PALEO: pros, cons and whatever else you may think?

Acg67

You seem to be entirely confused as to how this lifestyle works. Is pork Paleo? Yes. Is salt Paleo? Yes. Therefore, pork soaked in salt is Paleo. Simple as that.

Is fructose paleo? Yes. Is glucose paleo? Yes. Therefore, HFCS is paleo. got it

How is that not bacon? And where are you seeing added chemicals?

Are you familiar with what a chemical is?

jonnythan

I think that's why folks subscribe to diets (and a diet is a diet, whatever you're consistently eating at any given time is your diet) in order to learn moderation. People throw that moderation word around like it's easy peasy... are YOU here because you practiced moderation in all things? Probably not. Some people need a hand in understanding what it means to be moderate. Plans help some people do that. And hopefully as they go along, they learn the rest of this stuff.

And I thought bacon, at its root, is a salt cured meat that may or may not be smoked? Salt is used as a preservative, but it is also completely natural. Not healthy outside the confines of MODERATION, but still, not something I'd call a chemical either.

I'm sure I'm wrong about that though.

Carry on.

NaCl not a chemical? Hello cognitive dissonance

Bacon is cured (usually a mix of salt, sugar, sodium nitrate, aromatics) pork belly that has been smoked, unsmoked cured pork belly that has been air dried is pancetta

Sorry, should have stated that more clearly: YES bacon you buy in the supermarket most certainly is loaded with chemicals. My thought process began way back in the process where folks used to salt cure their food (and still do so in this area) so it would last the winter, like canning fruits and veggies. I did not state it that way, though. My apologies.

My thought is that you can have natural bacon, just cure it yourself, or find someone who does. Using salt. Or sugar, if that's your thing. Or both. My logic was that, as with everything, bacon didn't start out as a dripping chemical sponge it has become And I do love me some chemical bacon from time to time.

"Dripping chemical sponge" is kind of ridiculous.

But, besides, Paleolithic man didn't soak his pork belly in salt in a fridge for a week and then smoke it. The entire idea of bacon being "Paleolithic" is silly.

You seem to be entirely confused as to how this lifestyle works. Is pork Paleo? Yes. Is salt Paleo? Yes. Therefore, pork soaked in salt is Paleo. Simple as that.

Paleolithic men didn't do anything to cook their foods other than cooking with a fire; that doesn't mean doing anything other than using a fire isn't Paleo. You're taking the argument to ridiculous lengths again.

Paleo approved bacon wouldn't be cured, preserved, smoked, etc. in anything but Paleo-approved ingredients, so yes, I'd say that most people would say that Paleo approved bacon ISN'T processed.

You're literally wrong. This statement is factualy wrong, logically wrong, pragmatically wrong, and vernacularly (is that a word?) wrong.

Bacon is pork belly that has been soaked for an extended period of time in a preservative solution. There is no definition of the word processing for which this is not processing.

And I guarantee you that Paleolithic people didn't soak their pork belly in preservatives and then smoke it.

I've stated MANY times that "durr caveman wouldn't have eaten that" is NOT the reason behind our food choices; again, you're getting bogged down in the caveman thing rather than looking at the science we base our choices on. I doubt you could find a single person who follows Paleo who says that the only reason they do it is because cavemen did; most would point to the fact that there IS some science to show these foods could be unhealthy. You CAN'T say they're perfectly healthy foods because there's science that shows they're bad, some that shows it could be bad, and yes, some that shows they're fine. That doesn't make them fine - that makes them undecided. We chose not to eat them; you choose (presumably) to eat them. That doesn't make your lifestyle any better than mine because you decide if it's not proven bad then it's healthy. What about the reverse - if it's not proven healthy then it's bad? Both are wrong in my opinion, but that's exactly the kind of logic you're arguing here.

The appeal to science is specious. This didn't start with someone excluding a bunch of foods from their diet because science said they're bad, followed by that person noticing "hey this stuff we're left with is how Paleolithic people ate!" It was the other way: it was someone deciding that a "Paleolithic" diet is good, forming a list of good and bad foods, and then trying to find science to support it. Problem is that it's not even how Paleolithic people ate.

http://robbwolf.com/2011/05/20/the-path-to-culinary-bliss-home-cured-bacon/

Oh look, a way of making bacon that doesn't include ANYTHING that isn't Paleo approved! Gosh, you must feel silly now for thinking it didn't exist? Especially since it's just one of MANY.

That's not bacon anyways and don't Paleo zealots disapprove of added chemicals to foods?

How is that not bacon? And where are you seeing added chemicals?

And just to be clear, while I fully say that Renee's dressing isn't Paleo, the only non-Paleo ingredient is the canola oil (other than possibly xantham gum because I fully admit to not being entirely sure what that is) so you can see that I've still made the best of a bad choice by choosing a dressing that otherwise includes only approved ingredients.

The canola oil is the only part with calories. That dressing is as un-Paleo, un-Primal as you can get.

If you want to eat it, eat it! But be honest about it, and don't try to dress it up as anything but a SAD food.

Exactly what are you arguing here? I stated flat out that Renee's dressing isn't Paleo. Plus, I don't count calories as somehow superior to everything else; just because it's the highest calorie ingredient doesn't make my statement that it's the only non-Paleo approved ingredient any less true.

A salad where 90% of the calories are non Paleo is 10% Paleo.

Mr_Knight

Sorry, should have stated that more clearly: YES bacon you buy in the supermarket most certainly is loaded with chemicals. My thought process began way back in the process where folks used to salt cure their food (and still do so in this area) so it would last the winter, like canning fruits and veggies. I did not state it that way, though. My apologies.

You're still not getting it.

Pigs are a farm animal, not a game animal. Nothing that comes from a pig - cured or not - is "clean" or paleo. Curing of meat is a post-agricultural technology, and therefore all cured meat is not "clean" by definition - it doesn't matter who cured the bacon or how. And again - for reference - I am a person who actually DOES raise his own pork and cure his own bacon.

if you want to eat that stuff, it's totally cool, I love it too. But there is no logical definition of "clean" that can allow pork and bacon but exclude bread and pasta.

Mr_Knight

[You seem to be entirely confused as to how this lifestyle works. Is pork Paleo?

No, it is not. Pork is absolutely not paleo, it is a FARMED, domesticated animal.

It is non-paleo by definition.

Therefore, by your definition, all products deriving from it are also non-paleo.

SStruthers13

I'm not going to do any diet that does not involve daily chocolate. Now, if I can smear chocolate syrup on a mastodon rump I'll be all over that diet!

darkangel45422

You know what's really funny? People who aren't Paleo/Primal/etc. trying to tell people who are how their own lifestyle works. Instead of holding yourselves up as experts who somehow know more about these plans than the people actually on them or the ones who started them, maybe realize you're not perfect and all knowing. Trying to argue a food doesn't fit on the Paleo plan when it's clearly stated as fitting is just ridiculous.

jonnythan

You know what's really funny? People who aren't Paleo/Primal/etc. trying to tell people who are how their own lifestyle works. Instead of holding yourselves up as experts who somehow know more about these plans than the people actually on them or the ones who started them, maybe realize you're not perfect and all knowing. Trying to argue a food doesn't fit on the Paleo plan when it's clearly stated as fitting is just ridiculous.

It would probably be best if it changed its name from paleo, because nothing about it is paleo.

mmapags

Any diet that has a name is silly.

Any diet that strictly prohibits certain foods is silly.

Any diet that does both of these is double-silly.

By all means focus your diet on lean meats and veggies. But don't listen to what other people tell you are acceptable foods and unacceptable foods. Focus on your nutrients and eat things you enjoy.

Said on page 1 and still true. Best post of the thread.

Sabine_Stroehm

You know what's really funny? People who aren't Paleo/Primal/etc. trying to tell people who are how their own lifestyle works. Instead of holding yourselves up as experts who somehow know more about these plans than the people actually on them or the ones who started them, maybe realize you're not perfect and all knowing. Trying to argue a food doesn't fit on the Paleo plan when it's clearly stated as fitting is just ridiculous.

It would probably be best if it changed its name from paleo, because nothing about it is paleo.

If it changed its name you'd still be peeing yourself because "diets with names are silly" says the zealot.

mmapags

You know what's really funny? People who aren't Paleo/Primal/etc. trying to tell people who are how their own lifestyle works. Instead of holding yourselves up as experts who somehow know more about these plans than the people actually on them or the ones who started them, maybe realize you're not perfect and all knowing. Trying to argue a food doesn't fit on the Paleo plan when it's clearly stated as fitting is just ridiculous.

Pot, meet kettle.

And, a food is clearly stated as fitting Paleo by who? The guy who wrote the book? Look up clueless in the dictionary and see if there is a picture that looks familiar to you.

darkangel45422

You know what's really funny? People who aren't Paleo/Primal/etc. trying to tell people who are how their own lifestyle works. Instead of holding yourselves up as experts who somehow know more about these plans than the people actually on them or the ones who started them, maybe realize you're not perfect and all knowing. Trying to argue a food doesn't fit on the Paleo plan when it's clearly stated as fitting is just ridiculous.

Pot, meet kettle.

And, a food is clearly stated as fitting Paleo by who? The guy who wrote the book? Look up clueless in the dictionary and see if there is a picture that looks familiar to you.

Yes, generally the person who invented the lifestyle gets to decide what fits that lifestyle. So for example, I personally follow Primal - in that case, Mark Sisson would get to decide what constitutes a Primal food because he invented it. Do I have to agree with everything he says? No. But I do have to agree that when he says something is or isn't Primal, that he's right because he invented it and thus gets to decide everything about it.

If thinking the person who invented an idea gets to say what that idea includes is clueless, then I suggest you start learning what actual words mean, cause I don't think clueless means what you think it does.

Mr_Knight

So for example, I personally follow Primal - in that case, Mark Sisson would get to decide what constitutes a Primal food because he invented it.

You are following the "logic" of a guy who walks the whole-foods talk by pushing supplements on his flock?

Oh dear.

Did you know his diet now has him taking Human Growth Hormone? All those lovely pictures of him on his website aren't from eating primal or doing sprints - the guy is Lance Armstrong-ing himself.

darkangel45422

So for example, I personally follow Primal - in that case, Mark Sisson would get to decide what constitutes a Primal food because he invented it.

You are following the "logic" of a guy who walks the whole-foods talk by pushing supplements on his flock?

Oh dear.

Did you know his diet now has him taking Human Growth Hormone? All those lovely pictures of him on his website aren't from eating primal or doing sprints - the guy is Lance Armstrong-ing himself.

Just because he sells something doesn't mean he's pushing it; some of his older articles contained ads to his stuff, and he still does post when he has a new book our or Primal convention, but 95% of the time I don't even notice or remember that he sells anything. A lot of what he talks about makes sense, and I appreciate that he doesn't expect people to just listen to him, but rather posts food for thought ideas and provides links to studies and articles to make us think about our own approach to health. Generally I don't appreciate anything done to just make money but considering the blog gives away all the information in his books (and then some) for free, I feel a lot better about reading his site because I DON'T feel at all like he's pushing things on me. Sure, he takes supplements and sometimes does shakes, etc. I personally don't like shakes because I'd rather eat whole foods but that's just me.

If he does take HGH then he's not really following his own plan, and that's unfortunate. Doesn't really affect the Primal Blueprint at all.

You're making a straw man argument here, by the way; attacking Sisson instead of the plan itself.

Mr_Knight

If he does take HGH then he's not really following his own plan, and that's unfortunate. Doesn't really affect the Primal Blueprint at all.

Oh dear.

Well, you enjoy yourself then. Like i told you before, MFP will be here for you when you lose this faith, too.

Sabine_Stroehm

So for example, I personally follow Primal - in that case, Mark Sisson would get to decide what constitutes a Primal food because he invented it.

You are following the "logic" of a guy who walks the whole-foods talk by pushing supplements on his flock?

Oh dear.

Did you know his diet now has him taking Human Growth Hormone? All those lovely pictures of him on his website aren't from eating primal or doing sprints - the guy is Lance Armstrong-ing himself.

That blows. And alas, so many diets (including iifym) are here for MONEY. Does what they profer work? I guess time will tell.

darkangel45422

If he does take HGH then he's not really following his own plan, and that's unfortunate. Doesn't really affect the Primal Blueprint at all.

Oh dear.

Well, you enjoy yourself then. Like i told you before, MFP will be here for you when you lose this faith, too.

Honestly, you just make yourself seem ignorant and like a jerk when you say things like this. Just because I can separate a plan from its creator and not immediately assume a personal flaw in the man equals a flaw in the plan doesn't somehow make me a blind follower. I've done my research, I take the parts of the Primal Blueprint that I like and leave the ones I don't.

And, just to momentarily give into your ridiculousness, religion requires accepting all rules as law; breaking one is a sin. Lifestyle plans like this one full out tell you to take what you like and leave the rest, tweaking it to fit you. So all of your little jabs about equating Paleo/Primal with a religion are flawed at their very foundation. I think you'll find that those who follow these plans are probably a lot more intelligent and well researched on their lifestyles and the reasons behind it than the bulk of people on weight loss plans who regurgitate ideas about calories in calories out and everything in moderation.

I've yet to hear most of you naysayers say a single intelligent thing about why this lifestyle doesn't work, and instead focus on extremely fringe aspects of the plan such as whether or not Mark Sisson uses HGH or if pork should be considered Paleo. If you don't think Paleo/Primal/etc. works, then say so and explain why. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut - I believe there's an old adage that says if you can't say something nice (and in this case I'll expand that to include intelligent, on topic and relevant) then don't say anything at all.

jonnythan

You know what's really funny? People who aren't Paleo/Primal/etc. trying to tell people who are how their own lifestyle works. Instead of holding yourselves up as experts who somehow know more about these plans than the people actually on them or the ones who started them, maybe realize you're not perfect and all knowing. Trying to argue a food doesn't fit on the Paleo plan when it's clearly stated as fitting is just ridiculous.

It would probably be best if it changed its name from paleo, because nothing about it is paleo.

If it changed its name you'd still be peeing yourself because "diets with names are silly" says the zealot.

Yup. The crazy zealot with his absurd fringe belief that people should eat the foods that make them happy and not avoid foods they love because some "expert" says they're unclean. How insane.

GingerLolita

I like the emphasis on unprocessed foods, but I think it's pretty unbalanced and unsustainable for most people, as is any diet that eliminates or severely restricts a group of foods.

thefragile7393

Oddly most people seem to have forgotten its a way of life....not a "diet" per se. Just like eating clean isn't a diet. Just a way of eating. Atkins Diet, South Beach...whatever. THere are some really odd people around here that are so anti or pro something they just can't see anything past their own opinion. Sad. If it works for someone who cares? If it does not work for you...move on. People claim all sorts of things but interestingly things seem to work for at least some people.

jonnythan

If he does take HGH then he's not really following his own plan, and that's unfortunate. Doesn't really affect the Primal Blueprint at all.

Oh dear.

Well, you enjoy yourself then. Like i told you before, MFP will be here for you when you lose this faith, too.

Honestly, you just make yourself seem ignorant and like a jerk when you say things like this. Just because I can separate a plan from its creator and not immediately assume a personal flaw in the man equals a flaw in the plan doesn't somehow make me a blind follower. I've done my research, I take the parts of the Primal Blueprint that I like and leave the ones I don't.

And, just to momentarily give into your ridiculousness, religion requires accepting all rules as law; breaking one is a sin. Lifestyle plans like this one full out tell you to take what you like and leave the rest, tweaking it to fit you. So all of your little jabs about equating Paleo/Primal with a religion are flawed at their very foundation. I think you'll find that those who follow these plans are probably a lot more intelligent and well researched on their lifestyles and the reasons behind it than the bulk of people on weight loss plans who regurgitate ideas about calories in calories out and everything in moderation.

I've yet to hear most of you naysayers say a single intelligent thing about why this lifestyle doesn't work, and instead focus on extremely fringe aspects of the plan such as whether or not Mark Sisson uses HGH or if pork should be considered Paleo. If you don't think Paleo/Primal/etc. works, then say so and explain why. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut - I believe there's an old adage that says if you can't say something nice (and in this case I'll expand that to include intelligent, on topic and relevant) then don't say anything at all.

The main criticism isn't that it doesn't work. It's that the diet is unnecessarily restrictive for really dumb reasons.

Also... keep your mouth shut if you don't like paleo? In a thread where the OP asked for opinions on paleo?

kkerri

If he does take HGH then he's not really following his own plan, and that's unfortunate. Doesn't really affect the Primal Blueprint at all.

Oh dear.

Well, you enjoy yourself then. Like i told you before, MFP will be here for you when you lose this faith, too.

Honestly, you just make yourself seem ignorant and like a jerk when you say things like this. Just because I can separate a plan from its creator and not immediately assume a personal flaw in the man equals a flaw in the plan doesn't somehow make me a blind follower. I've done my research, I take the parts of the Primal Blueprint that I like and leave the ones I don't.

And, just to momentarily give into your ridiculousness, religion requires accepting all rules as law; breaking one is a sin. Lifestyle plans like this one full out tell you to take what you like and leave the rest, tweaking it to fit you. So all of your little jabs about equating Paleo/Primal with a religion are flawed at their very foundation. I think you'll find that those who follow these plans are probably a lot more intelligent and well researched on their lifestyles and the reasons behind it than the bulk of people on weight loss plans who regurgitate ideas about calories in calories out and everything in moderation.

I've yet to hear most of you naysayers say a single intelligent thing about why this lifestyle doesn't work, and instead focus on extremely fringe aspects of the plan such as whether or not Mark Sisson uses HGH or if pork should be considered Paleo. If you don't think Paleo/Primal/etc. works, then say so and explain why. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut - I believe there's an old adage that says if you can't say something nice (and in this case I'll expand that to include intelligent, on topic and relevant) then don't say anything at all.

The main criticism isn't that it doesn't work. It's that the diet is unnecessarily restrictive for really dumb reasons.

Also... keep your mouth shut if you don't like paleo? In a thread where the OP asked for opinions on paleo?

What are your thoughts on the McDougall plan? It's restrictive, too, but would you be okay with that b/c it's not for "dumb reasons" and no cavemen are involved?

jonnythan

If he does take HGH then he's not really following his own plan, and that's unfortunate. Doesn't really affect the Primal Blueprint at all.

Oh dear.

Well, you enjoy yourself then. Like i told you before, MFP will be here for you when you lose this faith, too.

Honestly, you just make yourself seem ignorant and like a jerk when you say things like this. Just because I can separate a plan from its creator and not immediately assume a personal flaw in the man equals a flaw in the plan doesn't somehow make me a blind follower. I've done my research, I take the parts of the Primal Blueprint that I like and leave the ones I don't.

And, just to momentarily give into your ridiculousness, religion requires accepting all rules as law; breaking one is a sin. Lifestyle plans like this one full out tell you to take what you like and leave the rest, tweaking it to fit you. So all of your little jabs about equating Paleo/Primal with a religion are flawed at their very foundation. I think you'll find that those who follow these plans are probably a lot more intelligent and well researched on their lifestyles and the reasons behind it than the bulk of people on weight loss plans who regurgitate ideas about calories in calories out and everything in moderation.

I've yet to hear most of you naysayers say a single intelligent thing about why this lifestyle doesn't work, and instead focus on extremely fringe aspects of the plan such as whether or not Mark Sisson uses HGH or if pork should be considered Paleo. If you don't think Paleo/Primal/etc. works, then say so and explain why. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut - I believe there's an old adage that says if you can't say something nice (and in this case I'll expand that to include intelligent, on topic and relevant) then don't say anything at all.

The main criticism isn't that it doesn't work. It's that the diet is unnecessarily restrictive for really dumb reasons.

Also... keep your mouth shut if you don't like paleo? In a thread where the OP asked for opinions on paleo?

What are your thoughts on the McDougall plan? It's restrictive, too, but would you be okay with that b/c it's not for "dumb reasons" and no cavemen are involved?

Never heard of it. Summarize?

kkerri

Written by a doctor and internist - been around for a long, long time. Low-fat vegan diet to reduce cholesterol and degenerative diseases - focuses on starches such as potatoes, rice, and corn and no animal products or fats. It's the anti-Paleo.

:-)

jonnythan

I copied this from the McDougall site:

The exclusion of animal foods, including red meat, poultry, dairy products, eggs, and fish – all of which provide toxic levels of fat, cholesterol, protein and, very often, infectious agents and harmful chemicals.The exclusion of all oils including olive oil, safflower oil, and corn oil. Oils are nothing more than liquid fats that increase obesity, which in turn, depresses immune function and contributes to the most common chronic diseases.


Yes he same criticism applies. Unnecessarily restrictive for dumb reasons. Poultry contains toxic levels of fat and protein. Got it. Thanks McDougall.

This plan appears geared around selling residential programs and books. Of course all the silly restrictive diets with names are really just marketing efforts trying to sell something.

3dogsrunning

Written by a doctor and internist - been around for a long, long time. Low-fat vegan diet to reduce cholesterol and degenerative diseases - focuses on starches such as potatoes, rice, and corn and no animal products or fats. It's the anti-Paleo.

:-)

Paleo was created, written, whatever, by a doctor as well.

"Loren Cordain is an American scientist who specializes in fields of nutrition and exercise physiology."

kkerri

Eh, I like McDougall and his program has been run in major hospitals for the past 20 years. Why shouldn't he make a buck? I don't work for free either.

homesweeths

Written by a doctor and internist - been around for a long, long time. Low-fat vegan diet to reduce cholesterol and degenerative diseases - focuses on starches such as potatoes, rice, and corn and no animal products or fats. It's the anti-Paleo.

:-)

Tried it. Was constantly hungry. Paleo/primal eating has changed the way my appetite works; I'm never hungry these days, and I feel full and satisfied with just one helping at meals. I don't even need to snack. It's wonderful not to be ruled by food and cravings.

jonnythan

Eh, I like McDougall and his program has been run in major hospitals for the past 20 years. Why shouldn't he make a buck? I don't work for free either.

I don't care if he makes money off it. However, the profit motive tends to undermine the claims.

When someone is trying to sell you a thing, you can't simply trust them to tell you the truth and the whole truth.

kkerri

Written by a doctor and internist - been around for a long, long time. Low-fat vegan diet to reduce cholesterol and degenerative diseases - focuses on starches such as potatoes, rice, and corn and no animal products or fats. It's the anti-Paleo.

:-)

Paleo was created, written, whatever, by a doctor as well.

"Loren Cordain is an American scientist who specializes in fields of nutrition and exercise physiology."

I did not know that. I just googled Loren Cordain and Paleo and Wikipedia said that McDougall has questioned the accuracy of the science behind it.

I think this whole debate has illustrated nothing other than that there is more than one way to skin a cat. And, for every point, there is a counterpoint, and on and on ad nauseam.

3dogsrunning

Written by a doctor and internist - been around for a long, long time. Low-fat vegan diet to reduce cholesterol and degenerative diseases - focuses on starches such as potatoes, rice, and corn and no animal products or fats. It's the anti-Paleo.

:-)

Paleo was created, written, whatever, by a doctor as well.

"Loren Cordain is an American scientist who specializes in fields of nutrition and exercise physiology."

I did not know that. I just googled Loren Cordain and Paleo and Wikipedia said that McDougall has questioned the accuracy of the science behind it.

I think this whole debate has illustrated nothing other than that there is more than one way to skin a cat. And, for every point, there is a counterpoint, and on and on ad nauseam.

That was kinda my point.