Ketosis

yarwell

But doesn't that mean once the food is digested bf will be used up? Overnight when I don't eat for example? Normally the body would turn to glycogen stores wouldn't it?

yes, overnight you will be taking fuel back out of storage - both fat and glycogen. Low carb people have active glycogen storage too.

Roughly speaking you burn what you eat, so a low carb eater will tend to be using more fat and have a lower respiratory quotient (RQ) than a carb eater. 0.72 vs 0.90 for example.

The point is that if you ate 300 grams of fat and no carbs the 2700 calories could supply all your needs (and some) and you would be in ketosis but you don't know that the ketones are produced from fat reserves - just that they come from fat.

On the other hand you could eat or drink 900 calories a day, do a lot of exercise and be in ketosis on account of having to use fat stores to provide your calorie needs.

whierd

I would suggest refraining from posting on main forums regarding any low carb lifestyle change. Please join Keto or Low carb forums for advice from those who have experience in this area.

Keto for 8 months and have lost over 50 inches and 100lbs!

Yeah, much better to drink the koolaide than to have honest dialogue.

paintlisapurple

Question: What is a "normal" amount of carbs anyway?
Another Question: If someone eats very low carb and loses weight, won't that weight come right back once resuming a "normal" amount of carb intake?

danimalkeys

Question: What is a "normal" amount of carbs anyway?
Another Question: If someone eats very low carb and loses weight, won't that weight come right back once resuming a "normal" amount of carb intake?

I was eating 150/250g per day. Not sure how normal that is.

Why would it? You don't say "ok, I hit my goal weight, I can eat what I want again!" and start binging on pasta. That's how people who lose weight put it back on, they don't adopt their changes as lifestyle changes. It doesn't matter what diet plan you use, if you go back to your old eating habits, there's a good chance you'll put the weight back on. If you want to go back to eating more carbs, then you gradually ramp it up and monitor your weight and figure out where your maintenance level is.

whierd

Question: What is a "normal" amount of carbs anyway?
Another Question: If someone eats very low carb and loses weight, won't that weight come right back once resuming a "normal" amount of carb intake?

They will gain some water weight.

Briargrey

I did full-on Atkins back in 2002-2003 and lost 86 pounds and plateaued for about 6 months before gradually gaining everything back over the last decade (plus 5!). I'm not saying it can't work for you, because it can, but the principle is the same as any other weight loss scenario - you have to eat less than you burn. Being very large (286 pounds) and 5'1" helped me for the first 86 pounds - I didn't have to think about modifying my diet. When it 'stopped working' for me, I got frustrated, and nothing seemed to work -- well duh, I'd dropped weight so now my maintenance calorie level was what my prior 'lose weight' level was, and I didn't recognize it. I was 'sold' the bill of goods that I could eat bacon and cheese and such and if I just cut out those pesky carbs, I'd be so full and eat so few calories that I'd rock that weight loss down to Electric Avenue or something.

Right.

I didn't want to face the facts that I had to reduce calories more. Also, I didn't feel that great under ketosis and such - I was depriving myself of foods, and that felt terrible, because if I 'gave in' and had one of those forbidden foods or too much of them, then I knew I'd just 'blown' it.

Personally, I feel that it is much healthier to just watch what you eat and how much you eat and log everything and deny yourself nothing, then it is to try to trick your mind and body into some special snowflake way of losing weight (Atkins, raspberry ketones, green tea, Jenny Craig, insert 'diet' here). However, to each their own - if you can SUSTAIN it and not get down and it still has all the nutrients you need, then I suppose go for it.

EddieHaskell97

Wow! So much misinformation flying around, and so few who've actually talked to a doctor about it.

This is not the place to be asking. Talk to you doctor, or at least a dietitian. The peanut gallery here is very much hit or miss. From the looks of this thread, "broad side of a barn" and "Stormtrooper aim" come to mind.

mrdexter1

Wow! So much misinformation flying around, and so few who've actually talked to a doctor about it.

This is not the place to be asking. Talk to you doctor, or at least a dietitian. The peanut gallery here is very much hit or miss. From the looks of this thread, "broad side of a barn" and "Stormtrooper aim" come to mind.

well i was one of those to see a doctor, and she was intrigued, full of questions and happy to help me as i had put so much effort in to changing things...

Obviously its not necessary to be in ketosis to lose weight but there is a big but...

we dont get hungry, we lose that craving for carbs and we are all aware if we eat over on carbs we throw ourselves out of keto and feel rough until back in and thats a hell of an incentive not to fall off the wagon. We are also aware we have to eat our daily cal allowance or training becomes physically tiresome - its also a very easy diet to follow and there is less muscle loss if its managed properly.

I have no idea why it works, but it really is silly for those not using it or not having tried it post on here in such an emotive negative manner with no reasoning behind their argument - whats your problem ????

As for the water loss and addition with carbs - we all know what to expect and how to manage it and on a personal note i like the flat look with no glycogen stored and i like the filled look after a planned necessary carb intake , but most of all i like the ease and convenience of everything and the regular weight loss -

isnt that what we re here for !!!

Mr_Knight

we dont get hungry, we lose that craving for carbs and we are all aware if we eat over on carbs we throw ourselves out of keto and feel rough until back in and thats a hell of an incentive not to fall off the wagon. We are also aware we have to eat our daily cal allowance or training becomes physically tiresome - its also a very easy diet to follow and there is less muscle loss if its managed properly.

I have to say, this is not true.

It may be true for *you* but the use of "we" is not appropriate. I did it for a year, and it was a constant struggle to avoid over-eating, and I constantly felt in a state of deprivation. It also became virtually impossible to have an active lifestyle, due to never-ending fatigue. All that suffering ended for me by getting out of low carb.

Worst of all, the weight I did lose had an unacceptably high proportion of lean body mass, so it wasn't even great fat loss.

So there is no "we" in this type of diet. At the end of the day, it is just another diet, and how well it works depends on the individual.

thmgoodw

Another Question: If someone eats very low carb and loses weight, won't that weight come right back once resuming a "normal" amount of carb intake?

As another poster commented, some water weight will return. Due to glycogen depletion and lack of holding on to sugar, one in ketosis will certainly be carrying out less weight than they would if they had a higher carb intake. For me, that is ~4-5 pounds. But again, that is just water weight, not fat gain or anything like that.

whierd

Wow! So much misinformation flying around, and so few who've actually talked to a doctor about it.

This is not the place to be asking. Talk to you doctor, or at least a dietitian. The peanut gallery here is very much hit or miss. From the looks of this thread, "broad side of a barn" and "Stormtrooper aim" come to mind.

Nice noncommittal post addressing no one and using hypocracy.

extra_medium

I have no idea why it works, but it really is silly for those not using it or not having tried it post on here in such an emotive negative manner with no reasoning behind their argument - whats your problem ????

I haven't seen too much negativity, just people saying the only way to lose body fat is to use more calories than you consume consistently over a period of time. You can do this effectively on an Atkins/low carb type diet, or you can do it with a "normal" diet.

The only time I see people get really negative about these subjects is when it's implied that no one in the past few centuries of humankind could ever have lost weight or even been remotely healthy because they ate sugar, carbs and processed grain-poison.

gypsyrose64

I'm going to preface my post with a couple of pertinent facts.

1) I'm ~42% BF and weigh 205 lbs right now. (can't compare to someone already fit)
2) I'm insulin resistant and do not process carbs/sugar appropriately (diagnosed)
3) I do not currently do cardio (back problems).

Here is what my heart doctor told me. If my weight stalls, do less than 30g NET CARBS per day for a couple weeks and then have a re-feed weekend where I eat somewhere between 100-150g, then drop them back down for another two weeks. In addition to that, I'm restricting calories to ~1200 /day. This was supported by my general doctor as well.

First time it took a week to hit ketosis (using those test strips). Now it takes me ~3 days to get back after falling off the wagon.

Cardio doc said you have to drink tons of water while in it, because you naturally dehydrate. The water keeps the kidneys from stressing out. I also take potassium supplement or high potassium/magnesium foods to offset the extra pee'ing that goes on. Ketosis will pull glycogen from your muscles after the carbs you eat are burned up. When I refeed, I gain up to 3 lbs water and then it goes back down.

From what I understand, your body won't go after body fat for energy until it's utilized carbs/fat eaten and drained the glycogen stores. I was also told not to exercise in ketosis unless I eat some additional carbs prior to exercise, or I might face plant. I haven't tested that theory, but that was the advice given to me(even doctors are guessing sometimes).

Bottom line (for me), I have eaten at a deficit for over a year, and stalled for several months. I started this carb cycling and have shed 8 lbs in one month. No, it's not all water, because I took diuretics prior to that (for edema) and weight wasn't budging. I've also lost about 3 inches this month from the waist and the edema is gone.

As for you running in keto or maintaining your weight, I would suggest researching and posting in some keto forums for more info. It won't hurt you to try it, but it requires pre-planning meals, and lots of time in the kitchen learning to cook things the "low carb" way. I personally don't have the discipline to stay in ketosis nonstop, but the lower I get my net carbs (under 100g), the more progress I have.

Mr_Knight

From what I understand, your body won't go after body fat for energy until it's utilized carbs/fat eaten and drained the glycogen stores.

That's not correct. You do not have to drain the glycogen stores before the body metabolizes fat stores.

mrdexter1

we dont get hungry, we lose that craving for carbs and we are all aware if we eat over on carbs we throw ourselves out of keto and feel rough until back in and thats a hell of an incentive not to fall off the wagon. We are also aware we have to eat our daily cal allowance or training becomes physically tiresome - its also a very easy diet to follow and there is less muscle loss if its managed properly.

I have to say, this is not true.

It may be true for *you* but the use of "we" is not appropriate. I did it for a year, and it was a constant struggle to avoid over-eating, and I constantly felt in a state of deprivation. It also became virtually impossible to have an active lifestyle, due to never-ending fatigue. All that suffering ended for me by getting out of low carb.

Worst of all, the weight I did lose had an unacceptably high proportion of lean body mass, so it wasn't even great fat loss.

So there is no "we" in this type of diet. At the end of the day, it is just another diet, and how well it works depends on the individual.

in using "we" i was referring to those who dont just go low carb, but those who go sub 20g and keep it that way and it sounds highly likely you were not in the sweet spot and certainly were not managing things as others are able to do...and were certainly not benefiting...

perhaps you should seek further advice and you should certainly tell us the carbs g you were eating at the time ???

kgreenRDLDN

I'm going to preface my post with a couple of pertinent facts.

1) I'm ~42% BF and weigh 205 lbs right now. (can't compare to someone already fit)
2) I'm insulin resistant and do not process carbs/sugar appropriately (diagnosed)
3) I do not currently do cardio (back problems).

Here is what my heart doctor told me. If my weight stalls, do less than 30g NET CARBS per day for a couple weeks and then have a re-feed weekend where I eat somewhere between 100-150g, then drop them back down for another two weeks. In addition to that, I'm restricting calories to ~1200 /day. This was supported by my general doctor as well.

First time it took a week to hit ketosis (using those test strips). Now it takes me ~3 days to get back after falling off the wagon.

Cardio doc said you have to drink tons of water while in it, because you naturally dehydrate. The water keeps the kidneys from stressing out. I also take potassium supplement or high potassium/magnesium foods to offset the extra pee'ing that goes on. Ketosis will pull glycogen from your muscles after the carbs you eat are burned up. When I refeed, I gain up to 3 lbs water and then it goes back down.

From what I understand, your body won't go after body fat for energy until it's utilized carbs/fat eaten and drained the glycogen stores. I was also told not to exercise in ketosis unless I eat some additional carbs prior to exercise, or I might face plant. I haven't tested that theory, but that was the advice given to me(even doctors are guessing sometimes).

Bottom line (for me), I have eaten at a deficit for over a year, and stalled for several months. I started this carb cycling and have shed 8 lbs in one month. No, it's not all water, because I took diuretics prior to that (for edema) and weight wasn't budging. I've also lost about 3 inches this month from the waist and the edema is gone.

As for you running in keto or maintaining your weight, I would suggest researching and posting in some keto forums for more info. It won't hurt you to try it, but it requires pre-planning meals, and lots of time in the kitchen learning to cook things the "low carb" way. I personally don't have the discipline to stay in ketosis nonstop, but the lower I get my net carbs (under 100g), the more progress I have.

Please see a registered Dietitian for diet advice, not a general doctor. If the doctor is ok with the ketosis diet then see a registered dietitian to help you with it. Especially being either pre-diabetic or a type 2 diabetic (insulin resistant) You still have to have Carbs to prevent low blood sugars. PLEASE check with your local Dietitian.

As for the question about "normal" carbs It is recommended to have at least 120g CHO (carbs) a day for normal body function and brain health.

No_Finish_Line

i've been eating around 40 g of carbs for a month.


i really don't feel as though it offers and faster fat loss then a more traditional 'diet'.


almost seems like its comeing off slower.

I do find the food choices ultimately more satifying, but i could still have most of those and just eat at a defecit

IMO, its really only useful for bodybuilders in precontest. because you certainly do shed a **** ton of water weight.

it might also help you break weight loss plateaus simply by throwing your metabolism a curve ball.

other then that, i'd only really recomend it if for some reason its easier for you to eat this way.

there will be no magical weight gain when you return to carbs, just like there is no magical weight loss when you don't eat them. other then potential water weight.

yarwell

Please see a registered Dietitian for diet advice, not a general doctor. If the doctor is ok with the ketosis diet then see a registered dietitian to help you with it. Especially being either pre-diabetic or a type 2 diabetic (insulin resistant) You still have to have Carbs to prevent low blood sugars. PLEASE check with your local Dietitian.

I am confused by this, as the definition of a Type II diabetic is someone with high fasting blood sugar despite being able to make insulin. How or why would they get hypoglycemic ?

"Clinical Effects of Inadequate Intake

The lower limit of dietary carbohydrate compatible with life appar-
ently is zero, provided that adequate amounts of protein and fat are con-
sumed. However, the amount of dietary carbohydrate that provides for
optimal health in humans is unknown" - US RDI guidance. http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10490&page=275

yarwell

Question: What is a "normal" amount of carbs anyway?

If you go by one of these mainstream SAD diet guidelines it's 55% of energy so say 1100 calories or 275 grams a day. More than I eat in a week.

Or you could try :

"The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for carbohydrate is set at 130 g/d
for adults and children based on the average minimum amount of
glucose utilized by the brain. This level of intake, however, is typi-
cally exceeded to meet energy needs while consuming acceptable
intake levels of fat and protein"

kgreenRDLDN

Please see a registered Dietitian for diet advice, not a general doctor. If the doctor is ok with the ketosis diet then see a registered dietitian to help you with it. Especially being either pre-diabetic or a type 2 diabetic (insulin resistant) You still have to have Carbs to prevent low blood sugars. PLEASE check with your local Dietitian.

I am confused by this, as the definition of a Type II diabetic is someone with high fasting blood sugar despite being able to make insulin. How or why would they get hypoglycemic ?

"Clinical Effects of Inadequate Intake

The lower limit of dietary carbohydrate compatible with life appar-
ently is zero, provided that adequate amounts of protein and fat are con-
sumed. However, the amount of dietary carbohydrate that provides for
optimal health in humans is unknown" - US RDI guidance. http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10490&page=275

A type 2 diabetic does have higher blood glucose levels due to either not producing enough insulin, or insulin resistance. However that does not mean they don't have hypoglycemia (low blood glucose) if they skip a meal. I see many Diabetics (type 2) in my practice that have high A1Cs (3 month average of blood sugar levels) but still have low blood sugars when they eat too little carbohydrate, or skip a meal.

To level out blood sugar in Diabetes its a consistency thing. Same amount of carbohydrates same time each day. This helps your body to react equally. Then exercise, healthy foods, and sometime medications. Weight loss can help bring blood sugars back down as well. If you eat no carbohydrates and then exercise you run the high risk of a low blood sugar as exercise lowers blood sugars. We recommend no less than 30g carbohydrate a meal for type 2 diabetic. Anything lower than that and you are putting yourself at high risk for a low blood sugar and complications from Ketones. Ketones are not a good thing with Diabetes.

yarwell

Especially being either pre-diabetic or a type 2 diabetic (insulin resistant) You still have to have Carbs to prevent low blood sugars.

My body didn't get that memo, exercise does indeed drop my blood sugars down to normal levels but I've never measured anything lower than 4.5 mmol/l.

While high levels of ketones combined with very high blood sugars are indeed dangerous, the sort of levels achieved by carb restriction in people with reasonable blood sugar control is a mile off this scenario.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18184896 "Recently published consensus criteria for diagnosing diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) include a serum bicarbonate (HCO3) level ≤18 mEq/l, pH ≤7.30, the presence of ketonuria/ketonemia, an anion gap >10 mEq/l, and a plasma glucose concentration >250 mg/dl (13.9 mmol/l) "