Intermittent Fasting

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Aesop101
Aesop101 Posts: 758 Member
in Health and Weight Loss
Right off, I don't know much about it. I saw a video about Dr. Jason Fung that sparked my interest. I had previously seen a video about it from another doctor. I thought, "Yeah, right!" I may have seen another. I'm not sure.

Then there was a video by one doctor showing clips of speeches by Dr. Jason Fung. Now that caught my attention. I'm 70 years old and have been taught my whole life to eat three meals per day. However, Dr. Jason Fung and others say to skip meals and even go down to one meal per day. The idea is to let your body dispose of the food you just ate so it can pull stored fat (energy) from your cells. That's about as technical as I can get. Dr. Fung used the analogy of over filling your gas tank when you eat three meals a day. The gas will spill out.

He further said don't eat if you are not hungry and intermittent fasting is a way of ensuring that. Further, don't eat by the clock; It's morning, breakfast, noon, lunch, 5 o'clock, dinner. Last thought, all the doctors I watched said no eating after 6 PM.

Yesterday was my first day of intentional intermittent fasting. I had a light breakfast (300 calories), skipped lunch, and then a nice healthy dinner. It wasn't a bad day. I'm not sure I would do this every day. Dr. Fung told a patient to do it three times per week and had great results.

Last thing, Dr. Fung said he could make anyone fat, just give them insulin. That was a shocker.
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Replies

  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 33,960 Member
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    oops, sorry Lietchi, I also agree with you...I thought I saw three posts up there! :flowerforyou:
  • tomcustombuilder
    tomcustombuilder Posts: 1,624 Member
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    cmriverside wrote: »

    Fung and IF have been discussed ad nauseum here.

    I would suggest you go to Google and read what reputable sources say about Fung, Intermittent fasting, and weight loss...stay off YouTube, it's a rabbit hole of misdirection and misinformation that anyone can post at any time with zero proof or knowledge.

    If people post enough garbage, it starts becoming a career of lies. Hard to backpedal into the truth when you're selling books and YouTube hits to desperate and easily fooled people looking for loopholes and easy weight-loss hacks. i.e. $$$
    correct!

    all these people like Fung, etc, take advantage of people looking for fatloss hacks as nobody wants to do what is necessary to actually lose fat.

    Fatloss is simple but not easy for most.

  • jennywren93
    jennywren93 Posts: 17 Member
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    Dr. Fung is a great resource. If you think back to caveman days, they ate when food was around, and didn't when there wasn't any. There is nothing wrong with fasting, it helps bring down your blood sugar (using glycogen stores) and breaking down fat for energy. I don't do OMAD so that I reduce my calorie intake (CICO), but to gain lower blood sugar, more energy and better mental health. I track, but don't care about calories, I am focusing on reaching my fat/protein goals. I am carnivore for the most part. And when I'm not carnivore, I'm still single ingredient foods - like adding tomatoes and cheese to have a "carnivore pizza" etc. Feel free to reach out about any questions for fasting, I've been doing it a while now ;)
  • jennywren93
    jennywren93 Posts: 17 Member
    edited February 25
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    tomcustombuilder wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »

    Fung and IF have been discussed ad nauseum here.

    I would suggest you go to Google and read what reputable sources say about Fung, Intermittent fasting, and weight loss...stay off YouTube, it's a rabbit hole of misdirection and misinformation that anyone can post at any time with zero proof or knowledge.

    If people post enough garbage, it starts becoming a career of lies. Hard to backpedal into the truth when you're selling books and YouTube hits to desperate and easily fooled people looking for loopholes and easy weight-loss hacks. i.e. $$$
    correct!

    all these people like Fung, etc, take advantage of people looking for fatloss hacks as nobody wants to do what is necessary to actually lose fat.

    Fatloss is simple but not easy for most.

    Fasting is not a hack, and is not easy. People who want to lose the fat, fast for that exact reason.
  • jennywren93
    jennywren93 Posts: 17 Member
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    Aesop101 wrote: »
    Right off, I don't know much about it. I saw a video about Dr. Jason Fung that sparked my interest. I had previously seen a video about it from another doctor. I thought, "Yeah, right!" I may have seen another. I'm not sure.

    Then there was a video by one doctor showing clips of speeches by Dr. Jason Fung. Now that caught my attention. I'm 70 years old and have been taught my whole life to eat three meals per day. However, Dr. Jason Fung and others say to skip meals and even go down to one meal per day. The idea is to let your body dispose of the food you just ate so it can pull stored fat (energy) from your cells. That's about as technical as I can get. Dr. Fung used the analogy of over filling your gas tank when you eat three meals a day. The gas will spill out.

    He further said don't eat if you are not hungry and intermittent fasting is a way of ensuring that. Further, don't eat by the clock; It's morning, breakfast, noon, lunch, 5 o'clock, dinner. Last thought, all the doctors I watched said no eating after 6 PM.

    Yesterday was my first day of intentional intermittent fasting. I had a light breakfast (300 calories), skipped lunch, and then a nice healthy dinner. It wasn't a bad day. I'm not sure I would do this every day. Dr. Fung told a patient to do it three times per week and had great results.

    Last thing, Dr. Fung said he could make anyone fat, just give them insulin. That was a shocker.

    Yes, he's right. Many drs are now saying that. Fat and protein keep you satiated so you CAN fast longer (because your body is getting the nutrients you need instead of being full but nutritionally starving). Drop your carbs as low as you can, up your protein and fat. Make baby steps and you will see some awesome improvements! I'm so excited you are finding this at your age!
    Keep reading, keep watching videos- look up Dr. Ken Berry, Dr. Chaffe, Carnivore Doctor (eyes), Dr. Ben Bikman to start. See what they say about fasting. There's tons of other doctors, too. You've got this! You can do it!
  • mtaratoot
    mtaratoot Posts: 13,235 Member
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    cmriverside wrote: »
    jennywren93 wrote: »
    Dr. Fung is a great resource. If you think back to caveman days, they ate when food was around, and didn't when there wasn't any. There is nothing wrong with fasting, it helps bring down your blood sugar (using glycogen stores) and breaking down fat for energy. I don't do OMAD so that I reduce my calorie intake (CICO), but to gain lower blood sugar, more energy and better mental health. I track, but don't care about calories, I am focusing on reaching my fat/protein goals. I am carnivore for the most part. And when I'm not carnivore, I'm still single ingredient foods - like adding tomatoes and cheese to have a "carnivore pizza" etc. Feel free to reach out about any questions for fasting, I've been doing it a while now ;)

    You joined this site in 2010. How long have you been fasting/carnivore and how much weight have you lost? How are your other health markers? Do you plan to eat caveman/carnivore forever? If not, why not?

    Such a lot of misunderstanding in your post.

    Joined the site, perhaps, in 2010, but only started posting today and with lots of, let's just call it "controversial" suggestions. I'm wondering if it's a hacked account actually. Profile picture was uploaded today. Only three visits. Not much for a 14 year veteran. Awarded first, second, third... tenth, and "ancient" anniversary badges all this morning at 08:38.

  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 32,154 Member
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    jennywren93 wrote: »
    tomcustombuilder wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »

    Fung and IF have been discussed ad nauseum here.

    I would suggest you go to Google and read what reputable sources say about Fung, Intermittent fasting, and weight loss...stay off YouTube, it's a rabbit hole of misdirection and misinformation that anyone can post at any time with zero proof or knowledge.

    If people post enough garbage, it starts becoming a career of lies. Hard to backpedal into the truth when you're selling books and YouTube hits to desperate and easily fooled people looking for loopholes and easy weight-loss hacks. i.e. $$$
    correct!

    all these people like Fung, etc, take advantage of people looking for fatloss hacks as nobody wants to do what is necessary to actually lose fat.

    Fatloss is simple but not easy for most.

    Fasting is not a hack, and is not easy. People who want to lose the fat, fast for that exact reason.

    I wanted to lose the fat, but it turned out to be completely unnecessary for me to fast in order to lose fat. I lost from obese to a healthy weight and have stayed at a healthy weight for 7+ years since (after around 30 years of overweight/obesity), and I did that eating from shortly after I get up in the morning until shortly before bed at night (. . . while menopausal, age 59-60, and severely hypothyroid, in case anyone thinks those are factors that require fasting or low carb in order to lose weight).

    There's nothing wrong with fasting for weight loss if that helps a person manage calorie intake, and there's nothing wrong with fasting for people who find it pleasant or convenient, or who believe that fasting has substantial health benefits. I'm not dissing fasting (or any other eating style compatible with general good health). If OP wants to try it, that's reasonable.

    But fasting is not universally essential for weight loss, and it's inaccurate to imply that it is. Ditto for low carb: That helps some people, and carb management is necessary for certain health conditions, but it's not universally required for weight loss or health.

    I don't really care how many carbs I eat: As you say, they're not technically an essential nutrient. But looking retrospectively, my carb intake has been around the 50% MFP default (say +/- 5%) all through weight loss and maintenance. (I ate nearly zero added sugar during loss, in maintenance generally less than the 10% of calories recommended as a maximum by WHO and others. That's not from any kind of "limit added sugar" mindset, more just my personal eating preferences. My total sugar intake routinely exceeds the MFP default goal, but it's predominantly from fruit, veggies, and no-sugar-added dairy.)

    By the way, Fat isn't remotely sating to me. Protein and volume (lotsa veggies/fruits) are. Satiation tends to be individual. (Some people say they require carbs in order to feel full, even some mention bread or pasta or rice. I have no reason to doubt them.)

    My blood sugar levels, cholesterol, triglycerides, blood pressure are all fine now, too - though all but blood sugar were high before weight loss. (I recognize that not having been diabetic or IR may be part of the reason I don't seem to need to limit carbs.)

    Fung has had some success as a clinician, and quite a few people find the strategies he advocates to be beneficial for them in various ways. That's great, in my view. But his theoretical underpinnings seem to have some serious flaws, among them the implication that there's universally no way to control appetite or lose weight without fasting or eating low carb. That's simply not accurate. Before anyone takes Fung's theories at face value, I'd recommend that they look at what some of his well-credentialed critics say. (That's always a good strategy IMO, in any area at all, to look at critiques of appealing-sounding theories.)

    Many people here (and elsewhere) succeed at weight loss and health improvement without either fasting or low carb - that makes the case. That would be reasonably convincing even if there were not substantial amounts of research underpinning the notion that calories are the foundation for weight management. In a practical sense, obviously there's more to weight loss tactics than just calories, of course: Appetite, emotional issues, energy level, sleep, movement, social context, . . . I could go on and on.

    I'm sincerely delighted that you've found an eating/activity routine that you're finding helps you lose weight in a health-promoting way. It's fine to tell other people about personal success strategies. But it's not universally the only way.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 32,154 Member
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    When evaluating any "expert" source that sounds persuasive, it's IMO a good idea to explicitly seek out critics of that person, and see who the critics are (credentials, successes, etc.), and give the critiques serious consideration.

    That would be a really, really good idea when it comes to iconoclasts like Fung.

    When we start looking at some source on YouTube or in the blogosphere, and follow the links/ references from that to other sources/sites, we're tending to get into an echo chamber of people who agree with each other. On top of that, the algorithms within something like YouTube are designed to recommend sources that agree with things we've already viewed. That's a risk for creating cognitive bias.

    There are plenty of critiques of Fung, from mainstream, well-credentialed sources. I know that it can be tempting to believe that an iconoclast like Fung has found a new path that hidebound traditionalists are foolishly rejecting. (Iconoclasts usually encourage that thinking.) But it's possible, certainly. In the history of science, there have indeed been radicals whose new ideas turned a field of study in a major new and better direction. However, that's the minority case. Most iconoclasts turn out to have been dead wrong, following blind alleys.

    I'm not saying that fasting or low carb is wrong or unhealthful generically. I'm saying that those things are not universally necessary for weight loss, including not universally necessary for seniors. Those strategies have pros and cons, and each person can evaluate those against their personal needs. I'm also saying that many peers in his field believe that Fung's theories are incorrect, even though some of the practical approaches he advocates may work for some.

    P.S. I'm 68 years old. There's a particular caveat about fasting that applies to people in our demographic. There are certain nutrients that we tend to metabolize less efficiently as we age. Protein is one, and (statistically speaking) many seniors under-consume protein in the first place, contributing to dangerous sarcopenia. This is a report from an international expert group that discusses protein needs among people our age, and one aspect is a recommendation that protein intake be spread through the day:

    https://www.jamda.com/article/S1525-8610(13)00326-5/fulltext
  • jennywren93
    jennywren93 Posts: 17 Member
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    cmriverside wrote: »
    jennywren93 wrote: »
    Dr. Fung is a great resource. If you think back to caveman days, they ate when food was around, and didn't when there wasn't any. There is nothing wrong with fasting, it helps bring down your blood sugar (using glycogen stores) and breaking down fat for energy. I don't do OMAD so that I reduce my calorie intake (CICO), but to gain lower blood sugar, more energy and better mental health. I track, but don't care about calories, I am focusing on reaching my fat/protein goals. I am carnivore for the most part. And when I'm not carnivore, I'm still single ingredient foods - like adding tomatoes and cheese to have a "carnivore pizza" etc. Feel free to reach out about any questions for fasting, I've been doing it a while now ;)

    You joined this site in 2010. How long have you been fasting/carnivore and how much weight have you lost? How are your other health markers? Do you plan to eat caveman/carnivore forever? If not, why not?

    Such a lot of misunderstanding in your post.

    Hey! thanks for asking! Not a hacked account! I just preferred other tracking programs, but as I've acquired new health tech (Ultrahuman ring), and it integrates with MFP, I decided to look into it again, so that's why the sudden burst of activity on my account! I have been fasting/carnivore/keto since 2016. I was down about 100 pounds and had some major stress and menopause in 2019 which caused me to stray from eating clean, and due to severe food allergies! With my hormones all over the place and added stress (extreme, prolonged), I've gained back some weight. While not eating great, I also got covid which trashed my thyroid and added insult to injury(and one of the reasons I am struggling to lose weight right now!). I do plan to eat carnivore/ketovore forever for a bunch of reasons:
    1. My fibro is gone when I eat clean, single ingredient foods that my severe allergies can tolerate.
    2. My mental health is greatly improved by giving my brain enough fat. I did a "low fat" high protein diet and within 2 months my mental health was even worse. It took about 6 months to reverse it.
    3. Fasting helps me feel better (MUCH more energy) as well as time to "rest and digest", lowering my overall blood sugar and blood pressure
    4. My health markers are outstanding! My CAC score is 0. My LDL is 106, HDL 109, Tri's 69, A1c 5.3. Due to all the stress I was under in 2019 I was having a low heart rate and my dr wanted me to go to a cardiologist. At that time I was walking a 1/2 marathon a month, at least 1-2 5k's a day (I'm back up to a 5k a day now) and the cardiologist was AMAZED, called me an "elite athlete" like him and told me there was nothing wrong with my heart.
    5. My thyroid is healing without intervention from Doctors/prescriptions. My eyebrows and hair are growing back too! Dr.s diagnosed me last year with Hashimotos via ultrasound, but still wouldn't put me on meds (LOL), so I tightened down my diet and I can tell it's getting better! I look forward to my ultrasound test results next week!

    You don't have to agree with me, that's ok. I know how my body has healed since 2016, and how free my life is because I'm eating a proper human diet. I want to share and encourage people who are interested in eating this way because of the profound impact it has had on MY life.
    Other things it's healed:
    No pain for the most part
    No longer pre-diabetic
    My severe food allergies are well controlled because of how simple I keep my food. I rarely have an allergic reaction any more
    I am no longer on any prescription medications at 53 years old. Zero
    I am no longer depressed
    I reversed fatty liver
    My husband reversed diabetes and he is on no prescription medications at 61 years old
    My asthma is in remission ("well controlled" is considered 1 or 2 events/month, I have 1 event every couple years)

    Hope these details were what you were looking for! :smiley:
  • jennywren93
    jennywren93 Posts: 17 Member
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    mtaratoot wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    jennywren93 wrote: »
    Dr. Fung is a great resource. If you think back to caveman days, they ate when food was around, and didn't when there wasn't any. There is nothing wrong with fasting, it helps bring down your blood sugar (using glycogen stores) and breaking down fat for energy. I don't do OMAD so that I reduce my calorie intake (CICO), but to gain lower blood sugar, more energy and better mental health. I track, but don't care about calories, I am focusing on reaching my fat/protein goals. I am carnivore for the most part. And when I'm not carnivore, I'm still single ingredient foods - like adding tomatoes and cheese to have a "carnivore pizza" etc. Feel free to reach out about any questions for fasting, I've been doing it a while now ;)

    You joined this site in 2010. How long have you been fasting/carnivore and how much weight have you lost? How are your other health markers? Do you plan to eat caveman/carnivore forever? If not, why not?

    Such a lot of misunderstanding in your post.

    Joined the site, perhaps, in 2010, but only started posting today and with lots of, let's just call it "controversial" suggestions. I'm wondering if it's a hacked account actually. Profile picture was uploaded today. Only three visits. Not much for a 14 year veteran. Awarded first, second, third... tenth, and "ancient" anniversary badges all this morning at 08:38.

    LOL ok Jan. You don't have to agree with me, but let's have a conversation, k? Instead of conspiracy theories about intentions
  • jennywren93
    jennywren93 Posts: 17 Member
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    paperpudding wrote: »
    You don't have to agree with me, that's ok. I know how my body has healed since 2016, and how free my life is because I'm eating a proper human diet. I want to share and encourage people who are interested in eating this way because of the profound impact it has had on MY life.

    Jennywren, nobody is disagreeing that fasting or carnivore eating worked for YOU.

    the pushback is against your "this is universal" type claims, things like this: Fat and protein keep you satiated so you CAN fast longer (because your body is getting the nutrients you need instead of being full but nutritionally starving).

    Had you worded it Fats keep ME satiated...... no problem.

    But that isnt universally the case.

    Myself, I dont like big meals and have found eating in intervals throughout the day - ie breakfast, snack, lunch, dinner , snack - or something like that - suits me much better
    I am not a vegetarian but I eat less meat than many people.

    I have no issues with people eating any sensible variation of styles/foods - I do have an issue when they make claims that this is better for everyone.
    Which is how your post came across.

    I've done a lot of research, and I absolutely look to the science for what I say. Here's a great Pubmed article with some interesting information for you(It really is a fascinating read if you are interested!) :
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7539343/

    some highlights:
    Prevalence of obesity around the world have increased rapidly in recent years. This phenomenon poses serious health risks because obesity can progressively cause a wide range of diseases such metabolic syndrome, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, type 2 diabetes, and cardiovascular diseases.1 To resolve obesity, a negative energy balance, in which energy expenditure is greater than energy intake, must be encouraged. This can be achieved via an energy-restricted diet.2 However, an energy-restricted diet carries the risk of post-loss weight regain because it increases hunger and decreases fullness. Furthermore, weight loss through an energy-restricted diet reduces fat mass and fat-free mass (FFM), which hinders a continuous negative energy balance. To overcome this, lowering energy intake while maintaining fullness and FFM is crucial, and a high-protein, energy-restricted diet is one important strategy.3,4 In this review article, we examine the clinical evidence for the weight-loss effects and side effects of high-protein diet (HPD) and introduce various mechanisms through which HPD increases satiety and induces weight loss while preserving FFM.

    After 6 months, participants in the high-protein group significantly lost BW (–3.7 kg; 95% CI, –6.2 to –1.3 kg) and fat mass (–3.3 kg; 95% CI, –5.5 to –1.1 kg) compared with those in the high-carbohydrate diet group.

    In conclusion, many clinical trials have shown that consuming more protein than the recommended dietary allowance induces weight loss and improves body composition regardless of total energy intake. HPD was also observed to have long-term weight-loss effects and to prevent weight regain following initial weight loss.

    The benefits of HPD are well known, but there have been concerns that it may be harmful to the bones and kidneys. It has long been hypothesized that HPD increases the resorption of bones, which act as buffers, by increasing the acid load in the body,13 and some researchers argued that HPD increases risk for bone fracture and osteoporosis by accelerating bone resorption and urinary calcium excretion.14 However, a meta-analysis of 74 RCTs observed that subjects in the HPD group (16%–45% of total daily energy intake as protein) were not significantly different from low-protein-diet subjects (5%–23% of total daily energy intake as protein) with regard to bone mineral density of the lumbar spine and hips.6 Furthermore, low protein intake is generally considered a nutritional deficiency.

    Dietary protein not only decreases BW by increasing satiety and energy expenditure, but also improves body composition by increasing FFM. Increased satiety from protein intake is associated with elevation of blood amino acid (AA) concentration, hunger-inhibiting hormones, diet-induced thermogenesis (DIT), and ketone body levels.

    The mechanism underlying HPD-induced weight loss involves an increase in satiety and energy expenditure. Increased satiety is believed to be a result of elevated levels of anorexigenic hormones, decreased levels of orexigenic hormones, increased DIT, elevated plasma AA levels, increased hepatic gluconeogenesis, and increased ketogenesis from the higher protein intake.

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