Switching to Stronglifts - muscle gain or just strength?

moya_rargh

I'm considering switching to Stronglifts as I'm currently doing full body workouts three times a week.

I know that the SL routine increases your strength greatly, but does it increase muscle mass along with strength? Obviously, calorie intake is a big factor but the routine almost seems too good to be true!

cmsmj1

I'm doing it on a deficit right now - have gone from nothing to 95kg deadlift, 52.5 squat, 55kg row and 35kg overhead press since the end of november - so only 7/8 weeks (I did nothing over christmas)

I am stronger - no doubt about that.

I have lost some fat - as I was anyways, as I ran few times a week

The muscle definition I have now is miles better than it was and I have put some muscle on - but not a lot. My weight is still dropping though it is getting slower..

The temptation to eat more to gain more muscle is there....must resist (for now)


edit to add - I am now 12st5 ish/79kg and 5ft11 -

moya_rargh

Thanks. I'm going to do this, I think.

I'm 11st 12 (166), 5ft 8, 39 years old and currently on 2900 cals a day, although I'm gradually losing so I might need to up my cals soon,

steve0820

I highly recommend it. If your following the program and increasing strength, while on a surplus, the gains will come, no doubt. The beauty with this strength training that it works great for weight loss, weight gain, maintenance, everything.

Pick up heavy things and put them down!

moya_rargh

I highly recommend it. If your following the program and increasing strength, while on a surplus, the gains will come, no doubt. The beauty with this strength training that it works great for weight loss, weight gain, maintenance, everything.

Pick up heavy things and put them down!

That's what appeals to me, big basic compound lifts. I wish I'd have done something like this in my 20s instead of bro splits with obligatory leg day skippage.

And Rashad Evans! Good photo, man! :happy:

steve0820

I highly recommend it. If your following the program and increasing strength, while on a surplus, the gains will come, no doubt. The beauty with this strength training that it works great for weight loss, weight gain, maintenance, everything.

Pick up heavy things and put them down!

That's what appeals to me, big basic compound lifts. I wish I'd have done something like this in my 20s instead of bro splits with obligatory leg day skippage.

And Rashad Evans! Good photo, man! :happy:

I hear ya brother!! Almost 32 years old now, I wish someone would have told me that back when I was 21, when I was doing the old BB workouts, 6 days a week split/2 hour sessions. Sure I got results, but nothing like what this kind of strength training has done for me.

Thanks! Just hate how small he makes me look hahaha, considering he started his career as a Heavyweight, and is a pretty big LHW now.

GradatimFerociter

You will gain muscle on SS assuming your nutrition is on point, but it isn't the optimum way to do so.

I highly recommend it. If your following the program and increasing strength, while on a surplus, the gains will come, no doubt. The beauty with this strength training that it works great for weight loss, weight gain, maintenance, everything.

Pick up heavy things and put them down!

That's what appeals to me, big basic compound lifts. I wish I'd have done something like this in my 20s instead of bro splits with obligatory leg day skippage.

And Rashad Evans! Good photo, man! :happy:

I hear ya brother!! Almost 32 years old now, I wish someone would have told me that back when I was 21, when I was doing the old BB workouts, 6 days a week split/2 hour sessions. Sure I got results, but nothing like what this kind of strength training has done for me.

Thanks! Just hate how small he makes me look hahaha, considering he started his career as a Heavyweight, and is a pretty big LHW now.

Way back on TUF 2. I assume you've seen it. Rashad is a great fighter and he is looking good of late.

That said, I did want Chael to win.

3laine75

Strength gains at deficit, strength and muscle gain at surplus:)

It is a great programme, you'll love it.

ETA: definitely not too good to be true, I managed to go from 0kg - 60kg squat and 40kg - 90kg deadlift, at deficit before stalling out and upping cals. No personal experience (of any significant) hyper trophy on it but have seen posts from plenty who have.

moya_rargh

This will be SO on once I'm over this bug and I'm back out of bed!

steve0820

You will gain muscle on SS assuming your nutrition is on point, but it isn't the optimum way to do so.

I highly recommend it. If your following the program and increasing strength, while on a surplus, the gains will come, no doubt. The beauty with this strength training that it works great for weight loss, weight gain, maintenance, everything.

Pick up heavy things and put them down!

That's what appeals to me, big basic compound lifts. I wish I'd have done something like this in my 20s instead of bro splits with obligatory leg day skippage.

And Rashad Evans! Good photo, man! :happy:

I hear ya brother!! Almost 32 years old now, I wish someone would have told me that back when I was 21, when I was doing the old BB workouts, 6 days a week split/2 hour sessions. Sure I got results, but nothing like what this kind of strength training has done for me.

Thanks! Just hate how small he makes me look hahaha, considering he started his career as a Heavyweight, and is a pretty big LHW now.

Way back on TUF 2. I assume you've seen it. Rashad is a great fighter and he is looking good of late.

That said, I did want Chael to win.

He has looked good lately. When that pic was taken, it was before the Lil Nog fight, and there was even talks of him going down to 185, which I think would be tough.

Chael only gets motivated to fight guys he doesn't respect, the Rashad fight was tough for him, just like the Stann fight. But Andy and Wandy on the other hand hahaha

cajuntank

It basically boils down to volume and time under tension. You will have newbie gains (strength and muscle) if you are still early on in your training or had trained before and coming back into the game regardless of being in a surplus or deficit, but those gains are short lived. A caloric deficit will be a tailwind and make things tougher, especially gaining muscle as there is no surplus to build muscle with...but that's not to say you still cannot get stronger. I have been in a caloric deficit for over a year and have gone from being able to squat 135lbs for 5 reps to squatting 370lbs for 5 reps. 5x5 (for 25 total reps) programs will build both strength and(then) muscle its just the higher volume reps ranges, say *3-5 sets of 8-12 (24-60 total reps) reps shift the "priority", if you will, to building muscle (assuming your eating in surplus) and(then) strength due to the additional volume and time under tension.

Trust me, there is a lot of muscle on those power lifters that work in that lower rep and set range, but its covered by fat, so stick with the 5x5 to get strong as you can and then if you choose to go with a muscle building program later on, you will be able to move some weight which will get you better results when you up the volume and reps.



*Note: I put the lower end set and rep range as you would normally do that range for isolation muscles like biceps, triceps, etc... and not major muscle groups like chest or back or legs which need more sets/reps and thusly more volume to grow better.

Warchortle

Central nervous system adaptation only lasts for so long, so really once you become proficient at the lift you'll have to build muscle to meet the demand or strain you're placing on your body.

If you're newer you can meet this demand, by improving the mechanics of the lift and neural adaptation which don't involve muscle gains.

quellybelly

From my experience, a little bit of both but mostly strength gains good luck!

moya_rargh

So this is only a short term routine? Move onto another routine after 12 weeks? What would be the best routine for muscle growth to move onto afterwards?

BusyRaeNOTBusty

It basically boils down to volume and time under tension. You will have newbie gains (strength and muscle) if you are still early on in your training or had trained before and coming back into the game regardless of being in a surplus or deficit, but those gains are short lived. A caloric deficit will be a tailwind and make things tougher, especially gaining muscle as there is no surplus to build muscle with...but that's not to say you still cannot get stronger. I have been in a caloric deficit for over a year and have gone from being able to squat 135lbs for 5 reps to squatting 370lbs for 5 reps. 5x5 (for 25 total reps) programs will build both strength and(then) muscle its just the higher volume reps ranges, say *3-5 sets of 8-12 (24-60 total reps) reps shift the "priority", if you will, to building muscle (assuming your eating in surplus) and(then) strength due to the additional volume and time under tension.

Trust me, there is a lot of muscle on those power lifters that work in that lower rep and set range, but its covered by fat, so stick with the 5x5 to get strong as you can and then if you choose to go with a muscle building program later on, you will be able to move some weight which will get you better results when you up the volume and reps.



*Note: I put the lower end set and rep range as you would normally do that range for isolation muscles like biceps, triceps, etc... and not major muscle groups like chest or back or legs which need more sets/reps and thusly more volume to grow better.

This.

I haven't done this program but since Lyle McDonald is one of the best out there it's probably good.

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=1696

auddii

I highly recommend it. If your following the program and increasing strength, while on a surplus, the gains will come, no doubt. The beauty with this strength training that it works great for weight loss, weight gain, maintenance, everything.

Pick up heavy things and put them down!

That's what appeals to me, big basic compound lifts. I wish I'd have done something like this in my 20s instead of bro splits with obligatory leg day skippage.

And Rashad Evans! Good photo, man! :happy:

I hear ya brother!! Almost 32 years old now, I wish someone would have told me that back when I was 21, when I was doing the old BB workouts, 6 days a week split/2 hour sessions. Sure I got results, but nothing like what this kind of strength training has done for me.

Thanks! Just hate how small he makes me look hahaha, considering he started his career as a Heavyweight, and is a pretty big LHW now.

I've been doing SL on a deficit, and I love the simplicity of the program and how fast it is. I've had to deload to work on form, as form's going to be key to progressing and building strength and mass.

I'm often entertain by a lot of the guys lifting at the gym who do splits and lots of isolation work. Besides that their form is terrible when they do try the big lifts, they're there before me and still going when I leave. And on Fridays I'm at the gym twice (lifting in the morning, cardio in the afternoon), and one guy was there both times. Again, longer than me. Yuck.

auddii

So this is only a short term routine? Move onto another routine after 12 weeks? What would be the best routine for muscle growth to move onto afterwards?

It's set to be a "12 week program", but that I think is mostly so he can market it as a program. I've been doing it for a year or so. It seems like most people say to stick with it until you stop seeing gains, then consider an intermediate program (Wendler and Mad Cow are thrown around a lot, but I have no experience with intermediate programs yet).

moya_rargh

Cool. The madcow 5x5 sounds like the most logical progression.

GradatimFerociter

You will gain muscle on SS assuming your nutrition is on point, but it isn't the optimum way to do so.

I highly recommend it. If your following the program and increasing strength, while on a surplus, the gains will come, no doubt. The beauty with this strength training that it works great for weight loss, weight gain, maintenance, everything.

Pick up heavy things and put them down!

That's what appeals to me, big basic compound lifts. I wish I'd have done something like this in my 20s instead of bro splits with obligatory leg day skippage.

And Rashad Evans! Good photo, man! :happy:

I hear ya brother!! Almost 32 years old now, I wish someone would have told me that back when I was 21, when I was doing the old BB workouts, 6 days a week split/2 hour sessions. Sure I got results, but nothing like what this kind of strength training has done for me.

Thanks! Just hate how small he makes me look hahaha, considering he started his career as a Heavyweight, and is a pretty big LHW now.

Way back on TUF 2. I assume you've seen it. Rashad is a great fighter and he is looking good of late.

That said, I did want Chael to win.

He has looked good lately. When that pic was taken, it was before the Lil Nog fight, and there was even talks of him going down to 185, which I think would be tough.

Chael only gets motivated to fight guys he doesn't respect, the Rashad fight was tough for him, just like the Stann fight. But Andy and Wandy on the other hand hahaha

Yea Chael even said after the fight that hen does all his best work at 185. Rashad isn't an undersized 205er at all I think he has a good chance of making a run at the title though I can't really see him beating JJ.

Chael beat the snot out of AS for so much of that first fight - I would really have liked to see him as champ even if just for a short while. Still, his talents have opened so many other doors for him at this point.

It is very easy to like Rashad, especially after seeing him coach against Rampage who, while interesting, is not that easy to like.

Still - my favorite fighter is probably Roy Nelson. I'm jumping on the Hunt Vs Nelson wagon but I think Hunt has bought himself another top fight after drawing with TRT Bigfoot.

GradatimFerociter

Cool. The madcow 5x5 sounds like the most logical progression.

There is no reason to attach a limit to it. Eventually you will stop being able to progress even after a deload or two and then you can look for another program. Or if you just find it boring. Some people get a lot of mileage from SS as long as they don't try to ego lift and end up 1/4 squatting, and even then with far more weight than they can manage.

You can acquire a copy of the book if you like - it is worth a read.

auddii

Cool. The madcow 5x5 sounds like the most logical progression.

There is no reason to attach a limit to it. Eventually you will stop being able to progress even after a deload or two and then you can look for another program. Or if you just find it boring. Some people get a lot of mileage from SS as long as they don't try to ego lift and end up 1/4 squatting, and even then with far more weight than they can manage.

You can acquire a copy of the book if you like - it is worth a read.

Agreed. And after several deloads, SL suggests switching to 3x5 as part of the program progression. An intermediate program will stop linear progression, so cutting an initial program short too early, you'll just miss out on a lot of potential gains.

quellybelly

Cool. The madcow 5x5 sounds like the most logical progression.

There is no reason to attach a limit to it. Eventually you will stop being able to progress even after a deload or two and then you can look for another program. Or if you just find it boring.

^ this. You don't necessarily have to do it for x number of weeks. I eventually switched because I stopped being able to progress and also because I got bored and wanted to try something new and challenge myself

3laine75

So this is only a short term routine? Move onto another routine after 12 weeks? What would be the best routine for muscle growth to move onto afterwards?

Some people move on and some stick with it for months/years. I changed to wendlers 5/3/1 and that's working better for me (I have crazy weak upper body and couldn't get past 25/30 on OHP and bench) - it's based on the same lifts - one a day + accessories exercises. It's a slowered progression than SL, so I'm finally getting some gains on those lifts but that's me.

Loads of people can progress a lot further on SL. Give it a bash, that's the only way you'll know.

monty619

with strength comes muscular hypertrophy.. the nervous system can only adapt so much before you NEED to gain muscle in order to have strength gains.

cajuntank

Yep, you keep making linear progression as much as you can (i.e. adding weight to every workout) for 5x5, then at 3x5, then finally at 1x5. Of course all of these sets and reps do not take into account warmup sets and reps. http://warmupreps.com/#
I think I ran mine (might be wrong without going back to my spreadsheet) for about 30 weeks before I had to move squatting over to Madcow and a few weeks later in finishing my progression on the rest of the compounds at 1x5 to Madcow.

Madcow is a good next step beyond that as it introduces a system based on Bill Starr's 5x5 routine that called for a Heavy Medium Light system. You squat, bench, and row (or power-clean) heavy on say Monday, Wednesday you squat lighter (at 80% of training max for that week), press heavy but with fewer sets, and deadlift heavy. Then on Friday, you squat, bench, and row (or power-clean) at 90% of training max except a heavier triple which would be 5-10lbs heavier than Monday's max training weight. You then have a set of 8 reps called a back-off set to introduce some additional volume. You also have some accessory work allowed which includes some AB work, chins/pull-ups (which could have been done in Stronglifts as well), hypextensions, and some "beach work"... tricep and bicep focused sets.

The main concept in any good program is it will have protocol for enough volume, intensity, frequency, and de-loading as necessary to meet the goals of the program. All you have to do is stick to it and learn what works for you over time.

grantdumas7

Another good step is The Texas Method. Also another program to look at is ICF 5x5. It's similar to SL but does add a few exercises for arms.

alyhuggan

Personally I've done variants of a push pull leg split for over a year now and have seen insane results with both.

No matter if you are bodybuilding or strength training you will gain the other as a byproduct anyway. Strength training is pretty much guaranteed to put on muscle and bodybuilding is guaranteed to gain you strength, it's just bodybuilding tends to be better at putting on muscle when you know your body and strength training is much better for building up your lifts. In a deficit your lifts will go up but I am certain it's mainly due to form. For example on a deficit mine stalled at around 330lb as a one rep max for almost 6-7 months and after bulking I'm now 5lb shy of a 400lb deadlift. Personal preference really, however it's near impossible to look like Ogus or Jones by strength training.

moya_rargh

Cool. At my age, I'm not trying for the Jeff Seid look. As long as I gain muscle/strength and burn fat I'll be happy!

alyhuggan

Cool. At my age, I'm not trying for the Jeff Seid look. As long as I gain muscle/strength and burn fat I'll be happy!

It's near impossible to do both. You will definitely see strength gains and burn fat for a good few months+ at least since your form will be getting much better and your muscles used to the lifts, however this will eventually slow and then come to a stop. It's unlikely you will gain much/any muscle during this period however always lift whilst cutting to retain as much muscle as possible.

moya_rargh

Cool. At my age, I'm not trying for the Jeff Seid look. As long as I gain muscle/strength and burn fat I'll be happy!

It's near impossible to do both. You will definitely see strength gains and burn fat for a good few months+ at least since your form will be getting much better and your muscles used to the lifts, however this will eventually slow and then come to a stop. It's unlikely you will gain much/any muscle during this period however always lift whilst cutting to retain as much muscle as possible.

So you DON'T gain muscle on Stronglifts?

alyhuggan

Cool. At my age, I'm not trying for the Jeff Seid look. As long as I gain muscle/strength and burn fat I'll be happy!

It's near impossible to do both. You will definitely see strength gains and burn fat for a good few months+ at least since your form will be getting much better and your muscles used to the lifts, however this will eventually slow and then come to a stop. It's unlikely you will gain much/any muscle during this period however always lift whilst cutting to retain as much muscle as possible.

So you DON'T gain muscle on Stronglifts?

Not going to go into newbie gains as I haven't looked it up but in general while on a deficit you won't gain muscle doing anything. However whilst bulking and doing any strength programs you are pretty much guaranteed to put on muscle. In fact with my main lifts I still use a lower rep range. Overhead press I generally do 3-5, bench 4-8, deadlifts 1-8 and squats I do up to 8.