Puppy play-how far is too far?

allaboutthecake

OP has your trainer witnessed this type of play/aggression? The older dog is establishing to the young buck that HE is the pack boss. You are working with a trainer and they are expert opinion. The trainer is good and knows both dogs? Then either video it for the trainer or take pix get it in detail. The puppy could be reaching adolescence and the older dog is establishing boundaries for the hierarchy in the pack. It sounds like the Boxer doesn't wish to give up the Top Dog placement. You are establishing to the Boxer that YOU are the Top Dog. That's the way it should be. YOU are the first one to walk in the house, while Boxer waits. YOU are the first one to eat while Boxer waits....am I correct? YOU are the one who says Boxer can bark, etc. you get the idea.

wild_wild_life

I think rough play between dogs is fine unless the submissive dog appears distressed. Gnawing on your hand is not OK, even if there are no teeth involved. Dogs should be inhibited against any sort of biting behavior towards humans as it can too easily escalate.

As for the dominance/reinforcement debate, there are a lot of things I admire about Cesar Milan but the idea that wolf packs are built around a single alpha wolf has been debunked, and dog packs have even less of this hierarchy than wolves. That said, bad or unwanted behavior should not be ignored, but redirected.

http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2007250,00.html

AnnieRoxxie

First; You should address any behavior concerns with your veterinarian, not your trainer. Vet's are actually trained in animal behavior, trainers for the most part are given a certificate for learning tricks in teaching dogs. This is unless you have an accredited and certified Animal Behavioral Specialist.

Second; If you actually have a well qualified trainer, allow them to just come over and "hang out" to see how the animals are in their normal environment. This will allow them to assess them properly.

Finally; Your situation sounds normal. What you think is "crossing the line" actually, and usually isn't. Your older dog is laying down boundaries for the younger one. When he's tackled by the younger pup and then snaps back tell her/him to stop it and you step in to say bad dog your essentially telling the older sibling not to complain about being picked on by the younger sibling. Oh the other hand, your puppy is learning her/his boundaries. Puppies can play really, really rough. Rather than the older one, I'd focus more on getting the puppy to calm down and wear out in other ways rather than just leaving the older one to "deal with it". Boxers are high energy, if she's still bouncing around after a play session still wanting to nibble on your fingers - play more or play harder until she's worn out. Also, make sure you lay down your boundaries while she is young. That nipping and gumming might be cute now but unless you redirect it to the proper action (giving her something she can chew on instead) you don't want a grown boxer nibbling on fingers! Not because you know she won't hurt you, but because her doing it to the wrong guest can spark a huge problem.


Oh, and depending on her age with all the chewing she might be teething. Get her some puppy teething toys.

3dogsrunning

Boxers play rough. It's hard to know if the behavior is aggression/dominance or something else. Your dog trainer will be able to tell the difference.

No matter what the source of the behavior is, you need to have complete unquestioned control over the stopping of any behavior at any time.

Well that's what scares me. The little one, you look at her sternly and she'll piddle and roll over on her back. The older dog is a little more stubborn. He's a shelter dog too and has some insecurities.

The "shelter dog" part? Don't give that any credence. Dogs (all animals) live in the now. They react with instinct, not past emotions.

Ever seen how an animal abused the majority of it's life behaves around people? ...

Yes, I've seen dogs that were abused that go into normal homes and function as normal dogs. I've also seen dogs that have never been mistreated a day in their life terrified of every person or man or stranger or whatever for no reason whatsoever.

Please go to a behaviourist/ trainer who is qualified in recent thinking and research- not the Cesar Milan type of outdated dominance rubbish.

The person working with us actually trains dogs to be therapy dogs. He has one of his own and has trained others...he's very good at what he does.

Sorry- wasnt a reflection on who you've chosen. I just wanted to advise against old style training which is so popular

What is the more recent thinking? Do you have some links or resources?

I mean reward based training rather than dominance/ pack leader theory. Check your trainer works like this.

Oh. So, unlike real relationships, you reward good behavior and ignore the bad?

All recent scientific research on dog psychology shows this is the best way of training dogs.

Once again I'm going to ask you for referrals and/or links to back up what you're saying. I've not met any dog behaviorists who would go against the natural behavior of pack animals. So, please, give me something that says otherwise.

Other than "because I said so."

Pack animals have a natural hierarchy to follow; and while physical affection and access to food is allowed in the pack, dominance and control are the overriding system.

Humans supplying "treats" for every good behavior ignores the need for discipline when there s bad behavior.

Not everything in life is about rewards.

It's like the little kids' baseball team that awards every player with a trophy just for being on the team. Yeah. No.

Someone is in charge in life. Whether it is your parent, your spouse, your boss, your coach, YOU. Someone is in charge. In a dog/human relationship, it should always be the human.




or the dog can get a job and buy its own house and food.

Except people seem to forget we aren't dogs and we don't speak "dog". Dogs do what works, if a good behavior is rewarded, then they are very, very likely to repeat that good behavior. Of course, if a bad behavior brings on a beating, it's pretty darn likely that that behavior will diminish very quickly.

Personally, I prefer my dogs to be excited to see me and enjoy being around me rather than fearing me, but that's just my personal preference. I do use treats occasionally, but tend to lean towards praise and affection for appropriate behavior, both with my personal dogs and the dogs we train for other owners.

This always gets me. Just because you correct your dog does not mean they will fear you. Corrections does not equal beating.

To give you an example, my husband has a working dog. He is the trainer. He uses both rewards and corrections in his training, some corrections can be strong as the dog is a high drive working dog.
My interaction with the dog is pretty much totally positive (not in the operant conditioning meaning of the word positive). I rarely, if ever, correct him, and certainly not to the extent that my husband has because I am not his trainer. It isn't a typical pet type situation. Most of my interaction with him is to bring him food, take him out to do his business, the occasional walk or run with me, or when we both take him to play. In this time he gets affection and play from me. So basically I am food and fun. Guess who the dog lives and dies for? Sure he is happy to see me, but my husband is the be all end all to him. My pet dogs will try to run between the two of us if we walk in different directions, with him, there is no doubt who he goes with. His dog is in no way shape or form afraid of him despite the fact he uses corrections.

Sovictorrious

This is why I run with cats.

wild_wild_life

This is why I run with cats.

:laugh: So you dash across the room inexplicably for no reason, stand in the doorway for several minutes, and then take a nap on the newspaper? I like that workout too.

MSeel1984

OP has your trainer witnessed this type of play/aggression? The older dog is establishing to the young buck that HE is the pack boss. You are working with a trainer and they are expert opinion. The trainer is good and knows both dogs? Then either video it for the trainer or take pix get it in detail. The puppy could be reaching adolescence and the older dog is establishing boundaries for the hierarchy in the pack. It sounds like the Boxer doesn't wish to give up the Top Dog placement. You are establishing to the Boxer that YOU are the Top Dog. That's the way it should be. YOU are the first one to walk in the house, while Boxer waits. YOU are the first one to eat while Boxer waits....am I correct? YOU are the one who says Boxer can bark, etc. you get the idea.

So far he's interacted with the young dog more than the older dog...and when guests are over (unless they're outside playing) they're not really rambunctious inside. We did just hire him and haven't had many sessions yet. The little one is not outwardly aggressive-just extremely playful and a bit rough...it's the older dog that seems to snap once in a while and his play can be rougher than the little one. It's a great idea to use the camera to catch them so he can see what's going on.

MSeel1984

Boxers play rough. It's hard to know if the behavior is aggression/dominance or something else. Your dog trainer will be able to tell the difference.

No matter what the source of the behavior is, you need to have complete unquestioned control over the stopping of any behavior at any time.

Well that's what scares me. The little one, you look at her sternly and she'll piddle and roll over on her back. The older dog is a little more stubborn. He's a shelter dog too and has some insecurities.

The "shelter dog" part? Don't give that any credence. Dogs (all animals) live in the now. They react with instinct, not past emotions.

Ever seen how an animal abused the majority of it's life behaves around people? ...

How do you know it has been abused the majority of its life?

Are you sure you aren't making up a story to suit your inability to connect and guide the dog?

By any chance are you a lawyer...you seem to love arguing.

cmriverside

Thanks, ISP/MFP...not retyping that. :laugh:

tigerblood78

have you tried duct taping their mouths shut?