Bench press just seems pointless to me
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Reminds me of Mark Rippetoe. He once wrote an article saying you're better off concentrating on the overhead press for strength, implying the bench is more for growing man boobs LOL!
Please point us to where he said this. I would be quite interested in seeing the original, because I've read a lot of his writing, and I've never seen him write anything that could be interpreted this way.
Today's your lucky day. I found it.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/get_your_press_up&cr=
Okay, I've read it before, and I re-read it just now. I do not see him saying "you're better off concentrating on the overhead press for strength, implying the bench is more for growing man boobs LOL!" -- which part of what he said do you interpret that way? What I see in that article is that the press is a lift that is important for shoulder health and for sports performance and is a head-to-toes full body lift, not that one shouldn't do the bench press. Benching without pressing is idiotic, yes, and he is saying that he learned this the hard way.0 -
I'm still trying to figure out why the premise that any time you push against something, you will either be standing or competing in submission wrestling just seems to be accepted as fact. Because, that's the crux of the argument, and if you don't accept it as true, then the entire rest of OP's argument crumbles.
Personally, I don't do that much pushing against things while standing up in my day to day life, and I do zero submission wrestling for sport. But i can think of multiple times in the last few weeks where I've needed to push something up or away while flat on my back.
Then you misunderstand the premise.
How many of those times when you were pressing from your back were you anywhere near your maximal strength limit?
How often do people in their jobs or hobbies do this? If it's on the job, it certainly seems like an OSHA risk to be lifting something that unsecured and heavy by yourself.
I am for pressing strength, I am for having a strong push, I do not understand why this movement has so much focus on it where it seems to have far fewer applications.
Well, if you're a roadie or a stage technician, it happens pretty often. Now, no it's not usually at or close to your maximal strength, but the fact is that bench presses are a tool that develop the strength of those muscles, working in that way, which is what allows you to work with heavier weights at work and NOT be as close to your maximal strength.
So, are you saying the bench press seems pointless (the move in general) or that training to failure or 1RM on the bench press seems pointless? Because those are two different things. You started out saying we don't use that set of muscles in that way naturally. Now you're saying, well, we do, but just not to max strength. So, yes, I am confused.0 -
I didn't way we don't press, I said that we don't use our maximal strength in that way in any regular way except the exercise itself. Maximal being near our one rep max weight.0
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I'll agree the bench press is considerably higher profile than it should be. Probably because it's just a really simple exercise that everyone can do. Still a good exercise though.0
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Yet, clearly many people, including professional athletes like NFL players and the like do the exercise regularly. I am trying to understand why when I never see anybody actually use that movement in that way.
Have you ever played football? That comment leads me to believe no. Using your arms to create separate between yourself and your opponent is integral when blocking or shedding a block. The bench press is a perfectly functional.
If you dont believe me, try having a 300lb man positioned 8 inches from your face getting ready to explode through you to get to the football and see if you can stop him with an OHP or Deadlift type of movement. (Also none of your marital arts is now allowed. Youll get a penalty.
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i think the OP is just trolling. the bench press is used by football, baseball, and basketball players. it involves almost all the major upper body muscles. i dont care what sport u do, having a strong upper body will improve performance.0
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If you're not an athlete and you don't care about bench press strength than don't do it. If you are an athlete, then yes an athletes bench press strength has been well documented over the years in how it transfer to one's ability to throw a shot-put, perform in football, baseball, basketball, wrestling, etc. Just Google and you'll find the answer for yourself. Russian researchers in the field of athletics especially pertaining to olympic sports proved this way back in the 60's and 70's.
Others have eluded to the bench itself, but it's very much confused as being a pectoral exercise and it's really not. A chest press machine is obviously more of a chest exercise but a true bench press is not. The actual order of muscle engagement is something like, 1. Triceps, 2. Lats, 3. Deltoids, 4. Pec's, 5. Legs, 6. Abs. I may have flip-flpped Deltoids and Pecs but you get the basic premise that the pectorals are actually a minor muscle group in the bench press. When done correctly the legs very much support the lift and your abs basically support every exercise you do. Coincidentally, I had to combine my Squat and Bench workout today and I did my Squat session first. My legs were pretty fatigued and staying solid during my benching was very challenging today. Luckily it was a high volume and not high weight session.
Additionally, your prominent strength coaches have all debunked the idea of "sports-specific" exercises; there's no such thing. However, and as I mentioned above, there is strong correlation between one's overall strength and athletic performance related to improved strength in the Bench Press, Squat, and Deadlift.I didn't way we don't press, I said that we don't use our maximal strength in that way in any regular way except the exercise itself. Maximal being near our one rep max weight.
Really? I would think that strength in the bench press would transfer into a strong and explosive jab or punch. Lifting maximally does very much recruit your fast-twitch muscle fibers in a way that not other weight range does, so there should be considerable transfer. Additionally, if you're a grapler having that strength in your upper body will only benefit you.0 -
I dunno. Though I used many other muscles in the process I am pretty sure I used my chest when I pushed a flat cart at Lowe's with 960 pounds of concrete mix on it the other day. I think that makes bench press pretty useful for every day life.0
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I dunno. Though I used many other muscles in the process I am pretty sure I used my chest when I pushed a flat cart at Lowe's with 960 pounds of concrete mix on it the other day. I think that makes bench press pretty useful for every day life.
Whenever I see a lightweight woman struggling with a heavy door, I think, "girl, you need to bench".0 -
I dunno. Though I used many other muscles in the process I am pretty sure I used my chest when I pushed a flat cart at Lowe's with 960 pounds of concrete mix on it the other day. I think that makes bench press pretty useful for every day life.
Whenever I see a lightweight woman struggling with a heavy door, I think, "girl, you need to bench".
Haha, right?
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I dunno. Though I used many other muscles in the process I am pretty sure I used my chest when I pushed a flat cart at Lowe's with 960 pounds of concrete mix on it the other day. I think that makes bench press pretty useful for every day life.
Whenever I see a lightweight woman struggling with a heavy door, I think, "girl, you need to bench".
Or just "learn to leverage", or "lol weak legs", or "your core needs work". Put her flat up against the the door and push, and light woman goes backward vs heavy door.0 -
There's a bodybuilder guy on Youtube named Scooby Werkstatt that is really ripped and I believe he just turned 50 years old and he says he hasn't done a bench press in decades. He just uses dumbbells and does pushups and his chest is definitely developed.
I think you can build a decent chest without doing the bench press, but it's definitely a popular and effective exercise. If that guy can get that big without doing any bench presses then I'm sure the rest of us can. It's a good exercise, but there are plenty of other alternatives to it as well.
I do variations of dumbbell presses and flys at home and I've always found the flys or squeezing type exercises felt better than the presses, but I always do both as well as some pushups. I just don't have the space for a big bench press machine with safety equipment in case I need to bail. If I had more room and $$$ I'd probably get a nice setup though.0 -
I know it may be a little inflammatory, but please don't take it as me trying to pick a fight or anything. I don't understand why people put it in such a lofty position or see it as necessary and I am hoping someone can illustrate me as to why.
From your responses, it seems all you want to do is argue over this issue.. Don't like bench press.. guess what don't do it.
Most of the things you do in the gym you may not need 100% in the real world but what if one day you find yourself needing to be able to push 200+ lbs off you.. or need to any other of the pointless exercises that are done in the gym but may not have real world applications..0 -
I dunno. Though I used many other muscles in the process I am pretty sure I used my chest when I pushed a flat cart at Lowe's with 960 pounds of concrete mix on it the other day. I think that makes bench press pretty useful for every day life.
Whenever I see a lightweight woman struggling with a heavy door, I think, "girl, you need to bench".
Or just "learn to leverage", or "lol weak legs", or "your core needs work". Put her flat up against the the door and push, and light woman goes backward vs heavy door.
LOL, I do have the advantage of strong legs...the last go 'round I had with a heavy door it hit me in the face because I leaned back to steal a caution wet floor sign, but that was many many years ago when I was young and stupid.0 -
Building muscle mass has health benefits. It's hard to maximize results if we ignore some muscles. Having said that, a lot of people do ignore certain muscle groups. It's not unusual to see top heavy muscle bound men with skinny bird legs.0
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Bench press has helped my core considerably. Not to mention great shoulders, biceps, triceps, perky pecs....
My push ups are painless now ( small rotater cuff tear), and I am also pain free in my daily life in movements like a lateral/front raise, or or a raise with a press (dishes, laundry, driving, mountain biking, picking up equipment--heck, picking up anything!). Bench presses have dramatically increased my ROM by strengthening and stabilizing my rotator cuff.0 -
There's a bodybuilder guy on Youtube named Scooby Werkstatt that is really ripped and I believe he just turned 50 years old and he says he hasn't done a bench press in decades.
Be careful with Scooby, I've read quite a few things on the internet posted by other bodybuilders and trainers that say he is a poor bodybuilder and generally very wrong about many things. Most of them call "BS" on him not spending time in a gym and just home workouts. Take what he said with a grain of sand.
Plus, bodybuilding is quite different from strength training and definitely different from off-season sports preparation training.0 -
i think the OP is just trolling. the bench press is used by football, baseball, and basketball players. it involves almost all the major upper body muscles. i dont care what sport u do, having a strong upper body will improve performance.
i don't think he's trolling, but he's clearly just looking for an argument/debate.
the BP is used as part of their evaluation of fitness and strength at the NFL combine. the NFL and all of its' teams consider it a valuable lift to measure and they are not in the business of wasting their time using false metrics, so... yeah, it clearly translates to on field performance in their minds.0 -
i think the OP is just trolling. the bench press is used by football, baseball, and basketball players. it involves almost all the major upper body muscles. i dont care what sport u do, having a strong upper body will improve performance.
i don't think he's trolling, but he's clearly just looking for an argument/debate.
the BP is used as part of their evaluation of fitness and strength at the NFL combine. the NFL and all of its' teams consider it a valuable lift to measure and they are not in the business of wasting their time using false metrics, so... yeah, it clearly translates to on field performance in their minds.
If he is looking for a debate that's fine but I find it odd he has done maybe 1 since high school...not a very good foundation for the debate...lack of understanding or information makes the debate sort of...well...not very well roundd.0 -
My simple-minded contribution to this thread:
I look forward to every Wednesday's workout because as a 5'1, 110-lb female, that almighty feeling of badassery is pronounced as I grunt like a mad trucker while I bench-press 60 lbs.
While a pathetic weight to many and a futile workout to some, 60 lbs of bench presses make me stick my chest out with pride after every single set.
And I do 'em for the follow-up boob squeeze. How utterly shallow of me.0 -
I dunno. Though I used many other muscles in the process I am pretty sure I used my chest when I pushed a flat cart at Lowe's with 960 pounds of concrete mix on it the other day. I think that makes bench press pretty useful for every day life.
Whenever I see a lightweight woman struggling with a heavy door, I think, "girl, you need to bench".
Or just "learn to leverage", or "lol weak legs", or "your core needs work". Put her flat up against the the door and push, and light woman goes backward vs heavy door.
Leverage is great, but it's not going to help you much if you are, say, pinned by rubble flat on your back.
I think we can all agree that a lifting program that consists of nothing but benching is deficient. Yes? Can we all agree on that? Good. Then perhaps do your bench press, and do the other compound lifts, too--if you want to be strong. But doing all the compound lifts to the exclusion of the bench is neither sensible nor really advocated by anyone, so far as I can tell.0 -
Bench press has helped my core considerably. Not to mention great shoulders, biceps, triceps, perky pecs....
My push ups are painless now ( small rotater cuff tear), and I am also pain free in my daily life in movements like a lateral/front raise, or or a raise with a press (dishes, laundry, driving, mountain biking, picking up equipment--heck, picking up anything!). Bench presses have dramatically increased my ROM by strengthening and stabilizing my rotator cuff.
Your profile pic supports your statement. Well done!0 -
I'm still trying to figure out why the premise that any time you push against something, you will either be standing or competing in submission wrestling just seems to be accepted as fact. Because, that's the crux of the argument, and if you don't accept it as true, then the entire rest of OP's argument crumbles.
Personally, I don't do that much pushing against things while standing up in my day to day life, and I do zero submission wrestling for sport. But i can think of multiple times in the last few weeks where I've needed to push something up or away while flat on my back.
Then you misunderstand the premise.
How many of those times when you were pressing from your back were you anywhere near your maximal strength limit?
How often do people in their jobs or hobbies do this? If it's on the job, it certainly seems like an OSHA risk to be lifting something that unsecured and heavy by yourself.
I spoke about grappling, but I was clearly including all expressions of pressing strength while standing. I also included it because while it seems like it would be a strong application while lying on the ground, it is not.
I am for pressing strength, I am for having a strong push, I do not understand why this movement has so much focus on it where it seems to have far fewer applications.
I kind of agree- which is why I tend to do the whole body push- arch planted feet etc.
It's not one of my favorites- it used to be- there is just something kind of primal about it- but to be honest- I actually find the ability to really ground your feet and truly press a useful skill for functional life.
Otherwise a straight press- meh- more for balance- and it's my least favorite thing to do.0 -
Its not even useful for bodybuilding. low pec muscle recruitment. and huge potential for injury. decline and incline are better. and most other chest lifts are better than flat bb bench
Its only primarily useful for powerlifting and sports0 -
well I agree.0
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I think Scooby provides some decent info for the average person, but I agree that his advice should be taken with a grain of salt like anything else. I think you can still get in pretty good shape without doing bench press, but if its available to you then why not. Seems to me that the best training program would cover all the bases with multiple variations of exercises, which would include the bench press. Not everyone has access to bench press machines but if you do I don't see why you would want to specifically skip out on it.0
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I bench press because I like to watch the boys in the gym all go "daaaayyyyuuuuuum"0
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not a big fan of the bench press, but I still do it with dumbells0
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I can identify with the OP's point but I'm not sure I agree with him as stated. Do you want to bench press somebody off you from the bottom position in closed guard? LOL. That'd be dumb. But if you are on top in 1/2 guard and want to maintain a control position some pectoral strength, used at the right moments, may help you keep it.
I roll with a 260 lb no fat Gracie purple belt with a 550 bench. He doesn't need strength to get me, his technique is real clean. But the point is he knows enough Jiujitsu to know the right moment when he can use his strength to nullify a more experienced guy, and he can rip their arms out of their sockets in the process.
As far as MMA training, you usually want to go for as light a weight class as you can but then train to be as strong as possible within that weight class. And if you talk to trainers like Erik Paulsen or Greg Nelson (Brock Loessner's main trainers) they'll use some strength training--not necessarily with all their fighters--but it definitely is part of the game plan for some.
Personally, I think that the explosiveness, speed, tendon strength and intermuscular coordination that comes from powerlifting is a good supplement to the body weight training that most boxers and Muay Thai fighters do. I think the speed is more important than strength. I respect that there are older Muay Thai trainers who don't use any weights, but there are also younger trainers like Bunkerd, Ganyao, Ehn, Sakasem who do, to say nothing of current fighters like John Wayne Parr.
As I see it, combat sports require a mixture of speed, endurance and strength. You do not want to train so much strength that you become a specialized strength athlete. But doing some strength training does help. And that includes the muscles surrounding your shoulder girdle.0
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