RMR Test Results- Very Very Surprised

snikkins

At least for myself, I'm ready to change the way Ithink about this stuff with the presence of valid studies. Dismissing research as a waste of time isn't helping anyone here.

snikkins, problem is, this has been discussed ad nauseum here. People usually come to their own conclusions based on their own research. So you are encouraged to do your own research and not wait for people to post it here for you.

Here is a good thread about "starvation mode" with the most recent research studies linked in the thread.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1077746-starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss

I've actually read this, and I guess the problem is that I don't fully understand what exactly is being argued. Oh well. That's on me.

A "study" is nothing more than an well-organized collection of related anecdotes.

From what I can tell, you're basically asking other people to do your legwork for you, and then criticizing them when they don't. That doesn't really strike me as a...constructive position to take.

I don't really think I'm criticizing someone for not doing the legwork for me; I don't think it's fair to not want to post the research and then call the entire thing bunk as the reason. My apologies if it came across this way. I'm also not sure that that's my understanding of how scientific studies are, i.e. a well-organized collection of related anecdotes, just based on generally a study controls for many more things than an anecdote. But again, if this is my misunderstanding, again on me.

ETA: For example, in this particular case, the OP is arguing that based on his experience his RMR didn't go down at all while dieting at a large deficit but there if I recall correctly, he didn't get it done before he started dieting. In this case, the anecdote doesn't really tell us anything beyond he has a high RMR now. Maybe it was higher before; maybe not. This is something that a scientific study would try to control for, I would hope. But again, new to this and trying to understand exactly what I should be expecting from studies done on nutrition.

I really was not arguing that. I merely stated that I was very very surprised to see that my RMR was significantly higher than I anticipated. And higher than the online calculators were estimating. But I never did have a pre diet RMR test so I can only surmise based on what I know about my body. The studies and experts would maintain that my metabolism would slow. Maybe I was much higher than normal? I tend to doubt given the way I packed on the pounds during my injury. Maybe it was the same, but weightlifting reduced the slow down? Or maybe it increased? I think people were more obsessed about the LBM studies. Not metabolism studies.Maybe not............

I see that now. I got lost in the excitement of the beginning of the thread, so to speak, and thought you were sort of arguing something completely different. I did, however, learn that I was expecting a little too much from nutrition research. So, overall a victory and back to lurking I go.

Edited for clarity-ish

jonnythan

Nice try, but won't work. I never said there was no muscle loss. Here is my quote:

"Most of us are too fat to burn muscle in any significant amounts".

Here is the conclusion of the study:

"Thus, we showed that a substantial loss of FFM is not an obligatory consequence of massive weight loss".


Agree?

Surely you don't think that diet and training have zero effect on ratio of lean mass to fat mass loss.

Nope they have a huge impact. Where are you inferring that from?

OK so we agree that diet and training have a "huge impact" on ratio of lean mass to fat mass loss.

Therefore, shouldn't even a fat person structure his or her diet and training to minimize lean mass loss?

We agree that diet and training have a "huge impact" on ratio of lean mass to fat mass loss.

We also agree that I met the challenge and cited a study that concludes "Thus, we showed that a substantial loss of FFM is not an obligatory consequence of massive weight loss".

And I agree that a fat person should structure his or her diet and training to minimize lean mass loss and maximize fat/weight loss? And will have to structure a training regimen to accomplish those goals.

Great. We're getting somewhere now.

So what dietary factors, in terms of macronutrient intake, nutrient timing, deficit size, deficit duration, refeed days, etc, influence portion of lean mass lost while losing weight?

scottYBRIDGEWATER

Nice try, but won't work. I never said there was no muscle loss. Here is my quote:

"Most of us are too fat to burn muscle in any significant amounts".

Here is the conclusion of the study:

"Thus, we showed that a substantial loss of FFM is not an obligatory consequence of massive weight loss".


Agree?

Surely you don't think that diet and training have zero effect on ratio of lean mass to fat mass loss.

Nope they have a huge impact. Where are you inferring that from?

OK so we agree that diet and training have a "huge impact" on ratio of lean mass to fat mass loss.

Therefore, shouldn't even a fat person structure his or her diet and training to minimize lean mass loss?

We agree that diet and training have a "huge impact" on ratio of lean mass to fat mass loss.

We also agree that I met the challenge and cited a study that concludes "Thus, we showed that a substantial loss of FFM is not an obligatory consequence of massive weight loss".

And I agree that a fat person should structure his or her diet and training to minimize lean mass loss and maximize fat/weight loss? And will have to structure a training regimen to accomplish those goals.

Great. We're getting somewhere now.

So what dietary factors, in terms of macronutrient intake, nutrient timing, deficit size, deficit duration, refeed days, etc, influence portion of lean mass lost while losing weight?

As you can see, I am a work in progress trying to find that balance for myself. Trial and error. I am not there yet. Gonna go do a little cardio and then an errand. Bye.............

cmriverside

jonnythan, I do admire your tenacity.

MelodyandBarbells

In because I am finding the discussion interesting and hoping someone will post a study to back up the op's side of the discussion. Esp since several studies have been posted against it

In for basically the same reason, but would like to note that all of the refusal to post studies because of "garbage" research and anecdotal evidence is infuriating.

Spending your days combing through pubmed looking for research that may or may not exist to back up your position so that you can win at arguments on the internet is a really pathetic use of your free time.

Most of the stuff people use anyway is of very questionable use for backing up their argument.

If you need research to prove that big deficit cutting doesn't melt away the muscles, then don't do it. Just realize a lot of people that have spent a lot of time building their muscles don't believe that big deficit cutting melts away the muscles.

One doesn't research to prove they're right.

One does research to become right.

And research is comprised of more than just clinical studies and papers. Researchers in various disciplines go out into the field (anthropology) to observe and analyze various cultures and subgroups outside a double blind controlled study. It is just a scientific and relevant as a clinical trial. There is a significant subgroup of people within the BB community that know what they are talking about beyond "broscience".

Dude you're MFP's new king of broscience. Rejecting scientific studies and relying instead on what some bodybuilders do or said is practically the definition of broscience.

I ask again: how come you gained weight while injured? Is it because you ate too much or because you couldn't go to the gym?

And your MFPs king of straw man arguments. Just skip over the scientific study I linked because it refutes your point though. I gained weight due to overeating and lack of activity. Should I post it a third time for you?

No, it doesn't. It does no comparison between different calorie deficits, different types of exercise programs, etc.

Anyway, this is the first time you attributed your weight gain to overeating as far as I can tell. That's good. You're taking responsibility for the weight gain instead of blaming it on an injury. This is progress.

In a way. Under activity is a beeach. On the mind and body. As there is a strong psychological component to weight gain. I always enjoyed working out and it kept me fit and motivated beyond the whole body image thing. And you are correct. Nobody ever forced me to stuff a Twinkie down my gullet. On me. But if I wasn't injured, I would have worked out and avoided the weight gain.

I'm gonna call BS on this one. To maintain a lower body weight all you had to do was starve yourself , which you've so bold facedly criticized people on this site for CHOOSING not to do and advising others not to do. Yet when push came to shove and it was your own life, you did not make a similar decision. Seems like you're making excuses much like you're accusing others of doing.

jonnythan

jonnythan, I do admire your tenacity.

I am a superhero, and my power is stubbornness-through-boredom.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

In because I am finding the discussion interesting and hoping someone will post a study to back up the op's side of the discussion. Esp since several studies have been posted against it

In for basically the same reason, but would like to note that all of the refusal to post studies because of "garbage" research and anecdotal evidence is infuriating.

Spending your days combing through pubmed looking for research that may or may not exist to back up your position so that you can win at arguments on the internet is a really pathetic use of your free time.

Most of the stuff people use anyway is of very questionable use for backing up their argument.

If you need research to prove that big deficit cutting doesn't melt away the muscles, then don't do it. Just realize a lot of people that have spent a lot of time building their muscles don't believe that big deficit cutting melts away the muscles.

One doesn't research to prove they're right.

One does research to become right.

And research is comprised of more than just clinical studies and papers. Researchers in various disciplines go out into the field (anthropology) to observe and analyze various cultures and subgroups outside a double blind controlled study. It is just a scientific and relevant as a clinical trial. There is a significant subgroup of people within the BB community that know what they are talking about beyond "broscience".

Dude you're MFP's new king of broscience. Rejecting scientific studies and relying instead on what some bodybuilders do or said is practically the definition of broscience.

I ask again: how come you gained weight while injured? Is it because you ate too much or because you couldn't go to the gym?

And your MFPs king of straw man arguments. Just skip over the scientific study I linked because it refutes your point though. I gained weight due to overeating and lack of activity. Should I post it a third time for you?

No, it doesn't. It does no comparison between different calorie deficits, different types of exercise programs, etc.

Anyway, this is the first time you attributed your weight gain to overeating as far as I can tell. That's good. You're taking responsibility for the weight gain instead of blaming it on an injury. This is progress.

In a way. Under activity is a beeach. On the mind and body. As there is a strong psychological component to weight gain. I always enjoyed working out and it kept me fit and motivated beyond the whole body image thing. And you are correct. Nobody ever forced me to stuff a Twinkie down my gullet. On me. But if I wasn't injured, I would have worked out and avoided the weight gain.

I'm gonna call BS on this one. To maintain a lower body weight all you had to do was starve yourself , which you've so bold facedly criticized people on this site for CHOOSING not to do and advising others not to do. Yet when push came to shove and it was your own life, you did not make a similar decision. Seems like you're making excuses much like you're accusing others of doing.

Not sure if this even qualifies as a coherent point.

1- I didn't starve myself
2- I have said people can do what they want
3- I made decisions that worked for me and shared them in the face of much hate
4- I have made no excuses
5- I spent 5 minutes of my life trying to respond to someone who made a rambling post of gibberish

So how did you like the study? Or do "call BS on that too" with all of your extensive knowledge.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

jonnythan, I do admire your tenacity.

I admire studies...............

jonnythan

So what dietary factors, in terms of macronutrient intake, nutrient timing, deficit size, deficit duration, refeed days, etc, influence portion of lean mass lost while losing weight?

As you can see, I am a work in progress trying to find that balance for myself. Trial and error. I am not there yet. Gonna go do a little cardio and then an errand. Bye.............

I see. You're not sure what dietary factors influence lean mass loss, despite all this science and learning from 33 years of weightlifting.

Yet you reject the idea that running a large calorie deficits may contribute to lean mass loss. You almost reject the idea of lean mass loss in obese people entirely with statements like "WE ARE TOO FAT AND NOT IN DANGER OF LOSING SIGNIFICANT MUSCLE MASS."

Not sure your opinions have much consistency at all, especially when you appeal to the experiences of bodybuilders pumped full of steroids as evidence of anything.

jonnythan

jonnythan, I do admire your tenacity.

I admire studies...............

Interesting, because so do I. I spend a lot of time reading scientific studies. I just read through about twelve of them tonight, though they were regarding the relationship between zinc intake and cholesterol levels as opposed to the factors that influence lean mass loss in calorie-restricted subjects. Frankly I'm unconvinced you've read many scientific studies at all.

If you had, you wouldn't appeal to Dorian Yates as evidence.

cmriverside

jonnythan, I do admire your tenacity.

I admire studies...............

ellipses only have three dots...three. Not fifteen.


JUST SAYIN'.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

So what dietary factors, in terms of macronutrient intake, nutrient timing, deficit size, deficit duration, refeed days, etc, influence portion of lean mass lost while losing weight?

As you can see, I am a work in progress trying to find that balance for myself. Trial and error. I am not there yet. Gonna go do a little cardio and then an errand. Bye.............

I see. You're not sure what dietary factors influence lean mass loss, despite all this science and learning from 33 years of weightlifting.

Yet you reject the idea that running a large calorie deficits may contribute to lean mass loss. You almost reject the idea of lean mass loss in obese people entirely with statements like "WE ARE TOO FAT AND NOT IN DANGER OF LOSING SIGNIFICANT MUSCLE MASS."

Not sure your opinions have much consistency at all, especially when you appeal to the experiences of bodybuilders pumped full of steroids as evidence of anything.

Not sure where you are grabbing these conclusions that I lack knowledge about my dietary regimen. I could share that with you? Or are you looking for more studies on nutrients and LBM? You seem to want to constantly change subjects when confused. And the study I cited proved you were wrong. I know it stings but you'll get over it. Eventually.
Is it back to personal attacks, or do you want me to share my dietary regimen?

jonnythan

So what dietary factors, in terms of macronutrient intake, nutrient timing, deficit size, deficit duration, refeed days, etc, influence portion of lean mass lost while losing weight?

As you can see, I am a work in progress trying to find that balance for myself. Trial and error. I am not there yet. Gonna go do a little cardio and then an errand. Bye.............

I see. You're not sure what dietary factors influence lean mass loss, despite all this science and learning from 33 years of weightlifting.

Yet you reject the idea that running a large calorie deficits may contribute to lean mass loss. You almost reject the idea of lean mass loss in obese people entirely with statements like "WE ARE TOO FAT AND NOT IN DANGER OF LOSING SIGNIFICANT MUSCLE MASS."

Not sure your opinions have much consistency at all, especially when you appeal to the experiences of bodybuilders pumped full of steroids as evidence of anything.

Not sure where you are grabbing these conclusions that I lack knowledge about my dietary regimen. I could share that with you? Or are you looking for more studies on nutrients and LBM? You seem to want to constantly change subjects when confused. And the study I cited proved you were wrong. I know it stings but you'll get over it. Eventually.
Is it back to personal attacks, or do you want me to share my dietary regimen?

Well I asked you what dietary factors influence lean mass loss, and you pretty much responded with "dunno."

If you'd like to revisit the question and provide an answer, then by all means proceed.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

jonnythan, I do admire your tenacity.

I admire studies...............

ellipses only have three dots...three. Not fifteen.


JUST SAYIN'.

Ah the dreaded spelling police. When all else fails and coherent points are hard to come by, spelling is a nice fall back position. Congratulations, it probably the most important contribution you made to the discussion.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

So what dietary factors, in terms of macronutrient intake, nutrient timing, deficit size, deficit duration, refeed days, etc, influence portion of lean mass lost while losing weight?

As you can see, I am a work in progress trying to find that balance for myself. Trial and error. I am not there yet. Gonna go do a little cardio and then an errand. Bye.............

I see. You're not sure what dietary factors influence lean mass loss, despite all this science and learning from 33 years of weightlifting.

Yet you reject the idea that running a large calorie deficits may contribute to lean mass loss. You almost reject the idea of lean mass loss in obese people entirely with statements like "WE ARE TOO FAT AND NOT IN DANGER OF LOSING SIGNIFICANT MUSCLE MASS."

Not sure your opinions have much consistency at all, especially when you appeal to the experiences of bodybuilders pumped full of steroids as evidence of anything.

Not sure where you are grabbing these conclusions that I lack knowledge about my dietary regimen. I could share that with you? Or are you looking for more studies on nutrients and LBM? You seem to want to constantly change subjects when confused. And the study I cited proved you were wrong. I know it stings but you'll get over it. Eventually.
Is it back to personal attacks, or do you want me to share my dietary regimen?

Well I asked you what dietary factors influence lean mass loss, and you pretty much responded with "dunno."

If you'd like to revisit the question and provide an answer, then by all means proceed.

No I responded that I am undergoing a process myself. Are you looking for my specific regimen?

jonnythan

So what dietary factors, in terms of macronutrient intake, nutrient timing, deficit size, deficit duration, refeed days, etc, influence portion of lean mass lost while losing weight?

As you can see, I am a work in progress trying to find that balance for myself. Trial and error. I am not there yet. Gonna go do a little cardio and then an errand. Bye.............

I see. You're not sure what dietary factors influence lean mass loss, despite all this science and learning from 33 years of weightlifting.

Yet you reject the idea that running a large calorie deficits may contribute to lean mass loss. You almost reject the idea of lean mass loss in obese people entirely with statements like "WE ARE TOO FAT AND NOT IN DANGER OF LOSING SIGNIFICANT MUSCLE MASS."

Not sure your opinions have much consistency at all, especially when you appeal to the experiences of bodybuilders pumped full of steroids as evidence of anything.

Not sure where you are grabbing these conclusions that I lack knowledge about my dietary regimen. I could share that with you? Or are you looking for more studies on nutrients and LBM? You seem to want to constantly change subjects when confused. And the study I cited proved you were wrong. I know it stings but you'll get over it. Eventually.
Is it back to personal attacks, or do you want me to share my dietary regimen?

Well I asked you what dietary factors influence lean mass loss, and you pretty much responded with "dunno."

If you'd like to revisit the question and provide an answer, then by all means proceed.

No I responded that I am undergoing a process myself. Are you looking for my specific regimen?

I'm looking for what dietary factors influence lean mass loss. There are multiple purposes for the question, but they are not important. The answer to the question is highly pertinent to the discussion.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

jonnythan, I do admire your tenacity.

I admire studies...............

Interesting, because so do I. I spend a lot of time reading scientific studies. I just read through about twelve of them tonight, though they were regarding the relationship between zinc intake and cholesterol levels as opposed to the factors that influence lean mass loss in calorie-restricted subjects. Frankly I'm unconvinced you've read many scientific studies at all.

If you had, you wouldn't appeal to Dorian Yates as evidence.

Actually if I would want advice about diet, nutrition, or strength training I would most certainly refer and take the advice of Dorian Yates over the internet guy who read twelve studies last night.

jonnythan

Actually if I would want advice about diet, nutrition, or strength training I would most certainly refer and take the advice of Dorian Yates over the internet guy who read twelve studies last night.

That is interesting, because our bodies (presumably) bear little resemblance to Dorian's. Dorian Yates used large quantities of chemicals such as hormones, steroids, fat burners, etc, to significantly alter his body chemistry. The things that would work for an extremely medicated person like Yates will not necessarily be the things that work for you or I, assuming you are not on copious quantities of gear.

So where does that leave us? It leaves us wondering what does work best for mere mortals not pumping themselves with megadoses of testosterone daily. How do we determine what works best for mere mortals? Probably not by asking a 6-time Mr Olympia.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

So what dietary factors, in terms of macronutrient intake, nutrient timing, deficit size, deficit duration, refeed days, etc, influence portion of lean mass lost while losing weight?

As you can see, I am a work in progress trying to find that balance for myself. Trial and error. I am not there yet. Gonna go do a little cardio and then an errand. Bye.............

I see. You're not sure what dietary factors influence lean mass loss, despite all this science and learning from 33 years of weightlifting.

Yet you reject the idea that running a large calorie deficits may contribute to lean mass loss. You almost reject the idea of lean mass loss in obese people entirely with statements like "WE ARE TOO FAT AND NOT IN DANGER OF LOSING SIGNIFICANT MUSCLE MASS."

Not sure your opinions have much consistency at all, especially when you appeal to the experiences of bodybuilders pumped full of steroids as evidence of anything.

Not sure where you are grabbing these conclusions that I lack knowledge about my dietary regimen. I could share that with you? Or are you looking for more studies on nutrients and LBM? You seem to want to constantly change subjects when confused. And the study I cited proved you were wrong. I know it stings but you'll get over it. Eventually.
Is it back to personal attacks, or do you want me to share my dietary regimen?

Well I asked you what dietary factors influence lean mass loss, and you pretty much responded with "dunno."

If you'd like to revisit the question and provide an answer, then by all means proceed.

No I responded that I am undergoing a process myself. Are you looking for my specific regimen?

I'm looking for what dietary factors influence lean mass loss. There are multiple purposes for the question, but they are not important. The answer to the question is highly pertinent to the discussion.

I am glad that you are seeking this knowledge. It shows me that you are willing to learn and listen. That is progress from your prior attitude. So I am sure that if you make the effort you can seek the answer you are searching if you read 12 more studies tonight. I can review and we can discuss tomorrow as I absolutely fascinated with what answer you will come up. Please feel free to expand into the are of metabolism as well. Give a man a fish he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime.

determinedbutlazy

Just break up.

This thread has gone absolutely nowhere for pages and pages.