"A calorie is a calorie" violates the second law of...
Replies
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The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
Sorry nothing to add to this post but had to respond to this ^^^^^
As a Brit who travels Europe a great deal I have to say this is a load of tosh! Italians over 'a certain age' are notoriously tubby and all the countries mentioned have there fair share of overweight people. Yes they may have less obsese people per capita than the UK and the USA but they are certainly not all "rail thin".
Maybe it has more to do with their healthy lifesytle? Skiing in France at Christmas plenty of French pensioners were out there on the slopes too with their whole family. Older people in the UK seem to think they are too old to be active in my experience, an tuck themselves away with a jigsaw and a horlicks :laugh:
lol...love this reply!!
I agree with most of it. Would also like to add that most Europeans dont go on the 3 meals and 2 snacks a day mantra that appears to prevail in the UK and USA! They also tend to lead pretty outdoorsie lives, lots of mountain hiking in the summer, tennis, swimming and skiing in the winter. Just to add, my 85 year old mother (135 lbs @ 5ft 6ins) has never had an issue with being overweight at all. She gave up tennis at aged 80 but continues to garden and on a daily basis will walk (across countryside) 3-5 miles. She eats like a bird at breakfast and lunch and then enjoys a full cordon blue meal at dinner. Never counted a calorie in her life or stepped in a gym... she just isnt greedy!
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Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
They are not rail thin because of eating bread, pasta or carbs, but because of a difference in eating culture.
The countries you mention generally tend to countries:
Where bread is still bread (flour, water, yeast, salt) and which is not full of additives and chemicals to keep it fresh for 10 or more days.
Where a very close knit family structure is in place and where people eat together as a social event. Not shovel down "food" to get back to work/facebook/tv
Where they have ONE hot meal a day. Not a Mcdonalds breakfast, Subway lunch and a big evening meal washed down with lots of fizzy drinks.
Where people have good food education in schools which forms a healthy eating foundation.
Where school kitchens are generally not run by large corporations which have as their sole aim to make as much profit as possible.
Where most meals are made from fresh ingredients and not from stuff in jars which is full of additives and modified fats.
Where most food is generally sourced locally not pre packed flown in from the other side of the world.
Where people know, understand and want to know what they eat.
Where portions are generally smaller, one might say "normal".
Where people generally don't tend to snack in between meals or in the evening.
I can give you some more reasons if you like 0 -
The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
Don't forget South Asian. When I used to live in Sri Lanka I used to eat rice 3 times a day, sometimes rice with potato curry. I was stick thin!
Now I am 5' 4", 140lbs with a BMI of 24 and everyone comments on how chubby I have become when I visit Sri Lanka! Grrrrr!
Edited to add: I must add that there is pretty much no snacking, everything is made from scatch (we never owned a microwave when I was growing up), grew most of the veegtables we ate, ate lots of fish and never had pudding.
We did however, have loads to carbs!
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Aw Matt why you trying to confuse people here? I will agree that macronutrient content impacts HOW weight is lost, but let's not make it too complicated for the general population on here attain weight loss. You know it's mostly going to be based on CICO.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
When I was a child, we didn't own a microwave, garden-raised our own veggies and my mother made our bread from scratch. She also canned and froze most of the food we ate during the winter, and our meat was purchased fresh-butchered from the farm down the road. None of us gave a hill of beans for how many calories we ate, we worked on the farm when we weren't in school and ran and played outside when we were done with chores. TV was a not-so-often thing we didn't care much about. There were no cell phones or social media.
We were thin and fit because we ate good food and were active. I grew up in Wisconsin, not France or Germany or Asia. Lifestyles have changed a lot in the last 30 years and that's a big part of the problem. A lot of us live sedentary lives and fill the time with snacks and food. We find ourselves needing to count calories now because we have jobs that keep us seated and entertainment that keeps us seated as well. Whether the whole calorie or 2/3 of it counts is moot.0 -
Classic misdirection - attention-whoring headline says one thing, content says the exact opposite thing.
Been too many rounds on this - I just don't a give a **** anymore - people are going to believe what they want to believe regardless.
THIS!0 -
The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
What are you doing, going around and spamming all the threads with this rant?
Why have you changed your name umpteen million times on MFP, and you keep talking about low carb YET you still haven't lost the weight? Just wondering. If it's working so WELL why isn't it working for you, why do you fight with people on MFP, why hasn't your miracle weight loss worked for you? And the name change thing ....? Well?
Wait, am I missing something? I don't know if Bloom had another name, but I looked at her pictures and quite frankly if they're up do date I'd been concerned that she's doing something seriously wrong if she continued to lose weight . . . she's looking pretty strong to me. This was an unneccessary personalization response without addressing if you have been spamming the threads with this rant . . .0 -
There is a study that does show people on low carb diets can consume up to 300 calories more a day than people on low calorie diets - and lose about the same weight. But the differential seems insignificant to me. It's all about adherence and success, isn't it? If you research success rates among long term weight losers, almost NONE of them got there by going on, and staying on, a low carb diet. These diets just have very poor success rates. Most people succeed by eating sensible, and reducing their portions. So in the long term, it's still all about calories, in my opinion.0
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The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
What are you doing, going around and spamming all the threads with this rant?
Why have you changed your name umpteen million times on MFP, and you keep talking about low carb YET you still haven't lost the weight? Just wondering. If it's working so WELL why isn't it working for you, why do you fight with people on MFP, why hasn't your miracle weight loss worked for you? And the name change thing ....? Well?
I changed my username once, because the first name had my real name in it. But that was months ago, so I'm not sure what you are on about.
As far as weight loss? I am doing just fine, thank you. Feel free to creep my photos for proof. :flowerforyou:0 -
The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
What are you doing, going around and spamming all the threads with this rant?
Why have you changed your name umpteen million times on MFP, and you keep talking about low carb YET you still haven't lost the weight? Just wondering. If it's working so WELL why isn't it working for you, why do you fight with people on MFP, why hasn't your miracle weight loss worked for you? And the name change thing ....? Well?
Wait, am I missing something? I don't know if Bloom had another name, but I looked at her pictures and quite frankly if they're up do date I'd been concerned that she's doing something seriously wrong if she continued to lose weight . . . she's looking pretty strong to me. This was an unneccessary personalization response without addressing if you have been spamming the threads with this rant . . .
You are not missing anything. I have gained 7 lbs since I joined MFP! Poster is clearly out of their gourd.0 -
A decent breakdown of the paper's fallacies & missteps here: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/07/a-feinman-fine-mess-of-thermodynamics.html
tl/dr summary: a calorie is still basically a calorie.
Thank you for that link!0 -
The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
Being European I can tell you I disagree.
There are a LOT of overweight Germans. a lot.
Italians are very lively and I suspect their constant fidgeting and exaggerated hand gestures have something to do with their energy output. Also young people don't seem to be as overweight but it catches up when they get older.
Can't say that French are generally super lean, but also they do not eat as many baguettes as you'd think. They take time with their food but don't eat as much in one sitting.
It's all about portion control.
I think the reason some americans (not saying you are american) find Europeans to be thin is because there is more obesity in the US, but I would suggest that is because of out of control portion sizes there. I know when I went I bought a meal in a restaurant, I needed a doggy bag on most occasions and had the leftovers for the next meal.
Edited to say I am not defending a low carb diet. I myself choose to eat about 35% calories from carbs, mainly mecause I love meat and protein and fat keep me better satiated.
I'd like to add that in addition to portion control one of the things I've noticed about Europeans while travelling is their activity level is higher. They bike and walk everywhere (which is easier in countries where things aren't as spread out!)0 -
The hell does someone changing their username over several years on a site have anything to do with their argument? Is this the new "if you can't fault their argument, correct their grammar" response?
Agreed. Sounds like the type of response from a very insecure person, looking for whatever premise to deliver a punch.0 -
The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
I do a lot of traveling. I don't know anyone with more frequent flyer miles accumulation from just flying than me. I've been to the European countries countless times. I also grew up in a European family. So many statements above are wrong. I almost spat my drink onto the floor when I read "Germans are thin". If anyone cares to read the latest European health report, which tallies the eating and smoking habits of Europeans and compares them to cardiovascular disease, obesity, etc, you will see the truth. Oh by the way, spoiler alert, the country that has the most total fat and saturated fat in their diet is .......drumroll.....Switzerland. And the country withe the least ailments (cardio, obesity, etc).........drumroll.........Switzerland. Wow, there's a shocker. Eating more FAT is healthy. And yes, by the way, I've been to Switzerland, countless times. I know what they eat.0 -
The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
I feel ten times better on Keto. I'm also not a jerk about it. I don't care if other people eat carbs.0 -
The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
What are you doing, going around and spamming all the threads with this rant?
Why have you changed your name umpteen million times on MFP, and you keep talking about low carb YET you still haven't lost the weight? Just wondering. If it's working so WELL why isn't it working for you, why do you fight with people on MFP, why hasn't your miracle weight loss worked for you? And the name change thing ....? Well?
I changed my username once, because the first name had my real name in it. But that was months ago, so I'm not sure what you are on about.
As far as weight loss? I am doing just fine, thank you. Feel free to creep my photos for proof. :flowerforyou:
I just creeped and...............SHA-WIIING!0 -
The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
I do a lot of traveling. I don't know anyone with more frequent flyer miles accumulation from just flying than me. I've been to the European countries countless times. I also grew up in a European family. So many statements above are wrong. I almost spat my drink onto the floor when I read "Germans are thin". If anyone cares to read the latest European health report, which tallies the eating and smoking habits of Europeans and compares them to cardiovascular disease, obesity, etc, you will see the truth. Oh by the way, spoiler alert, the country that has the most total fat and saturated fat in their diet is .......drumroll.....Switzerland. And the country withe the least ailments (cardio, obesity, etc).........drumroll.........Switzerland. Wow, there's a shocker. Eating more FAT is healthy. And yes, by the way, I've been to Switzerland, countless times. I know what they eat.
So what are you really trying to say? That the Swiss are immune from overeating because they eat a lot of fat apparently, or they eat less because they eat a lot of fat. Or, even better, they are immune to weight gain if they eat over their calorie expenditure?
How about this, they eat within there daily expenditure because they have good habits.?0 -
Guess you're not one of the jerks then.The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
I feel ten times better on Keto. I'm also not a jerk about it. I don't care if other people eat carbs. I have done low-carb and it didn't work out well for me or my mental health. When it works for other people that makes me happy. What doesn't make me happy is the people saying that their way is the One True Way (TM), which you will get from just about every type of diet out there. 0 -
They are not rail thin because of eating bread, pasta or carbs, but because of a difference in eating culture.
The countries you mention generally tend to countries:
Where bread is still bread (flour, water, yeast, salt) and which is not full of additives and chemicals to keep it fresh for 10 or more days.
Where a very close knit family structure is in place and where people eat together as a social event. Not shovel down "food" to get back to work/facebook/tv
Where they have ONE hot meal a day. Not a Mcdonalds breakfast, Subway lunch and a big evening meal washed down with lots of fizzy drinks.
Where people have good food education in schools which forms a healthy eating foundation.
Where school kitchens are generally not run by large corporations which have as their sole aim to make as much profit as possible.
Where most meals are made from fresh ingredients and not from stuff in jars which is full of additives and modified fats.
Where most food is generally sourced locally not pre packed flown in from the other side of the world.
Where people know, understand and want to know what they eat.
Where portions are generally smaller, one might say "normal".
Where people generally don't tend to snack in between meals or in the evening.
I can give you some more reasons if you like
Couldn't agree more!!!0 -
There is a study that does show people on low carb diets can consume up to 300 calories more a day than people on low calorie diets - and lose about the same weight. But the differential seems insignificant to me. It's all about adherence and success, isn't it? If you research success rates among long term weight losers, almost NONE of them got there by going on, and staying on, a low carb diet. These diets just have very poor success rates. Most people succeed by eating sensible, and reducing their portions. So in the long term, it's still all about calories, in my opinion.
You seem to be making the incorrect assumption that calories don't matter on a LCHF diet. They do. When you combine the potential to burn 200-300 more calories per day in ketosis with feeling more satiated/less appetite on a LCHF diet, it really can give you an advantage over, say, a carb-rich diet. I'll also throw in that what is "sensible" is up for debate, and as for success rates, all diets have a horrible success rate over the long-term including just basic caloric counting.0 -
The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
I do a lot of traveling. I don't know anyone with more frequent flyer miles accumulation from just flying than me. I've been to the European countries countless times. I also grew up in a European family. So many statements above are wrong. I almost spat my drink onto the floor when I read "Germans are thin". If anyone cares to read the latest European health report, which tallies the eating and smoking habits of Europeans and compares them to cardiovascular disease, obesity, etc, you will see the truth. Oh by the way, spoiler alert, the country that has the most total fat and saturated fat in their diet is .......drumroll.....Switzerland. And the country withe the least ailments (cardio, obesity, etc).........drumroll.........Switzerland. Wow, there's a shocker. Eating more FAT is healthy. And yes, by the way, I've been to Switzerland, countless times. I know what they eat.
So what are you really trying to say? That the Swiss are immune from overeating because they eat a lot of fat apparently, or they eat less because they eat a lot of fat. Or, even better, they are immune to weight gain if they eat over their calorie expenditure?
How about this, they eat within there daily expenditure because they have good habits.?
Is that what you got out of my post? Swiss are immune? Good grief. Must be all their yodelling, cheesy fondues and toblerone chocolate that keeps them thin, yeah that's it.0 -
There is a study that does show people on low carb diets can consume up to 300 calories more a day than people on low calorie diets - and lose about the same weight. But the differential seems insignificant to me. It's all about adherence and success, isn't it? If you research success rates among long term weight losers, almost NONE of them got there by going on, and staying on, a low carb diet. These diets just have very poor success rates. Most people succeed by eating sensible, and reducing their portions. So in the long term, it's still all about calories, in my opinion.
You seem to be making the incorrect assumption that calories don't matter on a LCHF diet. They do. When you combine the potential to burn 200-300 more calories per day in ketosis with feeling more satiated/less appetite on a LCHF diet, it really can give you an advantage over, say, a carb-rich diet. I'll also throw in that what is "sensible" is up for debate, and as for success rates, all diets have a horrible success rate over the long-term including just basic caloric counting.
^^^ this. Same goes for me, my energy level is stable throughout the day, I'm not hungry all the time, I'm satiated on LCHF.0 -
Well to that chick arguing with me then brings up Switzerland - I will agree with you there. I forgot to mention Switzerland, which is a great place, and I have also been there countless times. And LOVE IT. Yes the Swiss are thin as rails too, my BIL lives there, and I love it there. So yes, will agree with you there about the Swiss.
Oh and whomever said I was going to move to France to lose weight, that's actually not the reason we're thinking of living there part time.0 -
Well to that chick arguing with me then brings up Switzerland - I will agree with you there. I forgot to mention Switzerland, which is a great place, and I have also been there countless times. And LOVE IT. Yes the Swiss are thin as rails too, my BIL lives there, and I love it there. So yes, will agree with you there about the Swiss.
Oh and whomever said I was going to move to France to lose weight, that's actually not the reason we're thinking of living there part time.
'That chick'? I am amazed you haven't been kicked off the forums yet for your nasty attitude.0 -
German here...and totally agree...bread is great!!! And shouldn't be the reason for being overweight.0
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The no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
Except Germany has an average BMI of 27.1, which fine is lower then the USA average of 28.8, but it's not rail thin. Now France is on average 24.something and Italy is 25.something which isn't bad, but it's not rail thin either. It's more about portion sizes and enjoying food and not inhaling it.
Edit1: My numbers are from 2010, which was the newest numbers I found that had easy comparisons.
Edit2: Just wanted to say I am not a low carb person.0 -
Well to that chick arguing with me then brings up Switzerland - I will agree with you there. I forgot to mention Switzerland, which is a great place, and I have also been there countless times. And LOVE IT. Yes the Swiss are thin as rails too, my BIL lives there, and I love it there. So yes, will agree with you there about the Swiss.
Oh and whomever said I was going to move to France to lose weight, that's actually not the reason we're thinking of living there part time.
are you really arguing about bread consumption in Europe and its link to obesity (Europe also has a growing obesity problem) or just trying to blather on about all the places in Europe you've been to so we'll all think you are a worldly "chick"?0 -
I'm wondering if those who think the Europeans are "rail thin" have ever been to Europe?
I suppose if you are overweight, they might seam that way.0 -
I hate bread. Lucky me lol. Wish I could say the same for rice and potatoes...sighThe no-carb jerks are jerks, period.
Go to Paris, France. What is one of the staples of the French diet? BAGUETTES! In fact, it's quite normal to have a MORNING BUN, for lunch French cheese and a baguette and baguette with your dinner. And they are RAIL THIN!
Same with ITALY - RAIL THIN, PASTA PASTA PASTA & bread! Amazing isn't it?
And Germany - THIN, RAIL THIN, loads of potatoes, bread in that diet too. Get out of your paleo/no-carb/atkins world and actually SEE the world, thin people are everywhere, thin people who eat BREAD are everywhere.
What are you doing, going around and spamming all the threads with this rant?
Just very passionate about bread...0 -
all diets have a horrible success rate over the long-term including just basic caloric counting.
If someone goes into it with the attitude of "I'll count calories until I drop 40 lbs and then eat whatever I want again," as many do, then yes they will fail like with any other "diet."
But I think there is a much better chance of long-term success if you figure out how many calories you need per day and learn to live with that rather than having to figure it out all of the sudden once you stop drinking two shakes per day or cutting out a food group.0
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