tool which I will implement immediately. Perhaps one can learn discipline as well as how to make better choices. That could even apply to me Who knows. I appreciate the optimist bias because, on average, this orientation affords a better chance of generating positive energy rather than doom and gloom. The world has become ripe with enormous challenges that it is so tempting to throw our hands up in the air and concede the point. But.....there is the possibility that we can pull ourselves out of the death throttle and save our planet, and our future. I think if we can be more positive, we may change our trajectory.Perhaps that can be the mantra for our self management and self care. I think there is always hope and I believe that we can change our brains if we have become stuck in rigid and limited thoughts. We choose how we respond to the challenges of life. Maybe eating and drinking ought not to be a reaction but a separate and important lifestyle dimension to our survival. I will try and be more mindful of what I am thinking and choosing. Thanks for listening.
Shel
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I feel a sense of relief as I have loosened my self-imposes restrictions and have chosen to be a bit more open minded with food and quantity. My body is an older body and needs gradual and gentle care and support and I don’t want to punish it for being large. It got there honestly, doing it’s best to digest and cope with everything I put in it. It’s time to slow down and be mindful. Going to go for a walk and think about the bigger picture. This is me at 63. Just do my best. A few blue berries some days and a few chips the next. Moderation but not deprivation .3
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