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Marriage or not?

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  • sollyn23l2
    sollyn23l2 Posts: 1,783 Member
    MsCzar wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    How long have you been married for? I would, of course, assume you've NEVER been divorced, so I won't ask that. How many kids do you have? How old? If they're adults, are they married yet?

    Together for 30+ years with differences and debates, but never once a raised voice argument. IMO the mutual respect is the strongest bond. The thought of making the other unhappy or disappointed would be the worst thing imaginable.

    I'm glad you were lucky enough to find that. And I agree, mutual respect is one of the most important things in any relationship.
  • SafariGalNYC
    SafariGalNYC Posts: 1,558 Member
    Married for 11 years. Lucky I married my best friend. I had a grand wedding but it wasn’t because I was fed some marketing about princess for a day - it was to celebrate with our family and friends.

    Been to weddings in India and Saudi Arabia that lasted for days… some is cultural others is preference.



  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,302 Member
    MsCzar wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    How long have you been married for? I would, of course, assume you've NEVER been divorced, so I won't ask that. How many kids do you have? How old? If they're adults, are they married yet?

    Together for 30+ years with differences and debates, but never once a raised voice argument. IMO the mutual respect is the strongest bond. The thought of making the other unhappy or disappointed would be the worst thing imaginable.

    that's great for you.

    I have been married for 38 years, great for me too - but I don't think that means I should decide nobody else could be in a situation where they should leave a marriage or that everybody who does so should have known better and been able to see the signs of a bad partner

    or even that neither party is a bad partner but the marriage just doesnt work out as people change over time.

    I'm not that arrogant to think just because it worked for me it should work for everyone else.
  • MsCzar
    MsCzar Posts: 1,072 Member
    edited July 29
    paperpudding wrote: »

    ... that's great for you.
    I'm not that arrogant to think just because it worked for me it should work for everyone else.

    I believe the Thread Title is Marriage or Not. If it were Skiing or Not, my answer would be very different. I don't ski. I never learned to ski and my attempts at skiing were never successful. I don't like to ski. So I would vote NOT on skiing.

    Still, if someone did answer that they enjoy skiing and find it a delightful and fulfilling pastime, it would never occur to me to think them arrogant nor assume they were somehow suggesting everyone on the entire planet take up the sport. How very silly that would be. 🤣
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,302 Member
    Yes the comparison to skiing is silly.

    If there were a thread on skiing and somebody said skiing is so easy, I can do it so it should never go wrong for anyone else - then I would find that arrogant too.

    You finding marriage delightful wasn't the issue - it was you deciding nobody else could go wrong with it.
  • AdahPotatah2024
    AdahPotatah2024 Posts: 2,432 Member
    Marriage, just like religion or skiing, isn't for everyone. I will admit I felt trapped after I married in my 20s. I was happy w/the guy for 6 or 7 years before getting married, but then when I started thinking about us being together for the rest of our lives I bolted after being married only for a few years.He was funny and sweet, but a zero in the romance department. :D

    @MsCzar I so agree with all the red flags being there in the beginning!

    However, I follow my heart (I used to do so fearlessly😅) and date those crazy guys I love, anyway. And then leave when the bad outweighs the good!
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,598 Member
    MsCzar wrote: »
    Incredibly old fashioned here. :D
    If you're going to breed, get married and stay married. And yes, I already can hear keyboards typing out "B-b-but my ex was a terrible person I am well rid of!" Hence the importance of recognizing the dif between a good mate and a poor choice long before saying "I do".

    I think I'm pretty old-fashioned about marriage, too. I do believe that if people have children, that means putting the children's needs first. That may or may not mean sticking with the other genetic parent. In some cases it might be vital to leave the marriage for the good of the children.

    I think others who are criticizing you may be missing the "If you're going to breed . . . " part of your post. I think that part is important. (NB: I didn't breed, but not exactly on purpose.)

    Another way in which I'm old-fashioned - but weird - is that I think marriage is a serious contract. That, to me, is extremely significant (before the children's needs come into it, at least). Getting married, I pledged some stuff, and so did my partner. I meant it. My word means a very great deal to me.

    But had he broken that contract in some significant way, I would have felt that I was no longer bound by it. I could still choose to stay in the partnership, but I wasn't morally obligated, at that point.

    Yes, there can be red flags, but there can also be surprises. Liars lie. I think many people under-estimate how skillful some manipulators are. (I could write a whole essay about that - not personified by my spouse, BTW - but I won't.) Manageable issues can become unmanageable ones.

    I do think that some people enter marriage with a pretty stupid rosily romantic view of marriage and their partner, and become disillusioned when life doesn't play out like a Hallmark movie. Our culture's emphasis on romantic love contributes to that. Those people are more likely to give up when the reality departs from the (dumb) vision. True partnership isn't always easy. It requires investment.

    All of that said, I don't feel a need to judge others, with the probable exception of cases where they do have children, and do things that screw over those children. If a couple marries for dumb reasons, and divorces for equally dumb reasons, it has no apparent impact on me (or significant impact on society at large, IMO).

    In that sense, I agree with you that some people are doing it wrong (for my tastes) . . . but I think it's more their problem than mine, or society's.

    For me, the real rewards of marriage came when we'd been together long enough, knew each other well enough (and both of us were people of reasonable integrity), that we could literally take each other for granted. Modern life is very volatile. My partner was a stable center, reliable amidst that dynamism. "Home" was a person, not a place. To me, that was the very great value of a good marriage, in our current world.

    It took a long time and a lot of work to get there, and I feel like a lot of couples never get there. I'm 68 and widowed now, set in my ways, and I can't really imagine myself putting in that work with someone new.

    (As an aside: I feel like a lot of couples don't even genuinely like each other all that much, TBH, but that's a whole other essay.)
  • chris_in_cal
    chris_in_cal Posts: 2,539 Member
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    I've made the decision to move overseas, and create my new life on a beach and owning and running my own beach gym. At this point all I want is to be content with what I really feel is the place I want to be and still doing what I love.
    No debate here, that's the coolest thing ever. I am wishing you all the best for success and contentedness.
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    edited August 23
    MsCzar wrote: »
    Incredibly old fashioned here. :D
    If you're going to breed, get married and stay married. And yes, I already can hear keyboards typing out "B-b-but my ex was a terrible person I am well rid of!" Hence the importance of recognizing the dif between a good mate and a poor choice long before saying "I do".
    I believe that having children and with whom to have them is possibly the most important decision people can make and far too often people don't put enough thought into it.

    MsCzar wrote: »
    paperpudding wrote: »
    If only it were that simple. I'm sure nobody married their partner thinking they would turn out a cheater or worse a domestic abuser. And no people ever change as time goes on.
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    paperpudding wrote: »
    If only it were that simple.
    I'm sure nobody married their partner thinking they would turn out a cheater or worse a domestic abuser

    And no people ever change as time goes on. :*
    Yeah that's hard. And those type of people tend to also treat their spouses more as property and not partner.

    Since this is Debate Club, I contend that barring severe head trauma, very few people on the planet undergo a 180° personality change between altar and divorce decree. Most bad choices display more red flags than Moscow on May Day from Day One.
    Early on, did that ex occasionally bend the truth for gain or to smooth life's path? Bad mouth or manipulate an ex? Exact acts of dishonesty, revenge or pique? Walk away from responsibility? Avoid, disrespect, dislike or not help their parents? Have outbursts of anger language or tantrum physicality? Shout or throw insults in anger or frustration at anyone? Road rage? Substance abuse? Whine, sulk, withhold, cajole or pout until they get their way? Have to be "right" in every instance? Did that "you belong to me" once sound endearing?

    No one is perfect, but the signs of a bad match are likely clearly visible from space and glossed over under desire's spell, youthful inexperience, the wish to change circumstance or simply be part of a couple.

    I wasn't especially inclined to have children, but even at age 20 I knew my then-husband and I would not parent well together, and am so glad I decided to not have children with him and ensured this did not happen. In the 80s and 90s, there was a LOT of pressure to have children, and I'm glad I resisted.

    In my 30's, I moved to be with a man, ignoring all the red flags that were clearly there. However, I didn't get married or financially entangled with him, so when I was finally ready to leave, there were no barriers other than his manipulation. (It did take me five tries to leave him. I'm glad I only had to deal with emotional barriers, as that was hard enough.)

    I've been with someone for almost 12 years now. I'm in my 50s and he in his 60s. This would be a second marriage for both of us, and we feel no particular need to do it. We have wills, health care proxies, and have each other listed as beneficiary in case of death on our bank accounts. (We don't have joint accounts.)

    Another thing marriage takes care of in the event of divorce is joint property like a house. I had a housemate in Florida who was never able to get her half of the house when she broke up with her partner, to whom she was not married, when he was sentenced to jail for participating in a South Florida pill mill. She tried for @ 10 years and he was able to string it out until she died. However, upon her death, her son was able to get her share of the house in four months. Turned out that as her heir, he had a legal protection that she as a partner did not.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 49,024 Member
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    MsCzar wrote: »
    Incredibly old fashioned here. :D
    If you're going to breed, get married and stay married. And yes, I already can hear keyboards typing out "B-b-but my ex was a terrible person I am well rid of!" Hence the importance of recognizing the dif between a good mate and a poor choice long before saying "I do".
    I believe that having children and with whom to have them is possibly the most important decision people can make and far too often people don't put enough thought into it.

    MsCzar wrote: »
    paperpudding wrote: »
    If only it were that simple. I'm sure nobody married their partner thinking they would turn out a cheater or worse a domestic abuser. And no people ever change as time goes on.
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    paperpudding wrote: »
    If only it were that simple.
    I'm sure nobody married their partner thinking they would turn out a cheater or worse a domestic abuser

    And no people ever change as time goes on. :*
    Yeah that's hard. And those type of people tend to also treat their spouses more as property and not partner.

    Since this is Debate Club, I contend that barring severe head trauma, very few people on the planet undergo a 180° personality change between altar and divorce decree. Most bad choices display more red flags than Moscow on May Day from Day One.
    Early on, did that ex occasionally bend the truth for gain or to smooth life's path? Bad mouth or manipulate an ex? Exact acts of dishonesty, revenge or pique? Walk away from responsibility? Avoid, disrespect, dislike or not help their parents? Have outbursts of anger language or tantrum physicality? Shout or throw insults in anger or frustration at anyone? Road rage? Substance abuse? Whine, sulk, withhold, cajole or pout until they get their way? Have to be "right" in every instance? Did that "you belong to me" once sound endearing?

    No one is perfect, but the signs of a bad match are likely clearly visible from space and glossed over under desire's spell, youthful inexperience, the wish to change circumstance or simply be part of a couple.

    I wasn't especially inclined to have children, but even at age 20 I knew my then-husband and I would not parent well together, and am so glad I decided to not have children with him and ensured this did not happen. In the 80s and 90s, there was a LOT of pressure to have children, and I'm glad I resisted.

    In my 30's, I moved to be with a man, ignoring all the red flags that were clearly there. However, I didn't get married or financially entangled with him, so when I was finally ready to leave, there were no barriers other than his manipulation. (It did take me five tries to leave him. I'm glad I only had to deal with emotional barriers, as that was hard enough.)

    I've been with someone for almost 12 years now. I'm in my 50s and he in his 60s. This would be a second marriage for both of us, and we feel no particular need to do it. We have wills, health care proxies, and have each other listed as beneficiary in case of death on our bank accounts. (We don't have joint accounts.)

    Another thing marriage takes care of in the event of divorce is joint property like a house. I had a housemate in Florida who was never able to get her half of the house when she broke up with her partner, to whom she was not married, when he was sentenced to jail for participating in a South Florida pill mill. She tried for @ 10 years and he was able to string it out until she died. However, upon her death, her son was able to get her share of the house in four months. Turned out that as her heir, he had a legal protection that she as a partner did not.
    In some states, I believe after a certain amount of years there's common law marriage laws that helps with that. But the best thing anyone can do is to get living wills and trusts well before the person dies to protect themselves even if they aren't married to the person.

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  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,302 Member
    Arguably it is the demise of extended family living in western societies that has led to more people being alone in older life.
    Family who would help, be there etc in multi generational living.

    Of course living alone isnt a bad thing for everyone and there are also retirement villages and suchlike which suit some people - the compromise between living alone and having community around you..

    I dont think wanting someone to help you and be there when you are older is a basis for marriage though
  • sollyn23l2
    sollyn23l2 Posts: 1,783 Member
    paperpudding wrote: »
    Arguably it is the demise of extended family living in western societies that has led to more people being alone in older life.
    Family who would help, be there etc in multi generational living.

    Of course living alone isnt a bad thing for everyone and there are also retirement villages and suchlike which suit some people - the compromise between living alone and having community around you..

    I dont think wanting someone to help you and be there when you are older is a basis for marriage though

    Absolutely agree. I think this is one of the biggest issues.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 49,024 Member
    Just a random fact: The highest cases of STD lies amongst retirement commmunities. Lol, with viagra and no way to get pregnant, I can see why. :D

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  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,598 Member
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    Just a random fact: The highest cases of STD lies amongst retirement commmunities. Lol, with viagra and no way to get pregnant, I can see why. :D

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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    I think there can be a demographic component to that, too.

    The age groups now in retirement communities (my age peers, loosely) were teens and young adults during which the HIV thread didn't exist, the HPV impact on gynecological cancer was unknown, the 1960s "free love" ethic was in play, birth control pills were becoming widely available including to unmarried young people, and more.

    I don't know what the statistics say, and I wouldn't trust statistics from that time anyway about young people's sexual behavior (IMO many would lie because their authority figures still imposed stigma). I think those were pretty sexually active times for people young then, retirement age now.

    For youth of the time in the middle, there were more fears, but not much in the way of treatments (for HPV, HIV). Now there are preventatives and treatments to a greater extent, and retirees are playing the odds with a shorter presumed future at risk anyway. On top of that, many of my demographic are no longer in stable monogamous relationships.

    The lack of pregnancy risk is part of the picture, but I think there's some additional subculture/demographic baggage that maybe has an effect as well.
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,302 Member
    I have read also that the highest rising incidence of STD';s is in older people (not the highest actual incidence but the highest rise in incidence per age group)

    A couple of reasons I heard floated for this - the safe sex message is targeted too much at younger people and younger people have more opportunity to discuss with Dr's - or Dr's have more opportunity to discuss with them - eg when patient comes for birth control or pap smears or similar,the things older people don't come for, easy to bring conversation around to safe sex.

    Possibly older people find buying condoms more embarrassing too - although with them available in supermarkets and self service cash registers, this isnt like the old days of whispering to pharmacist and scurrying out with brown paper bag.

  • xrj22
    xrj22 Posts: 218 Member
    I think the act of getting married, and making a commitment to the other person is a good thing. It encourages people to be their best selves. If there are children involved, anything that a couple or society can do to increase stability is good. If it is just two people who dont plan to have children, it is less important. Still, I think it is a great thing to be committed to another person, and great when people want to announce and celebrate this kind of relationship with a ceremony.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 49,024 Member
    xrj22 wrote: »
    I think the act of getting married, and making a commitment to the other person is a good thing. It encourages people to be their best selves. If there are children involved, anything that a couple or society can do to increase stability is good. If it is just two people who dont plan to have children, it is less important. Still, I think it is a great thing to be committed to another person, and great when people want to announce and celebrate this kind of relationship with a ceremony.
    I know a few people with kids who are still together and not legally married. I DON'T believe that getting married encourages people to be their best selves as stats show that regardless if married or not 70% of people in the US are either overweight or obese.
    You can be your best self whether your married or not dependent on your desire. Two people can be totally committed to each other without a marriage license or ceremony. If marriage was the stability people needed to stay committed, then there shouldn't be a 50% divorce rate.


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  • sollyn23l2
    sollyn23l2 Posts: 1,783 Member
    edited September 15
    xrj22 wrote: »
    I think the act of getting married, and making a commitment to the other person is a good thing. It encourages people to be their best selves. If there are children involved, anything that a couple or society can do to increase stability is good. If it is just two people who dont plan to have children, it is less important. Still, I think it is a great thing to be committed to another person, and great when people want to announce and celebrate this kind of relationship with a ceremony.

    I would actually argue that marriage causes people to become their worst self. They lose the anxiety that their significant other will leave, and then they let their freak flag fly. For example, it's common for abusive individuals to rush you into into marriage, because then they can begin truly abusing you without the fear of you easily walking away. Also, as an above poster stated, most people gain significant weight after getting married, ad they stop worrying about their significant other staying attracted to them. After all, they have a ring, so they're set.
  • AdahPotatah2024
    AdahPotatah2024 Posts: 2,432 Member
    edited September 17
    I diagree that marriage causes people to become their worst self. If this is happening, I really think that person married the wrong person! A lot is just luck, I think. Those who have found someone that they love and* can live with might have a skewed view that it's that way for most, while others (such as myself) might be a bit skewed toward being single just because they've not experienced a relationship with someone completely compatible.
  • AdahPotatah2024
    AdahPotatah2024 Posts: 2,432 Member
    edited September 17
    And I say luck because a lot of people marry before the incompatibilities appear. Take this last guy I dated..the first year was a Hallmark romance. He jokingly proposed a few times, and thankfully I didn't get carried away. The second year I discovered some bizarre lies, a bit of a hoarding tendency, and his eating of chicken wings didn't live up to my expectations.. The last straw was when he felt the need to intently stare at a cute lady in a vintage dress while shopping at Walmart. I was done! I just think how lucky for both of us that we weren't already married by then.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 49,024 Member
    AdahPotatah2024 wrote: »
    I diagree that marriage causes people to become their worst self. If this is happening, I really think the person married the wrong person! A lot is just luck, I think. Those who have found someone that they love and* can live with might have a skewed view that it's that way for most, while others (such as myself) might be a bit skewed toward being single just because they've not experienced a relationship with someone completely compatible.
    Are all marriages that way? Objectively no. And while some people really are in a happy committed marriage, the other half feel stuck because they are involved not only due to a license but financially and probably stability wise as well. If two people were financially stable on their own and weren't happy in their marriage, then divorce is the option which 50% of couples are doing. Is it luck? or is it the "dream" that one needs to achieve to be considered to be happiest?
    Personally think if two people really wanted to be together but weren't bound by a contract, they'd actually have to work HARDER to stay together because there's really nothing holding them from moving on (unless maybe kids are involved) or there's assets to split.
    Is it luck? Maybe, or could be just lack of options for that person. Who knows.

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  • HoneyBadger302
    HoneyBadger302 Posts: 2,084 Member
    Personally, you do you.
    I have no intention of marrying again, and honestly wasn't ready the first time, but (what has proven to be extremely toxic and abusive) parenting basically forced me to either marry or stay under their control. We were "in love" and he wasn't a bad person, I just didn't feel ready - I would have much rather lived together while finishing college and then reassess the whole marriage thing. As I didn't feel that was an option (I've of course since realized the level of manipulation and that I could have broken away earlier, it just would have been very complicated), I married.
    As I learned who I was as a person apart from my toxic family (which he did help push me to un-enmesh myself from them, for which I am eternally grateful), it eventually came to light that we were just on different trajectories with our lives and ended up divorcing.
    The divorce was a massive financial hit for me, because I didn't have the money to have a lawyer look over the paperwork and by that point just wanted it over, but is what it is at this point. Long time in the rearview.
    At this point in my life, I don't even want to live with someone else again. I want the freedom to go live my life - move, travel, do my thing, spend my money how I want - and I'm pretty used to being independent by this point, so it's a preference for me. I don't mind dating, and have a boyfriend where our arrangement works for the two of us for now, so that's nice, but I'm not interested in more, and he's good with just dating and enjoying each other's company in a non-traditional/only ever dating relationship.
    I think a lot of people marry way younger than they should. And many do it while still in the throws of "love" when the rose colored glasses are still being worn, and women in many countries are no longer obligated to stick around for being abused, mistreated, and walked all over and are gaining a voice, so it's only natural that the institution of marriage will evolve with those changes as well.
  • AdahPotatah2024
    AdahPotatah2024 Posts: 2,432 Member
    edited September 18
    "I think a lot of people marry way younger than they should. And many do it while still in the throws of "love" when the rose colored glasses are still being worn..."
    Agree..and even if not, it's not guaranteed that their/your values and priorities won't change at some point in a way that completely clashes with one another. So a lot of it is luck, in my opinion!
  • AdahPotatah2024
    AdahPotatah2024 Posts: 2,432 Member
    I 🩷 this quote " Love does not consist in gazing at each other (one perfect sunrise gazing at another!) but in looking outward together in the same direction."

    Anne Morrow Lindbergh, Gift from the Sea
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 49,024 Member
    I also believe that how you're raised brings marriage as the goal for everyone. In my culture, being married is the goal for many along with having kids. It's almost practically "forced" on you by parents and relatives that many times some get married because they feel the pressure. That's basically how my life went. I got a beautiful daughter out of it and my ex and I financially built a good life together, but the "in love" phase faded as the years went on and we just operated on doing what we needed to do to raise her and make sure that we stayed stable. When she graduated and became an adult out of highschool, is when we pretty much told her we were going to split, although we knew it 7 years prior.
    And also in my culture, it's kind of embarrassing to divorce because it kinda shows that you weren't strong enough to make it last. But my ex and I knew that just trying to work it out wasn't going to make us stay in love with each other. We care for each other to the point that we'd never abandon each other if either needed help or support, but we're just not "in love" with each other to be intimate or romantic.
    I know that once I move out, we'll always stay in touch to a point and if anything befell either of us, we'd be there for each other, but as for love and romance, we're both ready to move on with someone else.

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