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Economic impact of overweight and obesity to surpass $4 trillion in 10 years
Replies
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MargaretYakoda wrote: »sollyn23l2 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »SafariGalNYC wrote: »A big impact could come from changing the menus of public school lunches and offering nutrition classes.
I taught in public and private schools in NYC for a while - I remember the huge difference in what was offered for lunch.
This was a part of my wake up call. Such a disparity in the quality of food.
The board of ed still has their menus online - they offer pizza, chicken nuggets, mozzarella sticks, fries. There are also salad offerings but these are paired with tubs of high sugar, hi cal dressings and as a compliment to the mains above.
When I taught in a very high end private high school (tuition >$50k per year) the cafeteria was like 4 star dining. They did not offer anything they did not deem “healthy”. Lunches were salmon, chicken breast, lean proteins , all shades of vegetables. No soda or fruit juice allowed. No added sugar, no fried foods.. no vending machines.
Is it economic? A tale of 2 cities?
We spend a fortune on public schools and the quickest way to make a change would be to change what’s offered in public school lunches. It’s just as easy to promote the cafeteria as a place of learning for the public schools as it is in the $$$ private schools.
Years ago when my kid was in elementary school we were on the free lunch program.
Which meant we were also entitled to the free breakfast program.
The teachers pestered me constantly about making sure my kid was on time for the free breakfast, and I politely but firmly refused. I saw two things happening there.
1) The breakfasts were disgusting. Sunny Delight (which is not orange juice!) Pop Tarts, and donuts. Not even milk and cereal. Forget about a healthy bowl of oatmeal!
And the kids only had about 15 minutes total to wolf it down.
A lifetime of bad habits, brought to you by the American Public School System.
2) Unlike the lunches, everyone was able to see who got the free breakfast. Marking those kids as an obvious underclass. Which absolutely did skew the perception of others. Especially other parents. Which, in a small town, has an impact beyond just the school system.
In second grade my kid - completely on their own - decided to become a vegetarian. Keep in mind we were still on the free lunch program.
Our school at the time was unified. Three buildings on one campus. The same staff providing all breakfasts and lunches for Head Start through High School.
And I informed the cafeteria staff that my kid would need vegetarian meals. I had a lot of discussions with them about this. And was assured that my kid would be provided a proper lunch.
But my kid was coming home very hungry every day.
Turns out the cafeteria staff was refusing to accommodate the vegetarian kid. Like, just flat refusing. My kid would be served milk and a slice of bread. Just that. Every day. For months
I was livid. But I was nice to their faces. I tried to reason with them. I asked if there were other vegetarian students and was told only at the high school. “There are no vegetarian students in the elementary school”
I pointed out that there was at least one…. That went over pretty badly. 🤣
I asked why they were able to feed the vegetarian high school kids but not provide for the vegetarian grade school students and I even offered to provide veggie burger patties for them to feed my kid on days when they had hamburgers. The cafeteria people just flat refused to provide the legally mandated meals my kid was entitled to.
I resorted to packing my kid a cold lunch, even though it was another strain on our budget.
Fast forward a couple years and the local soda bottling plant donated a scoreboard to the high school. Which caused a bit of an uproar because, despite what I just described, we’re a relatively prosperous area and there’s a lot of people who are the sort who try to limit their kid’s exposure to advertising, and their sugar consumption, etc. Typical Hippie Crunchy Granola middle class stuff.
Because it was the soda bottling plant that donated the sign, some parents had a lot of questions. And many learned for the first time that there are soda machines at the high school. Which the cafeteria people were not concerned with because “the biggest seller is water!” (I pointed out that there’s free water in the filtered fountain 30 feet away but… )
Anyway. At this extremely energized school board meeting the head cafeteria staff said “I don’t care. If we got Mars Bars for free, we would serve them to these kids every day!”
I thought that was one heckuva admission….
Anyway. That’s a lot of words for “We have a lot of work to do to get the US on to a healthy path”
I'm not sure where you live, but in the school districts I work in, they only accommodate medically required diets, not dietary preferences. We are up front with parents about this and they have to go to the doctor and get a medical statement that their child requires a specific diet for an allergy or whatever medical condition. Outside of that, parents have to send a lynch in with the child if they don't want them to eat a certain food. And yes, I've had to tell vegetarian parents this. Unfortunately, it's just not plausible to accommodate all dietary preferences in a school system.
1) They told me that they would accommodate a vegetarian diet
And then they just fed my kid a single slice of bread and a carton of milk.
2) They were feeding the vegetarian high school students.
Generally free meals are not offered in high school. High schoolers have to pay. Does the high school offer free meals where you are at? Just curious. Things always work a bit differently in different locations. And I agree that they should never have told you they could accommodate a vegetarian diet given that they were unable to do so.1 -
Well, around 88% of the population are sick and have at least 1 non communicable disease, so that doesn't leave a lot of upside as far as the total amount of people so I suspect it'll come down to each person eating more of those really yummy foods that people seem to love more than being blind or losing a limb. I think we should all move to the wilderness of the pacific north west and eat critters and grow stuff.
Personally I consume mostly whole foods and that's gotten me much healthier and I've stayed that way, so I'll continue to do that, complicated, not so much, hard to do, yep apparently. 1 -
Leo, I understand you have a diet preference, and if it keeps you from being one of the 1 billion people with weight problems, costing us trillions of dollars, and you’re happy, that’s a win for me! I saw “moderation” all over the first page of Google too. Glad we agree on that. I really mean it.0
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@AnnPT77 You really painted a picture for us here. I knew I was spoiled but now I feel especially so. Your last sentence sums it up for me, “We have met the enemy and he is us". It doesn’t have to be this way, but we’ve created an uphill battle, that’s for sure. There’s gotta be something we can do to start caring and taking this more seriously. Seems like that will only happen when it hurts.0
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MargaretYakoda wrote: »SafariGalNYC wrote: »A big impact could come from changing the menus of public school lunches and offering nutrition classes.
I taught in public and private schools in NYC for a while - I remember the huge difference in what was offered for lunch.
This was a part of my wake up call. Such a disparity in the quality of food.
The board of ed still has their menus online - they offer pizza, chicken nuggets, mozzarella sticks, fries. There are also salad offerings but these are paired with tubs of high sugar, hi cal dressings and as a compliment to the mains above.
When I taught in a very high end private high school (tuition >$50k per year) the cafeteria was like 4 star dining. They did not offer anything they did not deem “healthy”. Lunches were salmon, chicken breast, lean proteins , all shades of vegetables. No soda or fruit juice allowed. No added sugar, no fried foods.. no vending machines.
Is it economic? A tale of 2 cities?
We spend a fortune on public schools and the quickest way to make a change would be to change what’s offered in public school lunches. It’s just as easy to promote the cafeteria as a place of learning for the public schools as it is in the $$$ private schools.
Years ago when my kid was in elementary school we were on the free lunch program.
Which meant we were also entitled to the free breakfast program.
The teachers pestered me constantly about making sure my kid was on time for the free breakfast, and I politely but firmly refused. I saw two things happening there.
1) The breakfasts were disgusting. Sunny Delight (which is not orange juice!) Pop Tarts, and donuts. Not even milk and cereal. Forget about a healthy bowl of oatmeal!
And the kids only had about 15 minutes total to wolf it down.
A lifetime of bad habits, brought to you by the American Public School System.
2) Unlike the lunches, everyone was able to see who got the free breakfast. Marking those kids as an obvious underclass. Which absolutely did skew the perception of others. Especially other parents. Which, in a small town, has an impact beyond just the school system.
In second grade my kid - completely on their own - decided to become a vegetarian. Keep in mind we were still on the free lunch program.
Our school at the time was unified. Three buildings on one campus. The same staff providing all breakfasts and lunches for Head Start through High School.
And I informed the cafeteria staff that my kid would need vegetarian meals. I had a lot of discussions with them about this. And was assured that my kid would be provided a proper lunch.
But my kid was coming home very hungry every day.
Turns out the cafeteria staff was refusing to accommodate the vegetarian kid. Like, just flat refusing. My kid would be served milk and a slice of bread. Just that. Every day. For months
I was livid. But I was nice to their faces. I tried to reason with them. I asked if there were other vegetarian students and was told only at the high school. “There are no vegetarian students in the elementary school”
I pointed out that there was at least one…. That went over pretty badly. 🤣
I asked why they were able to feed the vegetarian high school kids but not provide for the vegetarian grade school students and I even offered to provide veggie burger patties for them to feed my kid on days when they had hamburgers. The cafeteria people just flat refused to provide the legally mandated meals my kid was entitled to.
I resorted to packing my kid a cold lunch, even though it was another strain on our budget.
Fast forward a couple years and the local soda bottling plant donated a scoreboard to the high school. Which caused a bit of an uproar because, despite what I just described, we’re a relatively prosperous area and there’s a lot of people who are the sort who try to limit their kid’s exposure to advertising, and their sugar consumption, etc. Typical Hippie Crunchy Granola middle class stuff.
Because it was the soda bottling plant that donated the sign, some parents had a lot of questions. And many learned for the first time that there are soda machines at the high school. Which the cafeteria people were not concerned with because “the biggest seller is water!” (I pointed out that there’s free water in the filtered fountain 30 feet away but… )
Anyway. At this extremely energized school board meeting the head cafeteria staff said “I don’t care. If we got Mars Bars for free, we would serve them to these kids every day!”
I thought that was one heckuva admission….
Anyway. That’s a lot of words for “We have a lot of work to do to get the US on to a healthy path”
We can build pyramids, paint the Sistine Chapel, but we don’t get why free mars bars would be a bad choice for kids. Yikes.1 -
I think we should all move to the wilderness of the pacific north west and eat critters and grow stuff.
Don’t take my spot! 😆 No, really though, that will probably be the future, communes of people going back to more minimalistic ways. But, unfortunately that 4 Trillion tax bill will find you.0 -
@AnnPT77 You really painted a picture for us here. I knew I was spoiled but now I feel especially so. Your last sentence sums it up for me, “We have met the enemy and he is us". It doesn’t have to be this way, but we’ve created an uphill battle, that’s for sure. There’s gotta be something we can do to start caring and taking this more seriously. Seems like that will only happen when it hurts.
Part of the problem here is that in some sense, over-eating high-energy, non-filling foods and sitting still "feels good" . . . in the moment. The negative consequences creep on, almost imperceptibly slowly, and they're distant from the root cause.
Both of those things - IMO - have clearly been wired into humans by millennia of natural selection. We evolved during mostly higher risk of famine when gorging ourselves with high energy food had some usefulness, and when our "danger - fix it!" circuits were attuned to immediate risks and immediate consequences like predators, quick-acting poisons, physical injuries, perceived enemies. We have "fight or flight" hormones, not "failure of long-term planning" hormones.
Occasionally, when I've commented on threads here that certain hyperpalatable foods don't - IMO - even taste good (too simple, no nuance, etc.), I've gotten push back that I'm yucking other people's yum. That's debatable: I don't see why my liking or disliking foods ought to have any effect on other people's enjoyment of things they like.
That - the fact that people feel personally criticized when others have different preferences in things that clearly are about personal taste, not morality or worth as a human, let alone objective facts - is part of something I mentioned upthread, the human tendency to create norms and want to fit in. That's how we create societies, cultures.
I'm not saying that being a contrarian on food preferences is some noble thing, because it's not. But I do think it would behoove people to give a thought to whether the foods they routinely eat truly taste good and satisfying . . . or only push the evolutionary buttons that make us reach for sugars, starches, and fats. Bolstering that sugar-starch-fat inclination is IMO where food marketing comes in: All the happy pretty people eat at McDonald's (or whatever, wherever), according to the ads. We want to be part of the happy pretty people, to fit in, to be cool and popular.
I'm way oversimplifying here, doing so for clarity and effect, and I'm sure I've insulted a bunch of people along the way.
In the US, my perception is that tobacco consumption took major nosedives when two things happened: Taxes made it expensive (some impact), and smokers were socially ostracized when smoking was incrementally banned from public/shared spaces (bigger impact, as unscientifically measured by when I saw numbers of people around me quit, or cut waaaay back). Mere warnings, even dire warnings, had quite limited impact.
I'm not saying we should ostracize people who eat cookies, are inactive, or who are overweight. That's dumb. I'm saying it may be useful to recognize humans' wired-in mechanisms that underpin the "obesity crisis". Appealing to rationality has a poor track record in influencing people at the population level.
When it comes to the "immediate acute consequences" human hardwiring, that's also a factor behind other societal-level issues. One example is disinclination to save for retirement (for those for whom it's arguably financially viable). Another is estate planning (that one's amped up by a human disinclination to think about unpleasant things). Immediate rewards and dangers affect our decisions much more strongly than gradual, long-term ones. There's quite a lot of research around this, such as in criminology and criminal justice. I admit I don't follow that research closely, but from what I've read, the slow wheels of the US justice system tend to increase crime commission and recidivism, as one example. We don't expect our dog to understand and respond well when we scold them 10 hours after they do something we don't like; humans' memory and reaction time may be longer, but there are limits.
There's some interesting work in behavioral economics and related social sciences about the impact of nudging and defaulting as tools to deal with problems like these: Finding ways to make relatively small changes that (statistically) tip people's behavior in a positive direction without strictly constraining their choices. (The "Concepts" section of the Wikipedia article on behavioral economics, here outlines some of the underlying ideas in a generic (not health/weight specific) way, if you're unfamiliar with these ideas and interested. The article on nudge theory has some applied examples.) While this is limited-evidence stuff still, I think it's interesting in contexts like our current "debate".
Yes, techniques based on those concepts are manipulative. I've long argued that we can't avoid influencing behavior via public policy, so we might as well try to understand how those influences operate and try to use them for good instead of just doing seemingly-good stuff and seeing what happens. (I made the same argument to managers who reported to me in the work context, that they unavoidably influence people who report to them so they should do so consciously and with positive intentions, rather than just "acting naturally" and letting the chips fall where they may.)
Ugh. Another flippin' essay. Enough rant for now.
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rileysowner wrote: »@rileysowner
I appreciate your feedback. What do you say when carnivore doesn’t work for the masses? What if they’re like me, most of their calories are from carbs, protein, and fat, in that order? I’m healthy (now), but would you tell me what I’m doing is going to cause health problems in the future? If not, why not?
More importantly, are you allowing a healthy balanced variety of food to be embraced by the masses? Or are you demonizing foods that could prevent a healthy balance of food?
This post isn’t about excuses or promoting a certain diet, because that’s impossible, so what balanced approach do you have?
I said I eat Ketovore. I didn't say everyone should. I said they should avoid most processed food and start cooking meals from whole ingredients. Don't put words into my mouth.
I certainly didn’t try to put words in your mouth, just accidentally used the wrong term. I like the simple recommendation, cook real food! It should be that simple. We make it so hard
The terms I think are what trip people up. Like, who cares? If we stick to “eat real food” most of the time we are getting somewhere. The only thing missing is… in a calorie balance.
My personal experience is once I started actually cooking real food, I found my appetite regulated somewhat better. I did that just counting calories for two months before going Keto, and I lost weight at the same rate I did when I switched to Keto. The problem was that my blood work continued to get worse while eating at a deficit even though it was real food cooked from scratch. That is why I went Keto, and it worked for me even better at controlling my appetite. I went more meat based largely because it was simpler than counting carbs in terms of cooking, but I still eat some veggies, just not a lot. However, as I said, eating real food in itself started to regulate my hunger signals. It didn't do it completely, but it was certainly a step in the right direction. Once I got away from the mass produced hyperpalatable foods, self control was much easier. They still tempted me, which they really don't any longer, so that would still be an issue for those going to real food. My main point is that we have huge industries designed around and depending on encouraging consumption of their products. Then there is a huge pharma industry that makes more money off the various medications needed. I don't think it is some conspiracy. It is just businesses doing what businesses do. However, it is not in the interest of the individual who ends up on a handful of medications for things that could be dealt with through dietary and lifestyle changes which would reduce the costs cited at the beginning of all this.2 -
"foods" engineered to be hyperpalatable is the foundation of ultra processed foods which typically are a combination of carbohydrates, sugar, fat and salt which triggers the brains reward system which interferes with the body's ability to regulate appetite and satiety which encourages excessive eating, this isn't rocket science, it's a well documented fact and has been for decades. Ann touched on our evolutionary adaptive abilities that helped us survive that are now turning out to be our nemesis, isn't that special.1
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Leo, I understand you have a diet preference, and if it keeps you from being one of the 1 billion people with weight problems, costing us trillions of dollars, and you’re happy, that’s a win for me! I saw “moderation” all over the first page of Google too. Glad we agree on that. I really mean it.
Dafuq? You wanted a debate on how we tackle obesity. I mentioned getting readily available, reliable information would be helpful. I was met with "he only listens to pseudoscience from youtubers".
I post an example of what I meant, with links to scientific studies to back them up but you choose to just read over it because you feel I'm just arguing for the
sake of my preferred diet. 🤨🤨🤨
Anyway I'm out, enjoy your debate.5 -
Leo_King84 wrote: »Leo, I understand you have a diet preference, and if it keeps you from being one of the 1 billion people with weight problems, costing us trillions of dollars, and you’re happy, that’s a win for me! I saw “moderation” all over the first page of Google too. Glad we agree on that. I really mean it.
Dafuq? You wanted a debate on how we tackle obesity. I mentioned getting readily available, reliable information would be helpful. I was met with "he only listens to pseudoscience from youtubers".
I post an example of what I meant, with links to scientific studies to back them up but you choose to just read over it because you feel I'm just arguing for the
sake of my preferred diet. 🤨🤨🤨
Anyway I'm out, enjoy your debate.
I didn’t say that to you. I think you’re mixing me up with someone else. I do like your contribution and hope you choose to stick around if you have more to add to the topic, specifically what you think we can do to improve our situation now and in the future.0 -
rileysowner wrote: »rileysowner wrote: »@rileysowner
I appreciate your feedback. What do you say when carnivore doesn’t work for the masses? What if they’re like me, most of their calories are from carbs, protein, and fat, in that order? I’m healthy (now), but would you tell me what I’m doing is going to cause health problems in the future? If not, why not?
More importantly, are you allowing a healthy balanced variety of food to be embraced by the masses? Or are you demonizing foods that could prevent a healthy balance of food?
This post isn’t about excuses or promoting a certain diet, because that’s impossible, so what balanced approach do you have?
I said I eat Ketovore. I didn't say everyone should. I said they should avoid most processed food and start cooking meals from whole ingredients. Don't put words into my mouth.
I certainly didn’t try to put words in your mouth, just accidentally used the wrong term. I like the simple recommendation, cook real food! It should be that simple. We make it so hard The terms I think are what trip people up. Like, who cares? If we stick to “eat real food” most of the time we are getting somewhere. The only thing missing is… in a calorie balance.
My personal experience is once I started actually cooking real food, I found my appetite regulated somewhat better. I did that just counting calories for two months before going Keto, and I lost weight at the same rate I did when I switched to Keto. The problem was that my blood work continued to get worse while eating at a deficit even though it was real food cooked from scratch. That is why I went Keto, and it worked for me even better at controlling my appetite. I went more meat based largely because it was simpler than counting carbs in terms of cooking, but I still eat some veggies, just not a lot. However, as I said, eating real food in itself started to regulate my hunger signals. It didn't do it completely, but it was certainly a step in the right direction. Once I got away from the mass produced hyperpalatable foods, self control was much easier. They still tempted me, which they really don't any longer, so that would still be an issue for those going to real food. My main point is that we have huge industries designed around and depending on encouraging consumption of their products. Then there is a huge pharma industry that makes more money off the various medications needed. I don't think it is some conspiracy. It is just businesses doing what businesses do. However, it is not in the interest of the individual who ends up on a handful of medications for things that could be dealt with through dietary and lifestyle changes which would reduce the costs cited at the beginning of all this.
Agree on all counts really. And I think if we change the way we eat and what we care about those businesses will follow suit. Have any thoughts on what changes could be made with insurance companies to improve our health focus? So far it doesn’t seem like it’s doing enough, if anything it’s hurting healthy families.1 -
neanderthin wrote: »"foods" engineered to be hyperpalatable is the foundation of ultra processed foods which typically are a combination of carbohydrates, sugar, fat and salt which triggers the brains reward system which interferes with the body's ability to regulate appetite and satiety which encourages excessive eating, this isn't rocket science, it's a well documented fact and has been for decades. Ann touched on our evolutionary adaptive abilities that helped us survive that are now turning out to be our nemesis, isn't that special.
I think we all know this to be true, no argument there. The question is, what do we do about it? How do we get people to care about the impact they’re making to not just themselves but our kids, community, and society. This isn’t a personal problem, it’s an everyone problem. I agree weight gain can be a slow slippery slope and then one day you wake up and realize you’re breathing heavy when you go up the stairs. It can sneak up on you. I get it. But we need to reframe the way we think about our impact and how it’s not just about “me”. And if we don’t then personal accountability will be off the table and will eventually be controlled by someone else. Maybe that’s what it’s gonna take. I’d rather it not though.0 -
neanderthin wrote: »"foods" engineered to be hyperpalatable is the foundation of ultra processed foods which typically are a combination of carbohydrates, sugar, fat and salt which triggers the brains reward system which interferes with the body's ability to regulate appetite and satiety which encourages excessive eating, this isn't rocket science, it's a well documented fact and has been for decades. Ann touched on our evolutionary adaptive abilities that helped us survive that are now turning out to be our nemesis, isn't that special.
I think we all know this to be true, no argument there. The question is, what do we do about it? How do we get people to care about the impact they’re making to not just themselves but our kids, community, and society. This isn’t a personal problem, it’s an everyone problem. I agree weight gain can be a slow slippery slope and then one day you wake up and realize you’re breathing heavy when you go up the stairs. It can sneak up on you. I get it. But we need to reframe the way we think about our impact and how it’s not just about “me”. And if we don’t then personal accountability will be off the table and will eventually be controlled by someone else. Maybe that’s what it’s gonna take. I’d rather it not though.
I don't know if there is a way. People, myself included until recently, predominantly seem to think everything is fine and just want a pill or something similar to fix the health issues. Maybe I am too pessimistic, but it isn't like the dangers have not been made public for decades. It seems no matter what, people either are too "addicted" (I use that term hesitantly) or too uncaring about those dangers. I constantly need to remind myself that the community here is but a small subset of the population, and one that cares about these things far more.1 -
rileysowner wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »"foods" engineered to be hyperpalatable is the foundation of ultra processed foods which typically are a combination of carbohydrates, sugar, fat and salt which triggers the brains reward system which interferes with the body's ability to regulate appetite and satiety which encourages excessive eating, this isn't rocket science, it's a well documented fact and has been for decades. Ann touched on our evolutionary adaptive abilities that helped us survive that are now turning out to be our nemesis, isn't that special.
I think we all know this to be true, no argument there. The question is, what do we do about it? How do we get people to care about the impact they’re making to not just themselves but our kids, community, and society. This isn’t a personal problem, it’s an everyone problem. I agree weight gain can be a slow slippery slope and then one day you wake up and realize you’re breathing heavy when you go up the stairs. It can sneak up on you. I get it. But we need to reframe the way we think about our impact and how it’s not just about “me”. And if we don’t then personal accountability will be off the table and will eventually be controlled by someone else. Maybe that’s what it’s gonna take. I’d rather it not though.
I don't know if there is a way. People, myself included until recently, predominantly seem to think everything is fine and just want a pill or something similar to fix the health issues. Maybe I am too pessimistic, but it isn't like the dangers have not been made public for decades. It seems no matter what, people either are too "addicted" (I use that term hesitantly) or too uncaring about those dangers. I constantly need to remind myself that the community here is but a small subset of the population, and one that cares about these things far more.
I hear you. I have 3 kids and I’m a big sister for the BBBS program and I want to be optimistic for them or fear will set in. Another poster here mentioned she tries her best to improve everyday and do what she can. I try to instill that in our kids. I try to find a balance between being frustrated that we have to suffer for the decisions of others, with compassion and empathy because it isn’t easy.0 -
neanderthin wrote: »"foods" engineered to be hyperpalatable is the foundation of ultra processed foods which typically are a combination of carbohydrates, sugar, fat and salt which triggers the brains reward system which interferes with the body's ability to regulate appetite and satiety which encourages excessive eating, this isn't rocket science, it's a well documented fact and has been for decades. Ann touched on our evolutionary adaptive abilities that helped us survive that are now turning out to be our nemesis, isn't that special.
I think we all know this to be true, no argument there. The question is, what do we do about it? How do we get people to care about the impact they’re making to not just themselves but our kids, community, and society. This isn’t a personal problem, it’s an everyone problem. I agree weight gain can be a slow slippery slope and then one day you wake up and realize you’re breathing heavy when you go up the stairs. It can sneak up on you. I get it. But we need to reframe the way we think about our impact and how it’s not just about “me”. And if we don’t then personal accountability will be off the table and will eventually be controlled by someone else. Maybe that’s what it’s gonna take. I’d rather it not though.
Before I fix the world I'm obligated to fix myself first and foremost, then I might have some advice, but unfortunately that would only be anecdotal. And my basic anecdotal advice is to replace some UPF with more whole food as a first step and I suspect that will be a very tough go for the vast majority of people, small steps first.3 -
Pretty authoritarian point of view to control and require what other people weigh and choose to eat; especially when the food choices are legal and readily available for sale.
-- I would not want to live under a government that dictated what and how much I ate or weigh.
-- nor do I ever want to be shamed nor denigrated for making what is a legal and available choice. My choice is my choice to make. It is not an excuse. It is a choice I make, all things considered and I'm rather certain no one wants to know what I think of their choice. It is their choice, not mine. As they say, you do you and stay out of my business - sometimes that boundary needs to be stated. This is wholly different than having a beneficial discussion of possibilities and information sharing which I thoroughly enjoy throughout the forums.
Personally, I don't think you can legislate nor dictate weight and ways of eating. Beneficial changes can be encouraged through government policies in terms of education, providing supportive medical insurance coverages, meal/food distribution programs through schools and for the various supplemental support programs. Same for corporations and products based on consumer demand. How do you increase consumer demand? Education and other supportive policies so the people desire different foods....
-- have observed though, that various solutions have been hotly debated over the decades and often there is overwhelming resistance from lobbyists/corporations and even the public.... There seems to be $$ in keeping people consuming lots and lots and lots of these legal foods... Not sure that will change in the near future.4 -
Adventurista wrote: »Pretty authoritarian point of view to control and require what other people weigh and choose to eat; especially when the food choices are legal and readily available for sale.
-- I would not want to live under a government that dictated what and how much I ate or weigh.
-- nor do I ever want to be shamed nor denigrated for making what is a legal and available choice. My choice is my choice to make. It is not an excuse. It is a choice I make, all things considered and I'm rather certain no one wants to know what I think of their choice. It is their choice, not mine. As they say, you do you and stay out of my business - sometimes that boundary needs to be stated. This is wholly different than having a beneficial discussion of possibilities and information sharing which I thoroughly enjoy throughout the forums.
Personally, I don't think you can legislate nor dictate weight and ways of eating. Beneficial changes can be encouraged through government policies in terms of education, providing supportive medical insurance coverages, meal/food distribution programs through schools and for the various supplemental support programs. Same for corporations and products based on consumer demand. How do you increase consumer demand? Education and other supportive policies so the people desire different foods....
-- have observed though, that various solutions have been hotly debated over the decades and often there is overwhelming resistance from lobbyists/corporations and even the public.... There seems to be $$ in keeping people consuming lots and lots and lots of these legal foods... Not sure that will change in the near future.
Exactly this. I agree that the answer is not in trying to legislate or dictate dietary choices... that wouldn't work anyway. And yes, there are billions upon billions of dollars keeping people eating highly processed foods. There is no easy answer, and likely never will be.2 -
Adventurista wrote: »Pretty authoritarian point of view to control and require what other people weigh and choose to eat; especially when the food choices are legal and readily available for sale.
-- I would not want to live under a government that dictated what and how much I ate or weigh.
-- nor do I ever want to be shamed nor denigrated for making what is a legal and available choice. My choice is my choice to make. It is not an excuse. It is a choice I make, all things considered and I'm rather certain no one wants to know what I think of their choice. It is their choice, not mine. As they say, you do you and stay out of my business - sometimes that boundary needs to be stated. This is wholly different than having a beneficial discussion of possibilities and information sharing which I thoroughly enjoy throughout the forums.
Personally, I don't think you can legislate nor dictate weight and ways of eating. Beneficial changes can be encouraged through government policies in terms of education, providing supportive medical insurance coverages, meal/food distribution programs through schools and for the various supplemental support programs. Same for corporations and products based on consumer demand. How do you increase consumer demand? Education and other supportive policies so the people desire different foods....
-- have observed though, that various solutions have been hotly debated over the decades and often there is overwhelming resistance from lobbyists/corporations and even the public.... There seems to be $$ in keeping people consuming lots and lots and lots of these legal foods... Not sure that will change in the near future.
I don’t think anyone has an authoritarian pov here, maybe I missed some posts further up, I’ll have to go back. I think we all want to continue to make our own choice in when, what, and how much we eat. The problem is, those choices are costing us 4 Trillion dollars, killing people, and effecting our community. This is the only part I don’t agree with you on. You think that this is non of my business, and I truly wish it wasn’t, but unfortunately obesity has become my business, my families business, and my communities business. And it will continue to be everyone’s business until people can be responsible for themselves. All I know is, what anyone else chooses to eat is the last thing I care to know unless I’m asking for the recipe 😆.
often there is overwhelming resistance from lobbyists/corporations and even the public.... There seems to be $$ in keeping people consuming lots and lots and lots of these legal foods... Not sure that will change in the near future.
I completely agree, there’s so much push back on creating positive change because there’s no money in it. But we shouldn’t rely on the government to create policies. We should be handling this at home with ourselves and our families. You said “Beneficial changes can be encouraged through government policies in terms of education, providing supportive medical insurance coverages, meal/food distribution programs through schools and for the various supplemental support programs.” Who pays for that? This is where some of that 4 Trillion dollars is coming from, so it’s just throwing money at a problem most people ignore, IMO. I would be so much more excited about giving the government more of my money if it actually helped, but it’s proving to do the opposite. I think at the end of the day the real change needs to come from us to care, to research like most of us have here, and make the decision to be more active and cook/eat real food. We have to want more for our families than convenience and pills to make everything okay.
Thank you so much for your feedback, and your thorough response. I think this is really interesting, intriguing, and slightly terrifying lol but it’s important to keep the conversation going.
Think I’ll go meditate now 🧘🏼♀️😌.
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neanderthin wrote: »"foods" engineered to be hyperpalatable is the foundation of ultra processed foods which typically are a combination of carbohydrates, sugar, fat and salt which triggers the brains reward system which interferes with the body's ability to regulate appetite and satiety which encourages excessive eating, this isn't rocket science, it's a well documented fact and has been for decades. Ann touched on our evolutionary adaptive abilities that helped us survive that are now turning out to be our nemesis, isn't that special.
I think we all know this to be true, no argument there. The question is, what do we do about it? How do we get people to care about the impact they’re making to not just themselves but our kids, community, and society. This isn’t a personal problem, it’s an everyone problem. I agree weight gain can be a slow slippery slope and then one day you wake up and realize you’re breathing heavy when you go up the stairs. It can sneak up on you. I get it. But we need to reframe the way we think about our impact and how it’s not just about “me”. And if we don’t then personal accountability will be off the table and will eventually be controlled by someone else. Maybe that’s what it’s gonna take. I’d rather it not though.
Bold is mine.
From the 'no excuses' in the op as a discussion criteria (which imho shuts down authentic, perhaps valid replies...) and to the portion bolded in the quote, and to other comments within the entirety of this discussion, again, my choice and no one's business if I puchase and overeat legal substance be it food, alchohol, vapes, extreme sport eating contests. By definition, these are legal and to reiterate, my choice and none of anyone elses business. To suggest that my choices and weight be dictated.... well, i don't agree, never will.
As to how we might help people desire different foods or lifestyles, sure, government policies could be changed, as an illustration... so kids are not provided pop tarts for breakfast nor served ketchup as a vegetable...
Alcohol prohibition was tried and abandoned. Now, in some states, drugs are being decriminalized and houselessness is acute and rising. People are not afforded essential shelter, allowed to live and die on the street... Today the US Supreme court heard arguments on whether it is ok to punish people for camping in public space without elsewhere to go....
-- and others would want to regulate my food choices. I think not.
2 -
No one said it should be dictated I don’t believe. You are welcome to show me where it does, like I said I may have missed it.
And if you don’t like my passionate writing style, where I said no blame, no excuses, it is to encourage productive action steps, not blame other people for our choices. Again, that has nothing to do with you eating what you want or it being dictated by anyone. Maybe you haven’t read the whole thread.
I can’t respond to much of your post because you’re arguing about something that didn’t happen and that no one wants.
The only thing I disagree with is that the obesity epidemic that is a global emergency is my concern and should be all of ours. I guess we can agree to disagree there.1 -
Sorry to not conform to your requirements of discussion @ddsb1111 - thought i was quite clear in the comments I referenced and my expressed opinion of the topic of discussion.... my legal choices are not for others to make...
Out.3 -
sollyn23l2 wrote: »Just a quick aside... in the US we do govern the nuclear family. You cannot legally marry three people together.... polyamory and polygamy are not legally recognized as marriages by the government.
Also, many disabled people in the US would lose their SSDI benefits if they marry.
Which forces some people into greater poverty, thus reducing their ability to make healthy choices in diet, exercise, and other activities.
2 -
Adventurista wrote: »Sorry to not conform to your requirements of discussion @ddsb1111 - thought i was quite clear in the comments I referenced and my expressed opinion of the topic of discussion.... my legal choices are not for others to make...
Out.
I can’t tell if you’re purposely ignoring that I agree, and want no legal choices taken away from anyone. This is the last time I will repeat this to you because arguing a non-argument is pointless. No one wants legal choices taken away. That’s the whole reason for the post- What can we do to make things better. I think you already contributed to how you think we could make it better, and thank you for that contribution.
0 -
When food is doled out and controlled, even if the quality isn't the greatest, then population will usually stay within weight limits for their body. A good example of this is prisons. People incarcerated in prisons have set times to eat, a limited amount (they can't go back for seconds) and usually are sedentary for most of the day. There isn't an obesity epedemic there. The ones that are overweight usually came in that way and if they are long term, they likely have money to access commissary which is usually nothing but junk food.
Captialism rules here and food companies and health care aren't as concerned about our health because what we're doing to ourselves makes them more money.Leo_King84 wrote: »I mean we're not the ones who put so much junk in our foods to make it go further and taste better, are we.
Sure it's our choice what we actually do eat but when you've got 100 different variations all covered in buzz words like low fat, low sugar it's kinda hard to pick the right ones.
Not to mention a health care system that just pushes more pills onto you rather than address real causes.
It is TOTALLY the responsibility of the individual. I've spoken many times about how when people immigrate from poorer countries to here, get a good job and within 10 years are 30-50lbs heavier when they arrived. More money for individuals ALLOWS them to indulge and that's a conscious decision. Sure, you want to enjoy things you may have never had or tasted, but overindulgence seems to just continue.
Also my opinion is that people are more concerned with status than health which is why they forego things like eating more sensibly and having a routine physical fitness program to keep them fit.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
You’ve been doing this a long time, do you think the cost and impact is too immense for people to take 4 Trillion and 1/2 the globe being over weight personally? What does it take?
Using Leo’s (sorry Leo) excuse of ‘it’s not fair’ reasoning, what if that 4 Trillion only impacted those in that demographic, and it didn’t impact those who don’t contribute to the epidemic? Would that make a difference? Since, technically speaking, it’s not fair to those who aren’t obese?
I’m probably going to throw out a lot of random scenarios to see what connects.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
When food is doled out and controlled, even if the quality isn't the greatest, then population will usually stay within weight limits for their body. A good example of this is prisons. People incarcerated in prisons have set times to eat, a limited amount (they can't go back for seconds) and usually are sedentary for most of the day. There isn't an obesity epedemic there. The ones that are overweight usually came in that way and if they are long term, they likely have money to access commissary which is usually nothing but junk food.
Captialism rules here and food companies and health care aren't as concerned about our health because what we're doing to ourselves makes them more money.Leo_King84 wrote: »I mean we're not the ones who put so much junk in our foods to make it go further and taste better, are we.
Sure it's our choice what we actually do eat but when you've got 100 different variations all covered in buzz words like low fat, low sugar it's kinda hard to pick the right ones.
Not to mention a health care system that just pushes more pills onto you rather than address real causes.
It is TOTALLY the responsibility of the individual. I've spoken many times about how when people immigrate from poorer countries to here, get a good job and within 10 years are 30-50lbs heavier when they arrived. More money for individuals ALLOWS them to indulge and that's a conscious decision. Sure, you want to enjoy things you may have never had or tasted, but overindulgence seems to just continue.
Also my opinion is that people are more concerned with status than health which is why they forego things like eating more sensibly and having a routine physical fitness program to keep them fit.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
You’ve been doing this a long time, do you think the cost and impact is too immense for people to take 4 Trillion and 1/2 the globe being over weight personally? What does it take?
Using Leo’s (sorry Leo) excuse of ‘it’s not fair’ reasoning, what if that 4 Trillion only impacted those in that demographic, and it didn’t impact those who don’t contribute to the epidemic? Would that make a difference? Since, technically speaking, it’s not fair to those who aren’t obese?
I’m probably going to throw out a lot of random scenarios to see what connects.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This is such an interesting addition to the conversation, I didn’t consider that. Prisons in a sense are like the ‘almost perfect’ control group. This makes me hopeful that earlier education on how to read servings sizes is possible since it’s simplifying the process.
I’m embarrassed to say, I didn’t understand serving sizes myself until I came here. Even if I saw nutrition on the side of the box I would think, yeah but what do I do with that information? What does it even mean? I wish I had known earlier that no, I didn’t need 2000 calories, I needed to know my TDEE and to eat that. It was such an aha moment.0 -
The S.A.D really is sad!
2 -
neanderthin wrote: »"foods" engineered to be hyperpalatable is the foundation of ultra processed foods which typically are a combination of carbohydrates, sugar, fat and salt which triggers the brains reward system which interferes with the body's ability to regulate appetite and satiety which encourages excessive eating, this isn't rocket science, it's a well documented fact and has been for decades. Ann touched on our evolutionary adaptive abilities that helped us survive that are now turning out to be our nemesis, isn't that special.
I think we all know this to be true, no argument there. The question is, what do we do about it? How do we get people to care about the impact they’re making to not just themselves but our kids, community, and society. This isn’t a personal problem, it’s an everyone problem. I agree weight gain can be a slow slippery slope and then one day you wake up and realize you’re breathing heavy when you go up the stairs. It can sneak up on you. I get it. But we need to reframe the way we think about our impact and how it’s not just about “me”. And if we don’t then personal accountability will be off the table and will eventually be controlled by someone else. Maybe that’s what it’s gonna take. I’d rather it not though.
I personally don't see a population-level change that can be made by an individual, that personal accountability and influencing your children is the only thing that can really be done. What high-level interventions do you see being effective ways to bring about global and societal change that seems to be needed? Or even at a smaller level? I suppose if you're reproductively inclined you could lobby a school board for healthier meals, but what level of intervention is theoretically possible for adults to successfully undergo to implement large-scale dietary changes?1 -
neanderthin wrote: »"foods" engineered to be hyperpalatable is the foundation of ultra processed foods which typically are a combination of carbohydrates, sugar, fat and salt which triggers the brains reward system which interferes with the body's ability to regulate appetite and satiety which encourages excessive eating, this isn't rocket science, it's a well documented fact and has been for decades. Ann touched on our evolutionary adaptive abilities that helped us survive that are now turning out to be our nemesis, isn't that special.
I think we all know this to be true, no argument there. The question is, what do we do about it? How do we get people to care about the impact they’re making to not just themselves but our kids, community, and society. This isn’t a personal problem, it’s an everyone problem. I agree weight gain can be a slow slippery slope and then one day you wake up and realize you’re breathing heavy when you go up the stairs. It can sneak up on you. I get it. But we need to reframe the way we think about our impact and how it’s not just about “me”. And if we don’t then personal accountability will be off the table and will eventually be controlled by someone else. Maybe that’s what it’s gonna take. I’d rather it not though.
I personally don't see a population-level change that can be made by an individual, that personal accountability and influencing your children is the only thing that can really be done. What high-level interventions do you see being effective ways to bring about global and societal change that seems to be needed? Or even at a smaller level? I suppose if you're reproductively inclined you could lobby a school board for healthier meals, but what level of intervention is theoretically possible for adults to successfully undergo to implement large-scale dietary changes?
I was hoping there would be some out of the box thinking for improvement I never considered, but the more I’m looking at it and seeing the responses, I have to agree with you. It doesn’t seem like change here is theoretically possible. It’s pretty depressing 🙁. There’s too many excuses, convenience, and ingrained unhealthy habits, for most people to care enough about their health. I don’t know why this surprises me so much, but it does. I’m hopeful, and still think we can accomplish great things if we put our minds to it, but I also won’t hold my breath. This community is a great help and changing lives all the time so at least we have that.1 -
neanderthin wrote: »"foods" engineered to be hyperpalatable is the foundation of ultra processed foods which typically are a combination of carbohydrates, sugar, fat and salt which triggers the brains reward system which interferes with the body's ability to regulate appetite and satiety which encourages excessive eating, this isn't rocket science, it's a well documented fact and has been for decades. Ann touched on our evolutionary adaptive abilities that helped us survive that are now turning out to be our nemesis, isn't that special.
I think we all know this to be true, no argument there. The question is, what do we do about it? How do we get people to care about the impact they’re making to not just themselves but our kids, community, and society. This isn’t a personal problem, it’s an everyone problem. I agree weight gain can be a slow slippery slope and then one day you wake up and realize you’re breathing heavy when you go up the stairs. It can sneak up on you. I get it. But we need to reframe the way we think about our impact and how it’s not just about “me”. And if we don’t then personal accountability will be off the table and will eventually be controlled by someone else. Maybe that’s what it’s gonna take. I’d rather it not though.
I personally don't see a population-level change that can be made by an individual, that personal accountability and influencing your children is the only thing that can really be done. What high-level interventions do you see being effective ways to bring about global and societal change that seems to be needed? Or even at a smaller level? I suppose if you're reproductively inclined you could lobby a school board for healthier meals, but what level of intervention is theoretically possible for adults to successfully undergo to implement large-scale dietary changes?
I was hoping there would be some out of the box thinking for improvement I never considered, but the more I’m looking at it and seeing the responses, I have to agree with you. It doesn’t seem like change here is theoretically possible. It’s pretty depressing 🙁. There’s too many excuses, convenience, and ingrained unhealthy habits, for most people to care enough about their health. I don’t know why this surprises me so much, but it does. I’m hopeful, and still think we can accomplish great things if we put our minds to it, but I also won’t hold my breath.
I think the problem is too big to even really contemplate. Four trillion anything is such a ridiculously large number, it's hard to even imagine, much less think of as a target to measure change. I may just be in a bit of a bubble, but I also don't see a whole lot of excessively large people or a lack of whatever might be deemed "healthy" foods. Most of the people I see could maybe lose 10 pounds, so nothing like debilitating obesity. Of course I have no idea what their health challenges might be otherwise in terms of CV disease, or blood pressure, or T2 diabetes, but you get what I mean.
Of course I've read the studies and seen the clinical trial ads for different programs or procedures for weight loss, so I get the scope of the problem. I think that obesity is a lot like climate change. They're both huge problems that need to be addressed, but individual impact feels very small and it often feels like shouting into the wind when no matter how much broccoli you buy, someone else is going to keep buying Ho-Ho cakes. But like-minded people seem to find each other, and then small groups get bigger, bigger groups get organized, organizers can lobby organizations and governments, and organizations and governments can foster and legislate change. It's just a long road between your own efforts and $4T.1
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