Instead of TDEE, use Apple move calories instead?

iaincottrell2016

Doing a bit of research into the whole BMR, TDEE area and I note the TDEE is based on a activity multiplier of your BMR between sedentry to very active etc.

Querying this further, I then assessed that whilst this is a good indicator, that for greater accuracy on a per day basis is to use the Apple move calorie metric (Not Apple active calorie). So for instance my BMR is 1790 (58yo male, 173cm, 98kg).

I then add back my apple move calories which can vary between say 840 and 1700 per day, then subtract my required daily calorie deficit of 720.

The one issue I am finding with the above is that whilst MFP is linked to my Apple Watch is that its registered exercise metric of calories burnt is less than what Apple reports and this is regardless of whether it is Apple Move or Apple Active.

Any comments or experiences on the above approach? and then experiences of how do I get MFP to link to my Apple Move calories, not just steps nor just registered exercise sessions?

AnnPT77

I think you're overcomplicating if you do that, TBH.

Strictly speaking, TDEE is your total daily energy expenditure . . . the actual number of calories you burn in a day, and it's different every day. A "TDEE Calculator" gives you an estimate of your average TDEE. Yes, usually that estimate is uses an estimated BMR (basal metabolic rate) or RMR (resting metabolic rate) and an activity multiplier. The BMR or RMR are also just estimates, not "truths". They're basically the statistical average BMR or RMR of demographically similar people as determined by reasonably large scale research.

Essentially, you have a true TDEE, a true BMR, and a true RMR. RMR and TDEE can be measured, or pretty close to measured, but only in a metabolic lab and only at a point in time, a snapshot. BMR is possible to measure, but more difficult, and RMR is close enough. Actual TDEE changes potentially quite a lot from one day to the next, and actual BMR/RMR also vary daily, but typically through a smaller range.

TL;DR: Anything outside a metabolic lab is an estimate. We need a workable one. We don't need a perfect one, but we may need a personalized one.

I think what you're proposing doing is pretty much just a more time-consuming, messy version of what syncing your Apple watch to MFP is already doing.

It sounds like one of your concerns is that your calorie adjustment in MFP, and maybe your exercise calories brought over from Apple, don't exactly match either the active or exercise calories on the Apple side. Generally we wouldn't expect the calorie adjustment to match any particular number on the Apple side.

First, let's note that MFP isn't trying to estimate your TDEE. It's designed for you to set your MFP activity level based on activity excluding intentional exercise. It uses your demographic data to estimate your BMR/RMR. Yes, it applies an activity multiplier to that to estimate your non-exercise activity, i.e., calories burned on the job, doing home chores, etc. Adding those together, it estimates your average all-day calorie expenditure excluding exercise (which is not TDEE). If you told it you want to lose or gain weight, it subtracts or adds calories to that total pre-exercise estimated calorie burn to give you a calorie goal. It expects you to log exercise when you do some, and eat those calories, too, to preserve that same calorie deficit or surplus whether you exercise or not.

Syncing a tracker, like your Apple watch, will simplify and personalize your calorie goal as a starting estimate. Conceptually, the sync does two things: It adjusts your calorie goal for the exercise you do, and it also potentially adjusts your calorie goal for daily life movement that differs from what MFP estimated using the activity multiplier. Your MFP calorie adjustment accounts for both of those categories.

MFP expected (estimated) you to burn X calories on average daily based on your profile settings including activity level.

Your tracker also estimates your BMR/RMR based on your demographic data, and also adds calories based on your activity. It does a more nuanced estimate of your activity calories, but not necessarily a more accurate one. It looks at the various things it does measure (none of which are calories), plus some of the demographic data you told it, to estimate how many calories you burn each day through activity. That includes exercise, but also all that job, home, etc. movement stuff. It uses the data it collects plus algorithms based on statistical models, to estimate calories from all that movement.

On any given day, your tracker thinks you burned Y calories, which can differ from MFP's estimate of X calories. Behind the scenes, MFP and the tracker compare what MFP expected you to burn and what the tracker saw you as burning. They may do some projected estimates during the day, but by end of day, the calorie adjustment would be expected to be the difference between full-day X and Y. That isn't necessarily your active calories, nor is it your move calories, nor is it your exercise calories. It's the difference between MFP's estimate and the tracker's estimate.

There's one wrinkle: If you don't turn on the "negative calorie adjustments" setting in MFP - which IMO you should - MFP will only add calories to your goal when Y is greater than X. It won't subtract calories when Y is less than X. That's probably not ideal, if you want your calorie balance to accomplish the goal you set in MFP - gain, lose or maintain weight. I'd strongly suggest turning negative adjustments on, and most people who do that will probably be happier if they set their MFP activity level on the low side of reasonable, so they get more positive adjustments than negative ones.

If you think about it, even the calories for an individual exercise session that you want Apple to convey to MFP aren't the total estimated calories burned during the time you were exercising. MFP already assumed you were burning your BMR calories during that time, and it assumed you were burning some daily life calories during that time, too. Ideally, what you want included in your calorie goal from the exercise calories is the number of calories burned during that time slot in excess of BMR + daily life activity.

TL;DR again: MFP and Apple, behind the scenes, are already doing pretty much what you're trying to achieve by using BMR estimate + move calories estimate - deficit, except they do it automatically without your having to manually fuss with your goal every day.

Here's the real kicker in all of this, though: The Apple estimate can be wrong, just like the MFP estimate can be wrong. BMR/RMR estimates can be wrong, and so can activity estimates. Either Apple or MFP - with accurate settings - can be workably close, and will be for most people, because most people are close to the statistical averages. . . but a few people aren't close to the averages. (I'm probably extra sensitive about that because I'm one of the weirdos: MFP and tracker are both off by hundreds of calories daily, compared with almost 10 years of calorie logging and weight change experience. That's rare, but it can happen.)

How do you find out how close average you are? You follow your adjusted calorie goal in MFP pretty closely for 4-6 weeks - or whole menstrual cycles for women who have those - and see whether your results on average are pretty close to the goal you requested in MFP. If they're close, you're close to average, and the sync is working. If they're not close, you may need to make an adjustment in your calorie goal.

If I were you, I'd stick with the sync and the calorie adjustment for the 4-6 week trial: See if the simple approach works for you. Do turn negative adjustments on, though, I'd recommend.

Best wishes!

springlering62

If I’m understanding your question (which I’m not sure I am) that’s because you’re not going to get credit for all your ring turning as shown on your Apple Watch

For example, I’ve turned my “move ring” four times today for 1200 calories, but only got MFP credit for 588 (see below).

Apple tracks all your activity when moving rings along, which could be making your bed, brushing teeth, walking to the mailbox, cleaning house, normal, daily activity outside of pushing the button to start an exercise

As a result, MFP is not going to credit me for 1200 calories because a goodly number of those 1200 were by simply existing.

Also, if you’re burning upwards of 1700, per your watch, you need to set your Apple Watch Calorie Adjustment which helps adjust the accuracy of the calculations, too.

That’s because I selected my level as “extremely active”, so it’s implied that I should be burning a lot more calories outside of exercise than the person who selected sedentary or mildly active.

Today, I’ve been on the sofa nearly all day planning a trip, when I told MFP to treat me as “highly active”. I haven’t been, so it’s adjusted me.

You should be at “highly active” within MFP too, if you’re turning a 300 calorie ring more than, say, 3x. 1700 is pretty darn active if you’re hitting that regularly.

if your settings are correct within MFP, don’t overthink it. Apple Watch syncs really well. You spent a small fortune on it, let it do the work for you and focus on other things.

And one last caveat, since your 1700 indicates a high burner It’s very easy for those of us sporting an Apple Watch and a nasty propensity for OCD thinking to become overly invested in Apple Challenges, ring turning, congratulatory screen fireworks, and the like.

Apple is an unforgiving mistress.

There have been months when I’ve average turning fix or six times a day, and yet I get a new monthly challenge encouraging me to “increase my activity”, “add more steps”, or “add more exercise minutes”.

Apple Watch does not build common sense like rest days in, nor does it recognize when you’re six time zones away, working your *kitten* off helping someone with a remodeling project, falling into bed from sheer exhaustion, and yet Apple is blithely busy busy sending you messages : your activity is down. You’ve averaged fewer steps.

Take it from me, don’t let Apple Watch run your life. It’s a great tool, but sometimes you have to step back and remind yourself “tool” is the operative word.

springlering62

and to your question, there’s no way to set it up to relate to move rings. It’s designed to work with the calorie goal you’ve set and specified exercises.

You could go in and swipe left to delete recorded exercises but I don’t think it’s gonna get you where you want to be?

You could always track with paper and pencil but when you’ve got a technological marvel on your wrist and in your pocket- and you do- let them have the opportunity to work as designed.

I’ve lost a buttload doing that. Literally, my britches are down nine sizes!

iaincottrell2016

Thankyou both springlering62 and AnnPT77. Appreciate the thoughts and your time and I need to ‘digest’ further

It must be the way I have MFP configured to Apple Watch.

MFP is correctly showing when I undertake recorded exercise sessions, as of course does Apple Active calories for which MFP feeds off.

However, when I undertook a lot of gardening, mowing and other across a number of hours on the weekend, Apple reflects this in the Move calories (560 calories) , however not Active as I did not formally record a session. Further then MFP did not note this either. Therefore, no credit, so to speak.

It is only noticing this gap across some weeks that triggered me to look into this further. Otherwise, I was just focussing on my calorie goal set in MFP for a set, forget and monitor etc.

It was only when I asked my friendly AI (Co-pilot/chat GPT!) that this then came up and then I set up a simple XLS to compare. too much time on my hands!

springlering62

ahhhhhhh. I see what brought it up. I totally get that.

That four weeks I spent helping remodel? I got zero credit for it the first few days and got mad. I was working my tushy off, above and beyond “highly active”.

I ended up starting the least calorie burning workout I could think of (“stretching”) and letting it run for an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon, even though I was actually at it til I dropped from exhaustion.

Sometimes you kinda have to force it in.

You just have to be careful, though. I’ve seen people here that give themselves calorie credit for housework and then bitterly complain they’re not losing weight. I’m here to say, I’m an utter clean freak. Had counting housework been a calorie burner, I’d have been no bigger than a minute. But I was still obese. Neat house, but big bottom, lol.