Muscles can lift what the tendons can't, learn from me

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Replies

  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    All I know is, now that I'm older mobility/roller work is mandatory. In fact, I'm busting it out tomorrow due to this thread (and the fact I'm starting to feel a bit like hammered crap)

    Yeah I 100% agree! My wife is starting to get jealous of my relationship with my lacrosse balls and foam roller lol. I'm not saying I don't think it works. Like with a number of other training-related things, it clearly does. What I was getting at is that I'm not sure if anyone knows exactly WHY it works.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,974 Member
    Turning 50 this year, tendinitis has been a pain in my *kitten* (not literally) for the past 10 years. I have both golfers and tennis elbow in both elbows and also in my left ankle and left patellar tendon. So I usually have to do a pretty good warm up, and for my elbows I wear neoprene sleeves to keep them "warm". Makes it the more bearable when I have to lift heavier, although with age my strength has diminished year by year.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    When the additional stress put on these weakened tissues (that never really got a chance to recover) by fresh muscles = injury.

    Hmm, that's a really interesting thought. What comes to mind though is that training the same thing every day doesn't allow for recouperation at all, even for the tendons you're trying to avoid injuring.

    In the event that you do take a rest day, your tendons will be even more fatigued. Since the muscles recoup faster, they will "come back to work" on tendons that are even worse off, right?

    He's thinking too short term I think. That approach, versus just starting light and programing volume and weight conservatively, is bound to cause even more serious injury, if only further on down the road.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    Here's one of the foam rolling articles I was talking about.

    http://bretcontreras.com/how-does-foam-rolling-work-and-why-smr-should-be-called-smt/
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    My research supports that as well- it takes MONTHS longer than muscles and bones because of the reduced blood flow.

    That's why ART/Foam rolling works- breaks up crusty scar tissue and improves blood flow.

    That's funny; I just read a pretty comprehensive article re: foam rolling-type therapies that basically resulted in these guys saying " we really don't know why foam rolling works."

    I'd be really interested to see any solid info you've got.

    I'll dig some stuff up- this was probably a year ago- it may be way more bro-science than I remember- but I definitely didn't go sports therapy route in my research. I'm limited- I have no interwebz at home- and limited access at work- I'll try to remember to post up here- if not just PM you at the very least LOL- I'm terribly at coming back to things.


    the two things I have come to learn/fed knowledge whatever/broscience/dance science/graston crap whatever

    1.) breaking up scar tissue- most tendentious (inflammation) is long past inflammation- it's scar tissue.- hence tendenosis.

    the rolling/gratson- stuff breaks down the scar tissue.

    2.) increases blood flow.
    moar blood flow- moar O2- moar healing.

    3.) Releases tension/tight spots

    This also isn't just sports stuff- my dance instructors keep foam rollers at the studio- we use them a LOT on IT bands. It works the same way as a massage- no one questions that those are effective? why is foam rolling any different? it's just a self perpetuated/regulated massage.

    Or do we really not have any science to back that up either (not being argumentative- really earnestly asking)

    Or are we challenging why massages work as well?
  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
    So I usually have to do a pretty good warm up, and for my elbows I wear neoprene sleeves to keep them "warm". Makes it the more bearable when I have to lift heavier, although with age my strength has diminished year by year.

    Probably the best advice you will get on this thread. I suffer from tendonitis and extreme pain & swelling 24/7 in every joint of my body from fingers to hips, knees, elbows etc due to a joint disease that attacks my connective tissues as well.

    Keep the problem areas warm with a neoprene sleeve and you will be able to get through it with way less pain. The other thing you probably should do is double check your form. When you are using lower weight, might as well utilize the time to a premium.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    When the additional stress put on these weakened tissues (that never really got a chance to recover) by fresh muscles = injury.

    Hmm, that's an interesting thought. What comes to mind though is that training the same thing every day doesn't allow for recouperation at all, even for the tendons you're trying to avoid injuring.

    In the event that you do take a rest day, your tendons will be even more fatigued. Since the muscles recoup faster, they will "come back to work" on tendons that are even worse off, right?

    He's thinking too short term I think. That approach, versus just starting light and programing volume and weight conservatively, is bound to cause even more serious injury, if only further on down the road.

    Well I dunno if I'd accuse John Broz of thinking short-term myself lol. I think that the big takeaway is, possibly (if this idea has any merit at all), that your body is sophisticated enough that it adapts to things you might not expect. Most notably, it is recovering all the time. Even when it's put under stress, it's still trying to rebuild constantly. Obviously if you keep POUNDING it into the ground, it won't be able to keep up. If, however, you keep placing it under *some* strain repeatedly to the point that it has to recognize what's happening as an ongoing activity it needs to nut up and deal with, then some interesting adaptations can occur.

    I may be completely off-base, also, as may Perryman and Broz and Pendlay et al. It's entirely possible that there are undiscovered differences between people that distinguish who will benefit from this kind of training and who will not.

    Bob Peoples set a deadlift record in 1949 that stood for over 20 years. His program was to pull heavy triples every day. The guy ripped 700 lbs at 180.

    I'm just saying there are enough people being successful at it that it's interesting to look at their methodology and see what parts of it can be applied to any type of training.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    1.) breaking up scar tissue- most tendentious (inflammation) is long past inflammation- it's scar tissue.- hence tendenosis.

    the rolling/gratson- stuff breaks down the scar tissue.

    2.) increases blood flow.
    moar blood flow- moar O2- moar healing.

    3.) Releases tension/tight spots

    This also isn't just sports stuff- my dance instructors keep foam rollers at the studio- we use them a LOT on IT bands. It works the same way as a massage- no one questions that those are effective? why is foam rolling any different? it's just a self perpetuated/regulated massage.

    Or do we really not have any science to back that up either (not being argumentative- really earnestly asking)

    Or are we challenging why massages work as well?

    The increased blood flow idea actually makes more sense to me than anything else I've heard. Most of what I've read says that actual research doesn't support the idea that scar tissue is actually being broken up, but the science is still REALLY fuzzy. The bottom of that Contreras article links to a ton of other stuff, also.

    I'd have to say that the "why" of massage efficacy is also being questioned, but now I need to go look into it lol. I know that I love my massage therapist dearly and am positive that it is effective, too, lol.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    This also isn't just sports stuff- my dance instructors keep foam rollers at the studio- we use them a LOT on IT bands. It works the same way as a massage- no one questions that those are effective? why is foam rolling any different? it's just a self perpetuated/regulated massage.

    Or do we really not have any science to back that up either (not being argumentative- really earnestly asking)

    Or are we challenging why massages work as well?

    It is different from a massage actually, in one very key way. Massage causes shearing between tissues, where rolling only "rolls" over a given point. So in the later, there's little if any "myofascial release". It's almost equivalent to pressing down on a given spot.

    Now, as for the efficacy of massages, I have no idea how/why they might work/not work. Does feel good though, and in my experiance.

    Also, rolling has seemed to help me, somehow, especially with my hips. That said, when I started with the rolling, I also started with some other stretching.
  • delicious_cocktail
    delicious_cocktail Posts: 5,797 Member
    The increased blood flow idea actually makes more sense to me than anything else I've heard. Most of what I've read says that actual research doesn't support the idea that scar tissue is actually being broken up, but the science is still REALLY fuzzy. The bottom of that Contreras article links to a ton of other stuff, also.

    I'd have to say that the "why" of massage efficacy is also being questioned, but now I need to go look into it lol. I know that I love my massage therapist dearly and am positive that it is effective, too, lol.

    I work with a massage therapist who is awesome at stimulating blood flow.

    lIp7bcd.gif
  • TR0berts
    TR0berts Posts: 7,739 Member

    Even when it's put under stress, it's still trying to rebuild constantly. Obviously if you keep POUNDING it into the ground, it won't be able to keep up. If, however, you keep placing it under *some* strain repeatedly to the point that it has to recognize what's happening as an ongoing activity it needs to nut up and deal with, then some interesting adaptations can occur.



    This makes me wonder if simply doing a few rounds of bodyweight squats and pushups would be enough on off-days to stimulate the muscles/tendons/ligaments while not overexerting oneself. Not having read up on this, any ideas if I'm correct? Or would the load(s) need to be greater?
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    This also isn't just sports stuff- my dance instructors keep foam rollers at the studio- we use them a LOT on IT bands. It works the same way as a massage- no one questions that those are effective? why is foam rolling any different? it's just a self perpetuated/regulated massage.

    Or do we really not have any science to back that up either (not being argumentative- really earnestly asking)

    Or are we challenging why massages work as well?

    It is different from a massage actually, in one very key way. Massage causes shearing between tissues, where rolling only "rolls" over a given point. So in the later, there's little if any "myofascial release". It's almost equivalent to pressing down on a given spot.

    Now, as for the efficacy of massages, I have no idea how/why they might work/not work. Does feel good though, and in my experiance.

    Also, rolling has seemed to help me, somehow, especially with my hips. That said, when I started with the rolling, I also started with some other stretching.

    the type of massage you encounter makes a big difference.

    This type of stuff is very much in the swedish deep tissue Pin and Stretch technique department. in that sense ART is not new- just reformated and fits nicely under Chiro work.

    and if you think there is no shearing going on- clearly you have never rolled your IT band enough with a hard enough object. LOL chit feels like it's tearing you apart.
    same with knots on my back.

    it's not JUST rolling.
    The increased blood flow idea actually makes more sense to me than anything else I've heard. Most of what I've read says that actual research doesn't support the idea that scar tissue is actually being broken up, but the science is still REALLY fuzzy. The bottom of that Contreras article links to a ton of other stuff, also.

    I concur- I'm kind of okay with it because it sort of makes more sense than just inflammation inflammation inflammation- but releasing scar tissue into the body just only kind of doesn't jive to my brain but I'm sure there has to be SOMEWHERE that came from- mabye one of those detox/cleanse rubbish things- I remember reading an article about it some that sounded sensical to me- but gosh that was a while ago- now I need to know.
  • brian1383
    brian1383 Posts: 39 Member
    I had severe tendonitis in my elbows a few years ago. Being a typical man, I figured I'd just work through it. Do you know what it looks like when you completely detach the bicep tendon on a big deadlift? Picture an alien baby's head crawling up your arm under the skin. Surgery to reattach it, a 8 inch scar on my inner arm, and a deformed bicep at the point of lower attachment (the surgeon said that was because of muscle girth, but who knows -- he may have botched it a bit. Either way, it's on me).

    In the ensuing years, my body weight swelled, muscle just wasted, and I actually felt depressed over being so tired and weak.

    I know this sounds like a lecture, but PLEASE listen to your body. You listen to it when it lets you lift big weight, why not when its giving you sound advice about the need for additional recovery?

    Good luck and be well!
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    This makes me wonder if simply doing a few rounds of bodyweight squats and pushups would be enough on off-days to stimulate the muscles/tendons/ligaments while not overexerting oneself. Not having read up on this, any ideas if I'm correct? Or would the load(s) need to be greater?

    I tore myself up doing body weight stuff- there are actually a few doctors who are adamantly against things like push ups- there is no moderation- a bar you can always go lighter to the point of nothing- body weight you have to be strong enough to do it and that's all there is to it.

    Like me right now- I can't do push ups- nope nope nope nope. There is no regulating it- it's all or nothing- and I can't take it.

    So in some regards it's NOT better- I like body weight stuff- but if you are injured- they are not always the best- this is why a lot of rehab involves bands and 0.5 to 5 lbs weights.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312643/

    in case you tl:dr

    this is very important and one of the reasons I really start digging into this- this resonated and made a lot of sense to me
    The most important reason to distinguish between tendinitis and tendinosis is the differing treatment goals and timelines. The most prominent treatment goal for tendinitis is to reduce inflammation, a condition that isn’t present in tendinosis. In fact, some treatments to reduce inflammation are contraindicated with tendinosis. Ibuprofen, a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory, is associated with inhibited collagen repair(9). Corticosteroid injections inhibited collagen repair in one study, and were found to be a predictor of later tendon tears(3,4,10).

    The healing time for tendinitis is several days to 6 weeks, depending on whether treatment starts with early presentation or chronic presentation(3). Khan et al.(3) state that treatment for tendinosis recognized at an early stage can be as brief as 6–10 weeks; however, treatment once the tendinosis has become chronic can take 3–6 months. It is suggested by Rattray and Ludwig(10) that effective treatment might take up to 9 months once the tendinosis is chronic. Knowing these timelines is part of creating an effective treatment plan. Khan(3) reportedly suggests that tendons “require over 100 days to make new collagen.” Given this claim, treating chronic tendinosis for a matter of weeks would provide little benefit to the long-term repair of the tendon.

    knowing what's going on is important in how you treat it- especially if you have a chronic injury like this.
  • TR0berts
    TR0berts Posts: 7,739 Member
    Oh, I wasn't meaning for rehab purposes. I was simply referring to the quote huffdogg posted with regards to helping keep the tendons/ligaments in shape - kinda like active rest/recovery, I guess. I may not be verbalizing my thought process well. Wouldn't be the first time.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    This makes me wonder if simply doing a few rounds of bodyweight squats and pushups would be enough on off-days to stimulate the muscles/tendons/ligaments while not overexerting oneself. Not having read up on this, any ideas if I'm correct? Or would the load(s) need to be greater?

    For instance, a bodyweight pushup is equal to benching 2/3rds of your weight. That's not light. That would be a good 25 lbs heavier than what my PT has advised me to do.

    Devil's in the details lol, you could definitely hurt yourself doing BW stuff too. It's all about pacing and starting light.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    Devil's in the details

    QFT
  • Fullsterkur_woman
    Fullsterkur_woman Posts: 2,712 Member
    For instance, a bodyweight pushup is equal to benching 2/3rds of your weight.
    That explains why I do ALL THE DEADLIFTS but still have to do incline pushups. :embarassed:
  • Fullsterkur_woman
    Fullsterkur_woman Posts: 2,712 Member
    Bob Peoples set a deadlift record in 1949 that stood for over 20 years. His program was to pull heavy triples every day. The guy ripped 700 lbs at 180.
    If I do heavy triples every day (which sounds absolutely awesome to me, BTW, for serious!), how long do you think it'll take to add 480 pounds to my deadlift? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    Bob Peoples set a deadlift record in 1949 that stood for over 20 years. His program was to pull heavy triples every day. The guy ripped 700 lbs at 180.
    If I do heavy triples every day (which sounds absolutely awesome to me, BTW, for serious!), how long do you think it'll take to add 480 pounds to my deadlift? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    LOLOLOL
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    man you're greedy!!!

    I just want to add another 20 or so to mine....

    for now.
  • Fullsterkur_woman
    Fullsterkur_woman Posts: 2,712 Member
    man you're greedy!!!

    I just want to add another 20 or so to mine....

    for now.
    Yeah, well, yours is a whole lot better than mine right now! Hey, when did you start deadlifting btw? I've always wondered.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    man you're greedy!!!

    I just want to add another 20 or so to mine....

    for now.
    Yeah, well, yours is a whole lot better than mine right now! Hey, when did you start deadlifting btw? I've always wondered.

    Ummmmm I used to lift a lot in college- but I remember more power lifting than oly lifting.

    I was out of it for a while- mostly doing HIIT weight training and dancing. I stopped BB training from 2006 to probably 2012ish?

    I seriously started training again this last early Spring... I put on 100 solid lbs in a few months- but I had a good base to begin with to be honest. So that's kind of not fair LOL.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Ya early gains are awesome.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Bump so more people can see and learn from this.
  • j75j75
    j75j75 Posts: 854 Member
    I've had tendon issues in both elbows and both knees, and a torn rotator cuff, so I feel your pain. All I can say is foam roll, get regular massages, and swim. You will be amazed at the results you get pertaining to your recovery, and as you continue to do them so that you can prevent injuries in the future.

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