Does lemon juice make my body more alkaline?

mjudd1990

Lemon juice contains Citric acid which donates a hydrogen ion but will also consume a hydrogen ion in metabolizing the conjugate base so it therefore is neutral in terms of the acid/base load it presents to the body. Orange juice however contains mostly potassium citrate which has no hydrogen ion to donate but still requires a hydrogen ion to metabolize it so therefore a hydrogen ions are used up and orange juice will thus cause a slight base load.

I don't put much stock in all this alkaline/acidic water, juice, whatnot as your body is remarkably good as regulating your blood pH between 7.35-7.45 roughly. You can shift H+ into and out of cells very rapidly to maintain a given pH and then your body will just blow off more CO2 in your lungs or pee out more bicarbonate to correct any imbalance present.

ThickMcRunFast

Great job using your buddy's chemistry book, but you've entirely overlooked the human body's respiratory system. Lemon does not alkalize itself. The citric acid is expelled via the respiratory system as a person exhales, and also via the kidneys as uric acid. What is left after the body quickly does away with the citric acid is calcium, magnesium, potassium, and Selenium to name the largest quantities, also known as "alkaline ash." If someone said lemons alkalize the blood, they are wrong. But to say lemons do not have an alkalizing ash is equally wrong.

There is a reason dietitians don't take Chemistry 101 and get a degree handed to them their sophomore years.

Where did you get this information?

Sam Houston State University, BS in Food and Nutrition Science. Not my buddy's first-year chemistry book, Chapter 4, How to Calculate a Mole.

U mad bro?:laugh:

The Krebs cycle goes on in our cells, all the time, whether or not lemon water is ingested.

so...congrats on describing respiration (also from what looks to be a beginners text book)? Not sure what that has to do with the wacky claim about blood pH and lemon water. Also not sure why you think common elements like calcium, magnesium, potassium, etc have anything to do with pH or alkalinity.

Magnesium, potassium, and calcium are the previously referred to minerals that play a role in alkanization of the urine (not blood, urine) after eating certain foods.

I don't see what the showdown is about, really. You both said true things, and neither of you fully addressed the effects of lemon juice on pH of bodily fluids.
Oh, right, MFP forums aren't the place for constructive conversations about science, we'd rather beat each other down and try to prove how much more knowledgeable we are than anyone else.

So what's your take on it?

I would also like to know how calcium from lemons affects the pH of your urine.

I'll I've gotten so far is a (bad) description of part of the respiratory cycle.

All I've got, though you would need a lot of lemons to match prescribed dosage of potassium citrate, and its irrelevant to anyone without renal calculi

J Urol. 1985 Jul;134(1):20-3.
Prevention of recurrent calcium stone formation with potassium citrate therapy in patients with distal renal tubular acidosis.
Preminger GM, Sakhaee K, Skurla C, Pak CY.
Abstract
Distal renal tubular acidosis is a common cause of intractable calcium nephrolithiasis. We examined the effect of oral potassium citrate therapy in 9 patients with incomplete distal renal tubular acidosis diagnosed on the basis of an abnormal response to an oral ammonium chloride load. Patients were studied during a control phase and after 3 months of potassium citrate treatment (60 to 80 mEq. daily). Potassium citrate caused a significant increase in urinary pH and urinary citrate, and a decrease in urinary calcium. The urinary relative saturation ratio of calcium oxalate significantly decreased during treatment, while that of bru****e did not change. Potassium citrate also was shown to inhibit new stone formation. During a mean treatment period of 34 months none of the 9 patients had new stones, although 39.3 plus or minus 79.7 (standard deviation) stones per patient formed during the 3 years preceding treatment. The results support the potential clinical advantage of potassium citrate therapy in patients with distal renal tubular acidosis and recurrent calcium nephrolithiasis.

Ah, I see what you are getting at, however I am not surprised that potassium citrate would increase pH. While it is derived from citric acid, it is itself an alkaline salt.

ldrosophila

So for sh_ts and giggles what will happen if I put acetic acid instead of citric acid into my water? Will I turn into a cool human statute of phosphate and calcium?

ThickMcRunFast

So for sh_ts and giggles what will happen if I put acetic acid instead of citric acid into my water? Will I turn into a cool human statute of phosphate and calcium?

ask all the people downing apple cider vinegar before every meal.

VBnotbitter

Great job using your buddy's chemistry book, but you've entirely overlooked the human body's respiratory system. Lemon does not alkalize itself. The citric acid is expelled via the respiratory system as a person exhales, and also via the kidneys as uric acid. What is left after the body quickly does away with the citric acid is calcium, magnesium, potassium, and Selenium to name the largest quantities, also known as "alkaline ash." If someone said lemons alkalize the blood, they are wrong. But to say lemons do not have an alkalizing ash is equally wrong.

There is a reason dietitians don't take Chemistry 101 and get a degree handed to them their sophomore years.

Where did you get this information?

Sam Houston State University, BS in Food and Nutrition Science. Not my buddy's first-year chemistry book, Chapter 4, How to Calculate a Mole.

U mad bro?:laugh:

The Krebs cycle goes on in our cells, all the time, whether or not lemon water is ingested.

so...congrats on describing respiration (also from what looks to be a beginners text book)? Not sure what that has to do with the wacky claim about blood pH and lemon water. Also not sure why you think common elements like calcium, magnesium, potassium, etc have anything to do with pH or alkalinity.

Magnesium, potassium, and calcium are the previously referred to minerals that play a role in alkanization of the urine (not blood, urine) after eating certain foods.

I don't see what the showdown is about, really. You both said true things, and neither of you fully addressed the effects of lemon juice on pH of bodily fluids.
Oh, right, MFP forums aren't the place for constructive conversations about science, we'd rather beat each other down and try to prove how much more knowledgeable we are than anyone else.

So what's your take on it?

I would also like to know how calcium from lemons affects the pH of your urine.

I'll I've gotten so far is a (bad) description of part of the respiratory cycle.

All I've got, though you would need a lot of lemons to match prescribed dosage of potassium citrate, and its irrelevant to anyone without renal calculi

J Urol. 1985 Jul;134(1):20-3.
Prevention of recurrent calcium stone formation with potassium citrate therapy in patients with distal renal tubular acidosis.
Preminger GM, Sakhaee K, Skurla C, Pak CY.
Abstract
Distal renal tubular acidosis is a common cause of intractable calcium nephrolithiasis. We examined the effect of oral potassium citrate therapy in 9 patients with incomplete distal renal tubular acidosis diagnosed on the basis of an abnormal response to an oral ammonium chloride load. Patients were studied during a control phase and after 3 months of potassium citrate treatment (60 to 80 mEq. daily). Potassium citrate caused a significant increase in urinary pH and urinary citrate, and a decrease in urinary calcium. The urinary relative saturation ratio of calcium oxalate significantly decreased during treatment, while that of bru****e did not change. Potassium citrate also was shown to inhibit new stone formation. During a mean treatment period of 34 months none of the 9 patients had new stones, although 39.3 plus or minus 79.7 (standard deviation) stones per patient formed during the 3 years preceding treatment. The results support the potential clinical advantage of potassium citrate therapy in patients with distal renal tubular acidosis and recurrent calcium nephrolithiasis.

Ah, I see what you are getting at, however I am not surprised that potassium citrate would increase pH. While it is derived from citric acid, it is itself an alkaline salt.

Agreed and I'm with you just trying to get an idea on what the poster above was talking about and that was the closest I could come up with

ThickMcRunFast

Great job using your buddy's chemistry book, but you've entirely overlooked the human body's respiratory system. Lemon does not alkalize itself. The citric acid is expelled via the respiratory system as a person exhales, and also via the kidneys as uric acid. What is left after the body quickly does away with the citric acid is calcium, magnesium, potassium, and Selenium to name the largest quantities, also known as "alkaline ash." If someone said lemons alkalize the blood, they are wrong. But to say lemons do not have an alkalizing ash is equally wrong.

There is a reason dietitians don't take Chemistry 101 and get a degree handed to them their sophomore years.

Where did you get this information?

Sam Houston State University, BS in Food and Nutrition Science. Not my buddy's first-year chemistry book, Chapter 4, How to Calculate a Mole.

U mad bro?:laugh:

The Krebs cycle goes on in our cells, all the time, whether or not lemon water is ingested.

so...congrats on describing respiration (also from what looks to be a beginners text book)? Not sure what that has to do with the wacky claim about blood pH and lemon water. Also not sure why you think common elements like calcium, magnesium, potassium, etc have anything to do with pH or alkalinity.

Magnesium, potassium, and calcium are the previously referred to minerals that play a role in alkanization of the urine (not blood, urine) after eating certain foods.

I don't see what the showdown is about, really. You both said true things, and neither of you fully addressed the effects of lemon juice on pH of bodily fluids.
Oh, right, MFP forums aren't the place for constructive conversations about science, we'd rather beat each other down and try to prove how much more knowledgeable we are than anyone else.

So what's your take on it?

I would also like to know how calcium from lemons affects the pH of your urine.

I'll I've gotten so far is a (bad) description of part of the respiratory cycle.

All I've got, though you would need a lot of lemons to match prescribed dosage of potassium citrate, and its irrelevant to anyone without renal calculi

J Urol. 1985 Jul;134(1):20-3.
Prevention of recurrent calcium stone formation with potassium citrate therapy in patients with distal renal tubular acidosis.
Preminger GM, Sakhaee K, Skurla C, Pak CY.
Abstract
Distal renal tubular acidosis is a common cause of intractable calcium nephrolithiasis. We examined the effect of oral potassium citrate therapy in 9 patients with incomplete distal renal tubular acidosis diagnosed on the basis of an abnormal response to an oral ammonium chloride load. Patients were studied during a control phase and after 3 months of potassium citrate treatment (60 to 80 mEq. daily). Potassium citrate caused a significant increase in urinary pH and urinary citrate, and a decrease in urinary calcium. The urinary relative saturation ratio of calcium oxalate significantly decreased during treatment, while that of bru****e did not change. Potassium citrate also was shown to inhibit new stone formation. During a mean treatment period of 34 months none of the 9 patients had new stones, although 39.3 plus or minus 79.7 (standard deviation) stones per patient formed during the 3 years preceding treatment. The results support the potential clinical advantage of potassium citrate therapy in patients with distal renal tubular acidosis and recurrent calcium nephrolithiasis.

Ah, I see what you are getting at, however I am not surprised that potassium citrate would increase pH. While it is derived from citric acid, it is itself an alkaline salt.

Agreed and I'm with you just trying to get an idea on what the poster above was talking about and that was the closest I could come up with

I misread the quote train, my bad Carry on!

EvgeniZyntx

I love this thread.

I love that someone tossed in credentials and ThickMcRunFast was kind enough not to point out that the poster should get a refund if they think that ingested citric acid somehow makes it to the cellular TCA cycle as if it was somehow used in citrate metabolism.

I don't think I'd be so kind.

The bicarbonate buffering system, in particular bicarbonate dumping from the pancreas into the small intestine, but also carbonic anhydrase IV in the case of citric acid metabolism, renal compensation and respiratory rate are there to keep thing in place.

This Dietician should at least understand homeostasis and take "basic physiology" before talking about "chemistry 101".

In the simplest terms, cells (in mitochondria) produce citric acid and use it (in the cytosol) as part of the TCA cycle. This cycles isn't there as a digestive buffering process. It would be neat if we could somehow run on acid consumption, alas, no.

Iron_Feline

In for science. :drinker: thanks op.

ThickMcRunFast

I love this thread.

I love that someone tossed in credentials and ThickMcRunFast was kind enough not to point out that the poster should get a refund if they think that ingested citric acid somehow makes it to the cellular TCA cycle as if it was somehow used in citrate metabolism.

I don't think I'd be so kind.

The bicarbonate buffering system, in particular bicarbonate dumping from the pancreas into the small intestine, but also carbonic anhydrase IV in the case of citric acid metabolism, renal compensation and respiratory rate are there to keep thing in place.

This Dietician should at least understand homeostasis and take "basic physiology" before talking about "chemistry 101".

In the simplest terms, cells (in mitochondria) produce citric acid and use it (in the cytosol) as part of the TCA cycle. This cycles isn't there as a digestive buffering process. It would be neat if we could somehow run on acid consumption, alas, no.

I was feeling charitable and mostly confused by wth that poster was talking about. Now I see you are correct, she truly thought the TCA cycle was something that only happens when citric acid is ingested, and not part of the ongoing aerobic production of ATP from organic matter. Thanks! Now I'm kind of peeved that I wasn't paying more attention.

If she doesn't get a refund, I hope her patients do.

LiftAllThePizzas

And also doesn't know the difference between cellular respiration and the respiratory system.

SunofaBeach14

We need more science in the octagon

ThickMcRunFast

We need more science in the octagon

I could re-do the calculations for a GMO lemon.

Start with pH = 2.5 and THEN OH MY GOD THE FISH DNA JUMPS INTO YOURS AND YOU ARE DEAD NOW.

SunofaBeach14

We need more science in the octagon

I could re-do the calculations for a GMO lemon.

Start with pH = 2.5 and THEN OH MY GOD THE FISH DNA JUMPS INTO YOURS AND YOU ARE DEAD NOW.

*waves fists and throws poo*

FredDoyle

We need more science in the octagon

I could re-do the calculations for a GMO lemon.

Start with pH = 2.5 and THEN OH MY GOD THE FISH DNA JUMPS INTO YOURS AND YOU ARE DEAD NOW.

:laugh:
Thanks for the LOLs

cmriverside

We need more science in the octagon

I could re-do the calculations for a GMO lemon.

Start with pH = 2.5 and THEN OH MY GOD THE FISH DNA JUMPS INTO YOURS AND YOU ARE DEAD NOW.

You invoking Monsanto again? :laugh:

ILiftHeavyAcrylics

We need more science in the octagon

I could re-do the calculations for a GMO lemon.

Start with pH = 2.5 and THEN OH MY GOD THE FISH DNA JUMPS INTO YOURS AND YOU ARE DEAD NOW.

*snort*

_John_

so now that we've jumped the ship, can an organic orange be legally grown on a lemon tree?

lore11a

This is very true. If you don't believe lemons help in making your system more alkaline, put lemon wedges in your water and then use the test strips to test your urine. Enough said!!!

QueenBishOTUniverse

We need more science in the octagon

I could re-do the calculations for a GMO lemon.

Start with pH = 2.5 and THEN OH MY GOD THE FISH DNA JUMPS INTO YOURS AND YOU ARE DEAD NOW.

It terrifies me that people actually think this can happen.


You know what Hippy, stay off my side...

Truer words were never spoken!

ILiftHeavyAcrylics

This is very true. If you don't believe lemons help in making your system more alkaline, put lemon wedges in your water and then use the test strips to test your urine. Enough said!!!

:indifferent:

cmriverside

This is very true. If you don't believe lemons help in making your system more alkaline, put lemon wedges in your water and then use the test strips to test your urine. Enough said!!!

:indifferent:

I'll see your :indifferent: , and raise it by a :huh:

ILiftHeavyAcrylics

This is very true. If you don't believe lemons help in making your system more alkaline, put lemon wedges in your water and then use the test strips to test your urine. Enough said!!!

:indifferent:

I'll see your :indifferent: , and raise it by a :huh:

I'll throw in a :noway: for good measure.

_Waffle_

So, we will need 4.8x10^-5 moles of calcium carbonate. What does that work out to, weight-wise?
CaCO3 has a molar mass of 100g/mole (Ca = 40; C=12; O=16x3=48); easy to work with. Times the mass by the number of moles needed.

This yields 4.8x10^-3g; or 4.8 mg of calcium carbonate to neutralize the acid in two tablespoons of lemon juice.

Otterluv

This is very true. If you don't believe lemons help in making your system more alkaline, put lemon wedges in your water and then use the test strips to test your urine. Enough said!!!

:indifferent:

I'll see your :indifferent: , and raise it by a :huh:

I'll throw in a :noway: for good measure.

I'll toss an ironic :laugh: in just for kicks.

jofjltncb6

This is very true. If you don't believe lemons help in making your system more alkaline, put lemon wedges in your water and then use the test strips to test your urine. Enough said!!!

If by "system" you mean "urine", then I suppose you have a solid point there.

If by anything else, then no.


On a totally unrelated note, I've found that eating asparagus makes my urine more asparagussy...but I would be surprised if my blood also becomes more asparagussy.

Fact.

ILiftHeavyAcrylics

This is very true. If you don't believe lemons help in making your system more alkaline, put lemon wedges in your water and then use the test strips to test your urine. Enough said!!!

If by "system" you mean "urine", then I suppose you have a solid point there.

If by anything else, then no.


On a totally unrelated note, I've found that eating asparagus makes my urine more asparagussy...but I would be surprised if my blood also becomes more asparagussy.

Fact.

No, it would make your blood the opposite of asparagussy. Do you even logic?

TR0berts

I have seen a bizarrely large number of people make the claim on this site that lemon juice in water will somehow lower body pH (and that, if this happened, that it would be a good thing). When asked for a reason why, the common response is that while lemon juice is acidic, lemons have ‘minerals’ in them that will neutralize the acid, and even alkalize a liquid.

I haven't read anything quite like that. I saw one time here where someone was making the claim that something acidic (Pepsi or Coke, diet maybe?) would neutralize the body's gastric acid. I was like, :huh: - then I gave that poster a basic chemistry lesson. Nothing like what you've done though, which I applaud.

LiftAllThePizzas

This is very true. If you don't believe lemons help in making your system more alkaline, put lemon wedges in your water and then use the test strips to test your urine. Enough said!!!

1- By this reasoning, atoms which give up electrons become more negatively charged. That means all of chemistry is backwards and wrong. (And a balloon that's leaking air becomes more and more pressurized, and someone becomes richer and richer by spending more of their money, etc.)

B- Fortunately for me, my "system" isn't composed of urine.

jofjltncb6

This is very true. If you don't believe lemons help in making your system more alkaline, put lemon wedges in your water and then use the test strips to test your urine. Enough said!!!

If by "system" you mean "urine", then I suppose you have a solid point there.

If by anything else, then no.


On a totally unrelated note, I've found that eating asparagus makes my urine more asparagussy...but I would be surprised if my blood also becomes more asparagussy.

Fact.

No, it would make your blood the opposite of asparagussy. Do you even logic?

Is this where the hydrogen atoms make everything opposite?

Ugh.

Science is hard.

jkwolly

In, because I have to see this beat down....