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Lifters: I need your thoughts...
Replies
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I just started my 5th month. I have been doing barbell squats, deadlifts, rows, etc... the whole time. Please tell me I'm still getting benefits from them.
What does the mirror tell you?0 -
Squat, Deadlift, BenchPress and Overhead Press are four great compound lifts to form the foundation of a good program. Machine work can be done as assistance lifts after those four lifts.
Like the others said, you can switch the assistance lifts every 6-8 weeks, but keep the 4 main lifts right where there are.
^ this.0 -
Once again thank you so much for the replies! I am also very happy to hear about keeping those compound lifts as a constant. I was afraid to stop doing them and lose the progress I have made. All in all I have been happy with the program, my problems arise because I often doubt my abilities, when I really shouldn't, and I just don't have enough knowledge about lifting to know what is right information and what isn't.0
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Squat, Deadlift, BenchPress and Overhead Press are four great compound lifts to form the foundation of a good program. Machine work can be done as assistance lifts after those four lifts.
Like the others said, you can switch the assistance lifts every 6-8 weeks, but keep the 4 main lifts right where there are.
Not to derail the thread too much, but why are things like rows/pull-ups (an upper back pull) never included as a core lift?0 -
Squat, Deadlift, BenchPress and Overhead Press are four great compound lifts to form the foundation of a good program. Machine work can be done as assistance lifts after those four lifts.
Like the others said, you can switch the assistance lifts every 6-8 weeks, but keep the 4 main lifts right where there are.
Not to derail the thread too much, but why are things like rows/pull-ups (an upper back pull) never included as a core lift?
They are, depending on what you're looking at. With StrongLifts BB Rows are a staple. With 5/3/1, Westside, Cube they are assistance exercises. Pull / Chin-ups should be a staple of anybody's exercise regimen IMO.0 -
Squat, Deadlift, BenchPress and Overhead Press are four great compound lifts to form the foundation of a good program. Machine work can be done as assistance lifts after those four lifts.
Like the others said, you can switch the assistance lifts every 6-8 weeks, but keep the 4 main lifts right where there are.
Not to derail the thread too much, but why are things like rows/pull-ups (an upper back pull) never included as a core lift?
They are, depending on what you're looking at. With StrongLifts BB Rows are a staple. With 5/3/1, Westside, Cube they are assistance exercises. Pull / Chin-ups should be a staple of anybody's exercise regimen IMO.
For me they aren't a core lift. Those are just squat, dl and bench. However, I do BB rows 2-3 times a week for assistance and pull ups once a week. While not a core lift, they are a staple.0 -
Im using 5/3/1 and do lots of rows and chins as assistance lifts to deadlifts and bench. Rows and chins are great!0
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Im using 5/3/1 and do lots of rows and chins as assistance lifts to deadlifts and bench. Rows and chins are great!
Same for me... it just always struck me as odd that neither were considered a core lift. Maybe I'm showing my naivete here, but the idea that OHP is a core lift but chins aren't seems dumb to me.
deads, squats, bench and chins its a far better set of lifts to build your routine around than is deads, squats, bench and OHP. IMO. Perhaps that's the difference between me (a regular guy trying to get a little strong and look a little better) and guys like rippetoe and wendler who are serious lifters.
*puts on flak jacket for impending ****storm*
.0 -
Im using 5/3/1 and do lots of rows and chins as assistance lifts to deadlifts and bench. Rows and chins are great!
Same for me... it just always struck me as odd that neither were considered a core lift. Maybe I'm showing my naivete here, but the idea that OHP is a core lift but chins aren't seems dumb to me.
deads, squats, bench and chins its a far better set of lifts to build your routine around than is deads, squats, bench and OHP. IMO. Perhaps that's the difference between me (a regular guy trying to get a little strong and look a little better) and guys like rippetoe and wendler who are serious lifters.
*puts on flak jacket for impending ****storm*
.
You could argue that part of the beauty of 5/3/1 is that if you wanted to make Rows or Chins a core lift, you could do that as long as you stuck to the format. I would still use OHP as an assistance to benchpress in that case.
I would guess that OHP is a core lift because Wendler is kind of an old school kind of lifter and OHP used to be an Olympic lift. You could also argue that it is a better press than a flat bench for building strength and musculature in the entire upper body.
I guess the important thing is to do the lifts you feel you get the most benefit from.0 -
OP you have already gotten good/solid advice..
I will just add my own experience. I pretty much keep the same "base" for my workouts which are deadlifts, squats, bench press, weighted pulls/chins, rows, and overhead press....I will then cycle in and out some other exercise but I pretty much stay at the same ones. I will make slight adjustments to my routine, like for a long time was working in four to six rep range and this month decided to drop weight down a tad on some lifts, and am working in 8-10 rep range...
I would stay with your base workouts and make minor adjustments every few months...0 -
Yes, you guys are all right and the core lifts pretty much stay the same except that some months the presses are done with the barbell and then the next two months they might be done with dumbbells or a combo of both. The accessory lifts are the ones that seem to change the most. Today is leg day so for this cycle I keep the regular squat but do 6 sets instead of the 3, UGH, and switched out front squats for hack squats. I must say hack squats blow!! Ouch!! Lol I did figure out the leg curl machine and I'm not quite sure how I feel about it yet, but it's in the program so there must be some reason for it.
I really appreciate all the help and guidance you have all given. I get in front of a trainer and they throw all this info at me and talk about how long they've been doing this and then I doubt myself and get nervous about everything. None of them seem to understand my lifting. The one, who I do ignore, keeps asking me if I'm trying to get "bulky" because he swears that's what will happen if I keep lifting. Lol0 -
Im using 5/3/1 and do lots of rows and chins as assistance lifts to deadlifts and bench. Rows and chins are great!
Same for me... it just always struck me as odd that neither were considered a core lift. Maybe I'm showing my naivete here, but the idea that OHP is a core lift but chins aren't seems dumb to me.
deads, squats, bench and chins its a far better set of lifts to build your routine around than is deads, squats, bench and OHP. IMO. Perhaps that's the difference between me (a regular guy trying to get a little strong and look a little better) and guys like rippetoe and wendler who are serious lifters.
*puts on flak jacket for impending ****storm*
.
no one is going to tell you a pull up is a useless/isolation exercise. No way.
I personally find the OHP to be the least compound.. to me a push press feels WAY more 'compound' than a OHP- but I do and teach both of them. It's important to know the difference- and plus- being able to straight press is important- and badass
That being said- I also am a HUGE advocate of the pull up. I think it's fundamental to each program to have a training program to GET you to the point to be able to do them.
But I'm partial and totally bias!!! everyone who works with me wants to do pull ups- and hand stand push ups... they just don't know that they want to
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I personally find the OHP to be the least compound.. to me a push press feels WAY more 'compound' than a OHP- but I do and teach both of them. It's important to know the difference- and plus- being able to straight press is important- and badass
Yeah, I feel like a failure if I lose strength in the pull-up. Even though it's not one of my main lifts I still treat it the same really.
I love Push Press too, but I feel like I get too much legs in it. I've watched my form and learned a trick about leg drive by just holding the bar and my leg drive is fine but I feel like I'm cheating. I just stick to the OHP these days and am hoping a bodyweight Press isn't too far off. LOL. Or being able to Press 225 would be bad-*kitten* for sure.0 -
We have an interesting conversation every so often on my other forum about that strict vs push press... and it's BECAUSE of the legs that makes me want to say it's more compound than strict... you know- compound- more body parts.
But I guess if you are bottom heavy- it's almost ALL leg- and then you have simple have 3 leg driven lifts(push/squat/DL) and only one truly upper- bench- which now that I'm typing it makes sense. So yes- it's definitely a 'cheat' but I just don't look at is as cheat- I view them as 2 different lifts- not a cheater version of one lift (like a kipping motion is not a pull up- it's easier to split the two up rather than think one is a 'cheater' of another)
It makes me want to pull my hair out and put a pencil in my eye when people don't take pull ups seriously. It's such a huge life skill to have.
when the zombie comes: I know at least you and I will be able to pull ourselves up over the fence/wall/building.. all the rest of them can be brain fodder.0 -
You are all mentioning pull ups and that happens to be a new exercise for this two month cycle, problem is I have never been able to do one. Never. So with that being said I'm not sure how best to go about doing this. I tried to follow someone I saw who was sorta like hanging on the Smith machines bar and pulling themselves up to the bar that way. It's more of like a laying down position but not really because your sorta of angled because your feet never leave the floor. Make sense? Well I tried it and it seemed to work but not sure if this is the best way to try and build strength to do a real one. Any suggestions?0
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We have an interesting conversation every so often on my other forum about that strict vs push press... and it's BECAUSE of the legs that makes me want to say it's more compound than strict... you know- compound- more body parts.
But I guess if you are bottom heavy- it's almost ALL leg- and then you have simple have 3 leg driven lifts(push/squat/DL) and only one truly upper- bench- which now that I'm typing it makes sense. So yes- it's definitely a 'cheat' but I just don't look at is as cheat- I view them as 2 different lifts- not a cheater version of one lift (like a kipping motion is not a pull up- it's easier to split the two up rather than think one is a 'cheater' of another)
It makes me want to pull my hair out and put a pencil in my eye when people don't take pull ups seriously. It's such a huge life skill to have.
when the zombie comes: I know at least you and I will be able to pull ourselves up over the fence/wall/building.. all the rest of them can be brain fodder.
Oh don't get me wrong, I do like the Push Press and view it as a compound lift but for me I just feel like I'm cheating. It's more of a mental thing than anything for me. I don't even think my leg involvement is all that aggressive, definitely just a mental thing. LOL! It's kind of like lifting straps, could never bring myself to use them until recently. I've hit my DL goals at this point and since I'm having some bad forearm tendonitis I figure they would help me. I only use them on a couple sets actually.
Yeah, pull-ups and dips are important. I can have a great session with my main lift but doing poorly on chin-ups can actually ruin the session for me. LOL0 -
You are all mentioning pull ups and that happens to be a new exercise for this two month cycle, problem is I have never been able to do one. Never. So with that being said I'm not sure how best to go about doing this. I tried to follow someone I saw who was sorta like hanging on the Smith machines bar and pulling themselves up to the bar that way. It's more of like a laying down position but not really because your sorta of angled because your feet never leave the floor. Make sense? Well I tried it and it seemed to work but not sure if this is the best way to try and build strength to do a real one. Any suggestions?
that's called an inverted row. (supine pull up australian pull up) whatever
yes- it's totally a thing- they are HARD- the further out your feet are the harder it is- the lower and more parallel with the floor you are- the harder it is.
definitely a GREAT place to start- go for it.
Also include negatives (use the assisted- or the smith either one) pull yourself up- and lower yourself down as slowly as possible.
T Rows (using the bar that's braced off the ground)
DB or BB rows
Bands or just putting your foot on a chair to give yourself an assit up (I can post pictures to demonstrate this later tonight)
or the assisted pull up- this is last on the list because I think it's pure rubbish. But all those things- train them to help your back. you need to be stronger AND you need to be AWARE of what muscles to use. using all that stuff will help. i'm kind of a pull up junkie- so if you need some further advice clarification by all means ask. I can't stand that there is this pervasive notion pull ups are for men. blarf. get off my bar and let me work!0 -
But I'm partial and totally bias!!! everyone who works with me wants to do pull ups- and hand stand push ups... they just don't know that they want to
Pullups have always been one of my favorite lifts... and when I started doing them weighted I liked them that much more.
Handstand pushups I'm still working on. I can't do them consistently, and have never gotten to where I can do more than one. But it's not far off.0 -
Oh don't get me wrong, I do like the Push Press and view it as a compound lift but for me I just feel like I'm cheating. It's more of a mental thing than anything for me. I don't even think my leg involvement is all that aggressive, definitely just a mental thing. LOL! It's kind of like lifting straps, could never bring myself to use them until recently. I've hit my DL goals at this point and since I'm having some bad forearm tendonitis I figure they would help me. I only use them on a couple sets actually.
Yeah, pull-ups and dips are important. I can have a great session with my main lift but doing poorly on chin-ups can actually ruin the session for me. LOL
with you 100%
I don't use straps either in principle- I'm getting to the point where I am starting to think I need a belt. I use straps when I get to a weight I think is pushing it- but I think a belt is more important to me- but I hate using them. I'm pushing 300 and my last big lift I had super ****ty form. there was a guy doing 225 the other day and had for **** form - belt and wraps and I wanted to shake him- I am like FIX YOUR BODY you don't NEED that ****. I pull more and I don't NEED it. but- it's personal preference- I should be happy people are trying I guess LOL- I'm very 'natural' about my lifting. I'll rip blisters to the subdermal before I consider gloves. FTS.
you know- I never really considered it a 'lift' it's just.. you know- pull ups LOL And yeah- once I broke ground on weighted ones- it's fun. I've backed off of weight to develop explosive strength to train for muscle ups- but yeah- weights and pull ups- no question it's good. I never really saw the appeal till I tried myself- never thought about it.Pullups have always been one of my favorite lifts... and when I started doing them weighted I liked them that much more.
Handstand pushups I'm still working on. I can't do them consistently, and have never gotten to where I can do more than one. But it's not far off.
I' a ways from handstand pushups- i have really crappy wrists- but I try to train for it LOL. it would make me happy- also- useful things to do!!!0 -
Im using 5/3/1 and do lots of rows and chins as assistance lifts to deadlifts and bench. Rows and chins are great!
Same for me... it just always struck me as odd that neither were considered a core lift. Maybe I'm showing my naivete here, but the idea that OHP is a core lift but chins aren't seems dumb to me.
deads, squats, bench and chins its a far better set of lifts to build your routine around than is deads, squats, bench and OHP. IMO. Perhaps that's the difference between me (a regular guy trying to get a little strong and look a little better) and guys like rippetoe and wendler who are serious lifters.
*puts on flak jacket for impending ****storm*
.
GOT IT! Nobody competes with rows (and as far as I know they never have). OHP used to be a part of competition, and is otherwise a big part of other lifts that are used in competition (the clean & jerk for instance). As far as I know the row's influence in the clean & jerk is limited right? You don't row the weight, you do an explosive deadlift then clean it to your shoulders?
Anyhow, I figure that is why OHP is more often included as a "big lift" when the row is not.0 -
with you 100%
I don't use straps either in principle- I'm getting to the point where I am starting to think I need a belt. I use straps when I get to a weight I think is pushing it- but I think a belt is more important to me- but I hate using them. I'm pushing 300 and my last big lift I had super ****ty form. there was a guy doing 225 the other day and had for **** form - belt and wraps and I wanted to shake him- I am like FIX YOUR BODY you don't NEED that ****. I pull more and I don't NEED it. but- it's personal preference- I should be happy people are trying I guess LOL- I'm very 'natural' about my lifting. I'll rip blisters to the subdermal before I consider gloves. FTS.
Yeah, agree with you completely. I watched a "Candito" training video and he talked about using straps if you don't even plan on competing. I thought about it and he's right, I have no plan on competing and I've hit my target weight, so anything more than that is just a bonus to me. Not that I'm not trying for more, but I'm just less obsessed about my DL 1RM now. LOL!
I never used a belt but after I hurt my back I changed my mind. The belt serves as like 50% support and 50% mental for me, helps with piece of mind. I definitely only use it when I'm at 80%+ of my 1RM though and there are days where I forget to even use it, like today. LOL! Today I rep'd my training max and totally forgot about the belt. Not the end of the world by any means, but I guess maybe that means it's less of a mental crutch for me these days. I get a kick out of the guys in the gym wearing the ole' super thin Valeo belts when they're curling and crap like that.0 -
I agree about press and push press being 2 different lifts, but a strict OHP is still a compound lift. It hits the delts, traps, and triceps. It also involves the "core" and lower back. Any weakness there will be exposed more so in the strict press than in a bench or push-press.
Love the zombie reference too, I got back into lifting after a way too long hiatus as a way to prepare for The Run For Your Lives 5k.0 -
with you 100%
I don't use straps either in principle- I'm getting to the point where I am starting to think I need a belt. I use straps when I get to a weight I think is pushing it- but I think a belt is more important to me- but I hate using them. I'm pushing 300 and my last big lift I had super ****ty form. there was a guy doing 225 the other day and had for **** form - belt and wraps and I wanted to shake him- I am like FIX YOUR BODY you don't NEED that ****. I pull more and I don't NEED it. but- it's personal preference- I should be happy people are trying I guess LOL- I'm very 'natural' about my lifting. I'll rip blisters to the subdermal before I consider gloves. FTS.
Yeah, agree with you completely. I watched a "Candito" training video and he talked about using straps if you don't even plan on competing. I thought about it and he's right, I have no plan on competing and I've hit my target weight, so anything more than that is just a bonus to me. Not that I'm not trying for more, but I'm just less obsessed about my DL 1RM now. LOL!
I never used a belt but after I hurt my back I changed my mind. The belt serves as like 50% support and 50% mental for me, helps with piece of mind. I definitely only use it when I'm at 80%+ of my 1RM though and there are days where I forget to even use it, like today. LOL! Today I rep'd my training max and totally forgot about the belt. Not the end of the world by any means, but I guess maybe that means it's less of a mental crutch for me these days. I get a kick out of the guys in the gym wearing the ole' super thin Valeo belts when they're curling and crap like that.
Agreed, big time injury with deadlift switch grip is distal biceps tendon. I use straps for heavy and/or AMRAP lifts.
That said, JoRocka is a very outspoken opponent of lifting straps. She thinks we're *kitten* lol 0 -
with you 100%
I don't use straps either in principle- I'm getting to the point where I am starting to think I need a belt. I use straps when I get to a weight I think is pushing it- but I think a belt is more important to me- but I hate using them. I'm pushing 300 and my last big lift I had super ****ty form. there was a guy doing 225 the other day and had for **** form - belt and wraps and I wanted to shake him- I am like FIX YOUR BODY you don't NEED that ****. I pull more and I don't NEED it. but- it's personal preference- I should be happy people are trying I guess LOL- I'm very 'natural' about my lifting. I'll rip blisters to the subdermal before I consider gloves. FTS.
Yeah, agree with you completely. I watched a "Candito" training video and he talked about using straps if you don't even plan on competing. I thought about it and he's right, I have no plan on competing and I've hit my target weight, so anything more than that is just a bonus to me. Not that I'm not trying for more, but I'm just less obsessed about my DL 1RM now. LOL!
I never used a belt but after I hurt my back I changed my mind. The belt serves as like 50% support and 50% mental for me, helps with piece of mind. I definitely only use it when I'm at 80%+ of my 1RM though and there are days where I forget to even use it, like today. LOL! Today I rep'd my training max and totally forgot about the belt. Not the end of the world by any means, but I guess maybe that means it's less of a mental crutch for me these days. I get a kick out of the guys in the gym wearing the ole' super thin Valeo belts when they're curling and crap like that.
Straps can be useful though, a missed pull is usually due to grip, agreed? that being the case, you could overload weight by using straps to keep progressing on weight when your grip begins to fail.0 -
not everyone...
just you
That being said- the last few times I've 1 or 80/90 1 RPM I have used straps- but i'ts usually on those single lifts. I don't care for them- but yes- they certainly serve a function- and are no where near the douchtastic level usage of batting gloves.
edit- in other news- I have had 8 hrs to do ONE small task and thanks to MFP- I haven't finished it. I suck. LOL0 -
with you 100%
I don't use straps either in principle- I'm getting to the point where I am starting to think I need a belt. I use straps when I get to a weight I think is pushing it- but I think a belt is more important to me- but I hate using them. I'm pushing 300 and my last big lift I had super ****ty form. there was a guy doing 225 the other day and had for **** form - belt and wraps and I wanted to shake him- I am like FIX YOUR BODY you don't NEED that ****. I pull more and I don't NEED it. but- it's personal preference- I should be happy people are trying I guess LOL- I'm very 'natural' about my lifting. I'll rip blisters to the subdermal before I consider gloves. FTS.
Yeah, agree with you completely. I watched a "Candito" training video and he talked about using straps if you don't even plan on competing. I thought about it and he's right, I have no plan on competing and I've hit my target weight, so anything more than that is just a bonus to me. Not that I'm not trying for more, but I'm just less obsessed about my DL 1RM now. LOL!
I never used a belt but after I hurt my back I changed my mind. The belt serves as like 50% support and 50% mental for me, helps with piece of mind. I definitely only use it when I'm at 80%+ of my 1RM though and there are days where I forget to even use it, like today. LOL! Today I rep'd my training max and totally forgot about the belt. Not the end of the world by any means, but I guess maybe that means it's less of a mental crutch for me these days. I get a kick out of the guys in the gym wearing the ole' super thin Valeo belts when they're curling and crap like that.
Agreed, big time injury with deadlift switch grip is distal biceps tendon. I use straps for heavy and/or AMRAP lifts.
That said, JoRocka is a very outspoken opponent of lifting straps. She thinks we're *kitten* lol
I am still generally an opponent of lifting straps. From what I read people switch to them too soon in their training and they become a crutch instead of a tool. I mean hell, I'm at 410lbs on my DL and I'm just now using them and I don't NEED to use them it's just a choice because I'm getting old, don't care to take any more of a break from lifting, but don't want to exaggerate what I have going on.
Edit: I've also made the mistake of not rotating my over/under hand from cycle-to-cycle which is why I'm guessing that I've developed this issue. Although I will say since I stopped curling, switched to double-overhand with straps on the heavier sets it is going away. I can see myself going back to a mixed grip in the future but being smarter about rotating my grip.0 -
I am still generally an opponent of lifting straps. From what I read people switch to them too soon in their training and they become a crutch instead of a tool. I mean hell, I'm at 410lbs on my DL and I'm just now using them and I don't NEED to use them it's just a choice because I'm getting old, don't care to take any more of a break from lifting, but don't want to exaggerate what I have going on.
Edit: I've also made the mistake of not rotating my over/under hand from cycle-to-cycle which is why I'm guessing that I've developed this issue. Although I will say since I stopped curling, switched to double-overhand with straps on the heavier sets it is going away. I can see myself going back to a mixed grip in the future but being smarter about rotating my grip.
I went to them too soon. I thought grip strength was limiting how much I could pull, which it was, but using straps allowed me to "progress" faster than my form could handle.
There's a difference between pulling big weight and pulling weight correctly. Straps allowed me to learn that the hard way.0 -
You need to rotate your grip? Wow, every day I realize more and more how little I know about lifting and how much there is to learn. Is there a book or website that talks about or explains all this to you? I'm talking about everything from the lifts, belts, gloves, etc...0
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I am still generally an opponent of lifting straps. From what I read people switch to them too soon in their training and they become a crutch instead of a tool. I mean hell, I'm at 410lbs on my DL and I'm just now using them and I don't NEED to use them it's just a choice because I'm getting old, don't care to take any more of a break from lifting, but don't want to exaggerate what I have going on.
Edit: I've also made the mistake of not rotating my over/under hand from cycle-to-cycle which is why I'm guessing that I've developed this issue. Although I will say since I stopped curling, switched to double-overhand with straps on the heavier sets it is going away. I can see myself going back to a mixed grip in the future but being smarter about rotating my grip.
I went to them too soon. I thought grip strength was limiting how much I could pull, which it was, but using straps allowed me to "progress" faster than my form could handle.
There's a difference between pulling big weight and pulling weight correctly. Straps allowed me to learn that the hard way.
I think it was Chad Wesley Smith from Juggernaut Training System that said, "if your grip isn't strong enough to hold the weight, then your body isn't ready to lift it yet." Generally I would agree with him.You need to rotate your grip? Wow, every day I realize more and more how little I know about lifting and how much there is to learn. Is there a book or website that talks about or explains all this to you? I'm talking about everything from the lifts, belts, gloves, etc...
If you deadlift with a mixed grip you should probably switch every so often. It's easier with some of the better programs because they have shorter cycles, 5/3/1 & Cube you can switch every 4th week or new training cycle, Westside after every Pendulum, etc. StrongLifts... not really sure, maybe every two weeks you could switch?0 -
I don't switch- and I don't over hand. i'm sure I'll pop my right bicep one day- but my left wrist is crooked- underhand ANYTHING is a huge pain.
it's straight down 'angle'- so it might not be too tragic for me- I should give it a whirl tonight. I just hate the thought of starting lower (because I know I'll have to just to adjust) LOL
but yes- alternating- is good.
I couldn't double overhand- I'd die. I was terrible with double overhand.0
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