Have You Tried an Anti-Inflammatory Meal Plan? Has It Helped?

springlering62
springlering62 Posts: 8,679 Member
edited December 5 in Food and Nutrition
Have any of you tried an anti-inflammatory diet plan? Not a weight loss diet, but tailoring your diet to reduce inflammation and joint pain?

Did it work? What did you do? When did you see results? Has it helped on an on-going basis?

I’m planning on consulting with my hospital affiliated gym’s RD when she returns. She’s still on vacation. My weight loss consults with her predecessor were worth their weight in gold.

I’m also put my trainer on alert to discuss helping me cut back my workout schedule, which is self-inflicted (she’s advised against it since we first started) and admittedly ridiculous.

I don’t expect it to all disappear, but feeling like I have some modicum of control will be pretty life-changing, just as weight loss was.

My joint pain is through the roof lately, and I’m hearing myself echoing my mom’s constant complaints. I have spent the last few years convincing myself, I am not my mom, so stepping back and listening to my own self bellyache is a shock.
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Replies

  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,620 Member
    edited December 5
    I didn't do a formal anti-inflammatory diet, but do feel like my systemic inflammation has been reduced with changes in eating and other habits. I can't think of any other way to fully explain the reduction in certain symptoms, including reduced joint pain. (I haven't been tested for CRP or the like, so I can't prove it. Of course weight loss helped joint pain be less severe/frequent, but I don't think it's the whole story. Unlike you, I didn't get materially fitter/stronger alongside weight loss, nor increase exercise load significantly, either.)

    Do you have a medically diagnosed reason for the ramped up joint pain? For sure, over-exercise can contribute to that directly and physically. But there are other potential issues, of which systemic inflammation is only one.

    Some possibilities are purely physical, of course. But if I can be brutally honest, from your other posts here I feel like you're pretty hard on yourself psychologically, and quite driven. Those are not inherently overall bad things, but things which IMU can contribute to systemic inflammation, too, loosely speaking through the stress pathways (via hormones, cytokine production, etc.).

    I'd suggesting including your doctor in the picture, if you haven't already done so, to rule out relevant physical conditions. In parallel, no harm, and possible help, in consulting the RD and working to move your eating in a less pro-inflammatory direction, if possible.

    Best wishes for sorting this out and finding improvement!
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,679 Member
    @xbowhunter can you be more specific about “lower” carbs and sugars?

    @AnnPT77 going through a period of severe joint pain and swelling. Last time it was diagnosed as Rheumatic Fever. This time I’m 100% sure it’s something I picked up traveling, and it’s also an autoimmune issue.

    I’ve been to the doc, urgent care, the ER, had the full gamut of blood, Covid, flu, and strep tests, and an MRI of swollen leg to make sure no clots. Was tested for Lupus years ago during an episode.

    The last few times I laid down, wallowed in self pity, cried and whined, let the weight pile on. I knew there’d be a repeat episode. That’s one of the reasons I took the weight loss on, and why I’m so rabidly determined to be active. I never want to be on a walker or have my husband help me on and off a toilet-ladder again.

    If diet changes, or cutting back/changing activity will help, I’m game. Meds? This time, I’m game.

    One of my kids also has similar autoimmune issues and is experiencing even worse joint pain, I’m so anxious to find a solution, or anything to help. I would happily be a guinea pig to help.

    And even while typing this, the billing dept for the ER just texted a large bill. 😖

    TLDR: Pls continue anti inflammatory suggestions, you excellent people. 😘
  • claireychn074
    claireychn074 Posts: 1,656 Member
    Ohhh I just typed a long detailed reply on my phone then lost it 😦 in a nutshell, I use my EMS to reduce swelling, increase blood flow and reduce pain. I love it, worth every penny but don’t know if it will work on everyone.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,620 Member
    Don't whomp me over the head for the pseudoscience, but have you tried acupuncture? Serious massage therapy? Osteopathic manipulation?

    Those won't cure auto-immune issues, but all have helped me with joint pain. Actually, I think good massage therapy and osteopathic medicine aren't very vulnerable to pseudoscience claims.

    Acupuncture is a little more suspect IMO, and anecdotally it seems like practitioners vary a great deal. I was a huge skeptic, but our (believe it or not, kids) out-of-town senior kung fu teacher came here to do a martial arts workshop, stayed with us, and wanted to do acupuncture (and moxibustion) on me to see if it could help my quite constant knee pain and routine swelling.

    I had serious doubt that it would help, but was confident it wouldn't injure me (clean with sterile needles, all that jazz). One session only. Huge pain reduction right away - though not total elimination - that lasted for months/years, and the knees that had been so swollen I couldn't kneel on them much of the time haven't swollen again ever, from that day to this. (That was Fall 1997ish maybe, or earlier?) I still kinda can't believe it, but that's how it played out, no matter why it played out that way. If placebo effect, I'll take it, absolutely. Bizarre.

    Turns out that in the martial arts lineages he was trained in in Taiwan, they think that if you're going to learn how to break people, you should also learn how to fix them, thus he practiced acupuncture, acupressure, and related modalities. Not sure whether he was licensed anywhere in any of it. Don't care about that, either.

    Not saying any of those things will work for you, but they've all helped me reduce or even eliminate joint pain. I don't think any have great injury risk (assuming cleanliness/sterility with the acupuncture one), so might be worth trying, if you haven't.

    People think osteopathic manipulation is like chiropractic, but IME it's not. It's gentle, and mysteriously helpful. I go to a university clinic here that's associated with a College of Osteopathy in the university. These are full medical doctors (D.O.s, analogous to M.D.s), with one sub-specialty being musculoskeletal issues. My primary care doc and my new neurosurgeon are both D.O.s now, too, just different specialties (obviously ;) ). The ones that specialize in musculoskeletal issues don't pretend to be experts in all things health and diet, and extra medical specialties besides, in the way that IME the skeezy fringe of chiropractors do.
  • xbowhunter
    xbowhunter Posts: 1,309 Member
    springlering62 wrote: »
    @xbowhunter can you be more specific about “lower” carbs and sugars?

    @AnnPT77 going through a period of severe joint pain and swelling. Last time it was diagnosed as Rheumatic Fever. This time I’m 100% sure it’s something I picked up traveling, and it’s also an autoimmune issue.

    I’ve been to the doc, urgent care, the ER, had the full gamut of blood, Covid, flu, and strep tests, and an MRI of swollen leg to make sure no clots. Was tested for Lupus years ago during an episode.

    The last few times I laid down, wallowed in self pity, cried and whined, let the weight pile on. I knew there’d be a repeat episode. That’s one of the reasons I took the weight loss on, and why I’m so rabidly determined to be active. I never want to be on a walker or have my husband help me on and off a toilet-ladder again.

    If diet changes, or cutting back/changing activity will help, I’m game. Meds? This time, I’m game.

    One of my kids also has similar autoimmune issues and is experiencing even worse joint pain, I’m so anxious to find a solution, or anything to help. I would happily be a guinea pig to help.

    And even while typing this, the billing dept for the ER just texted a large bill. 😖

    TLDR: Pls continue anti inflammatory suggestions, you excellent people. 😘

    yep

    I just reduced my sugar from sweets and reduced simple carbs like chips.

    Pretty simple for me to reduce them.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,265 Member
    edited December 6
    Can I ask a few questions first. I know a little about your journey @springlering62 and was wondering if joint pain was a problem before you lost weight? Also, you said you had blood work done recently and wondering what your triglyceride numbers are and if you know what your C-reactive protein level is? What percentage of your diet are carbohydrates and what type is prominent in your diet now. Also have you changed anything in your diet over this time period, even the smallest changes can have an effect, so it's why I'm asking.

    I was wondering considering your complaint was inflammation did your Dr's do a enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) or multiplex immunoassays test which can detect and quantify various cytokines which are extremely pro inflammatory and show up constantly, so why I'm asking and these again are related to the inflammatory nature of sugars in general.

    Of course inflammation has a litany of confounders and engaging in weight training especially on an aggressive level contributes to inflammation but I'm going to discount that as a recent cause of your concerns simply because that is not the type of inflammation that becomes chronic and actually helps mitigate the actual type of inflammation that is more associated with joint pain, yeah, basically exercise of any kind reduces chronic inflammation, and I can elaborate if you want me to. :)
  • lisakatz2
    lisakatz2 Posts: 573 Member
    This is skin not joints (but I still consider it inflammation); my skin cleared up and glowed up after radically reducing sugar and carbs from my diet. I used to eat refined carbs and lots of sugar every day (when I was 200 pounds) now my eating habits have changed, and I feel a lot better for it.
  • avatiach
    avatiach Posts: 307 Member
    edited December 6
    For me, joint pain flares up when I eat wheat. Which I am allergic to. If you suspect allergies that is a path.
    My son is being investigated for celiac and that is an auto immune disorder that in some people causes joint pain.

    I guess what I am saying is that a particular allergy may worsen inflammation. If you are an allergic person… are you avoiding your allergens?
    Your inflammatory foods may be a bit different from mine. Maybe for me it’s wheat and for you it is dairy.

    I have had help from massage and PT because if something hurts (say your right knee) then you might start walking differently and then that causes other pain. Yoga and Pilates have also helped a lot! And maybe I will try acupuncture, which has helped me with other issues!
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,679 Member
    @claireychn074 what is an EMS?

    @AnnPT77 I totally understand. I’ve started seeing a massage therapist who specializes in neuromuscular massage. The first time I went to her, I was fuming over the awful massage I’d just had…..until by the time I reached the car, the painful “yoga butt” I’ve fought for years released, just like that 🫰🏻. It’s never come back.

    I tried acupuncture about twelve years ago, but wasn’t impressed. She operated out of a chiro office and was very invested in selling expensive pills.

    @hikerchick93 thanks for sharing. We sound very similar in many regards. I was reading something this morning about processed meats- as I was eating my morning bacon and pre-logging my prosciutto sandwich for Saturday.

    @lisakatz2 I started out above 225, and wouldn’t even want to venture a guess at how much sugar I was eating per day. Over a pound, probably. Unfortunately, maybe I’m too old for a glow up, but the thought entertains me. I’d be happy with a de-wrinkle. Seriously, I think any glow up probably comes from the joy of simply being smaller and able to move at will. I’m sure a couple of my yoga instructors probably think I’m usually three sheets to the wind because that joy will hit me and then I smile like a buffoon most the class.

    @avatiach no known allergies

    @neanderthin ive got to go back and look at all the blood test results. I checked to make sure everything was within normal ranges, and it was. Not having a medical background, I don’t know the names of the tests.

    I’ve had cyclical joint pain and swelling since high school. It averaged every seven years, with no diagnosis’s (”… but maybe these steroids will help”) which is why the last time Rheumatic Fever came up, since that’s a tendency of the few people who get repeat bouts. It was always preceded by a fiery sore throat. I did the seven years of preventative penicillin injections, which ended right before the pandemic. I will say, in retrospect those seven years were amazingly pain free, but I had chalked that up to beginning weight loss in late 2018.

    No recent diet changes, other than travel foods in Sept and October. I think it was the awful travelers diarrhea and subsequent flu/strep symptoms following Uzbekistan that triggered the current bout. But once again, no strep detected.

    I take that back. I have been eating plain popcorn with butter or margarine mixed with a tbsp or so of low sodium soy sauce a lot lately. And I’ve also been eating a lot of Taylor Farms prepared Apple Walnut salads.

    I’ve got a list of foods I keep in rotation for dinners but breakfast, lunches and snacks are from a pretty narrow field.

    I’ve got an appointment with the dietician for mid January (she’s already booked that far in advance) to discuss anti-inflammatory eating and have her review my food diary. I’m worried about the bacon, and the rather heavy reliance (seems like to me) on sugar free products.

    I wrote a list of everything I do daily and went over it this morning with my trainer, who scratched out a bunch of workouts and told me to stay honest and stick to it.

    🤷🏻‍♀️


  • claireychn074
    claireychn074 Posts: 1,656 Member
    edited December 7
    mtczu8g493mh.jpeg
    Oops sorry @springlering62, electrical muscle stimulation device. It includes TENS machines but the frequency I use is to increase veinous blood flow rather than pain relief. (I know some orthopaedic surgeons and they use it to help reduce swelling after knee and hip surgeries).
    I use it on this setting: 300us pulse width, 40Hz 0.5 second burst then 2 seconds rest, then repeats. I use it for 30 mins, it contracts the muscle and significantly increases blood flow. Ill try and take a picture of the electrode placements to attach.
  • claireychn074
    claireychn074 Posts: 1,656 Member
    I also use it on my quads, by rotating those two locations I have almost removed my knee pain and the swelling is now occasional rather than most days.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,986 Member
    I have no idea what that might be, and asked an AI

    https://www.perplexity.ai/search/new?q=pending&newFrontendContextUUID=c49c1866-202a-43e7-a8b2-47545819c6bf

    So basically rather Mediterranean. I don't know if this lines up with what Americans consider a Mediterranean diet looks like to be honest. I eat naturally like this. That I don't have any joint and similar problems is of course no evidence that it works. I hope you find answers.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,265 Member
    edited December 7
    The reason I asked these questions is because certain arthritic conditions like Rheumatoid Arthritis, Psoriatic Arthritis which is mostly skin disorders of which I had both are caused mostly by systematic chronic inflammation that is generally associated with a diet high in sugar and a lot of refined carbs and the foods associated with UPF.

    My health journey that included IR and a lot of joint pain and psoriasis along with IBS type symptoms and a few more problems was reversed totally after mucking around with different diet when I basically went very low carb and eventually keto and the science bears this out quite profoundly, so it worked for me. This may not work for you simply because there's to many confounders but thought I'd mention it. Most people can't even phantom changing their diet to accommodate that kind of diet and I know how much you like your sugary treats with the amount of sugar free sweeteners you use so I suspect your consuming a fairly high carb diet, but thought I'd mention it.

    I follow a few people that talk about the carnivore diet and showcase people that talk about their journey that eventually lead them to the carnivore diet, and I've watched probably over 100 and the two things that are talked about the most is the brain clarity and energy levels and the relief from joint pain, alonmg with reversal of diabetes and IR along with reversing fatty liver, PCOS, etc. and of course weight loss which was not the focus of the carnivore diet and was thought as a nice bonus. These people were from around the world with some pretty dire situations, which I found interesting, especially considering my joint pain disappeared within a month and has never come back and the carnivore diet is basically a keto diet on steroids,, just thought that was interesting.
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,679 Member
    Thanks for the suggestions.

    I just got my last test results in. No strep (had them check both A and B, or whatever), no autoimmune or inflammation indicators.

    I don’t know what’s considered high carb. This 7- day is pretty typical for me.

    6a8mjehnwcc0.png

    Im going to back off so much exercise, and go back to some basics like hot epsom baths, and hot pad on sore joints, til I can get more info on food versus inflammation.

    @neanderthin you've talked about this in the past and I’ve read with interest. Any basic reading you can point me to? I’m not quite sure what it is. I have a mental image of meat meat meat and more meat, followed by a turkey leg for dessert.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,265 Member
    edited December 10
    springlering62 wrote: »
    Thanks for the suggestions.

    I just got my last test results in. No strep (had them check both A and B, or whatever), no autoimmune or inflammation indicators.

    I don’t know what’s considered high carb. This 7- day is pretty typical for me.

    6a8mjehnwcc0.png

    Im going to back off so much exercise, and go back to some basics like hot epsom baths, and hot pad on sore joints, til I can get more info on food versus inflammation.

    @neanderthin you've talked about this in the past and I’ve read with interest. Any basic reading you can point me to? I’m not quite sure what it is. I have a mental image of meat meat meat and more meat, followed by a turkey leg for dessert.

    That's pretty funny, but yeah that's what most people believe. Here's a basic idea of what ketogenic diet actually comprises of.
    • Fatty cuts of meat, poultry, fish
    • Eggs
    • High-fat nuts, seeds, and nut butters (e.g. macadamia nuts, pili nuts/almonds, hemp seeds)
    • Low-carbohydrate fibrous vegetables (e.g. leafy greens, lettuces, broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, Brussel sprouts, celery, zucchini, cucumber, mushrooms)
    • Quality oils and fats (e.g. avocado oil, coconut oil, extra-virgin olive oil, grass-fed butter or ghee, lard, tallow, MCT oil)
    • Low-sugar fruits (e.g. olives, avocados, berries, coconut)
    • Full-fat dairy products (cheese, heavy cream, full fat yogurt, etc.)
    • Non-glycemic sweeteners (stevia, allulose, monk fruit, erythritol, xylitol)

    And a list what should be avoided.
    • Legumes
    • Grains (e.g. whole-grains, rice, oatmeal, flours, etc.)
    • Sugary treats (cookies, cakes, pastries, breakfast cereals, etc.)
    • Sugar/sweeteners (e.g. refined sugar, honey, maple syrup, coconut sugar, agave)
    • Sodas, juices, any sugar-sweetened beverage
    • High-sugar fruits
    • Starchy vegetables (e.g. potatoes, beets, carrots, yams)

    That's the basic foodscape of the ketogenic diet, but again this is not etched in stone as it pertains to a specific individual. I'm not always @ 20g's of carbs to maintain ketosis and there what's called a "targeted ketogenic diet" which I use all the time. Here's the definition I took from a site:

    A Targeted Ketogenic Diet (TKD) is a variation of the standard ketogenic diet (SKD) designed to help athletes and those engaging in high-intensity workouts maintain their performance while staying in ketosis. Here's how it works:

    • Carb Timing: Unlike the SKD, where carbs are kept low throughout the day, TKD involves consuming a small amount of fast-absorbing carbs before, during, or after workouts. This helps fuel the exercise session and replenish glycogen stores1.
    • Macronutrient Ratio: The macronutrient breakdown is similar to the SKD: around 10% of calories from carbohydrates, 60% from fat, and 30% from protein.
    • Exercise Focus: TKD is particularly beneficial for those engaging in high-intensity exercises like HIIT, CrossFit, or long-distance running.


    The odds that someone can just switch to this type of diet is extremely low without the journey that actually brings people to the point of giving up and who are pretty much in total despair to actually try to reduce their carbs this much because without that kind of skin in the game, why would someone put themselves through that, lets face it pasta, bread, pizza and sugary desserts, which is a huge problem for me, is not easily given up. But for the people that did, which actually took me well over a year before I totally committed for any length of time, which I told myself 60 days, otherwise I probably would have failed even more so, so just getting that out there. And believe it or not losing weight was far down the list of the reasons why people try this diet which makes no sense if you happen to get most of your info through most of the legacy media.


    Anyway, it's difficult to be specific about one particular site, simply because the research is about the breath of investigation to instill a more informed and balanced opinion within yourself, it helps to identify implicit bias which is one of the biggest downfalls for any serious investigation. Saying that I leave dietdoctor.com it's the #1 low carb website in the world and this page is pretty easy reading. Any questions let me know.

    https://dietdoctor.com/





  • SafariGalNYC
    SafariGalNYC Posts: 1,582 Member
    edited December 10
    Yes, I’ve been on an anti inflammation diet for over a year and it has been the best I have felt.

    Arthritis does run in my family/ so I’m trying to prevent, my blood work came back with a higher CRP and my doctor suspected low grade inflammation - we ruled out infection.

    Inflammation can be caused by many things but in my case the doctors deduced it was stress, sleep, and possibly diet.

    @springlering62 - per my Dr -
    There is also sub clinical inflammation that can be possibly reduced through diet. It takes some trying out to see what works for you.

    So- per doctor and allergist I did an elimination diet to see if I could have any sensitivities that tests couldn’t pick up..

    I also cut out all processed food, and increased my greens (leafy green juice every morning) and omega 3s. I limit saturated fat, sugar, caffeine and wine… I stay low glycemic, routinely my carbs are under 50 net carbs per day — my CRP went down by 70% . Turns out I’m sensitive to gluten. (Not allergic to it though)

    I sleep better and have a lot more energy. I used to have some back pain that has resolved itself.. in my case adhering to an anti inflammation diet has helped immensely.

    @AnnPT77 - I also do acupuncture 1x per week for blood flow. I only started it after a trip to China where I tried it and slept so well afterwards.. I found a Traditional Chinese medical practitioner back in NY and I’ve found an East meets West approach has suited me best.

    also check out enzymes for joint pain (they are also anti inflammatory - I like Wobenzym N / made in Germany)

    There are also anti inflammatory foods I incorporate such as ginger, turmeric, etc .. herbs 🌿 (but that’s a much longer post!!!)
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,679 Member
    Very helpful, but yeah, huge commitment.

    I’d reached the end of my rope when i committed to weight loss. I’m not sure I have it in me for a second time. ( i appreciate @neanderthin’s honesty. )

    Cutting from several hundred grams carbs to 40? That’s some real determination there.

    Reading this, I feel like someone new to MFP, with the “where do I even start”, cue throwing up of hands and running in circles.

    I think an elimination plan might be a starting point.
  • Lietchi
    Lietchi Posts: 6,885 Member
    Well, I certainly don't envy your situation, I'm also a high carb kinda gal and just attempting it sounds like a miserable idea. But then again, being miserable from the pain is no fun either 😔
    If I were you, I might try the elimination diet first to see if certain foods are triggers? And if that doesn't yield (enough) results, try lowering carbs gradually?
  • SafariGalNYC
    SafariGalNYC Posts: 1,582 Member
    @springlering62 - I can see how it would feel daunting. What about an elimination challenge on the boards so you feel like you have a team?

    I found in elimination diet - phase 1 most of
    My carbs were from vegetables as it typically calls for removing grains and legumes. But, after the first few days the craving went away.

    The good news is - I found creative ways to replace the foods I was used to eating.. strangely I found a lot more nutrient dense foods.

    I like @Lietchi s idea- it may be helpful to lower carbs as a last resort after an elimination diet.
  • Corina1143
    Corina1143 Posts: 3,833 Member
    I don't have anything close to what you've described and never went on a "anti-inflammatory" diet.
    I was diagnosed with both rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis about 25 years ago. Actually felt pain from arthritis one time in my life--about a month ago. But I have fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue. I was like neanderthin describes. Considering that there might be only one way left to stop the pain.
    I found a Doctor who had fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue when he was in med school. He almost dropped out, but listened, learned, and dug his way out. He still listens, repeats what works for others as a suggestion to try. He doesn't advocate "anti-inflammatory" or "keto", but many of his suggestions are similar.
    The one thing I see he advocates that is very unlike your normal diet is to go as near no sugar, no non-sugar sweeteners as YOU possibly can. Then eat a little less sugar. It works for me--most of the time. The less sugar I eat, the better I feel. The better I feel, the less I want sugar bursting my happy bubble. It doesn't always work, but mostly it does. I still eat fruit, sweet potatoes, etc.
    I eat lower and lower carb through the years. Not because I'm aiming at keto. I'm definitely not. But if I live long enough, I may end up there.
    I hope you find some relief.
    Oh, and you thought weight loss was slow. Patience.
  • nossmf
    nossmf Posts: 12,073 Member
    I haven't tried altering my diet for my knee pain, but I do take OTC omega pills (3-6-9? 3-6-12?). Tried glucosamine in the past, but it stopped working after a few months, where the omega pills have continued.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,620 Member
    @springlering62, have you talked with your registered dietitian yet? That's a really good idea, and I know you've found that kind of conversation very beneficial in the past. That should give you some personalized advice from a well-credentialed person who's looking at your actual food choices (beyond macronutrients), and can advise you about how to approach an elimination diet in a well-constructed way.

    Here, as you know, you're just talking with other regular MFP users, and AFAIK none of us have relevant degrees or certifications in nutrition. Some of us have "done our own research" . . . that isn't really research, but is maybe reading in depth in places we found information, sources of which may or may not have been biased in some way, and have certainly been considered in ways that might reflect our own confirmation bias; and to that we've added our n=1 personal experience. That's just human, and it's better than just believing marketing and the general blogosphere, but it has limitations.

    I don't want to start a food-religion fight here, but I'd say this: If you read around a bit from fairly well-respected mainstream sources, I think you'll find that some encourage including whole grains, legumes, and starchy vegetables as part of an anti-inflammatory diet (along with a range of other foods, of course).

    There are those who feel that the mainstream has been unduly influenced by the farm lobby, though I admit I'm curious about whether Big Grain, Big Meat, Big Dairy or Big Veggie actually might have the most effective lobbyists, if that truly is a factor. Am I saying the mainstream experts (or "experts" ;) ) are 100% right? No. But IMO it's worth thinking about how to weigh mainstream advice against other alternative experts, some of them relatively self-appointed.

    We haven't seen Team Vegan show up on your thread yet, but there are also experts/"experts" that claim that's the most anti-inflammatory way to eat. I'm not going to say that. I try not to have a food-style religion, because I think that's silly, but I'm sure I slide that way sometimes. Human, y'know? For sure, though I'm vegetarian, I'm not going to tell you that that's the best way to eat, because it isn't; or that it's sure to be anti-inflammatory because I don't personally have as much inflammation as I used to. It's complicated.

    I'll add this: I don't think we can say much from looking at your macros plus a few micros that we all know MFP doesn't track very accurately. I think specific food choices really matter. As a much too general generality, ultra-processed foods are more likely to contain substances we wouldn't use when cooking in our own kitchen, and some of those substances don't have a long record of consumption through a sweep of human history. Are they bad? Dunno. The US regulatory practice of letting things remain in food when nothing horrible has yet been proven against them . . . not helpful in this regard, I think.

    Some other things that are mentioned in general mainstream, conservative sources as potential influences on systemic inflammation are trans fats and omega-3/omega-6 balance.

    You have one gram of trans fat showing in your average.
    An outfit like WHO suggests trans fat be limited to no more than 1% of daily calories, and others deem it as having no safe level. Generally, trans fats are believed to be pro-inflammatory.

    To top it off, that may one gram of trans fat may not be all you're eating. The US nutrition labeling laws may not be our friend when it comes to limiting trans fat to tiny levels: Last I knew, a serving had to have 0.5g or more of trans fat in order to have trans fat be non-zero on the label. When the 2000-calorie US reference diet plus the WHO recommendation would limit trans fat intake to no more than 2.2g of trans fats, that 0.5g issue IMO may becomes meaningful.

    O-3/O-6 balance is another thing we can't tell from just your nutrient list. Most USA-ians are getting an overbalanced ratio, i.e. more O-6 than considered ideal compared to their O-3. That seems to be considered pro-inflammatory. Without knowing things like your intake of high O-3 fish (among other things), it's hard to know what your ratio might be.

    Personally - and I know I am getting a little bit food-religion-y here - I would want to be eating more poly- and mono-unsaturated fats than you are. That doesn't relate clearly to O-3/O-6 balance, though. I also was surprised to see that your fiber intake was only 28g, given that you have quite a large calorie budget. That 28g should be an adequate level, but it tees off questions in my head about micronutrient levels, beneficial phytochemicals, pre-biotics and that sort of thing, since the foods with those aspects often also deliver a good bit of fiber (pre-biotics literally are types of fiber).

    Once again, this is a long ramble. I'm also just another random idiot on the internet, one with no degrees or certifications in nutrition, just personal interest (and presumably as much confirmation bias as the next person).

    So, TL;DR: See your RD. Consider more than one view of what an anti-inflammatory diet might be, and (IMO) prefer views from well-credentialed sources. Your specific food choices may matter more than just the macros and a few micros (that are questionably accurate on MFP anyway).

    I hope you can find a solution to the pain you're experiencing, sincerely.
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,679 Member
    Rambles appreciated. It’s all “food” for thought.

    I do not eat enough vegetables or fruit. I try but they get shoved to the side. I’ve heard to podcasts by nutritional research scientists touting 30 or 43 different fruit/veg/soices/nuts/legumes per week. That’s the next thing I need to work on.

    Ha! It’s six years and I’m still refining my dietary needs! Listen to that, newbs!

    Can’t get it in to see RD til Jan 13. Apparently the New Years resolutioners beat me to the punch. She’s the RD for our (hospital affiliated and community) gym. I’ve noticed numbers at the gym are already way up, too. Swim lanes are like hens teeth all of a sudden, too, if you don’t reserve them the instant they open up, which is exactly seven days out. I’ve waited a minute or two to get in to reserve next week- and often found two of the three already booked.
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,679 Member
    edited December 11
    pS: got curious about that transfat.

    The only transfat I’ve logged in months has been the occasional Cookout burger (“Bye Bye Eat” is a huge treat for the dog, because he gets to sit on their patio, act like he’s got some sense, and gets a burger to himself).

    But the bulk has been tortilla chips, which I make nachos with every month or two.

    I eat no fried foods at all other than a large apple fritter every Sunday morning. That’s probably got some transfers that aren’t reported, but finding an entry for one is ridiculous.

    I’m not too worried about fiber. I feel like that’s one of those that has a lot of erroneous database entries. As long as I’m over, I figure I’m probably getting even more than that IRL.

    Ditto with transfats. Even if they’re a gram or two above, due to database errors, it’s still a heckuva a lot better than it used to be.

    Although, if I want to try anti inflammatory or elimination, I’ll need to get over that line of thought. 🧐

    I worry about the continuously high sodium, but otoh I sweat a TON, so I figure it’s just visiting for the most part.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,620 Member
    I'm not saying the fiber level is a problem in the abstract: 28g should be fine. I see 25g as a reasonable target for women in a lot of sources. (It's one of those "we need a certain minimum" things, but it's OK to over . . . but some people don't do well with "too much", which I think is individual. For sure, don't jump it up dramatically all at once.)

    My point was more that the fiber level made me think (accurately, sounds like?) that your veggie/fruit intake might be on the lower side for as many calories as I think you eat. The mainstream recommendation is minimum 5 servings daily, usually in the half-cup/80ish grams range per serving. Some mainstream sources now saying more is better, maybe 10. The 30-40 per week people usually include things you might not think of as veggies/fruits, like coffee, tea, spices, etc. (not in half cup quantities). That's more about diversity of plant consumption, not so much large quantities of each, IMU.

    Underlying some of that thinking is feeding the gut microbiome. Research in that area is still very young, not clear what it does exactly in many respects, but there seems to be a correlation between gut microbiome diversity and positive health outcomes. Getting diverse fiber types and eating some probiotic foods can maybe help with that . . . but that's all somewhat speculative, not fully proven proven, in my view.

    Low veggies/fruit has some tendency to correlate with some low food-sourced micros, too, as well as the beneficial phytochemicals. Those may affect inflammation. I'm not going to pretend this is all fully proven stuff, or that I'm an expert.

    Trans fat: In my world, a gram of trans daily is too much trans fat . . . and we need to assume we get more than the labels say. YMMV. Just because it's a small number, it's easy to ignore, but the recommended limits are either small or zero.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,265 Member
    edited December 11
    springlering62 wrote: »
    pS: got curious about that transfat.

    The only transfat I’ve logged in months has been the occasional Cookout burger (“Bye Bye Eat” is a huge treat for the dog, because he gets to sit on their patio, act like he’s got some sense, and gets a burger to himself).

    But the bulk has been tortilla chips, which I make nachos with every month or two.

    I eat no fried foods at all other than a large apple fritter every Sunday morning. That’s probably got some transfers that aren’t reported, but finding an entry for one is ridiculous.

    I’m not too worried about fiber. I feel like that’s one of those that has a lot of erroneous database entries. As long as I’m over, I figure I’m probably getting even more than that IRL.

    Ditto with transfats. Even if they’re a gram or two above, due to database errors, it’s still a heckuva a lot better than it used to be.

    Although, if I want to try anti inflammatory or elimination, I’ll need to get over that line of thought. 🧐

    I worry about the continuously high sodium, but otoh I sweat a TON, so I figure it’s just visiting for the most part.

    High sodium is pretty well a given in a diet that has enough processed foods for that to be a concern, and processed foods also is where your going to find most of the trans fats in food as well.

    There is a reason why they're reduced to those low levels and a reason why those low levels are acceptable.

    The 900 lb gorilla when it comes to trans fats is "partially hydrogenated oil" which are actually polyunsaturated fats from various seed oils, originally back in the day, 1911 or 12 Proctor & Gamble used cottonseed a left over waste product that was primarily being used for animal feed and the oil used for lubricating the industrial revolution and that's when they decided this PHO could be used to replace lard and butter called Crisco, of course they couldn't know the health implication at the time but the USDA knew in 2000 they shouldn't be consumed and finally dropped the GRAS ( Generally Recognized as Safe) status in 2015 and the compliance ban didn't take place until Jan 2021. 21 years later. Refined seed oils, like corn and canola today contain trace amounts of trans fats but that's from the refining process and not because they contain PHO's.

    The USDA recommends that half of the grain products we consume come from refined grains, which has to do with vitamin and mineral fortification from the fiber content in an all whole grain diet and would leave the Country deficient in many vitamins and minerals from the lack of absorption, so we can expect that the .05g's per serving to be around forever and of course and therefore so will refined seed oils simply because refined carbs are only found in processed and ultra processed foods.

    Trans fats do more than increase inflammation and inflammation is the result of all that bad stuff which include actually messing with our cellular membrane integrity and fluidity which is really important, which effect cell signaling and obviously it effects our lipid metabolism and negatively effect our mitochondria, which all lead to pro inflammatory cytokines.

    As far as people doing their own research, I believe it pays dividends in spades especially when it's on a continual timeline. All the data that Doctors and dietitians are given is on the internet and some are going to explore that same data, saying people are not capable of understanding or connecting the dots is short sighted. There's literally thousands of studies, yes actual studies and RCT's unlike the WHO for example and the same studies Dr's are using as learning data is available to everyone and it will become apparent to anyone that actually does the leg work and soon realize that the majority of studies on the ketogenic diet for example (over 90%) show improvement and reversal of many of the non communicable disease, especially diabetes and inflammation.

    Pretty much all Doctors that have left mainstream medicine and opened their own clinic dealing with metabolic disease use dietary interventions as the medicine and pretty much all of them use a very low and/or ketogenic diet, coincidence, I don't thinks so. It really isn't rocket science. IMO of course. :)

  • SafariGalNYC
    SafariGalNYC Posts: 1,582 Member
    neanderthin wrote: »
    springlering62 wrote: »
    pS: got curious about that transfat.

    The only transfat I’ve logged in months has been the occasional Cookout burger (“Bye Bye Eat” is a huge treat for the dog, because he gets to sit on their patio, act like he’s got some sense, and gets a burger to himself).

    But the bulk has been tortilla chips, which I make nachos with every month or two.

    I eat no fried foods at all other than a large apple fritter every Sunday morning. That’s probably got some transfers that aren’t reported, but finding an entry for one is ridiculous.

    I’m not too worried about fiber. I feel like that’s one of those that has a lot of erroneous database entries. As long as I’m over, I figure I’m probably getting even more than that IRL.

    Ditto with transfats. Even if they’re a gram or two above, due to database errors, it’s still a heckuva a lot better than it used to be.

    Although, if I want to try anti inflammatory or elimination, I’ll need to get over that line of thought. 🧐

    I worry about the continuously high sodium, but otoh I sweat a TON, so I figure it’s just visiting for the most part.



    Pretty much all Doctors that have left mainstream medicine and opened their own clinic dealing with metabolic disease use dietary interventions as the medicine and pretty much all of them use a very low and/or ketogenic diet, coincidence, I don't thinks so. It really isn't rocket science. IMO of course. :)

    @neanderthin @springlering62

    To Neanderthin’s point in bold - I found this timely as my endocrinologist from Mount Sinai NY - left to start a metabolic holistic practice with a few other doctors of varying medical fields. One thing she/they stress with inflammatory conditions is avoidance of AGE’s - advanced glycation end products. (Mount Sinai NY did a landmark research study on its effects in the body)

    Interestingly enough - I rarely see any conversation about AGE’s on MFP forums and it’s critical to diet and health.
  • springlering62
    springlering62 Posts: 8,679 Member
    (lifted from Healthline.com:)

    Some modern foods contain relatively high amounts of AGEs.

    This is mostly due to popular methods of cooking that expose food to dry heat.

    These include barbecuing, grilling, roasting, baking, frying, sautéing, broiling, searing, and toasting

    Good grief. What’s left? 😭

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