Overhead press without hurting back?

AnnPT77

herringboxes wrote: »

I hesitated before bumping this thread back up again, but why not.

I’ve just kept working on the overhead press while not pushing it too hard, just letting my core catch up. I no longer feel like my back is weaker than my arms, they feel in sync. Which is great!

I’ve been thinking scoliosis my be a big factor for me overall. I’ve paid it no mind all my life but suddenly it feels like it may answer a lot of questions.

I’m sure everybody hates squats, but I feel like I might hate them at least 25% more than the average person. As a newbie, I try to learn good form, and one thing I read said to push through the heels to return to standing.

Wow, this simple and obvious instruction has proved quite difficult for me! I don’t even see how I can contort my body to be able to do that. My weight balances on the forward part of my foot, and my efforts to rebalance to heels have thus far been unsuccessful. I’m sure I could be much stronger pushing from the heels, sounds quite lovely. I wonder if scoliosis could be a factor affecting my form there.

Maybe ankle flexibility as part of that? Inflexible ankles are a kind of common limitation on squat depth. I'm interpreting weight-on-forward-foot as a compromise move to improve depth, which is speculative.

ETA: Timing overlap. Similar intent to nossmf's comment above.

herringboxes

I did the stretches today along with the squats. Too early to say if it improved my form or not, but will definitely keep doing them because if nothing else, I could really feel my calves loosen up over the period of time I did them.

claireychn074

herringboxes wrote: »

I hesitated before bumping this thread back up again, but why not.

I’ve just kept working on the overhead press while not pushing it too hard, just letting my core catch up. I no longer feel like my back is weaker than my arms, they feel in sync. Which is great!

I’ve been thinking scoliosis my be a big factor for me overall. I’ve paid it no mind all my life but suddenly it feels like it may answer a lot of questions.

I’m sure everybody hates squats, but I feel like I might hate them at least 25% more than the average person. As a newbie, I try to learn good form, and one thing I read said to push through the heels to return to standing.

Wow, this simple and obvious instruction has proved quite difficult for me! I don’t even see how I can contort my body to be able to do that. My weight balances on the forward part of my foot, and my efforts to rebalance to heels have thus far been unsuccessful. I’m sure I could be much stronger pushing from the heels, sounds quite lovely. I wonder if scoliosis could be a factor affecting my form there.

You might want to book a sess with an experienced PT to look at your squat form, as it could be something really easy to fix (but difficult to figure out yourself). It could well be mobility or tight muscles, but it could also be your stance (width of feet and angle), the bar position (high bar vs low bar), width of hands and upper mobility. You might also find wearing lifting shoes gives you a bit more mobility (ie the ones which have a raised heel). There are lots of little differences you can make in a squat which can make it more comfortable, and it took me quite a while to sort mine out. I still sometimes lean forward a bit too much as I’m not very good at back squats, and that throws the weight onto my forefoot.

Retroguy2000

@herringboxes

@claireychn074 mentioned squat stance above. Our hips typically get in the way of squatting deep, and you'll probably find one width works better for you than others. Coincidentally, the genetics in the areas of Eastern Europe have hip sockets which enable them to squat deeper, and they have been very successful in weightlifting. You can also put a couple of small plates on the floor to put your heels on them. You definitely do not want to risk butt wink as you try to go deeper.

herringboxes

Will butt wink kill or maim me?

Claire, I think you’re right, I need someone to watch me and tell me what I’m doing wrong. I have low vision (blind) so watching videos is of limited help and I can’t see myself in the mirror. If I can get a single session for a limited cost, I’d like that.

Wouldn’t raising my heels compound the issue? I think it would lead me to lean forward more. I try to keep weight on my heels but my balance just seems off.

I do take a somewhat wide, toes and knees somewhat out, stance. The narrower and toes/knees straight stance is outright uncomfortable, almost painful, to the degree I don’t think I’m constructed that way.

Retroguy2000

If you go low enough you may get butt wink, which is absolutely to be avoided. It's often an ankle mobility issue. Raising heels slightly on a weight plate say, helps to get squat depth without the butt wink. With your issue of going forwards on to your toes there is probably something else going on with your form, and from the way you describe it I wonder if you're maintaining a neutral spine.

There was a thread here, probably in the bodybuilding sub-forum, where posters would post videos for form checks. I don't know if those who did so are still active. I'm sure you could post yours on reddit for assistance. Or maybe film yourself, and have a friend talk you through what may be different from a good form video.

Jonni Shreve (IFBB pro) has excellent form tutorials. Check out some of his vids on squats. Sorry, I know you said you have vision issues, but maybe they can still be of some help.

https://www.youtube.com/@JonniShreve/search?query=squat

There are alternatives to back squats, if it's likely to continue being an issue for you.

herringboxes

Great ideas. I’m quite sure I’m not acheiving a neutral spine.

I have a Planet Fitness membership so I can use the treadmill (I can’t jog unaided on the street) and I see they offer some form of group fitness training, included in membership. Not sure if that includes a look at form but plan to check it out.

Also, I agree I should video the squat, I can’t see video very well but I might see something (I can see video better than real life). And if I must post my awful squat on Reddit, gulp, but I’d definitely rather do that than die of butt wink or something.

Retroguy2000

To clarify what butt wink is, it's the pelvis tucking under your body at the bottom of the squat, resulting in a rounded lower back.

As one of the first Google hits says:

"Despite its cheeky name, butt wink is actually quite serious. It can lead to disc injuries, stress fractures and sacroiliac joint problems."

claireychn074

Before you can see a PT (try to get one that has experience, even a powerlifting coach or S&C coach if you can find and afford one), try some body weight squats. If you have a broom or stick, pretend that’s the barbell (so it’s unweighted but so that you’re in the real position) and try different foot positions to see where you feel most stable. Remember that you need to brace your tummy, your upper back and even your shoulders to get that tight neutral line. As even having a loose core can make your weight shift.

Then try with a narrow stance, and move increasing out until you feel uncomfortable. See which position feels most stable and work from there. Even doing body weight squats slowly without weight will benefit you, and over time you will get that balance. It’s just so much easier with an expert watching you and telling you! I have a weightlifting coach and he still has to correct my form 🤷‍♂️

peazoo1325

The best way to find out what’s holding you back is to hold onto a vertical bar and try to lower yourself straight down without falling over. Keep your back straight. You may need to widen your stance and even flare you feet out. Go as low as you can and try to stand up from there. This exercise is optimal for squatting but also exposes the best you can do based upon your flexibility and limb length.

The next way to build up squat strength is to hold a dumbbell or kettlebell (it doesn’t have to heavy) in front of your chest. When you do this you will notice how the weight counterbalances your body to feel similar to that holding a vertical bar. That is what you want to feel for every type of squat exercise.

For each exercise you need to tighten your core or transverse abdominal muscle. This is easier said than done until you build strength.

Performing the motions even partially will build strength in your weakest areas first. So have patience. You will get there

herringboxes

Thanks Retro, would definitely like to avoid herniated disc et al.

Claire, I had experimented and arrived at my somewhat wider and knees out stance, after the standard narrow and straight ahead stance felt utterly wrong to me. When I adjusted, it went from “something is very wrong” to “oh, ok, I can do this.”

Peazoo, I tried the squat with a dumbbell held in front. That definitely made a difference on my balance. With the counterweight, I was free to shift back on my heels. Though what I can hold in front is a lot less than what I can set on my shoulders, I think I will stay here for a while. Yes, it’s no waste for me, I’ve neglected lower body, oh, my whole life. Even unweighted squats are no waste for me.

Also, thanks for the reminder to engage core, had forgotten to really work on that.

Retroguy2000

DB in front is a goblet squat, and it's excellent for the legs. That's if you have enough weight for 10-15 reps being close to failure. Make sure to not round your shoulders forwards.

What's the max weight for your db?

herringboxes

I could get 40 pounds on there, more than enough for me.

Squats have been going better, actually kind of suddenly. I’ve been mixing up goblets, back squats, and just plain bodyweight squats as- to the mat. I still hate them but it’s like they have started coming into focus, best way I can describe it.

So I think the bottom line is that as a beginner, doing these compound moves required different muscles to come together, and some were further behind than others. And it’s taken time to get things aligned.

My overhead press no longer feels in any danger of back pain, and I progressed to a PB over what I had done 12 years ago.

My next challenge is figuring out a bench. I’ve tried the floor but it’s feeling like a waste of time. I have a solid bench meant for outdoor seating that I want to drag out. It has folding legs but is solid, and I’m not exactly benching 250 and I myself am only 124. It won’t be nearly as easy to get the bar into position than if I were just unracking it from a proper weight bench, but should still be easier that doing it from bed or floor (well I hope so anyway).

At some point I’ll have to figure how how to increase my back squat because I’m limited by how much I can lift over my head to put the weight on my back. Yeah, I can do dumbbells, I just really like the barbell, sigh.

Retroguy2000

@herringboxes

Are you in the US? I assume this is a US only deal, Woot (Amazon) has a big discount on a couple of Flybird benches since Prime Day. I'd be a little wary of them at my size, nearly 100 pounds above you. I think they have good reviews for their value, and the current price of $60-$72 which may only be valid for another day or two is crazy cheap. Check the reviews on the main Amazon page.

They both do multiple angles. I think the more expensive one does decline too. Or if you want to spend more, REP Fitness makes good ones at various price ranges around $300-$500.

https://sport.woot.com/offers/flybird-adjustable-bench?ref=w_cnt_wp_0_1

You mentioned the difficulty of adding weight for back squat. I don't have a rack either. I do the barbell hack squat, also known as hack deadlift. You have the barbell on the floor behind you and pick it up, and from there I do reps without it touching the floor. It works the quads hard, and I can load it progressively higher without needing to invest in a rack or need the space for that.

nossmf

I bought a used weight bench off of Craigslist for $10, IIRC. Doesn't adjust angle, but did the job when I was using a home gym setup. (I currently prefer my actual gym, for the additional equipment and the hot tub.)

herringboxes

Thanks for the ideas, both. Sorry, didn’t explain, am hiding all this crap under my bed so just going with a make-do solution.

Interesting about the squat idea. Will keep it in mind.