Review of Dietary Protein During Caloric Restriction

jonnythan

Also: thinking motivation is the same as neurologic adaptation = :laugh:

Fullsterkur_woman

Also: thinking motivation is the same as neurologic adaptation = :laugh:

Right?! There'd be a crap ton of very strong and dreadfully nervous lifters out there if so!

richardheath

Laughing at Guyton's again?

I thought you had learned your lesson.

Just what is your background that makes you scoff at the medical standard for physiology?

I think that is a very fair question.

My copy of Guyton's doesn't really say anything about how much protein one needs to consume to maximize lean mass retention.

Granted, mine's the 9th ed, published in 1996. Have they added such a section since?

I don't have mine handy. The last edition was 2011. The final chapter is dedicated to sports physiology and metabolics. Generally, to know if you are in a positive nitrogen balance, you do have to analyze the urine and feces. That is probably the only way to really know. The body, of course, will get rid of the nitrates it doesn't need. If you are exercising like a demon and eating a lot of protein, and yet you excretion levels are normal, then you are probably doing OK protein-wise.

But it sounds like you guys are not trying to lose weight as much as becoming buff with a low percent body fat.

Just looked at my downloaded Guytons and I will try a cut and paste. This concerns protein in general and should be the background information base before going into the finer points of muscle-building.

QuietBloom- get ready to laugh and laugh and laugh!!

Obligatory Degradation of Proteins
When a person eats no proteins, a certain proportion of
body proteins is degraded into amino acids and then
deaminated and oxidized. This involves 20 to 30 grams
of protein each day, which is called the obligatory
loss of proteins. Therefore, to prevent net loss of
protein from the body, one must ingest a minimum
of 20 to 30 grams of protein each day; to be on the
safe side, a minimum of 60 to 75 grams is usually
recommended.

So, when not in a calorie deficit, the recommendation here is that minimum amount of protein a normal person should eat is 60-75 g of protein per day (about 2x the amount of obligatory protein degradation).

The ratios of the different amino acids in the dietary
protein must be about the same as the ratios in the body
tissues if the entire dietary protein is to be fully usable
to form new proteins in the tissues. If one particular type
of essential amino acid is low in concentration, the
others become unusable because cells synthesize either
whole proteins or none at all, as explained in Chapter 3
in relation to protein synthesis. The unusable amino
acids are deaminated and oxidized. A protein that has
a ratio of amino acids different from that of the average
body protein is called a partial protein or incomplete
protein, and such a protein is less valuable for nutrition
than is a complete protein.
Effect of Starvation on Protein Degradation. Except for the 20
to 30 grams of obligatory protein degradation each day,
the body uses almost entirely carbohydrates or fats
for energy, as long as they are available. However,
after several weeks of starvation, when the quantities
of stored carbohydrates and fats begin to run out, the
amino acids of the blood are rapidly deaminated and
oxidized for energy. From this point on, the proteins
of the tissues degrade rapidly—as much as 125 grams
daily—and, as a result, cellular functions deteriorate
precipitously. Because carbohydrate and fat utilization
for energy normally occurs in preference to protein
utilization, carbohydrates and fats are called protein
sparers.

And then, in a state of calorie deficiency, obligatory protein degradation increases, up to 125 g daily. So, if we take the 2x factor again, that would mean we need to eat up to 250g of protein per day when in starvation. [Obviously, starvation as spoken of here is true starvation, not a mere calorie deficiency, but the general point will remain - the bigger the deficit, the more protein your body will use to make up the short fall.]

Hormonal Regulation
of Protein Metabolism
...snip irrelevant stuff...

So your favorite bible of physiology appears to say that we need more protein when in calorie deficiency.

So what exactly are you arguing against here?

richardheath

We should be talking about pure isolated muscle strength here- not strength measure by actual outcomes.

With resistance training, the point is to gain strength and that only occurs with an increase in muscle mass.

So the point isn't to get stronger and be able to move more weight.... it's only to increase the actual strength of individual muscles. Or something.

Even if that were true, which makes no sense at all, it's irrelevant. Neural adaptations make muscles able to contract with greater strength, period.

No amount of irrelevant passages copied and pasted from Guyton's changes that. Especially when you can't even seem to quite understand what you're copying.

You will not find a hypothesized "strength gain" from neural input/adaption over time without a gain in muscle mass- with the muscle mass gain probably the most dominant factor.

At any rate, we are talking about two different things.

Measure what a weightlifter can do in a session, and then threaten him with a TASER if he doesn't lift more. He probably will lift more weight under the pressure and apparently GAIN STRENGTH. Does that mean his muscles have grown stronger?

Stronger neural input recruits more muscle packets to contract, resulting an effective increase in strength, but the actin-myosin microfilaments have limit. To do more work within a "packet" more are needed. Mass must be increased.

Read Guytons

bump

I bolded the bit you appear to have missed in talking about neuronal adaptation.

Yes, the filaments have limits. But we can train our bodies to do more (lift more; get stronger) with what we have before we need to increase muscle mass.

It's not a question of reading Guytons... I am reminded of this scene from A Fish Called Wanda:

Wanda: [after Otto breaks in on Wanda and Archie in Archie's flat and hangs him out the window] I was dealing with something delicate, Otto. I'm setting up a guy who's incredibly important to us, who's going to tell me where the loot is and if they're going to come and arrest you. And you come loping in like Rambo without a jockstrap and you dangle him out a fifth-floor window. Now, was that smart? Was it shrewd? Was it good tactics? Or was it stupid?

Otto West: Don't call me stupid.

Wanda: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?

Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.

Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up.

jonnythan

I would like to see that study.

An exercise program that trains people to lift more WITHOUT increasing muscle mass is almost oxymoronic.

We are talking resistance training here. And, bottom line, if the muscles work against resistance, they will respond and hypertrophy.

Now, doing repetitive exercise where there is no resistance involved, now that is a different story. Muscles will not hypertrophy. On their own without stimulation, they maintain a baseline tonus anyway.

But the more effort put into lifting against resistance, the more muscle fibers will be recruited into action. And they will grow and hypertrophy as they recover from the micro-damage if the program is consistently maintained.

Hey, I am doing all you weight-lifter guys a big favor by posting pertinent sections from Guyton's. Where else arre you going to find this stuff?

Don't be so knee-jerk adversarial and go and read the selections again. And then read them again.

Learn how your body really works.

Muscles don't respond with hypertrophy if you're in a calorie deficit. People can and do bwt stronger without increases in muscle mass. It happens all the time. How do you think Olympic lifters lift more over time while staying in the same weight class? They just get leaner and that's it? Not quite.

You really need to read something other than Guytons. Pick up a book on exercise physiology.

QuietBloom

Wanda: [after Otto breaks in on Wanda and Archie in Archie's flat and hangs him out the window] I was dealing with something delicate, Otto. I'm setting up a guy who's incredibly important to us, who's going to tell me where the loot is and if they're going to come and arrest you. And you come loping in like Rambo without a jockstrap and you dangle him out a fifth-floor window. Now, was that smart? Was it shrewd? Was it good tactics? Or was it stupid?

Otto West: Don't call me stupid.

Wanda: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?

Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.

Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up.

Just perfectly on point. :flowerforyou:

Fullsterkur_woman

I would like to see that study.

An exercise program that trains people to lift more WITHOUT increasing muscle mass is almost oxymoronic.

We are talking resistance training here. And, bottom line, if the muscles work against resistance, they will respond and hypertrophy.

Now, doing repetitive exercise where there is no resistance involved, now that is a different story. Muscles will not hypertrophy. On their own without stimulation, they maintain a baseline tonus anyway.

But the more effort put into lifting against resistance, the more muscle fibers will be recruited into action. And they will grow and hypertrophy as they recover from the micro-damage if the program is consistently maintained.

Hey, I am doing all you weight-lifter guys a big favor by posting pertinent sections from Guyton's. Where else arre you going to find this stuff?

Don't be so knee-jerk adversarial and go and read the selections again. And then read them again.

Learn how your body really works.

Oh. OK. I'll just tell my trainer his services are no longer required, since I can't possibly get stronger unless I'm eating a surplus. Except that I am getting stronger. It's just... bizarre... that you ignore these facts when presented to you.

J72FIT

Muscles don't respond with hypertrophy if you're in a calorie deficit.

@Jonnythan I have a question - If you are eating at a deficit to lose fat, and your body is using stored fat to reach TDEE, would you be in a caloric deficit in the end? In other words, could my love handles provide the extra calories for my muscles to hypertrophy even though I am eating at a caloric deficit?

jonnythan

Muscles don't respond with hypertrophy if you're in a calorie deficit.

@Jonnythan I have a question - If you are eating at a deficit to lose fat, and your body is using stored fat to reach TDEE, would you be in a caloric deficit in the end? In other words, could my love handles provide the extra calories for my muscles to hypertrophy even though I am eating at a caloric deficit?

The short answer is no, the body just doesn't work that way.

The longer answer is that there's limited indirect evidence that people who are absolutely new to strength training can gain small amounts of muscle "mass" in a deficit. However, this has not been thoroughly studied and comes mostly from anecdotal evidence. It's my personal opinion that no such thing really happens and all we're seeing in these instances is some significant water retention by the newbie's muscles which can cause an increase in weight gain without an increase in fat mass as measured by calipers or body fat scales, which gives the impression of true lean mass gains that don't really exist.

If the body could consume its own fat stores to build muscle, that would be pretty freaking awesome. But it just doesn't happen. The body is too smart for that; in periods of prolonged calorie deficit, it's simply not going to build additional muscle, which is relatively expensive calorically.

J72FIT

it's simply not going to build additional muscle, which is relatively expensive calorically.

I am guessing the best you can hope for is to maintain your muscle as you lose fat... provided you are weight training.

jonnythan

it's simply not going to build additional muscle, which is relatively expensive calorically.

I am guessing the best you can hope for is to maintain your muscle as you lose fat... provided you are weight training.

Indeed. Surprisingly, you can retain quite a bit of lean mass while losing weight if you simply eat a lot of protein and do no weight training. You definitely retain more if you do the lifting, though.

J72FIT

Indeed. Surprisingly, you can retain quite a bit of lean mass while losing weight if you simply eat a lot of protein and do no weight training. You definitely retain more if you do the lifting, though.

That is reassuring. I am having hip surgery (bone spur and torn labrum) this coming monday and will be out of commission for 6 weeks. Then re-hab. You think I should up protein, keep fat where it is and drop carbs? Currently I shoot for 160g protein per day, 70-80 grams fat per day and make up TDEE with carbs. I am 5'10", 175lbs at about 10-12% body fat and strength train 3-4 times per week consuming roughly 2700 calories per day.

jonnythan

Indeed. Surprisingly, you can retain quite a bit of lean mass while losing weight if you simply eat a lot of protein and do no weight training. You definitely retain more if you do the lifting, though.

That is reassuring. I am having hip surgery (bone spur and torn labrum) this coming monday and will be out of commission for 6 weeks. Then re-hab. You think I should up protein, keep fat where it is and drop carbs? Currently I shoot for 160g protein per day, 70-80 grams fat per day and make up TDEE with carbs. I am 5'10", 175lbs at about 10-12% body fat and strength train 3-4 times per week consuming roughly 2700 calories per day.

Well I would strongly recommend you not try to lose weight while laid up rehabbing from hip surgery. Up calories and try to maintain. Not only will this preserve the most lean mass, but your body really needs all the resources it can get to actually recover from what it perceives as a pretty serious injury. I personally wouldn't worry too much about fat and carbs to any extent more than what you find personally filling and tasty.

As for protein, I think 160g is a pretty good maintenance target but given your lean mass (155+ lbs) it's on the low side for cutting. The most current recommendations are 1.1 -1.4 g/lb FFM, so that's 170 - 217. 170 or 180 is probably a better cutting target than 160 for you. Shouldn't be too hard at 2700 calories.

richardheath

I would like to see that study.

An exercise program that trains people to lift more WITHOUT increasing muscle mass is almost oxymoronic.

We are talking resistance training here. And, bottom line, if the muscles work against resistance, they will respond and hypertrophy.

Now, doing repetitive exercise where there is no resistance involved, now that is a different story. Muscles will not hypertrophy. On their own without stimulation, they maintain a baseline tonus anyway.

But the more effort put into lifting against resistance, the more muscle fibers will be recruited into action. And they will grow and hypertrophy as they recover from the micro-damage if the program is consistently maintained.

Hey, I am doing all you weight-lifter guys a big favor by posting pertinent sections from Guyton's. Where else arre you going to find this stuff?

Don't be so knee-jerk adversarial and go and read the selections again. And then read them again.

Learn how your body really works.

So have you given up on the amount of protein question? Which was actually the topic of this thread. And what about the part of your own quote where you said "Stronger neural input recruits more muscle packets to contract, resulting an effective increase in strength"???

I'm really not sure what your argument is - you seem to argue one way one minute, then respond with "read Guyton's" the next as if he magically proves your point. Which, as I showed above, he doesn't. If there is something I am missing in Guyton's, please reference me to the exact section in that online edition you linked to earlier and explain exactly why you think it relevant to whatever it is you are trying to say. Because I don't think I'm the one with the reading comprehension issue here.

richardheath

Wanda: [after Otto breaks in on Wanda and Archie in Archie's flat and hangs him out the window] I was dealing with something delicate, Otto. I'm setting up a guy who's incredibly important to us, who's going to tell me where the loot is and if they're going to come and arrest you. And you come loping in like Rambo without a jockstrap and you dangle him out a fifth-floor window. Now, was that smart? Was it shrewd? Was it good tactics? Or was it stupid?

Otto West: Don't call me stupid.

Wanda: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?

Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.

Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up.

Just perfectly on point. :flowerforyou:

:blushing: I thought so! :flowerforyou:

J72FIT

Indeed. Surprisingly, you can retain quite a bit of lean mass while losing weight if you simply eat a lot of protein and do no weight training. You definitely retain more if you do the lifting, though.

That is reassuring. I am having hip surgery (bone spur and torn labrum) this coming monday and will be out of commission for 6 weeks. Then re-hab. You think I should up protein, keep fat where it is and drop carbs? Currently I shoot for 160g protein per day, 70-80 grams fat per day and make up TDEE with carbs. I am 5'10", 175lbs at about 10-12% body fat and strength train 3-4 times per week consuming roughly 2700 calories per day.

Well I would strongly recommend you not try to lose weight while laid up rehabbing from hip surgery. Up calories and try to maintain. Not only will this preserve the most lean mass, but your body really needs all the resources it can get to actually recover from what it perceives as a pretty serious injury. I personally wouldn't worry too much about fat and carbs to any extent more than what you find personally filling and tasty.

As for protein, I think 160g is a pretty good maintenance target but given your lean mass (155+ lbs) it's on the low side for cutting. The most current recommendations are 1.1 -1.4 g/lb FFM, so that's 170 - 217. 170 or 180 is probably a better cutting target than 160 for you. Shouldn't be too hard at 2700 calories.

Currently I am in maintenance give or take a few pounds so I won't be looking to lose weight. Are you recommending I keep calories at 2700 calories per day even though I will not be training?

jonnythan

Indeed. Surprisingly, you can retain quite a bit of lean mass while losing weight if you simply eat a lot of protein and do no weight training. You definitely retain more if you do the lifting, though.

That is reassuring. I am having hip surgery (bone spur and torn labrum) this coming monday and will be out of commission for 6 weeks. Then re-hab. You think I should up protein, keep fat where it is and drop carbs? Currently I shoot for 160g protein per day, 70-80 grams fat per day and make up TDEE with carbs. I am 5'10", 175lbs at about 10-12% body fat and strength train 3-4 times per week consuming roughly 2700 calories per day.

Well I would strongly recommend you not try to lose weight while laid up rehabbing from hip surgery. Up calories and try to maintain. Not only will this preserve the most lean mass, but your body really needs all the resources it can get to actually recover from what it perceives as a pretty serious injury. I personally wouldn't worry too much about fat and carbs to any extent more than what you find personally filling and tasty.

As for protein, I think 160g is a pretty good maintenance target but given your lean mass (155+ lbs) it's on the low side for cutting. The most current recommendations are 1.1 -1.4 g/lb FFM, so that's 170 - 217. 170 or 180 is probably a better cutting target than 160 for you. Shouldn't be too hard at 2700 calories.

Currently I am in maintenance give or take a few pounds so I won't be looking to lose weight. Are you recommending I keep calories at 2700 calories per day even though I will not be training?

Well presumably you would adjust your calorie intake to account for the calories you're no longer burning by training. The idea is to remain in maintenance.

J72FIT

Indeed. Surprisingly, you can retain quite a bit of lean mass while losing weight if you simply eat a lot of protein and do no weight training. You definitely retain more if you do the lifting, though.

That is reassuring. I am having hip surgery (bone spur and torn labrum) this coming monday and will be out of commission for 6 weeks. Then re-hab. You think I should up protein, keep fat where it is and drop carbs? Currently I shoot for 160g protein per day, 70-80 grams fat per day and make up TDEE with carbs. I am 5'10", 175lbs at about 10-12% body fat and strength train 3-4 times per week consuming roughly 2700 calories per day.

Well I would strongly recommend you not try to lose weight while laid up rehabbing from hip surgery. Up calories and try to maintain. Not only will this preserve the most lean mass, but your body really needs all the resources it can get to actually recover from what it perceives as a pretty serious injury. I personally wouldn't worry too much about fat and carbs to any extent more than what you find personally filling and tasty.

As for protein, I think 160g is a pretty good maintenance target but given your lean mass (155+ lbs) it's on the low side for cutting. The most current recommendations are 1.1 -1.4 g/lb FFM, so that's 170 - 217. 170 or 180 is probably a better cutting target than 160 for you. Shouldn't be too hard at 2700 calories.

Currently I am in maintenance give or take a few pounds so I won't be looking to lose weight. Are you recommending I keep calories at 2700 calories per day even though I will not be training?

Well presumably you would adjust your calorie intake to account for the calories you're no longer burning by training. The idea is to remain in maintenance.

What percentage above maintenance do you think is appropriate for recovery from surgery? I know there is no exact answer and there will be some adjusting along the way but just a ballpark...

jonnythan

What percentage above maintenance do you think is appropriate for recovery from surgery? I know there is no exact answer and there will be some adjusting along the way but just a ballpark...

Oh geez, I don't know. I'm no expert in this. I'd just shoot for about maintenance and not worry about it if I went a few hundred over every now and then.

J72FIT

What percentage above maintenance do you think is appropriate for recovery from surgery? I know there is no exact answer and there will be some adjusting along the way but just a ballpark...

Oh geez, I don't know. I'm no expert in this. I'd just shoot for about maintenance and not worry about it if I went a few hundred over every now and then.

Cool... makes sense. The mirror, scale and tape measure will tell me what I need to know and what to adjust. Thanks dude!

fitmommaMA_0915

so if im 132 and im wanting to be 125... how much protein do i need???