It's NOT always as simple as a deficit
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OP I disagree, it's like saying a car engine will burn more gas on one trip than on another. Engine performance will decrease with with say low octane fuel versus high octane fuel. But not by a lot, and the cost of the more expensive fuel will drive your miles per DOLLAR lower. Eating whole and clean comes at a cost.0
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And every single one of you has missed the point of the post.
There ARE people where this isn't the case. Medical issues? Maybe! Other issues, perhaps. EITHER WAY, they (we) need support and motivation too.
I totally agree with you - some of us (like me) do have medically diagnosed health issues that make it difficult to lose. Some of us take medications that cause weight gain - just look at the side effects listed with the drug inserts. Some of us even take multiple medications by prescription that cause weight gain. All of this combined makes it difficult to lose, no matter how diligent we are. I tend to get really frustrated with sweeping generalities.
And you have my support!0 -
I can't really see an argument here at all, I'm just pointing out the anecdotal evidence given here is not quite the extreme diet the title suggests. Yeah, he was getting enough protein to not put his health at risk and he was obviously not planning to build muscle during his experiment. He lost weight because he put himself through a VLC diet but despite the junk he was still getting a balance of macros, albeit not optimal. But there again I thought you had been arguing that there was no such thing as optimal macros for weight loss?
of course he wasn't going to gain muscle- he was eating at a deficit.0 -
The professor drank a protein shake every day. I highly doubt it was what we would consider enough protein for a grown man (in fact he was publicly criticized for low protein intake). The remainder of his diet was junk food - lots of sugar and what most would consider unhealthy fats. But he still lost weight and improved his cholesterol markers.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
He had enough protein http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/protein and probably more than most people who eat junk food as their staple diet. It looks like he was getting just under 20% of his calories from protein, the minimum recommendation is 10%.
FDA recommendations are outdated. There are new studies that show 1g/lb lean body mass is optimal during calorie restriction. How does any of this show that I do not understand the dynamics of weight loss?? Honestly, I think you are having to dig REAL deep to find an argument. It's to the point of absurdity. :ohwell:
I can't really see an argument here at all, I'm just pointing out the anecdotal evidence given here is not quite the extreme diet the title suggests. Yeah, he was getting enough protein to not put his health at risk and he was obviously not planning to build muscle during his experiment. He lost weight because he put himself through a VLC diet but despite the junk he was still getting a balance of macros, albeit not optimal. But there again I thought you had been arguing that there was no such thing as optimal macros for weight loss?
No, you are confused. I said all that is needed is a calorie deficit to lose weight. And that is true.0 -
I can't really see an argument here at all, I'm just pointing out the anecdotal evidence given here is not quite the extreme diet the title suggests. Yeah, he was getting enough protein to not put his health at risk and he was obviously not planning to build muscle during his experiment. He lost weight because he put himself through a VLC diet but despite the junk he was still getting a balance of macros, albeit not optimal. But there again I thought you had been arguing that there was no such thing as optimal macros for weight loss?
of course he wasn't going to gain muscle- he was eating at a deficit.
Like I said ...0 -
The professor drank a protein shake every day. I highly doubt it was what we would consider enough protein for a grown man (in fact he was publicly criticized for low protein intake). The remainder of his diet was junk food - lots of sugar and what most would consider unhealthy fats. But he still lost weight and improved his cholesterol markers.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
He had enough protein http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/protein and probably more than most people who eat junk food as their staple diet. It looks like he was getting just under 20% of his calories from protein, the minimum recommendation is 10%.
FDA recommendations are outdated. There are new studies that show 1g/lb lean body mass is optimal during calorie restriction. How does any of this show that I do not understand the dynamics of weight loss?? Honestly, I think you are having to dig REAL deep to find an argument. It's to the point of absurdity. :ohwell:
I can't really see an argument here at all, I'm just pointing out the anecdotal evidence given here is not quite the extreme diet the title suggests. Yeah, he was getting enough protein to not put his health at risk and he was obviously not planning to build muscle during his experiment. He lost weight because he put himself through a VLC diet but despite the junk he was still getting a balance of macros, albeit not optimal. But there again I thought you had been arguing that there was no such thing as optimal macros for weight loss?
No, you are confused. I said all that is needed is a calorie deficit to lose weight. And that is true.
I am confused, because you just mentioned studies that show a specific protein intake optimises calorie restricted diets. I think you meant this optimises building muscle mass not calorie restriction!0 -
The professor drank a protein shake every day. I highly doubt it was what we would consider enough protein for a grown man (in fact he was publicly criticized for low protein intake). The remainder of his diet was junk food - lots of sugar and what most would consider unhealthy fats. But he still lost weight and improved his cholesterol markers.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
He had enough protein http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/protein and probably more than most people who eat junk food as their staple diet. It looks like he was getting just under 20% of his calories from protein, the minimum recommendation is 10%.
FDA recommendations are outdated. There are new studies that show 1g/lb lean body mass is optimal during calorie restriction. How does any of this show that I do not understand the dynamics of weight loss?? Honestly, I think you are having to dig REAL deep to find an argument. It's to the point of absurdity. :ohwell:
I can't really see an argument here at all, I'm just pointing out the anecdotal evidence given here is not quite the extreme diet the title suggests. Yeah, he was getting enough protein to not put his health at risk and he was obviously not planning to build muscle during his experiment. He lost weight because he put himself through a VLC diet but despite the junk he was still getting a balance of macros, albeit not optimal. But there again I thought you had been arguing that there was no such thing as optimal macros for weight loss?
No, you are confused. I said all that is needed is a calorie deficit to lose weight. And that is true.
I am confused, because you just mentioned studies that show a specific protein intake optimises calorie restricted diets. I think you meant this optimises building muscle mass not calorie restriction!
No, she was correct. In order to maintain lean mass while restricting calories, protein requirements have been shown to be in excess of 1 gram per lb of lean mass. Protein requirements in absolute grams tend to go up as calorie intake goes down.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/240927650 -
The professor drank a protein shake every day. I highly doubt it was what we would consider enough protein for a grown man (in fact he was publicly criticized for low protein intake). The remainder of his diet was junk food - lots of sugar and what most would consider unhealthy fats. But he still lost weight and improved his cholesterol markers.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
He had enough protein http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/protein and probably more than most people who eat junk food as their staple diet. It looks like he was getting just under 20% of his calories from protein, the minimum recommendation is 10%.
FDA recommendations are outdated. There are new studies that show 1g/lb lean body mass is optimal during calorie restriction. How does any of this show that I do not understand the dynamics of weight loss?? Honestly, I think you are having to dig REAL deep to find an argument. It's to the point of absurdity. :ohwell:
I can't really see an argument here at all, I'm just pointing out the anecdotal evidence given here is not quite the extreme diet the title suggests. Yeah, he was getting enough protein to not put his health at risk and he was obviously not planning to build muscle during his experiment. He lost weight because he put himself through a VLC diet but despite the junk he was still getting a balance of macros, albeit not optimal. But there again I thought you had been arguing that there was no such thing as optimal macros for weight loss?
No, you are confused. I said all that is needed is a calorie deficit to lose weight. And that is true.
I am confused, because you just mentioned studies that show a specific protein intake optimises calorie restricted diets. I think you meant this optimises building muscle mass not calorie restriction!
You are not going to build muscle while in a calorie deficit. :huh:0 -
The professor drank a protein shake every day. I highly doubt it was what we would consider enough protein for a grown man (in fact he was publicly criticized for low protein intake). The remainder of his diet was junk food - lots of sugar and what most would consider unhealthy fats. But he still lost weight and improved his cholesterol markers.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
He had enough protein http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/protein and probably more than most people who eat junk food as their staple diet. It looks like he was getting just under 20% of his calories from protein, the minimum recommendation is 10%.
FDA recommendations are outdated. There are new studies that show 1g/lb lean body mass is optimal during calorie restriction. How does any of this show that I do not understand the dynamics of weight loss?? Honestly, I think you are having to dig REAL deep to find an argument. It's to the point of absurdity. :ohwell:
I can't really see an argument here at all, I'm just pointing out the anecdotal evidence given here is not quite the extreme diet the title suggests. Yeah, he was getting enough protein to not put his health at risk and he was obviously not planning to build muscle during his experiment. He lost weight because he put himself through a VLC diet but despite the junk he was still getting a balance of macros, albeit not optimal. But there again I thought you had been arguing that there was no such thing as optimal macros for weight loss?
No, you are confused. I said all that is needed is a calorie deficit to lose weight. And that is true.
I am confused, because you just mentioned studies that show a specific protein intake optimises calorie restricted diets. I think you meant this optimises building muscle mass not calorie restriction!
You are not going to build muscle while in a calorie deficit. :huh:
Again, I know and never said anything of the sort!0 -
I think most people are arguing the same thing here. It is about creating a deficit but that deficit need not always be simple.
BMR calculators and the like probably work well for a lot of people out there but in reality they can have up to 20% variance in their results. Everyone's metabolism works differently and a lot of this is down to hormones; thyroid, PCOS and diabetes are examples of hormone imbalances causing dysfunction, but often these imbalances can be asymptomatic and thus very hard to factor into your BMR calculations. There are also unexplained reasons for a variation of almost 30% in BMR between similar individuals.
Here's a very interesting article if you have access: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.1086/427059?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103339568197
Also: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/5/941.long
So then you adjust. Mfp suggests 1450 for me to lose a pound a week. I moved myself to 1650 then 1700 then 1800 to average that pound a week.
Tweaking calories is a fairly simple process: anyone with basic observational skills can do it.
Not losing weight? Adjust down!
Losing too much? Adjust up!
Repeat until desired rate is found.
Damn. How complicated.
Where it becomes complicated is when your calorie intake is already only 800, 900, 1200 and you still can't lose weight. How low should you adjust?0 -
I read 6 pages and couldn't take it anymore.
All I know is all the hottest people on this site follow IIFYM. That's good enough for me!
lol0 -
I think most people are arguing the same thing here. It is about creating a deficit but that deficit need not always be simple.
BMR calculators and the like probably work well for a lot of people out there but in reality they can have up to 20% variance in their results. Everyone's metabolism works differently and a lot of this is down to hormones; thyroid, PCOS and diabetes are examples of hormone imbalances causing dysfunction, but often these imbalances can be asymptomatic and thus very hard to factor into your BMR calculations. There are also unexplained reasons for a variation of almost 30% in BMR between similar individuals.
Here's a very interesting article if you have access: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.1086/427059?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103339568197
Also: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/5/941.long
So then you adjust. Mfp suggests 1450 for me to lose a pound a week. I moved myself to 1650 then 1700 then 1800 to average that pound a week.
Tweaking calories is a fairly simple process: anyone with basic observational skills can do it.
Not losing weight? Adjust down!
Losing too much? Adjust up!
Repeat until desired rate is found.
Damn. How complicated.
Where it becomes complicated is when your calorie intake is already only 800, 900, 1200 and you still can't lose weight. How low should you adjust?
I've never seen anyone demonstrate consistent, solid logging long-term at that level without weight loss. Ever.0 -
The professor drank a protein shake every day. I highly doubt it was what we would consider enough protein for a grown man (in fact he was publicly criticized for low protein intake). The remainder of his diet was junk food - lots of sugar and what most would consider unhealthy fats. But he still lost weight and improved his cholesterol markers.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
He had enough protein http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/protein and probably more than most people who eat junk food as their staple diet. It looks like he was getting just under 20% of his calories from protein, the minimum recommendation is 10%.
FDA recommendations are outdated. There are new studies that show 1g/lb lean body mass is optimal during calorie restriction. How does any of this show that I do not understand the dynamics of weight loss?? Honestly, I think you are having to dig REAL deep to find an argument. It's to the point of absurdity. :ohwell:
I can't really see an argument here at all, I'm just pointing out the anecdotal evidence given here is not quite the extreme diet the title suggests. Yeah, he was getting enough protein to not put his health at risk and he was obviously not planning to build muscle during his experiment. He lost weight because he put himself through a VLC diet but despite the junk he was still getting a balance of macros, albeit not optimal. But there again I thought you had been arguing that there was no such thing as optimal macros for weight loss?
No, you are confused. I said all that is needed is a calorie deficit to lose weight. And that is true.
I am confused, because you just mentioned studies that show a specific protein intake optimises calorie restricted diets. I think you meant this optimises building muscle mass not calorie restriction!
No, she was correct. In order to maintain lean mass while restricting calories, protein requirements have been shown to be in excess of 1 gram per lb of lean mass. Protein requirements in absolute grams tend to go up as calorie intake goes down.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24092765
Therefore, if there is no difference in weight loss between eating at a calorie deficit by varying macros, but eating higher protein maintains lean mass, this means macros DO matter in fat loss. In other words you will lose more fat by eating a higher protein diet because the weight lost is less likely to be lean mass.
Now we are getting somewhere.0 -
I like to focus on eating the right foods. Ideally I will stay within my caloric guide lines. But I am not going to beat myself up if I go over and am still eating well. I agree that the math is pretty straightforward, but that's not the whole story.
Everyone is different. Different things work for different people. There is not point in the negativity.0 -
I think most people are arguing the same thing here. It is about creating a deficit but that deficit need not always be simple.
BMR calculators and the like probably work well for a lot of people out there but in reality they can have up to 20% variance in their results. Everyone's metabolism works differently and a lot of this is down to hormones; thyroid, PCOS and diabetes are examples of hormone imbalances causing dysfunction, but often these imbalances can be asymptomatic and thus very hard to factor into your BMR calculations. There are also unexplained reasons for a variation of almost 30% in BMR between similar individuals.
Here's a very interesting article if you have access: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.1086/427059?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103339568197
Also: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/5/941.long
So then you adjust. Mfp suggests 1450 for me to lose a pound a week. I moved myself to 1650 then 1700 then 1800 to average that pound a week.
Tweaking calories is a fairly simple process: anyone with basic observational skills can do it.
Not losing weight? Adjust down!
Losing too much? Adjust up!
Repeat until desired rate is found.
Damn. How complicated.
Where it becomes complicated is when your calorie intake is already only 800, 900, 1200 and you still can't lose weight. How low should you adjust?
I've never seen anyone demonstrate consistent, solid logging long-term at that level without weight loss. Ever.
Not true eventually your metabolism will adjust and you will not lose.
There are plenty of people on these boards that have started their diets at 1200 calories, lost a lot (but not all their weight) only to have it stall before they reached their goal weight and their only choice was to restrict more.... not healthy!0 -
I think most people are arguing the same thing here. It is about creating a deficit but that deficit need not always be simple.
BMR calculators and the like probably work well for a lot of people out there but in reality they can have up to 20% variance in their results. Everyone's metabolism works differently and a lot of this is down to hormones; thyroid, PCOS and diabetes are examples of hormone imbalances causing dysfunction, but often these imbalances can be asymptomatic and thus very hard to factor into your BMR calculations. There are also unexplained reasons for a variation of almost 30% in BMR between similar individuals.
Here's a very interesting article if you have access: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.1086/427059?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103339568197
Also: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/5/941.long
So then you adjust. Mfp suggests 1450 for me to lose a pound a week. I moved myself to 1650 then 1700 then 1800 to average that pound a week.
Tweaking calories is a fairly simple process: anyone with basic observational skills can do it.
Not losing weight? Adjust down!
Losing too much? Adjust up!
Repeat until desired rate is found.
Damn. How complicated.
Where it becomes complicated is when your calorie intake is already only 800, 900, 1200 and you still can't lose weight. How low should you adjust?
I've never seen anyone demonstrate consistent, solid logging long-term at that level without weight loss. Ever.
Not true eventually your metabolism will adjust and you will not lose.
There are plenty of people on these boards that have started their diets at 1200 calories, lost a lot (but not all their weight) only to have it stall before they reached their goal weight and their only choice was to restrict more.... not healthy!
Even in extreme circumstances BMR will only be suppressed so far.
But, the point stands: there really aren't any people that fit that description. There are plenty of people who SAY they do, but their diaries simply don't stand up to the scrutiny. Either they have incomplete logs, missing days, are obviously not weighing portions, etc.0 -
The professor drank a protein shake every day. I highly doubt it was what we would consider enough protein for a grown man (in fact he was publicly criticized for low protein intake). The remainder of his diet was junk food - lots of sugar and what most would consider unhealthy fats. But he still lost weight and improved his cholesterol markers.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
He had enough protein http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/protein and probably more than most people who eat junk food as their staple diet. It looks like he was getting just under 20% of his calories from protein, the minimum recommendation is 10%.
FDA recommendations are outdated. There are new studies that show 1g/lb lean body mass is optimal during calorie restriction. How does any of this show that I do not understand the dynamics of weight loss?? Honestly, I think you are having to dig REAL deep to find an argument. It's to the point of absurdity. :ohwell:
I can't really see an argument here at all, I'm just pointing out the anecdotal evidence given here is not quite the extreme diet the title suggests. Yeah, he was getting enough protein to not put his health at risk and he was obviously not planning to build muscle during his experiment. He lost weight because he put himself through a VLC diet but despite the junk he was still getting a balance of macros, albeit not optimal. But there again I thought you had been arguing that there was no such thing as optimal macros for weight loss?
No, you are confused. I said all that is needed is a calorie deficit to lose weight. And that is true.
I am confused, because you just mentioned studies that show a specific protein intake optimises calorie restricted diets. I think you meant this optimises building muscle mass not calorie restriction!
You are not going to build muscle while in a calorie deficit. :huh:
Again, I know and never said anything of the sort!
And neither did I. So WTH?0 -
The professor drank a protein shake every day. I highly doubt it was what we would consider enough protein for a grown man (in fact he was publicly criticized for low protein intake). The remainder of his diet was junk food - lots of sugar and what most would consider unhealthy fats. But he still lost weight and improved his cholesterol markers.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
He had enough protein http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/protein and probably more than most people who eat junk food as their staple diet. It looks like he was getting just under 20% of his calories from protein, the minimum recommendation is 10%.
FDA recommendations are outdated. There are new studies that show 1g/lb lean body mass is optimal during calorie restriction. How does any of this show that I do not understand the dynamics of weight loss?? Honestly, I think you are having to dig REAL deep to find an argument. It's to the point of absurdity. :ohwell:
I can't really see an argument here at all, I'm just pointing out the anecdotal evidence given here is not quite the extreme diet the title suggests. Yeah, he was getting enough protein to not put his health at risk and he was obviously not planning to build muscle during his experiment. He lost weight because he put himself through a VLC diet but despite the junk he was still getting a balance of macros, albeit not optimal. But there again I thought you had been arguing that there was no such thing as optimal macros for weight loss?
No, you are confused. I said all that is needed is a calorie deficit to lose weight. And that is true.
I am confused, because you just mentioned studies that show a specific protein intake optimises calorie restricted diets. I think you meant this optimises building muscle mass not calorie restriction!
No, she was correct. In order to maintain lean mass while restricting calories, protein requirements have been shown to be in excess of 1 gram per lb of lean mass. Protein requirements in absolute grams tend to go up as calorie intake goes down.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24092765
Therefore, if there is no difference in weight loss between eating at a calorie deficit by varying macros, but eating higher protein maintains lean mass, this means macros DO matter in fat loss. In other words you will lose more fat by eating a higher protein diet because the weight lost is less likely to be lean mass.
Now we are getting somewhere.
Maybe YOU are. I've been 'there' all along.0 -
Go, left-tickers!0
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Therefore, if there is no difference in weight loss between eating at a calorie deficit by varying macros, but eating higher protein maintains lean mass, this means macros DO matter in fat loss. In other words you will lose more fat by eating a higher protein diet because the weight lost is less likely to be lean mass.
Now we are getting somewhere.
Macros do matter for portion of weight lost from fat vs lean. As QuietBloom notes, we've been there all along. But I'm glad you're approaching the station.0
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