Carnivore or Keto

neanderthin

@mrbretmaye thanks for you story. A familiar motif for pretty much all that end up doing carnivore.

robertw486

neanderthin wrote: »

@robertw486

I'm aware there is Vitamin C in some meats. Almost all organ meats, brain, and a few other parts actually contain more Vit C than liver does IIRC. A few seafoods contain it as well. And though I will gladly concede that most of us will survive just fine without RDA's of all nutrients, that 25-40 mg only brings me to about 1/3 of RDA. So in this case about 12-13 ounces of beef liver per day would get me to the RDA levels.

I didn't address this, sorry about that. Only 10mg's of vit C is necessary to protect against scurvy. Also it appears from the anecdotal evidence from my research most carnivores, males mostly and some females are eating about 2 lbs of animal protein a day and so that basically covers the scurvy concerns, imo.

I'm sorry, but here is another example of why certain styles of eating get a bad rap.

Are you really going to try to tell people that only 10mg of vitamin C is sufficient? That is only about 10-12% of most recommendations. If it was sufficient, why are there examples of people eating extreme diet styles that end up with scurvy? Did they not read the correct blog from a supporter telling them they won't get ill even if their diet only provides a number of nutrients in only tiny amounts?

Beyond that, the same types of statements regarding elite athletes have been made, and most easily disproven, for years. Of the ones you mentioned, I've seen info stating many of them only eat low or no carb some of the time, usually during certain training evolutions. As with many, they often carb up for races and such. Two of the names I didn't recognize were easy enough to search and find just this as a result.

Personally, when it reaches this level I consider most of what is stated to be based on confirmation bias, not reality, and certainly not science.


And the sad thing is, in this day and age multivitamin supplements and such are dirt cheap. One could easily suggest they go on one of these extreme diets of (pick a flavor) but log it and watch for any nutritional or other shortages and adjust as needed. But then it's harder to tell people how simple it is.... after all it takes no effort.

neanderthin

robertw486 wrote: »

neanderthin wrote: »

@robertw486

I'm aware there is Vitamin C in some meats. Almost all organ meats, brain, and a few other parts actually contain more Vit C than liver does IIRC. A few seafoods contain it as well. And though I will gladly concede that most of us will survive just fine without RDA's of all nutrients, that 25-40 mg only brings me to about 1/3 of RDA. So in this case about 12-13 ounces of beef liver per day would get me to the RDA levels.

I didn't address this, sorry about that. Only 10mg's of vit C is necessary to protect against scurvy. Also it appears from the anecdotal evidence from my research most carnivores, males mostly and some females are eating about 2 lbs of animal protein a day and so that basically covers the scurvy concerns, imo.

I'm sorry, but here is another example of why certain styles of eating get a bad rap.

Are you really going to try to tell people that only 10mg of vitamin C is sufficient? That is only about 10-12% of most recommendations. If it was sufficient, why are there examples of people eating extreme diet styles that end up with scurvy? Did they not read the correct blog from a supporter telling them they won't get ill even if their diet only provides a number of nutrients in only tiny amounts?

Beyond that, the same types of statements regarding elite athletes have been made, and most easily disproven, for years. Of the ones you mentioned, I've seen info stating many of them only eat low or no carb some of the time, usually during certain training evolutions. As with many, they often carb up for races and such. Two of the names I didn't recognize were easy enough to search and find just this as a result.

Personally, when it reaches this level I consider most of what is stated to be based on confirmation bias, not reality, and certainly not science.


And the sad thing is, in this day and age multivitamin supplements and such are dirt cheap. One could easily suggest they go on one of these extreme diets of (pick a flavor) but log it and watch for any nutritional or other shortages and adjust as needed. But then it's harder to tell people how simple it is.... after all it takes no effort.

The 10mg to avoid scurvy is pretty well known, studies (science) looking at carnivores and Vit C go back to the 1940's and it's also in that 20 year old study you provided.

I'm sure all the people that are on the carnivore diet that aren't dead from scurvy have gathered together to create this elaborate conspiracy just to mess with people and make their brains fall out. Looks like it's working.

springlering62

I read up on carnivore. For some reason I thought it was simpler than Keto.

I sincerely applaud you for making one of the other work for you, but when I read the carnivore guidelines to my meat eating husband, even he was like “hell no”. He thought I was pulling his leg.

That’s a helluva a commitment y'all are making.

neanderthin

springlering62 wrote: »

I read up on carnivore. For some reason I thought it was simpler than Keto.

I sincerely applaud you for making one of the other work for you, but when I read the carnivore guidelines to my meat eating husband, even he was like “hell no”. He thought I was pulling his leg.

That’s a helluva a commitment y'all are making.

Hey springer, The guideline for carnivore are pretty basic, eat only animal derived foods, eat until your full, rinse and repeat. The only concern is not getting enough fat because of the decades saying to avoid them, so that is real and a concern.

Keto on the other hand is to make sure the carb sources don't exceed 20g's a day, which is complicated lately by the industrial food complex that is producing all these "keto treats" that when you read the labels many from just one serving are more than 20g's. Testing to ensure ketones are with a certain range. Also there's a few different keto protocols which will depend on lifestyle and other factors and the need to pick one. I guess my point is carnivore is as basic as it gets.

Also most, actually pretty much all that eventually find carnivore had the same initial thoughts about just eating meat and as an example @mrbretmaye said " Initially I thought that they were mad" and he also though keto wasn't much better so he kept looking but eventually after trying different diet strategies and not seeing any progress carnivore is going to keep coming up in their algorithm and when you continually hear from people actually on the diet and finding a lot of success with story and story then that is generally when you give it a go and most start with the 30 or 60 day test and most never look back, that's how it works 95% of the time.

Keep in mind and like I said this is a diet for people with a lot of metabolic dysfunction that are engaged in looking for a solution and if not and it's just to lose weight, well that's just not enough to justify something this radical, because it is radical, except for the people where it's changed their lives and I've been saying keto and carnivore are not for most people and if just for weight loss then that isn't actually a good idea and I'm not saying everyone should do it, never said that, but I think most people believe that is my stance, oh well, what can you do.

Alatariel75

neanderthin wrote: »

springlering62 wrote: »

I read up on carnivore. For some reason I thought it was simpler than Keto.

I sincerely applaud you for making one of the other work for you, but when I read the carnivore guidelines to my meat eating husband, even he was like “hell no”. He thought I was pulling his leg.

That’s a helluva a commitment y'all are making.

Hey springer, The guideline for carnivore are pretty basic, eat only animal derived foods, eat until your full, rinse and repeat. The only concern is not getting enough fat because of the decades saying to avoid them, so that is real and a concern.

Aren't there also guidelines around including organ meat so you get vitamins? I can see a lot of people reading what you've just said about and going "woohoo, eggs, steak and chicken drums for life!"

springlering62

That’s another thing. Mom was a horrible cook. I had liver once in my life. One bite and I was done.

Maybe it’s wonderful and delicious but I personally see that as punishment if the very worst kind.

@neanderthin you are a doll and one of the most helpful people around here. I certainly don’t take it that your way is the only way.

neanderthin

Alatariel75 wrote: »

neanderthin wrote: »

springlering62 wrote: »

I read up on carnivore. For some reason I thought it was simpler than Keto.

I sincerely applaud you for making one of the other work for you, but when I read the carnivore guidelines to my meat eating husband, even he was like “hell no”. He thought I was pulling his leg.

That’s a helluva a commitment y'all are making.

Hey springer, The guideline for carnivore are pretty basic, eat only animal derived foods, eat until your full, rinse and repeat. The only concern is not getting enough fat because of the decades saying to avoid them, so that is real and a concern.

Aren't there also guidelines around including organ meat so you get vitamins? I can see a lot of people reading what you've just said about and going "woohoo, eggs, steak and chicken drums for life!"

Consuming offal is not an American thing but carnivores from other Countries do partake. Personally I would consume liver and do and yes it certainly would help in certain vit & minerals for example Vit A, C, folate, copper and choline are better served consuming liver. Saying that, many people have been consuming pretty much the muscle meat of rudiment animals for years and decades with no ill health, or at least it's not something that seems to be of concern in the general landscape of carnivore and not mentioned at all, basically.

People on carnivore are not ideologically driven, it's not a religion and they don't get on each others case for not doing carnivore a certain way so there are variation of carnivore or some foods that wouldn't be considered carnivore but like I said nobody gives anyone grief simply because what drives this demographic is health and everyone has unique dysfunction that requires different solutions and the aim for a lot of people is seeing what they can eat or add back in so that it doesn't effect their particular progress, if that makes sense. Saying that some carnivores consume berries. Many include some form of condiment like hot sauces for example and some also include garlic and onions. Also a few people have mentioned honey, so that as well, but not as frequently used.

neanderthin

springlering62 wrote: »

@neanderthin you are a doll and one of the most helpful people around here. I certainly don’t take it that your way is the only way.

Thanks springer and very nice of you to say. cheers.

watts6151

Interesting listen form Paul Saladin
Who wrote the book on the carnivore diet

https://youtu.be/PzX_NS7EwF0?si=B7sqIjvzCrAz_R-A

robertw486

neanderthin wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

neanderthin wrote: »

@robertw486

I'm aware there is Vitamin C in some meats. Almost all organ meats, brain, and a few other parts actually contain more Vit C than liver does IIRC. A few seafoods contain it as well. And though I will gladly concede that most of us will survive just fine without RDA's of all nutrients, that 25-40 mg only brings me to about 1/3 of RDA. So in this case about 12-13 ounces of beef liver per day would get me to the RDA levels.

I didn't address this, sorry about that. Only 10mg's of vit C is necessary to protect against scurvy. Also it appears from the anecdotal evidence from my research most carnivores, males mostly and some females are eating about 2 lbs of animal protein a day and so that basically covers the scurvy concerns, imo.

I'm sorry, but here is another example of why certain styles of eating get a bad rap.

Are you really going to try to tell people that only 10mg of vitamin C is sufficient? That is only about 10-12% of most recommendations. If it was sufficient, why are there examples of people eating extreme diet styles that end up with scurvy? Did they not read the correct blog from a supporter telling them they won't get ill even if their diet only provides a number of nutrients in only tiny amounts?

Beyond that, the same types of statements regarding elite athletes have been made, and most easily disproven, for years. Of the ones you mentioned, I've seen info stating many of them only eat low or no carb some of the time, usually during certain training evolutions. As with many, they often carb up for races and such. Two of the names I didn't recognize were easy enough to search and find just this as a result.

Personally, when it reaches this level I consider most of what is stated to be based on confirmation bias, not reality, and certainly not science.


And the sad thing is, in this day and age multivitamin supplements and such are dirt cheap. One could easily suggest they go on one of these extreme diets of (pick a flavor) but log it and watch for any nutritional or other shortages and adjust as needed. But then it's harder to tell people how simple it is.... after all it takes no effort.

The 10mg to avoid scurvy is pretty well known, studies (science) looking at carnivores and Vit C go back to the 1940's and it's also in that 20 year old study you provided.

I'm sure all the people that are on the carnivore diet that aren't dead from scurvy have gathered together to create this elaborate conspiracy just to mess with people and make their brains fall out. Looks like it's working.

If you really think that pointing out false claims or flaws in what is stated is going to make anyones brains fall out, you might want to consider just how easy it is.

In this case avoiding scurvy and suggesting amounts that meet this mark are sufficient is just plain ignoring what we know are optimal nutrient levels in humans. Even with examples given that this suboptimal level has happened with such an extreme diet, you attempt to move the goalposts rather than accept alternate ways to avoid the lack of nutrients.


As with any other way of eating, people should supplement when needed, and in some extreme diets we know the needs will be greater. A well rounded diet avoids some of these problems, but even then is not without possible nutrient issues. To claim that adjusting levels to suit ones point of view rather than strive for known optimal levels is simply not responsible promotion of a way of eating.

A more responsible approach would be to suggest that anyone making drastic diet changes should be more inclined to make sure their health providers pay more attention to vitamin and mineral testing results, and supplement when/if needed. It really should be done regardless of how a person eats, but with any radical changes it should probably be even more a priority.