How to reach from 20% to 12% BF while I don’t have a lot of muscle mass
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How to reach from 20% to 12%bf while I don’t have a lot of muscle mass
Hello everyone,
I'm currently 172cm tall and weigh 68kg. According to my weight scale, my body fat percentage is around 12%, but I'm skeptical about its accuracy since I still can't see my abs.
Here is a couple of photos, I am kind of flex in them though
My goal is to reach a weight of around 72-75kg with a body fat percentage of 15%. However, I'm unsure about whether I should continue my cutting phase until my abs are clearly visible before transitioning to a bulk, or if I should stop cutting now because I feel skinny.
Here's some background information about me:
- I've been training on and off for the past 10 years, but I haven't seen significant results.
- Despite attempting to bulk and cut over the past few years, I've never been satisfied. When I'm close to being lean, I feel too skinny, but when I gain muscle, I feel too fat.
- My bone density is small, and my legs are genetically small, which may contribute to my lower weight and seemingly higher body fat percentage.
I'm seeking advice on when to end the cutting phase. I'm concerned that reaching 12-15% body fat might make me look like a skeleton, especially since I currently weigh 68kg.
Any insights or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Hello everyone,
I'm currently 172cm tall and weigh 68kg. According to my weight scale, my body fat percentage is around 12%, but I'm skeptical about its accuracy since I still can't see my abs.
Here is a couple of photos, I am kind of flex in them though
My goal is to reach a weight of around 72-75kg with a body fat percentage of 15%. However, I'm unsure about whether I should continue my cutting phase until my abs are clearly visible before transitioning to a bulk, or if I should stop cutting now because I feel skinny.
Here's some background information about me:
- I've been training on and off for the past 10 years, but I haven't seen significant results.
- Despite attempting to bulk and cut over the past few years, I've never been satisfied. When I'm close to being lean, I feel too skinny, but when I gain muscle, I feel too fat.
- My bone density is small, and my legs are genetically small, which may contribute to my lower weight and seemingly higher body fat percentage.
I'm seeking advice on when to end the cutting phase. I'm concerned that reaching 12-15% body fat might make me look like a skeleton, especially since I currently weigh 68kg.
Any insights or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
1
Best Answers
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Retroguy2000 wrote: »
Yeah, browse the whole site. Plenty of good info there, e.g. this page:That looks good, I promise I will read all that and give it a try, I just feel 3 days a week is not a lot for me since I used to workout at least 5 days a week, but if you think it is enough for me to get some decent gains, then I will spend the other 2-3 days doing light cardio, stretches and maybe core exercises.
https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/workout-program/
This program isn't for life. It's for 3-6 months, to build a good foundation. The 5 reps regimen builds strength, which means you can do more volume (sets * weight * reps) when you switch to a more hypertrophy focused program later, such as Nippard's PPLPPL if you wanted to.
Please don't hate me but I kind of feel that this program is more suitable for me, and I would love your feedback on that: https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/upper-lower-4-day-gym-bodybuilding-workout
I am planning the following:
I'm considering replacing the Dips and maybe pull ups, even though I can do pull ups but want to avoid injury, any advice?
I'll be using a fantastic app called Hevy to record my sets and reps. This app will greatly assist me with progressive overload, allowing me to track my volume effectively. I'll begin with 5-8 reps per set, aiming for 0-3 Reps in Reserve (RIR), and I'll progressively increase volume each week or as much as possible.
I'm considering to do Upper-Lower-rest-Upper-Lower-rest-rest split, as it aligns well with my lifestyle.
For cardio, I'll schedule two sessions per week. One session will involve moderate intensity cardio for 30-45 minutes, while the other will consist of 4 sets of 4-minute intervals, alternating between high intensity and rest.
Currently, I'm consuming 1700 calories per day. I plan to increase my intake to maintenance level, which is around 2100 calories, and maintain this for a couple of weeks. Afterward, I'll gradually add another 100-200 calories while monitoring my waistline. I am just not sure how much gain in my waist is acceptable before considering a mini cut.
Your patience and support mean a lot to me, and I sincerely appreciate any thoughts or feedback on the above plan. Thank you in advance!
Forgive my poor language I just want to confirm I am on the same page with you:
- you like the program and you think it is suitable for me but I should stick to the number of reps and sets that is suggested there and increase the volume by adding weight or maybe extra reps on weekly basis if possible, correct?
- I am not sure what do you mean I am cautious with increasing the calories, I thought this is the way to go, do you suggest I should just jump from 1700cal to surpluses which is going to be around 2200 - 2300cals and take it from there?
- I got it about the rest time, I will adjust that according to my cardio condition and how I feel mentally
- I should aim for 0-2 RIR
I get it about the alternative exercise you suggest and watching RP channel for the proper form for barbell row
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You just seem nervous about going up in calories, that's all I mean.Forgive my poor language I just want to confirm I am on the same page with you:
- you like the program and you think it is suitable for me but I should stick to the number of reps and sets that is suggested there and increase the volume by adding weight or maybe extra reps on weekly basis if possible, correct?
- I am not sure what do you mean I am cautious with increasing the calories, I thought this is the way to go, do you suggest I should just jump from 1700cal to surpluses which is going to be around 2200 - 2300cals and take it from there?
- I got it about the rest time, I will adjust that according to my cardio condition and how I feel mentally
- I should aim for 0-2 RIR
Yep, we're on the same page on everything else there. I think if you wanted to go closer to 5 reps on some of the compounds, that's up to you. I'm just saying don't aim for a 5-8 rep range for everything. Stick to what the program listed for the most part.
This is a good vid about progression. I track my workouts in Google Sheets, so I can see the weight and reps for each set week to week, and I'm always looking to go higher on something each time, even if it's just one more rep. And if I feel really good on set 3 of 4 say, I can add weight in set 4 without waiting until next week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEEyH6JtCqQ 1
Answers
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What's your diet look like? How much protein , from which sources, total calories, how many meals etc. What goals have you or do you set for progressive overload and what milestones have you achieved over the last 2 years? Some people never achieve a 6 pack while still appearing rather athletic. It appears you've been more concerned with getting to a lower body fat than muscle building, but I may be wrong.
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You have to look in the mirror and decide what you're happy with. Your abs already look visible to me. I would hazard a guess you're maybe about 15%, or slightly above. Which is really, no a bad place to be.1
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neanderthin wrote: »What's your diet look like? How much protein , from which sources, total calories, how many meals etc. What goals have you or do you set for progressive overload and what milestones have you achieved over the last 2 years? Some people never achieve a 6 pack while still appearing rather athletic. It appears you've been more concerned with getting to a lower body fat than muscle building, but I may be wrong.
Thanks a lot for your response, I have a balanced diet of protein 158g, carbs135g and fat 70g
I eat around 4-5 meals, I don't have like a clear besides my weight and BF, but over all I feel I am getting stronger in some areas.
You're right, I am more concern about getting to a lower body fat (around 15%) I wish my abs to be visible but doesn't have to be freaking shredded much
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I can't edit my post so here is some extra information:
My daily calories is 1800-- protein 158g, carbs135g and fat 70g
I workout weight training 4 days a week and 2-3 times cardio0 -
Your training program is probably sub par as that much time in the weight room and you should be a lot farther along. Get your testosterone checked as it may be low.
As far as seeing abs, if they aren’t properly developed or your natural ab structure is very small then they won’t show even at 12%. They may not even show at a lower %.
You need to add muscle. If you dial in your calories to where you have a small, 200 or so surplus you won’t gain much fat. Too many people trying to add muscle think you need a big calorie surplus and you don’t.
Anyone asking similar questions should do as you did by posting a pic because as the saying goes, “a picture is worth a thousand words”
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Tom and the others are correct.
Home scales are poor at estimating bf %. And while I'm no expert, you don't look anywhere near 20% to me. Probably more like 15% which is ideal to be maingaining. As Tom said, a small surplus is what you want. If you've been losing weight at 1800, work out what your maintenance is, and a small surplus to that. As Tom said, 200. So e.g. if you've been losing 0.5 pounds per week at 1800, that's a maintenance of 2050, so go up to about 2250. With the training you're doing, you shouldn't gain much fat, and if you feel you are, just back off back to maintenance for a few weeks.
Your protein amount is good, unless it's from lower quality sources. Are you vegan? If so, you may need more.
I agree with Tom, I'd question your programming. Are you lifting to near failure? Tracking your progress and increasing reps and sets? Focusing on compounds?1 -
Timing of meals may be an issue too. While for most of us dealing with substantial weight loss total Calories are "all" that matters, when you're dealing with top performance some attention to pre and post exercise and night/rest feeding may be of value.
Also it seems that OP exercises at a more moderate level and daily. Which is awesome for health!
I'll be honest. Would be happy to be in OPs current position without wanting more... and prevention of injury would definitely come ahead of gainz for me. Not to mention that with age come other problems and some avenues may even be closed to us because of health concerns.
That said. Seems to me a lot of work has gone into this and I am not sure that the programming, i.e. workload is doing what the OP wants to do.
Nutrition only does so much. You got to have NEED for the super expensive showy muscles to be made and maintained.1 -
tomcustombuilder wrote: »Your training program is probably sub par as that much time in the weight room and you should be a lot farther along. Get your testosterone checked as it may be low.
As far as seeing abs, if they aren’t properly developed or your natural ab structure is very small then they won’t show even at 12%. They may not even show at a lower %.
You need to add muscle. If you dial in your calories to where you have a small, 200 or so surplus you won’t gain much fat. Too many people trying to add muscle think you need a big calorie surplus and you don’t.
Anyone asking similar questions should do as you did by posting a pic because as the saying goes, “a picture is worth a thousand words”
Thanks for your response. For my training program I am following Bro Spli full body training I am trying to work my way to have progressive overload, sometimes with weight and sometimes increase the rep.
Do you suggest that I should go ahead now with bulking because I don't have much muscle on me? I was thinking to push on cutting just a little bit further so when I do bulk I don't feel fat again in case I gain some fat along the way.
For the abs, I actually can see them under the right light and if I am super flex.
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Retroguy2000 wrote: »Tom and the others are correct.
Home scales are poor at estimating bf %. And while I'm no expert, you don't look anywhere near 20% to me. Probably more like 15% which is ideal to be maingaining. As Tom said, a small surplus is what you want. If you've been losing weight at 1800, work out what your maintenance is, and a small surplus to that. As Tom said, 200. So e.g. if you've been losing 0.5 pounds per week at 1800, that's a maintenance of 2050, so go up to about 2250. With the training you're doing, you shouldn't gain much fat, and if you feel you are, just back off back to maintenance for a few weeks.
Your protein amount is good, unless it's from lower quality sources. Are you vegan? If so, you may need more.
I agree with Tom, I'd question your programming. Are you lifting to near failure? Tracking your progress and increasing reps and sets? Focusing on compounds?
Thanks a lot for your kind response, I get my protein mainly from chicken, red meat and eggs and whey protein.
I train regularly and I push to faliour, I am sorry are you questioning my training program because you don't see much muscle on me or what's the reason you are questioning this?
And can you please advise me if it is ok to maybe push a little further on cutting phase so when I do bulking and in case I gain some fat along the way I don't feel fat and don't lose sight of abs again? sorry if the question sounds stupid heheh0 -
Timing of meals may be an issue too. While for most of us dealing with substantial weight loss total Calories are "all" that matters, when you're dealing with top performance some attention to pre and post exercise and night/rest feeding may be of value.
Also it seems that OP exercises at a more moderate level and daily. Which is awesome for health!
I'll be honest. Would be happy to be in OPs current position without wanting more... and prevention of injury would definitely come ahead of gainz for me. Not to mention that with age come other problems and some avenues may even be closed to us because of health concerns.
That said. Seems to me a lot of work has gone into this and I am not sure that the programming, i.e. workload is doing what the OP wants to do.
Nutrition only does so much. You got to have NEED for the super expensive showy muscles to be made and maintained.
Can you please elaborate on OP, I tried to looked it up but got some confused information
And what do you mean by this “I'll be honest. Would be happy to be in OPs current position without wanting more..”0 -
Timing of meals may be an issue too. While for most of us dealing with substantial weight loss total Calories are "all" that matters, when you're dealing with top performance some attention to pre and post exercise and night/rest feeding may be of value.
Also it seems that OP exercises at a more moderate level and daily. Which is awesome for health!
I'll be honest. Would be happy to be in OPs current position without wanting more... and prevention of injury would definitely come ahead of gainz for me. Not to mention that with age come other problems and some avenues may even be closed to us because of health concerns.
That said. Seems to me a lot of work has gone into this and I am not sure that the programming, i.e. workload is doing what the OP wants to do.
Nutrition only does so much. You got to have NEED for the super expensive showy muscles to be made and maintained.
Can you please elaborate on OP, I tried to looked it up but got some confused information
And what do you mean by this “I'll be honest. Would be happy to be in OPs current position without wanting more..”
OP in this case mean's Original Poster (you.) It can also mean Original Post.
I think what Pav means is that he'd be happy if his body looked like yours. Pav, I think you've got a year or two on the OP, yes?1 -
About 20++🤣 plus a couple of kilos of famine resistance reserves! 🤯 Same height thought!
As to the op: I don't think anyone is questioning your personal effort. And you've indicated you've put in a lot of work. So yes, programming letting you down would be a valid question/concern
Obviously genetics also play in this. And we are all conditioned to seeing fake/ enhanced/ edited/ constructed pictures and pharmacologically assisted influencers who have prepped, carb loaded, dehydrated and oiled up for the shot.1 -
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Retroguy2000 wrote: »Tom and the others are correct.
Home scales are poor at estimating bf %. And while I'm no expert, you don't look anywhere near 20% to me. Probably more like 15% which is ideal to be maingaining. As Tom said, a small surplus is what you want. If you've been losing weight at 1800, work out what your maintenance is, and a small surplus to that. As Tom said, 200. So e.g. if you've been losing 0.5 pounds per week at 1800, that's a maintenance of 2050, so go up to about 2250. With the training you're doing, you shouldn't gain much fat, and if you feel you are, just back off back to maintenance for a few weeks.
Your protein amount is good, unless it's from lower quality sources. Are you vegan? If so, you may need more.
I agree with Tom, I'd question your programming. Are you lifting to near failure? Tracking your progress and increasing reps and sets? Focusing on compounds?
Thanks a lot for your kind response, I get my protein mainly from chicken, red meat and eggs and whey protein.
I train regularly and I push to faliour, I am sorry are you questioning my training program because you don't see much muscle on me or what's the reason you are questioning this?
And can you please advise me if it is ok to maybe push a little further on cutting phase so when I do bulking and in case I gain some fat along the way I don't feel fat and don't lose sight of abs again? sorry if the question sounds stupid heheh
When adding muscle you will also add SOME fat, that is a given, how much depends on how close you can come to JUST over maintenance calories.
You’ll lose sight of your abs unless they were really well developed and you are not in that category.
Concentrate on muscle gain with minimum fat gain and forget about abs for awhile or you’ll spin your wheels yo yo-ing back and forth.
You grow abs in a slight calorie surplus just like any other muscle so take this building period to hit abs with weighted exercises along with the typical things like windshield washers, etc. when you come back to cutting you’ll have abs that will show a lot easier.2 -
OP, you seem determined to keep losing weight despite asking for advice here and the consensus being that you look good and you should go into a small calorie surplus (above maintenance) and focus on the lifting for now. Your bf % is far lower than you think, like I said earlier I'd guess much closer to 15% than 20%. You're in a great spot for maingaining.
Will you see more abs if you successfully lose some more pounds? Perhaps. How well depends on genetics, and of course training the abs like any other muscle group, and your bf % being low enough to really see it (low teens and below probably). I think your overall body composition will look better with a lean bulk from where you're at now, and a few more pounds of muscle.
Do you mind going into detail on your lifting program? How many days, what exercises, sets and reps?0 -
Btw, studies have shown bro split is sub-optimal. Greater frequency is more effective, so 2-3 times per week per muscle group.0
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Timing of meals may be an issue too. While for most of us dealing with substantial weight loss total Calories are "all" that matters, when you're dealing with top performance some attention to pre and post exercise and night/rest feeding may be of value.
To be honest, nutrient timing around exercise, for 99%+ of the population is majoring in the minors and a waste of effort. Is there evidence there is some benefit, sure but considering most people don't have their nutrition and training dialed in perfectly timing is just a distraction. This person isn't training for top performance (no dig to the OP as again only a small percent of the population is).
They can measure the distance to the Moon to a few millimeters, but the vast majority of us are good saying it's about a quarter million miles away.2 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »Timing of meals may be an issue too. While for most of us dealing with substantial weight loss total Calories are "all" that matters, when you're dealing with top performance some attention to pre and post exercise and night/rest feeding may be of value.
To be honest, nutrient timing around exercise, for 99%+ of the population is majoring in the minors and a waste of effort. Is there evidence there is some benefit, sure but considering most people don't have their nutrition and training dialed in perfectly timing is just a distraction. This person isn't training for top performance (no dig to the OP as again only a small percent of the population is).
They can measure the distance to the Moon to a few millimeters, but the vast majority of us are good saying it's about a quarter million miles away.
This post is about body composition, weight training and diet, so nutrient timing is relevant, but I agree for the vast majority, just trying to figure out their calorie deficit is enough of a task without worrying about that. If someone is trying to achieve a certain goal then understanding and implementing those principles that are advantageous for that goal is certainly better than just winging it, and contrary to popular believe it doesn't have to be perfect.1 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »To be honest, nutrient timing around exercise, for 99%+ of the population is majoring in the minors and a waste of effort. Is there evidence there is some benefit, sure but considering most people don't have their nutrition and training dialed in perfectly timing is just a distraction.
You won't find me disagreeing the vast majority of the time. You can look at my posts to get a sense of that.
The OP seems to have "no trouble" losing weight though I am not convinced that his bulks are as lean as they could be--but really no data.
But they do seem to have a good enough grasp of total calories for the purpose of losing weight.
They are complaining that in spite of "10 years of training" they have not seen significant muscle/physique improvements.
For all I know they are training in early evening after fasting all day and returning home for their one meal a day. Just saying that there may be better food intake avenues to explore as a support to their training.
"the on and off" part of their training and their overall programming and implementation is where *I* believe they will find the meat and potatoes of the results they seek.
But that's just my sense.0 -
Nutrient timing on a lean bulk means protein every 3 or so hours and going into the gym with a good supply of glycogen. That is 99% of it.0
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