Build Strength Prior to Beginning to Lift Weights?

WhiteRabbit1313

The only caveat I'd ask you to consider, did the trainer evaluate your muscle imbalances? There are people that I would never get under a bar until we had addressed some imbalances.

Not that she made me aware of, but I do know that I'm very right side dominant. The bar definitely shifts on me, when it gets heavy, when I do squats or bench presses.

So I would think she'd be having you drop weight until you get the form right. I can certainly see doing bodyweight/box squats to set you up for the correct movement pattern before you start your work sets, but other than that, if you can squat, you probably should. I have been having problems with squats for a few years now and I have been doing some alternate work (DB lunges, DB goblet squats, etc.) and am just getting back into barbell squats. But I ain't had nobody tell me I couldn't pull that bar off the floor, which is a good thing, because if you tell me I can't deadlift, I will cut you! :laugh:

Kettlebell is just weird though. Especially when one of your stated, specific goals is "learning the lifts". :noway:

I know. The rebellious side of me was like, "I'll do my compound lifts when I work out by myself." Lol!

The motions themselves, are exactly like the weighted squats and deadlifts, so I'm taking what I can from that instruction and will translate it to the bar soon enough.

Poofy_Goodness

Trainers are not infallible creatures of infinite wisdom.

It doesn't seem like she knows what she is talking about. You are not requesting anything dangerous. Her job is to help you reach your goals.

I started lifting weights on a barbell having only done body weight exercises previously.

jonnythan

I've told you several times to fire her. This isn't the first time you've complained about her. It's obviously not a good fit.

Yeah- I just realized this was the same poster as the cardio issue...

definitely fire her.

Yeah, my thought exactly.

You and your trainer do not belong together, period.

WhiteRabbit1313

I've told you several times to fire her. This isn't the first time you've complained about her. It's obviously not a good fit.

Yeah- I just realized this was the same poster as the cardio issue...

definitely fire her.

Yeah, my thought exactly.

You and your trainer do not belong together, period.

Please refer to the previous comments.

Leadfoot_Lewis

The weak point for anyone new to lifting is going to be their ligaments and tendons. They just don't recover as quick as your muscles being as they're not as vascular, therefore, they don't heal/gain strength as quickly as your muscles do. The solution to this is to start out slow, with good form, with a lower weight, and higher reps (yes, the opposite of what is preached here). Once you're systems are "used" to this and you've built up your ligament and tendon strength, then you can proceed on to a higher weight and lower reps.

So that said, starting with a kettlebell routine first makes absolutely no sense. As a trainer, I can not tell you how irritated I get by these stories of crappy trainers who are clueless. There are good trainers out there, and the majority who suck make us all look bad.

JoRocka

Dirty little secret in those commercial gyms is that they don't have the freedom to give you any kind of program. Their bosses have a list of programs to give and that's it. Your trainer might legitimately be sold on the idea that you can't lift a barbell until you can swing a kettle-bell *cough cough BULL**** cough cough* but more likely you're just getting a story to justify why you can only be shown this instead.

I worked at LA Fit and that's not what they did- not in any of the ones I went to.

WhiteRabbit1313

The weak point for anyone new to lifting is going to be their ligaments and tendons. They just don't recover as quick as your muscles being as they're not as vascular, therefore, they don't heal/gain strength as quickly as your muscles do. The solution to this is to start out slow, with good form, with a lower weight, and higher reps (yes, the opposite of what is preached here). Once you're systems are "used" to this and you've built up your ligament and tendon strength, then you can proceed on to a higher weight and lower reps.

So that said, starting with a kettlebell routine first makes absolutely no sense. As a trainer, I can not tell you how irritated I get by these stories of crappy trainers who are clueless. There are good trainers out there, and the majority who suck make us all look bad.

How do you know when you've built up your ligament and tendon strength?

AllanMisner

The only caveat I'd ask you to consider, did the trainer evaluate your muscle imbalances? There are people that I would never get under a bar until we had addressed some imbalances.

Not that she made me aware of, but I do know that I'm very right side dominant. The bar definitely shifts on me, when it gets heavy, when I do squats or bench presses.

So I would think she'd be having you drop weight until you get the form right. I can certainly see doing bodyweight/box squats to set you up for the correct movement pattern before you start your work sets, but other than that, if you can squat, you probably should. I have been having problems with squats for a few years now and I have been doing some alternate work (DB lunges, DB goblet squats, etc.) and am just getting back into barbell squats. But I ain't had nobody tell me I couldn't pull that bar off the floor, which is a good thing, because if you tell me I can't deadlift, I will cut you! :laugh:

Kettlebell is just weird though. Especially when one of your stated, specific goals is "learning the lifts". :noway:

That said, the way most trainers get to know your imbalances is to watch you move. Most of us have fixed exercises/movements we ask the trainee to perform (bodyweight squat is one). With pictures (or video) from the front and the side, the trainer can sit down with the trainee and show him/her what is happening and what we can do to fix it. Fixing imbalances and building muscular endurance are always task one for me. But I'm clear with the client why we're doing what we are doing and the go forward plan.

Squat imbalances are all over the place (hip flexor, adductor, abductor, glutes, hamstrings, quads). Kettlebells can be an effective way to work on muscle imbalances. Getting under a bar can be effective, depending on the imbalances. Sometimes, lowering the weight only serves to allow you to learn the lift in a poor movement pattern, which could lead to injury later.

Ask your trainer what exactly they are using the training to address. If they can't convince you that there are imbalances they're working through (because building strength to prepare for strength training is meaningless), then either they are following the one size fits all gym approach, don't know what the heck they are doing, or they are poor communicators. In any case, they aren't the trainer for you.

Leadfoot_Lewis

How do you know when you've built up your ligament and tendon strength?

Typically, I would kick up the weight every couple of weeks to start. The main thing is you don't want to jump into something too heavy right away. You can definitely start out with the compound lifts with the bar or a lighter fixed barbell (for Overhead Press) then progress from there. The "idea" that starting out with kettebells somehow will give you some kind of magical strength that is needed prior to doing compounds is idiotic thinking and makes absolutely no sense.

JoRocka

That said, the way most trainers get to know your imbalances is to watch you move. Most of us have fixed exercises/movements we ask the trainee to perform (bodyweight squat is one). With pictures (or video) from the front and the side, the trainer can sit down with the trainee and show him/her what is happening and what we can do to fix it. Fixing imbalances and building muscular endurance are always task one for me. But I'm clear with the client why we're doing what we are doing and the go forward plan.

Squat imbalances are all over the place (hip flexor, adductor, abductor, glutes, hamstrings, quads). Kettlebells can be an effective way to work on muscle imbalances. Getting under a bar can be effective, depending on the imbalances. Sometimes, lowering the weight only serves to allow you to learn the lift in a poor movement pattern, which could lead to injury later.

Ask your trainer what exactly they are using the training to address. If they can't convince you that there are imbalances they're working through (because building strength to prepare for strength training is meaningless), then either they are following the one size fits all gym approach, don't know what the heck they are doing, or they are poor communicators. In any case, they aren't the trainer for you.

but you still have a different (albiet slight) technique under the bar- doing KB squats/DL's should be a strength training supplement while she gets the barbell work in.

The trainer is dodging- I'm not even inclined to say for more money- because it's a pre-payed set session of 5. She's not doing herself any sales favors- if she was smarter she'd be doing what the client requested- so the client might be more inclined to purcahse more sessions. Instead she's forcing stupid very specific crap for no particular reason (no particular VALID reason) on someone who clearly doesn't want it

I think she's honestly just a super shi55y trainer. I don't' care what cert's she has. She sounds like she's retarded and has no idea how to work with people and just insists that they do things her way.

Fullsterkur_woman

The weak point for anyone new to lifting is going to be their ligaments and tendons. They just don't recover as quick as your muscles being as they're not as vascular, therefore, they don't heal/gain strength as quickly as your muscles do. The solution to this is to start out slow, with good form, with a lower weight, and higher reps (yes, the opposite of what is preached here). Once you're systems are "used" to this and you've built up your ligament and tendon strength, then you can proceed on to a higher weight and lower reps.

That's what my first trainer did last year. And I agree with you. But I'd been training with her for almost 6 months and had added maybe 30 pounds to my deads-- I was still stuck at 5 sets of 15 at 95#! By the time she moved out of town and handed me off to a new trainer, man, I was so effing sick of high reps I was no longer looking forward to training. I really liked her and liked working with her, but looking back, I wasn't progressing in the direction I wanted to progress, and it was killing my motivation! My new trainer had me doing higher weight with fewer reps, and within 5 months he had me hit a new 1RM of 220. When I finish my training session with him, I am sad that the time went by so fast and I am literally bouncing around until the next week's session!

But you are so right, the connective tissues are damned important to protect! I've had to do Airrosti therapy a gazillion times because mine are really crappy to begin with. That's why I *need* my muscles to be stronger-- to hold my joints together.

I'm also interested on your take on how you know when it's enough. And also, enough for what? You could have enough for powerlifting, but be way short of where you need to be for Oly lifts!

Fullsterkur_woman

How do you know when you've built up your ligament and tendon strength?

Typically, I would kick up the weight every couple of weeks to start. The main thing is you don't want to jump into something too heavy right away. You can definitely start out with the compound lifts with the bar or a lighter fixed barbell (for Overhead Press) then progress from there. The "idea" that starting out with kettebells somehow will give you some kind of magical strength that is needed prior to doing compounds is idiotic thinking and makes absolutely no sense.

QFT. I have an olympic bar that the ends are screwed off of that weighs ~22-23 pounds and it is perfect for me to warm up OHP!

Leadfoot_Lewis

I'm also interested on your take on how you know when it's enough. And also, enough for what? You could have enough for powerlifting, but be way short of where you need to be for Oly lifts!

Not sure I understand your question (?) But in reference to the Olympic Lifts, they as much if not more about technique than strength.

...and congratulations on your strength gains. VERY impressive.

WhiteRabbit1313

That said, the way most trainers get to know your imbalances is to watch you move. Most of us have fixed exercises/movements we ask the trainee to perform (bodyweight squat is one). With pictures (or video) from the front and the side, the trainer can sit down with the trainee and show him/her what is happening and what we can do to fix it. Fixing imbalances and building muscular endurance are always task one for me. But I'm clear with the client why we're doing what we are doing and the go forward plan.

Squat imbalances are all over the place (hip flexor, adductor, abductor, glutes, hamstrings, quads). Kettlebells can be an effective way to work on muscle imbalances. Getting under a bar can be effective, depending on the imbalances. Sometimes, lowering the weight only serves to allow you to learn the lift in a poor movement pattern, which could lead to injury later.

Ask your trainer what exactly they are using the training to address. If they can't convince you that there are imbalances they're working through (because building strength to prepare for strength training is meaningless), then either they are following the one size fits all gym approach, don't know what the heck they are doing, or they are poor communicators. In any case, they aren't the trainer for you.

but you still have a different (albiet slight) technique under the bar- doing KB squats/DL's should be a strength training supplement while she gets the barbell work in.

The trainer is dodging- I'm not even inclined to say for more money- because it's a pre-payed set session of 5. She's not doing herself any sales favors- if she was smarter she'd be doing what the client requested- so the client might be more inclined to purcahse more sessions. Instead she's forcing stupid very specific crap for no particular reason (no particular VALID reason) on someone who clearly doesn't want it

I think she's honestly just a super shi55y trainer. I don't' care what cert's she has. She sounds like she's retarded and has no idea how to work with people and just insists that they do things her way.

Yes. *ding, ding, ding*

After telling her I refuse to get on an elliptical or a stairmaster, she tried to put me on one, then the other, last night. I kept saying, "alternative to ____?" Finally, we got to a treadmill and rowing machine, which I actually am fine with doing if I MUST do cardio. She also told me I should come in for the 4th cardio session in between strength training, and I told her that the only way I'd do an extra cardio is if I was already strength training that day.

She's young and not listening.

AllanMisner

but you still have a different (albiet slight) technique under the bar- doing KB squats/DL's should be a strength training supplement while she gets the barbell work in.

SNIP

I think she's honestly just a super shi55y trainer. I don't' care what cert's she has. She sounds like she's retarded and has no idea how to work with people and just insists that they do things her way.

I agree you have a different form under the bar, but if you have weak adductors and hamstrings, you can work through those doing other exercises until they are in balance. Depending on overall training volume, I wouldn't get a trainee under the bar until I knew they could go through the full range of motion with good form. Yes, for some people the 45 lb bar is too much weight if they have imbalances.

What hasn't happened here, which should have, is for the trainer to teach the client about their muscle imbalances and put together a plan they can buy into. For that reason, I agree with your assessment of her trainer.

What I want the OP to consider is that she needs to know her weaknesses and improve on them. Bulling under the bar can lead to poor movement patterns that cause significant injuries. Photograph yourself doing bodyweight squats (front and side). If you can go to a full down position with proper form, then you're ready to start squatting. A good trainer would be explaining all this as you go.

JoRocka

I agree you have a different form under the bar, but if you have weak adductors and hamstrings, you can work through those doing other exercises until they are in balance. Depending on overall training volume, I wouldn't get a trainee under the bar until I knew they could go through the full range of motion with good form. Yes, for some people the 45 lb bar is too much weight if they have imbalances.

What hasn't happened here, which should have, is for the trainer to teach the client about their muscle imbalances and put together a plan they can buy into. For that reason, I agree with your assessment of her trainer.

What I want the OP to consider is that she needs to know her weaknesses and improve on them. Bulling under the bar can lead to poor movement patterns that cause significant injuries. Photograph yourself doing bodyweight squats (front and side). If you can go to a full down position with proper form, then you're ready to start squatting. A good trainer would be explaining all this as you go.

well- yes.

I concur. I don't think putting people under the BAR immediately is always the right answer. One of the trainers had a lady who was 70 something and frail- but he still worked on mobility and stuff- and was working toward functional mobility and that included PVC pipe compound training.

which was my one of my original posts- if you aren't strong enough- you can use the KB's to help build strenght- but you can't just NOT do compounds- do them with a broom stick- PVC or whatever.

NOTHING will replace working mobility and KNOWING what needs to be improved without getting under a form of bar- even if it's only a half pound plastic pipe. Putting a bar back there to work technique- very important.

FrnkLft

How do you know when you've built up your ligament and tendon strength?

Typically, I would kick up the weight every couple of weeks to start. The main thing is you don't want to jump into something too heavy right away. You can definitely start out with the compound lifts with the bar or a lighter fixed barbell (for Overhead Press) then progress from there. The "idea" that starting out with kettebells somehow will give you some kind of magical strength that is needed prior to doing compounds is idiotic thinking and makes absolutely no sense.

Don't worry too much about "knowing" when they've built up. Generally, if you start with the bar and work up in small increments, you should be fine. SL 5x5 has you doing just that. Also, make sure to warm up ahead of time.

A great warmup routine for lower body that takes about 10-15 min is DeFranco's "Limber 11". Just google it, it's free.

I keep the notes on my phone and pull it up before every session.

WhiteRabbit1313

but you still have a different (albiet slight) technique under the bar- doing KB squats/DL's should be a strength training supplement while she gets the barbell work in.

SNIP

I think she's honestly just a super shi55y trainer. I don't' care what cert's she has. She sounds like she's retarded and has no idea how to work with people and just insists that they do things her way.

I agree you have a different form under the bar, but if you have weak adductors and hamstrings, you can work through those doing other exercises until they are in balance. Depending on overall training volume, I wouldn't get a trainee under the bar until I knew they could go through the full range of motion with good form. Yes, for some people the 45 lb bar is too much weight if they have imbalances.

What hasn't happened here, which should have, is for the trainer to teach the client about their muscle imbalances and put together a plan they can buy into. For that reason, I agree with your assessment of her trainer.

What I want the OP to consider is that she needs to know her weaknesses and improve on them. Bulling under the bar can lead to poor movement patterns that cause significant injuries. Photograph yourself doing bodyweight squats (front and side). If you can go to a full down position with proper form, then you're ready to start squatting. A good trainer would be explaining all this as you go.

Since, I already know I'm depending on more strength on my right side (particularly in my upper body), what would you propose, exercise-wise, to even me out?

WhiteRabbit1313

I agree you have a different form under the bar, but if you have weak adductors and hamstrings, you can work through those doing other exercises until they are in balance. Depending on overall training volume, I wouldn't get a trainee under the bar until I knew they could go through the full range of motion with good form. Yes, for some people the 45 lb bar is too much weight if they have imbalances.

What hasn't happened here, which should have, is for the trainer to teach the client about their muscle imbalances and put together a plan they can buy into. For that reason, I agree with your assessment of her trainer.

What I want the OP to consider is that she needs to know her weaknesses and improve on them. Bulling under the bar can lead to poor movement patterns that cause significant injuries. Photograph yourself doing bodyweight squats (front and side). If you can go to a full down position with proper form, then you're ready to start squatting. A good trainer would be explaining all this as you go.

well- yes.

I concur. I don't think putting people under the BAR immediately is always the right answer. One of the trainers had a lady who was 70 something and frail- but he still worked on mobility and stuff- and was working toward functional mobility and that included PVC pipe compound training.

which was my one of my original posts- if you aren't strong enough- you can use the KB's to help build strenght- but you can't just NOT do compounds- do them with a broom stick- PVC or whatever.

NOTHING will replace working mobility and KNOWING what needs to be improved without getting under a form of bar- even if it's only a half pound plastic pipe. Putting a bar back there to work technique- very important.

Yeah, I'm not THAT weak. I walk a lot, so my core isn't horrible, and my legs are significantly stronger than my arms and not just because I'm a female. Push ups, OHP's, bench presses, that sort of thing tend to be more difficult for me.

WhiteRabbit1313

How do you know when you've built up your ligament and tendon strength?

Typically, I would kick up the weight every couple of weeks to start. The main thing is you don't want to jump into something too heavy right away. You can definitely start out with the compound lifts with the bar or a lighter fixed barbell (for Overhead Press) then progress from there. The "idea" that starting out with kettebells somehow will give you some kind of magical strength that is needed prior to doing compounds is idiotic thinking and makes absolutely no sense.

Don't worry too much about "knowing" when they've built up. Generally, if you start with the bar and work up in small increments, you should be fine. SL 5x5 has you doing just that. Also, make sure to warm up ahead of time.

A great warmup routine for lower body that takes about 10-15 min is DeFranco's "Limber 11". Just google it, it's free.

I keep the notes on my phone and pull it up before every session.

The tendon/ligament strength is what gives me pause in heading full force into a real weight lifting program. NROLFW says 3 days/week is too much, but I REALLY want to go for 4 days/week, or every other day. Everything I've read says "no" to that, and how does one know when you should switch to a 4 or 5 day program?