Eating on no exercize days

parkscs

If you use TDEE method, you have to manually adjust the calories MFP provides. MFP is usually wrong, or at least crazy low.

Right, you'd use the TDEE method then manually set MFP's calories and macros.

Yeah, macros are really important, too. MFP has protein and fat set super low for women, for some reason. 1 g per pound of lean body mass (or about 0.8 g per pound of body weight) of protein a day is a good place to start.

The recommendations for protein are actually .8g per KG of body weight, not pounds. Everyone assumes we need to eat crazy amounts of protein and we don't....obviously some people like to eat more and that's fine - not knocking - just clarifying

Your 0.8 to 1 KG is recommended protein at maintenance for an average person that is sedentary. If you exercise and/or are in a deficit you need more. some studies suggest as much as 1.6 grams per lb of lean bodymass while in a deficit in order to retain lean muscle. While in a deficit your body wants to shed muscle as it uses more calories, protein, along with a smaller deficit and resistance training will tell your body to keep the muscle, so less will be lost.

I've love to see those studies. From all the studies I've read, you need about half that if you're doing resistance training and less if you aren't. All the studies I've seen suggest no benefit beyond 0.85g / lb of lean body mass if you're lifting and around 0.65g / lb of lean body mass otherwise. It probably won't hurt you to go to 1.6 g / lb but that's way beyond what your body needs.

healthybodyhealthylife

I use the TDEE method too. Before I used to do the whole 'eat back your exercise calories' thing and I hated it because I would have 1200-1400 calories to eat on those days and I would be starving. Not cool.

sagefitnessfanatic

Honestly, I don't think there is any reason to eat at or below 1200 calories. I agree with a few other comments, figure out your TDEE. Google TDEE Scooby. I pretty much eat the same amount of food daily - 2300 cals. Fuel your body and your workouts. You'll feel much better and will have better results. Also, check out eat more to weigh less. There's a MFP page and a blog. Google it. Best of luck.

Sabine_Stroehm

I use the TDEE method too. Before I used to do the whole 'eat back your exercise calories' thing and I hated it because I would have 1200-1400 calories to eat on those days and I would be starving. Not cool.

Exactly. I had never heard of "eating back" before MFP. imho, it can lead to an odd sense of things, and an odd relationship with food. I still wish we could turn it off.

healthybodyhealthylife

I use the TDEE method too. Before I used to do the whole 'eat back your exercise calories' thing and I hated it because I would have 1200-1400 calories to eat on those days and I would be starving. Not cool.

Exactly. I had never heard of "eating back" before MFP. imho, it can lead to an odd sense of things, and an odd relationship with food. I still wish we could turn it off.

Totally! It didn't really make sense to me - the notion of exercising and then eating everything you've burned. I mean, the TDEE thing is essentially creating a deficit like the MFP mthod, but the logic and the way its set out on MFP just doesn't sound good to me.

Phoenix_Warrior

I eat 1650 on non exercise days and more on exercise days. If you haven't seen these, I highly recommend!

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1080242-a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/819055-setting-your-calorie-and-macro-targets

AlwaysInMotion

I also switched over to the TDEE method. I've learned to never eat below my BMR cal level (approx 1500 cal/day). So much happier with the higher cal limit, I can think clearer, have more energy, and so on... And my weight started dropping after I upped my cals based on TDEE!

I alternate between heavy exercise days, then "rest" days (walk, do yoga class), so my daily MPF "adjustments" jump up/down like mad. Hence switching to the TDEE method and ignoring MPF allowances. As many have mentioned here and elsewhere, MFP has a tendency to grossly over-estimate cal burn for activities, so the MFP "adjustments" would wreck me anyway. I *do* eat back some exercise cals on high-intensity, long-duration workout days, but not near to the ridiculous level that MFP suggests (maybe 25% of the cals MFP gifts me back!) Life is much better since I switched!

sloth3toes

If it's not too much trouble to keep track of.... using the MFP method, and just not eating back all exercise calories, one day, and allowing yourself to go over by that much on a non-exercise day works, too. But, I live on the edge, like that.

joakool

I avoid rest days for this very reason. I either cross train or do a very easy workout. Not for everyone, I suppose...

Agreed. I can't survive on the calories I am allowed to have on non-exercise days. My choice is to over-eat or exercise. I mostly choose to exercise.

junejadesky

For some reason when I put I want to loose 1 pound a week it only gives me 50 more calories a day. Maybe I'm entering data wrong or something. I CAN do 1200 calories a day, but that's being pretty restrictive and I'm wanting to eat my hand by bedtime. With working out and 1350 to 1400 I'm not hungry.

Eat 1400 per day every day and keep your regular workouts going... you'll be good to go!

melaniecheeks

1200 calories days aren't so hard:

Breakfast - 1 egg, 2 egg whites scrambled for 100-120 cals. Add tomaotes, spinach, mushrooms for very little extra calories
Lunch - tuna with salad easy for 200-300 cals. Or a slice of ham or chicken. Or homemade soup.
Dinner - grilled chicken or fish with veg, small protion of pasta/ rice/ potaotes.

Snacks - a satsuma, some Greek yoghurt with berries, laughing cow wedge on 2 rice cakes.

kbrant7008

On rest days, I eat mostly nutrient dense low carb low glycemic index foods and lean proteins with no / low carbs after 4pm. I load up on raw whole foods (spinach, broccoli, sprouts, quinoa, etc.) plus protein (lean meat, fish, raw nuts) and eat every 2-3 hours, drink plenty of water (about a gallon a day) and I don't feel hungry or have cravings. By dropping the carbs and limiting sugar, it reduces the risk of calories being converted to fat.

cwolfman13

Personally I use the TDEE method rather than MFP. I got tired of having days where I ate back exercise calories and then having to eat like a birdie (for me @ 1850 calories) on non exercise days. With TDEE I just eat the same amount regardless...some days I have a deficit and other days I have a surplus...but it all nets out over the course of a week.

Phoenix_Warrior

On rest days, I eat mostly nutrient dense low carb low glycemic index foods and lean proteins with no / low carbs after 4pm. I load up on raw whole foods (spinach, broccoli, sprouts, quinoa, etc.) plus protein (lean meat, fish, raw nuts) and eat every 2-3 hours, drink plenty of water (about a gallon a day) and I don't feel hungry or have cravings. By dropping the carbs and limiting sugar, it reduces the risk of calories being converted to fat.

None of that is necessary and the only risk of calories being converted to fat is being in a constant calorie surplus.

erickirb

If you use TDEE method, you have to manually adjust the calories MFP provides. MFP is usually wrong, or at least crazy low.

Right, you'd use the TDEE method then manually set MFP's calories and macros.

Yeah, macros are really important, too. MFP has protein and fat set super low for women, for some reason. 1 g per pound of lean body mass (or about 0.8 g per pound of body weight) of protein a day is a good place to start.

The recommendations for protein are actually .8g per KG of body weight, not pounds. Everyone assumes we need to eat crazy amounts of protein and we don't....obviously some people like to eat more and that's fine - not knocking - just clarifying

Your 0.8 to 1 KG is recommended protein at maintenance for an average person that is sedentary. If you exercise and/or are in a deficit you need more. some studies suggest as much as 1.6 grams per lb of lean bodymass while in a deficit in order to retain lean muscle. While in a deficit your body wants to shed muscle as it uses more calories, protein, along with a smaller deficit and resistance training will tell your body to keep the muscle, so less will be lost.

I've love to see those studies. From all the studies I've read, you need about half that if you're doing resistance training and less if you aren't. All the studies I've seen suggest no benefit beyond 0.85g / lb of lean body mass if you're lifting and around 0.65g / lb of lean body mass otherwise. It probably won't hurt you to go to 1.6 g / lb but that's way beyond what your body needs.

Are the 0.85g number you showed at maintenance or caloric deficit? as a deficit requires more to maintain the muscle.

I will see if I can find any of the the studies, but it was for relatively lean (Healthy BF%) individuals in a caloric deficit, since the less fat you have the greater the chance of lean muscle loss the need for protein to retain it is greater.

before I cam across that info I saw studies that showed no extra benefit to consuming more than 1.2 grams/lb lean body mass, not sure if that was for general population, or leaner individuals or at maintenance or deficit. And not that more would hurt, but no added benefit.

parkscs

Examples of the sources I'm referring to:

http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22150425

AlwaysInMotion

On rest days, I eat mostly nutrient dense low carb low glycemic index foods and lean proteins with no / low carbs after 4pm. I load up on raw whole foods (spinach, broccoli, sprouts, quinoa, etc.) plus protein (lean meat, fish, raw nuts) and eat every 2-3 hours, drink plenty of water (about a gallon a day) and I don't feel hungry or have cravings. By dropping the carbs and limiting sugar, it reduces the risk of calories being converted to fat.

None of that is necessary and the only risk of calories being converted to fat is being in a constant calorie surplus.

I'm with Phoenix_Warrior. The nutrient dense, low GI approach is great suggestion for consuming healthier foods & ensuring a nice volume/variety of food to keep cravings at bay, but the carbs & sugar that you eat don't get converted to fat, a general energy surplus does. I take it that limiting carbs/sugar helps you stay within your macros/cal limits, which then results in less fat.

erickirb

Examples of the sources I'm referring to:

http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22150425

saying page not found for me... but that said it looks like a bodybuilding web site, so I am assuming it was done in a caloric surplus, if that is the case I would agree you don't need more as you will not lose muscle in a surplus if working out.

SabrinaLily

Everyone will have their opinions but for me, whether right or wrong, I'm on a 1200 calorie diet too. I don't skip meals on days I don't work out (and on days I do, I personally don't eat back all my calories because then it seems counterproductive). 1,200 calories isn't a TON but if you plan carefully, it can still be satisfying. I' m not really a veggie person either and can come in under that number. For me, breakfast is a bowl of Special K High Protein cereal (120 cal) with a cup of unsweetened vanilla almond milk (30 cal). I may or may not throw in a small banana. I like to snack on plain cocktail shrimp (appx 80 cal a serving), egg white patties (50 cal for a double portion) and microwaved center cut bacon (2 slices ranges from 47 calories to 60). I also love fruit such as a small gala apple (55 cal), 1/2 grapefruit (60 cal) or even this awesome apple pie ala mode pudding cup by Snack Pack (100 cal). For lunch, there's a low-cal organic peanut I use called Better n' butter, combine that with a jelly and wheat bread and you're looking at maybe 250 cal...I can get the exacts if you message me. Right now my grocery store discontinued it so I have to hunt for it online. Today I got a footlong sub from Subway. Oven roasted chicken on wheat (I throw away 1/2 the bread making it an open faced sandwich) with 3x spinach, tomatoes, oregano and Guy's sugar free BBQ sauce. The entire footlong comes in at 535 cal. Eat 1/2 at lunch and 1/2 in that awkward time between lunch and dinner. Another great option is a low calorie lean BEEF hot dog Oscar Meyer makes for 60 calories. Add a Schwebel's Lite Smart hot dog bun for another 80 calories and the hot dog was a mere 140 for the whole darn thing! They're great to have when it's coming dinner time and you over spent on calories earlier in the day. Any of the lunch items are good for dinner too but of course at dinner its easier to make fish, chicken and other low cal dishes too. I like to top my night off with a bag of 94% fat free (100 cal) popcorn which I add calorie free butter spray and butter flavored salt to. I also like a glass of A&W Diet Vanilla Cream Soda with it which is like dessert in and of itself! I may be rambling here but I wanted to show a variety of option that can help you stay full and under the 1,200 calories that don't necessarily include some of the funky things other people eat (sorry- I will NEVER like hummus or edamame!)

nmslater77

I'm also on 1200 calories a day, but I am sedentary (sit at a desk all day) and I have a lot to lose. Most days, it is not horrible to stick to my calorie goal, even with no exercise. But that is only with careful meal planning. It is so easy to blow through calories with just one semi-large meal.

I have found that I need a snack in the afternoon so that I am not starving and mean when I get home. I try to bring an apple or orange for that snack, since they are low in calories and help keep me awake (and away from the coffee pot).

parkscs

Examples of the sources I'm referring to:

http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22150425

saying page not found for me... but that said it looks like a bodybuilding web site, so I am assuming it was done in a caloric surplus, if that is the case I would agree you don't need more as you will not lose muscle in a surplus if working out.

Before you go assuming what it is and isn't, it's a review of medical studies that looked at the benefits of various levels of protein intake. I'll quote one relevant portion for you, since it seems you're unable to access the link.

A final objection that is often heard is that these values may be true during bulking or maintenance periods, but cutting requires more protein to maintain muscle mass. Walberg et al. (1988) studied cutting weightlifters and they still found 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass.

A perhaps even more telling study is by Pikosky et al. in 2008. The researchers took a group of endurance trained subjects and had them consume either 0.41 or 0.82 g/lb of protein per day. They also added a thousand calories worth of training on top of their regular exercise. So these guys were literally running on a 1000 calorie deficit while drastically increasing their training volume. Talk about a catabolic state… Of course the nitrogen balance in the low protein group plummeted. However, the protein intake of 0.82 g/lb in the other group completely protected the subjects from muscle loss. Nitrogen balance, whole-body protein turnover and protein synthesis remained unchanged.

Also, the supposed difference in nitrogen sparing effects of carbs and fat are negligible (McCargar et al. 1989; Millward, 1989). Neither actually spares protein though. Only protein spares protein. I think the protein sparing idea came from a wrong interpretation of the nitrogen balance literature showing more lean mass is lost in more severe caloric deficits. A simple explanation for that finding is that the more total mass you lose, the more lean mass you lose. No surprises there.

As such, there is simply no empirically substantiated reason to think we need more than 0.82g/lb of protein per day when cutting. If anything, you could reason the body should be able to use more protein during bulking periods, because more muscle is being built and a lot of other nutrients are ingested that may enable more protein to be used.

The only people that may actually need more protein than 0.82g/lb are people with unusually high levels of anabolic hormones. Androgen or growth hormone users definitely fall into this category, but I don’t exclude the possibility that some adolescents do too. If you reach peak testosterone production while still growing (in height), your unusually high levels of growth hormone and testosterone might increase your protein requirements. Or not. There’s no research to support it. Those rare individuals with amazing bodybuilding genetics could also qualify, but unless your father happens to be a silverback gorilla, you are most likely just like other humans in this regard.

And in case you're interested in the references used:

References

Effect of protein intake on strength, body composition and endocrine changes in strength/power athletes. Hoffman JR, Ratamess NA, Kang J, Falvo MJ, Faigenbaum AD. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2006 Dec 13;3:12-8.

Macronutrient content of a hypoenergy diet affects nitrogen retention and muscle function in weight lifters. Walberg JL, Leidy MK, Sturgill DJ, Hinkle DE, Ritchey SJ, Sebolt DR. Int J Sports Med. 1988 Aug;9(4):261-6.

Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders. Lemon PW, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1992 Aug;73(2):767-75.

Influence of protein intake and training status on nitrogen balance and lean body mass. Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1988 Jan;64(1):187-93.

Dietary protein for athletes: From requirements to optimum adaptation. Phillips SM, Van Loon LJ. J Sports Sci. 2011;29 Suppl 1:S29-38.

Protein and amino acid metabolism during and after exercise and the effects of nutrition. Rennie MJ, Tipton KD. Annu Rev Nutr. 2000;20:457-83.

Hartman, J. W., Moore, D. R., & Phillips, S. M. (2006). Resistance training reduces whole-body protein turnover and improves net protein retention in untrained young males. Applied Physiology, Nutrition and Metabolism, 31, 557–564.

Moore, D. R., Del Bel, N. C., Nizi, K. I., Hartman, J. W., Tang, J. E., Armstrong, D. et al. (2007). Resistance training reduces fasted- and fed-state leucine turnover and increases dietary nitrogen retention in previously untrained young men. Journal of Nutrition, 137, 985–991.

Effects of exercise on dietary protein requirements. Lemon PW. Int J Sport Nutr. 1998 Dec;8(4):426-47.

Effects of high-calorie supplements on body composition and muscular strength following resistance training. Rozenek R, Ward P, Long S, Garhammer J. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2002 Sep;42(3):340-7.

Increased protein maintains nitrogen balance during exercise-induced energy deficit. Pikosky MA, Smith TJ, Grediagin A, Castaneda-Sceppa C, Byerley L, Glickman EL, Young AJ. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2008 Mar;40(3):505-12.

Dietary carbohydrate-to-fat ratio: influence on whole-body nitrogen retention, substrate utilization, and hormone response in healthy male subjects. McCargar LJ, Clandinin MT, Belcastro AN, Walker K. Am J Clin Nutr. 1989 Jun;49(6):1169-78.

Macronutrient Intakes as Determinants of Dietary Protein and Amino Acid Adequacy. Millward, DJ. J. Nutr. June 1, 2004 vol. 134 no. 6 1588S-1596S.

erickirb

Examples of the sources I'm referring to:

http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22150425

saying page not found for me... but that said it looks like a bodybuilding web site, so I am assuming it was done in a caloric surplus, if that is the case I would agree you don't need more as you will not lose muscle in a surplus if working out.

Before you go assuming what it is and isn't, it's a review of medical studies that looked at the benefits of various levels of protein intake. I'll quote one relevant portion for you, since it seems you're unable to access the link.

A final objection that is often heard is that these values may be true during bulking or maintenance periods, but cutting requires more protein to maintain muscle mass. Walberg et al. (1988) studied cutting weightlifters and they still found 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass.

A perhaps even more telling study is by Pikosky et al. in 2008. The researchers took a group of endurance trained subjects and had them consume either 0.41 or 0.82 g/lb of protein per day. They also added a thousand calories worth of training on top of their regular exercise. So these guys were literally running on a 1000 calorie deficit while drastically increasing their training volume. Talk about a catabolic state… Of course the nitrogen balance in the low protein group plummeted. However, the protein intake of 0.82 g/lb in the other group completely protected the subjects from muscle loss. Nitrogen balance, whole-body protein turnover and protein synthesis remained unchanged.

Also, the supposed difference in nitrogen sparing effects of carbs and fat are negligible (McCargar et al. 1989; Millward, 1989). Neither actually spares protein though. Only protein spares protein. I think the protein sparing idea came from a wrong interpretation of the nitrogen balance literature showing more lean mass is lost in more severe caloric deficits. A simple explanation for that finding is that the more total mass you lose, the more lean mass you lose. No surprises there.

As such, there is simply no empirically substantiated reason to think we need more than 0.82g/lb of protein per day when cutting. If anything, you could reason the body should be able to use more protein during bulking periods, because more muscle is being built and a lot of other nutrients are ingested that may enable more protein to be used.

The only people that may actually need more protein than 0.82g/lb are people with unusually high levels of anabolic hormones. Androgen or growth hormone users definitely fall into this category, but I don’t exclude the possibility that some adolescents do too. If you reach peak testosterone production while still growing (in height), your unusually high levels of growth hormone and testosterone might increase your protein requirements. Or not. There’s no research to support it. Those rare individuals with amazing bodybuilding genetics could also qualify, but unless your father happens to be a silverback gorilla, you are most likely just like other humans in this regard.

And in case you're interested in the references used:

References

Effect of protein intake on strength, body composition and endocrine changes in strength/power athletes. Hoffman JR, Ratamess NA, Kang J, Falvo MJ, Faigenbaum AD. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2006 Dec 13;3:12-8.

Macronutrient content of a hypoenergy diet affects nitrogen retention and muscle function in weight lifters. Walberg JL, Leidy MK, Sturgill DJ, Hinkle DE, Ritchey SJ, Sebolt DR. Int J Sports Med. 1988 Aug;9(4):261-6.

Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders. Lemon PW, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1992 Aug;73(2):767-75.

Influence of protein intake and training status on nitrogen balance and lean body mass. Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1988 Jan;64(1):187-93.

Dietary protein for athletes: From requirements to optimum adaptation. Phillips SM, Van Loon LJ. J Sports Sci. 2011;29 Suppl 1:S29-38.

Protein and amino acid metabolism during and after exercise and the effects of nutrition. Rennie MJ, Tipton KD. Annu Rev Nutr. 2000;20:457-83.

Hartman, J. W., Moore, D. R., & Phillips, S. M. (2006). Resistance training reduces whole-body protein turnover and improves net protein retention in untrained young males. Applied Physiology, Nutrition and Metabolism, 31, 557–564.

Moore, D. R., Del Bel, N. C., Nizi, K. I., Hartman, J. W., Tang, J. E., Armstrong, D. et al. (2007). Resistance training reduces fasted- and fed-state leucine turnover and increases dietary nitrogen retention in previously untrained young men. Journal of Nutrition, 137, 985–991.

Effects of exercise on dietary protein requirements. Lemon PW. Int J Sport Nutr. 1998 Dec;8(4):426-47.

Effects of high-calorie supplements on body composition and muscular strength following resistance training. Rozenek R, Ward P, Long S, Garhammer J. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2002 Sep;42(3):340-7.

Increased protein maintains nitrogen balance during exercise-induced energy deficit. Pikosky MA, Smith TJ, Grediagin A, Castaneda-Sceppa C, Byerley L, Glickman EL, Young AJ. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2008 Mar;40(3):505-12.

Dietary carbohydrate-to-fat ratio: influence on whole-body nitrogen retention, substrate utilization, and hormone response in healthy male subjects. McCargar LJ, Clandinin MT, Belcastro AN, Walker K. Am J Clin Nutr. 1989 Jun;49(6):1169-78.

Macronutrient Intakes as Determinants of Dietary Protein and Amino Acid Adequacy. Millward, DJ. J. Nutr. June 1, 2004 vol. 134 no. 6 1588S-1596S.

Just looked back and I think it was 1.6 grams/kg body weight, slightly less than 0.8 grams per lb, but that is still double the 0.8g/kg, that I was point out as incorrect in the first place, with the recommendation of 1gram/lb of lbm.

hcumby8156

I lower my carbs and calories but my husband a PT would say not too. to eat normal because you body is refueling itself.

snhkmd2014

DON'T skip meals! That will not help your metabolism at all. On my no excercise days, which is more often than not because of a hip injury, I try to eat less "empty" calories and more fruits and veggie stuff. I also drink water to make myself less hungry.

I also downloaded a pedometer app on my phone that runs all day and make it a goal to get as close to 10,000 steps per day so that at least I am doing something.