How to reach from 20% to 12% BF while I don’t have a lot of muscle mass

xMidox

Retroguy2000 wrote: »

On why recomp (maintenance or small deficit) is a bad idea here. We already know that recomp is a slow process, and very slow for someone who is lean (like OP) and not a new lifter (which OP isn't). It looks like @Theoldguy1 has come around on this topic since yesterday, but I hope they won't mind me using their original argument here anyway. This is to show with numbers why it's not advisable.

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

To be honest, a recomp, lowing bodyfat and staying at the same weight but with more muscle would probably give him the appearance of 4-6kg heavier he was looking for.

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

My thoughts are in my post you quoted. I think you need a slight calorie increase from your maintenance, consistent lifting, compound movements

OP is 150 pounds. If we assume 16% bf, that's 24 pounds of fat. If they were to gain 13 pounds of muscle while losing 13 pounds of fat, they'd have 11 pounds of fat left, and be at 7% body fat. That's pro bodybuilder on stage, and obviously not natural, level. It's a completely unrealistic goal to reach for a natural, let alone maintain. It also caps the max amount of possible muscle he could gain to a small amount, because he doesn't have much fat. And it would be a very slow process.

OTOH, if OP does a small calorie surplus above maintenance like most of us advise, and it looks like you now agree Theoldguy, let's say he gains 10 pounds of weight and 8 pounds of that is muscle. His bodyfat % will be... drum roll... 16%, the same as it looks now. This is what Coach Greg Doucette talks about all the time as maingaining, which he advises from 15% bf, i.e. a slow weight gain while maintaining the same bf %. It's the ideal scenario for muscle gain, and if OP were to gain 8 pounds of muscle with the same bf %, his body composition will be much improved. And if it feels like too much fat is being gained, just go back to maintenance for a bit while continuing the lifting. The key is a small surplus, like one extra granola bar or protein bar, not chocolate milk shakes and scoops of peanut butter every day style.

Man, that makes a lot of sense to me now ....I just get it now why all of you keep suggesting to do a small surplus, the example you mentioned of me gaining 10 pounds of weight and even the minority of them are fat I will look much better and my BF% will look almost the same. Thank you!!

xMidox

Retroguy2000 wrote: »

Doing a quick look around on your behalf, since that Nippard PPLPPL looks quite bodybuilder hardcore for a 40 year old relative newbie, this looks like it might be good for you. It's a strength focused split with an upper body bias, and it's simple to track and progress. At 3x per week and compound focused it's much easier to adhere to than 6 days, which also frees you up to do whatever cardio you want on the other days (not HIIT).

https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/plus/

About progressing:

https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/progress/

I'd suggest a couple of minor changes. Start the week with Workout B then C then A. So e.g. if you did M/W/F that would mean deadlifts on Monday and squats on Friday. I'd also suggest you swap the dips for bench press, and I don't know what a pallof press is.

What do you think? Maybe try this for three or four months then reassess?

I can't emphasize enough how much I appreciate you were looking into that for me, thanks!

That looks good, I promise I will read all that and give it a try, I just feel 3 days a week is not a lot for me since I used to workout at least 5 days a week, but if you think it is enough for me to get some decent gains, then I will spend the other 2-3 days doing light cardio, stretches and maybe core exercises.

Retroguy2000

xMidox wrote: »

That looks good, I promise I will read all that and give it a try, I just feel 3 days a week is not a lot for me since I used to workout at least 5 days a week, but if you think it is enough for me to get some decent gains, then I will spend the other 2-3 days doing light cardio, stretches and maybe core exercises.

Yeah, browse the whole site. Plenty of good info there, e.g. this page:

https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/workout-program/

This program isn't for life. It's for 3-6 months, to build a good foundation. The 5 reps regimen builds strength, which means you can do more volume (sets * weight * reps) when you switch to a more hypertrophy focused program later, such as Nippard's PPLPPL if you wanted to.

Theoldguy1

xMidox wrote: »

Retroguy2000 wrote: »

Doing a quick look around on your behalf, since that Nippard PPLPPL looks quite bodybuilder hardcore for a 40 year old relative newbie, this looks like it might be good for you. It's a strength focused split with an upper body bias, and it's simple to track and progress. At 3x per week and compound focused it's much easier to adhere to than 6 days, which also frees you up to do whatever cardio you want on the other days (not HIIT).

https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/plus/

About progressing:

https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/progress/

I'd suggest a couple of minor changes. Start the week with Workout B then C then A. So e.g. if you did M/W/F that would mean deadlifts on Monday and squats on Friday. I'd also suggest you swap the dips for bench press, and I don't know what a pallof press is.

What do you think? Maybe try this for three or four months then reassess?

I can't emphasize enough how much I appreciate you were looking into that for me, thanks!

That looks good, I promise I will read all that and give it a try, I just feel 3 days a week is not a lot for me since I used to workout at least 5 days a week, but if you think it is enough for me to get some decent gains, then I will spend the other 2-3 days doing light cardio, stretches and maybe core exercises.

Not my post, but looked at the programs. Ideally, for most people, one wants to hit the major muscle groups 2-3 times a week, emphasizing compound lifts, with at least 48 hours between sessions for the same muscle group. The programs posted fit the bill.

The Pallof press mentioned is an "anti-rotation (core) exercise. Here's a decent video showing it. Can also be done with bands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZkN5MljJY4

If you have access to one, sled pushing/pulling is a good option for your off days. Since there is no eccentric loading involved it's not a big drag on recovery.

https://barbend.com/sled-push/#:~:text=You can do these as,any day of the week.

Another good off-day movement is loaded carries, one of the best things you can do for core. Same as with the sled, there is no eccentric loading so not a big drag on recovery. One thing with the loaded carries you may not want to go super heavy on days before your deadlift and row workouts as you are stressing your grip carrying the weight.

https://www.nsca.com/education/articles/nsca-coach/increase-hip-and-trunk-stability-with-loaded-carries/

Retroguy2000

^ Good suggestions above. I know the knees over toes guy swears by sled for knee health, especially pulling it backwards. And the farmer carries (and dead hangs) will help your grip strength, which OP may need before long for the deadlifts. OP may also want to invest in straps soon. You definitely want your back to be the deciding factor in reaching failure in rows and dl's, not your grip.

e.g. so OP knows what to look for. I have these and they're fine.

https://a.co/d/1opblf7

Or something like Versa Gripps are more expensive, but I hear they're amazing.

LauraLake_Luna

There's a lot of great advice here so I won't go over what everyone else did I'll just add to it for a different perspective.

😌How are your stress levels?
- Your emotional and mental wellbeing play a big role in how your body will use resources as well as how efficient it will be in different areas.
- Even perceived stress takes focus away from digestion, repair, cognitive abilities, etc.

🏃‍♂️Let's talk about cardio
- Steady state cardio adds stress to your body. If you are already experiencing any of the issues above, your cardio could be doing more harm than good.
- You want to use as much naturally occurring HGH (human growth hormone) as possible to build the muscles you want. Stress produces cortisol (whether it's physical or mental stress) and the HGH pairs with the cortisol to mitigate its effect BEFORE it even gets a chance to grow your muscle. If there's too much cortisol and no HGH left, it's very difficult to build.
- Do shorter bursts as warm up, cool down, and lower effort cardio for stress relief.

Your build is the same as my husband's only he's a bit taller. He's always had issues bulking and trying to get his abs to show even with a history of competitive martial arts.

When he toned down his cardio, minimized his stress, focused on lifting heavy, and ate almost twice as many calories as he had before working out, he finally bulked up to a toned 190lbs. Of course, when he stopped eating enough he dropped to 170lbs and when he stopped both, he went back down to 155lbs.

Every body responds slightly differently so tweak things as you go and as you grow.

xMidox

Retroguy2000 wrote: »

xMidox wrote: »

That looks good, I promise I will read all that and give it a try, I just feel 3 days a week is not a lot for me since I used to workout at least 5 days a week, but if you think it is enough for me to get some decent gains, then I will spend the other 2-3 days doing light cardio, stretches and maybe core exercises.

Yeah, browse the whole site. Plenty of good info there, e.g. this page:

https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/workout-program/

This program isn't for life. It's for 3-6 months, to build a good foundation. The 5 reps regimen builds strength, which means you can do more volume (sets * weight * reps) when you switch to a more hypertrophy focused program later, such as Nippard's PPLPPL if you wanted to.

Please don't hate me but I kind of feel that this program is more suitable for me, and I would love your feedback on that: https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/upper-lower-4-day-gym-bodybuilding-workout

I am planning the following:

I'm considering replacing the Dips and maybe pull ups, even though I can do pull ups but want to avoid injury, any advice?

I'll be using a fantastic app called Hevy to record my sets and reps. This app will greatly assist me with progressive overload, allowing me to track my volume effectively. I'll begin with 5-8 reps per set, aiming for 0-3 Reps in Reserve (RIR), and I'll progressively increase volume each week or as much as possible.

I'm considering to do Upper-Lower-rest-Upper-Lower-rest-rest split, as it aligns well with my lifestyle.

For cardio, I'll schedule two sessions per week. One session will involve moderate intensity cardio for 30-45 minutes, while the other will consist of 4 sets of 4-minute intervals, alternating between high intensity and rest.

Currently, I'm consuming 1700 calories per day. I plan to increase my intake to maintenance level, which is around 2100 calories, and maintain this for a couple of weeks. Afterward, I'll gradually add another 100-200 calories while monitoring my waistline. I am just not sure how much gain in my waist is acceptable before considering a mini cut.

Your patience and support mean a lot to me, and I sincerely appreciate any thoughts or feedback on the above plan. Thank you in advance!

Retroguy2000

xMidox wrote: »

Please don't hate me but I kind of feel that this program is more suitable for me, and I would love your feedback on that: https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/upper-lower-4-day-gym-bodybuilding-workout

Everything you wrote sounds fantastic (except for your caution of adding a few calories to boost your muscle building chances...) Ultimately the best program for someone is the one they will stick to. Which is not to suggest this program is any way sub-optimal. To the contrary, it looks great to me. ULUL is a great way to do a 4-day split. It has the right amount of volume, and a focus on compounds before isolation.

You talked about lowering the rep count to 5-8. It's fine to do that some of the time here, but this is not the right program for doing 5 reps on everything. If you're set on changing the listed rep counts, I would advise you only do 5-ish on one U and one L day each, and only on the compounds that day. That's a bit of PHUL. So you'll get a bit more strength focus some of the time, and more hypertrophy focus most of the time.

You also mentioned 0-3 RIR. I do not recommend 3 RIR at all for you. You are not a beginner, and many people misjudge how far away failure is, so what they think is 3 RIR may be 5 or 6 RIR, and that's near useless. Aim for 1-2 RIR on most sets. Do go to 0 RIR on some final sets, but be sure to be safe, so maybe just on the higher rep exercises.

I'm not sure what injury risk you're worried about with pull-ups? It's fine to sub for a different row though.

You might want to sub the planks for a Captain's Chair or something else more challenging for you. Be sure to get abs flexion with those, otherwise you're just doing the hip flexors.

For the leg curl, use the seated leg curl machine and lean forwards. It's proven to produce more hams growth than lying leg curl.

Standing calf raise > seated calf raise, but it's fine to do both.

Re dips, you already have db's in your hands at that point. You could just start doing db skull crushers (not literally to skull, to just behind your head, get a good stretch).

The article says 60-90 seconds rest time. That's too broad. It's however long you need. If you need 3 minutes to be fully cardio recovered and ready to attack the next set, take that. If it's calves or biceps, you might just need 30 seconds. It's going to vary. It's when your cardio is recovered, your muscles are ready to go, and you're mentally ready to go.

For barbell row, check out the RP channel there, I know they have a couple of good videos explaining the form. I see too many people online ego lifting with a nearly vertical back.

PAV8888

This monitoring weight change thing has me a bit perplexed

Initial increase in food or initial increase in exercise +or decreases+.... ignore or de-stress because different baseline.... next week after event more or less is start of relevant baseline.

Plug numbers in app or plug numbers in spreadsheet. Calculate weighted average

Are you gaining more than 1kg a month on average post baseline .... really start checking waist because you're not going slow.

If mostly muscle maybe all good. If not mostly muscle ... slow down by removing 100-150 Cal

Are you not gaining? Add another 100-150Cal

You don't have to time it perfectly. But you do need to have a balance between supportive nutrition and out of control.

I'll let others comment on intervals and moderate cardio schedulesand effects on muscles.

Not sure how active you are outside of a gym not all cardio has to be scheduled and official.

Maybe others have better ideas. 🤷‍♂️

xMidox

Hello everyone,

I wanted to check in after almost 14 weeks of bulking and get some feedback. I’ve been following this workout plan for upper/lower/upper/lower: [Muscle & Strength Workout](https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/upper-lower-4-day-gym-bodybuilding-workout).

I’ve definitely been making progress in terms of volume, reps, and weight—getting stronger and bigger—but not as much as I had hoped. I also feel like I’m putting on a bit of fat.

To track my progress, I’m focusing on these three measures:

**Starting Stats:**
- Weight: 67kg
- Waist Size: 82cm
- Biceps Size: 34cm

**After 4 Months of Bulking:**
- Weight: 71kg
- Waist Size: 85cm
- Biceps Size: 36.8cm

For the first 6 weeks, progress was slow with almost no change in weight, although I did see improvements in the gym with weight, reps, and volume. After that, I increased my calorie intake slightly by about 200-300 calories per day.

**I have a couple of questions:**

1. Given the increase in my waist size, should I consider starting a mini cut now?
2. I’m not very comfortable doing barbell rows. Should I keep trying to do them, or are there any good alternatives I could use?

I’d appreciate any insights or advice you can provide. Thanks!

Retroguy2000

@xMidox 8.8 pounds in 14 weeks works out to about 300 calorie surplus, which is reasonable considering you're starting from lean I assume.

Are you getting about 125g protein daily? Or more, if that's coming from poorer quality sources?

You don't necessarily need to cut, but you might want to drop 200 calories from your current amount, and reassess in two to three months.

Are your work sets close to failure?

What's the issue with barbell row for you? I looked at their video for it, and the guy was standing taller than I do it. Dr. Mike at RP recommends being closer to flat. He has had a couple of great form guides. Anyway, yeah you could try T-bar row, but it may have the same problem for you if your erectors and lower back are limiting you. That can be done with free weights with a landmine attachment keeping one end of the barbell locked in place, or in the gym they'll have chest supported machines. Another option might be chest supported dumbbell row (30 degree bench is good), or you could do those standing and one arm at a time.

xMidox

Retroguy2000 wrote: »

@xMidox 8.8 pounds in 14 weeks works out to about 300 calorie surplus, which is reasonable considering you're starting from lean I assume.

Are you getting about 125g protein daily? Or more, if that's coming from poorer quality sources?

You don't necessarily need to cut, but you might want to drop 200 calories from your current amount, and reassess in two to three months.

Are your work sets close to failure?

What's the issue with barbell row for you? I looked at their video for it, and the guy was standing taller than I do it. Dr. Mike at RP recommends being closer to flat. He has had a couple of great form guides. Anyway, yeah you could try T-bar row, but it may have the same problem for you if your erectors and lower back are limiting you. That can be done with free weights with a landmine attachment keeping one end of the barbell locked in place, or in the gym they'll have chest supported machines. Another option might be chest supported dumbbell row (30 degree bench is good), or you could do those standing and one arm at a time.

I started around 15% - 16% BF, most of those 16 weeks I was eating consistently clean except for some days here and there where I exceeded with foods and dessert

Yes, I am eating more than 150g of protein from chicken, meat, eggs, and whey protein powder.
Yes, I am training very close to failure and I am making progress with weight that I never did before I guess, I was not really paying too much attention to the progress overload but thanks to you guys I am on it now and according to Hevy I am making progress every single workout.

Yes, I saw this video before for Dr Mike, his technique is more comfortable for me, but I still don't feel a lot of muscle connection when I do it, even though I am increasing the weight and also making progress with it, but I was wonder if it was a good idea to replace it with something that I could have better muscle connection with.

do you think that increasing 3cm for the waist while I gain around 4kg in that period is reasonable or it shouldn't have got that big?

Can you please explain why you don't think I should do mini cut and instead going back to maintenance or cutting 200 cals? what should I expect if I do that?

Thanks

Retroguy2000

xMidox wrote: »

do you think that increasing 3cm for the waist while I gain around 4kg in that period is reasonable or it shouldn't have got that big?

Can you please explain why you don't think I should do mini cut and instead going back to maintenance or cutting 200 cals? what should I expect if I do that?

Thanks

Re waist, that's impossible for me to say, even if you posted pics. It's entirely up to you and how you feel.

You could do a cut, sure. Again, up to you. Mostly I'm thinking keep the strength gains going with a much smaller surplus. Assuming you've been on a +300 for this time, going to say +100 would slow your weight gain significantly, while still keeping the muscle gains going.

You could also add a compound set to the first compound exercises each day. Currently you're on 10 per week, which is fine, but it's also at the low end of recommendations for a beginner, and you say you aren't too happy with current progress. Don't fall foul to unrealistic expectations there btw. Certainly compared to social media where many people are "enhanced".

xMidox

Thanks, I already added a set to bench press and a set to barbell row and squat. In terms of progress I think I am doing ok and I am satisfied with the results, my friends noticed I gained muscle but I am noticing I am getting fat. Maybe I am getting fat in the normal range but I can’t tolerate this psychology.

I think I will keep in surplus (smaller amount as you suggested) until beginning of October then I will do a mini cut for 4-6 weeks while I recover from fatigue, that was also suggested by dr Mike. In case I feel fatigued or gained much fat then mini cut is the way to go he said, and maybe it will be a good time for me to recover, miss food and getting a bit leaner to be ready for another 12-16 weeks of surplus’s before I go to a proper cutting phase for 3 month, what do you think brother about this plan?