Building muscle vs. building strength? same thing?

girlschmoopie

In reading lots of threads/posts, I understand that building muscle requires eating more. Makes sense, I think get it.

The thing at confuses me is when I see statements along the lines of "you're not building muscle if you are eating a deficit." But how can one know? Couldn't someone be building a little muscle while they are losing fat and eating a deficit? Or are they building strength, not muscle...is it the same thing or are they different?

Here's why I ask...
-I'm eating a deficit: 1500-1700 cal a day, roughly 85%healthy choices. My macros are always pretty close (1-2% off, if at all).
-I've always been consistent with cardio (as a runner), but I've added circuit training and working out with dumbbells (started with dumbbell sets: 3#, 5# & 8#...but now the ones I use most are 8#, 10#, 12# & 15# depending on what body part I'm working.)
-I have lost weight and inches, and I'm seeing definition. (Add. Info: I was at the high end of a healthy weight and am moving to the mid to lower end of healthy weight for my height).
-I am considerably stronger now than I was 1.5 months ago. I'm finally able to do full body push-ups (3x15), I'm holding planks longer (went from struggling through :30 to being able to hold them for 1:15). I added burpees (could barely do 6 sets of 5, and am now doing 3 sets of 10).

So I have added STRENGTH. I know this. How is this different from adding muscle? Can someone explain it to me? Have I just somehow strengthened the muscle I already have (which is good...I'll totally take it!) but not added any real additional muscle (because I'm eating a deficit)? It is confusing to me, because you can't have strength w/o muscle.

Maybe I need another cup of coffee for clarity... idk. I'm just interested in what others have to say, especially the heavy lifters who know the eating more/building muscle stuff.

Thx in advance.

Zomoniac

You need muscle for strength but it's not 100% directly proportional. A muscle can get stronger without getting physically bigger. If you look at the size of the muscles on some competing showing bodybuilders, they will be a lot bigger than those on an Olympic weightlifter, but they're not as strong, they just focused on aesthetics over performance.

JoRocka

no building strength and building size/bulk are not the same thing

keep in mind rep ranges make a difference

1-5 : strength
5-10: hypertrophy/size
10-20: muscle endurance.

If you are eating at a deficit you are just getting stronger- but not really build SIZE. You can improve the muscle you have- it becomes more dense and stronger- but it's not really going to get bigger.

Most people see newb gainz- but that's a bit different than going for a full bulk.


strength- you can lift more- lift longer- aren't tired- more energy- more efficient.

Building muscle means you are putting on size- like it's actually getting bigger- you're clothes fit differently- (they get to tight in certain areas) and you can MEASURE the difference (meaning- in november- my arms were only 12" now after 4 months of bulk they are 13")

- people often get confused with this because they get more definition- lose some fat- and they get more dense muscle- and think they are bulking- it's not bulk- it's definition.

Helpful?

girlschmoopie

You need muscle for strength but it's not 100% directly proportional. A muscle can get stronger without getting physically bigger. If you look at the size of the muscles on some competing showing bodybuilders, they will be a lot bigger than those on an Olympic weightlifter, but they're not as strong, they just focused on aesthetics over performance.

Thanks! I felt like it had to be somehow related, but also different...hence my confusion!

So if I'm not interested in being a body builder and doing competitions...the calorie amount I eat doesn't matter so much, correct? I won't be continuing to eat a deficit much longer as I'm super close to my goal, but I intend to keep up the strength work because I love the tight look it gives my muscles.

LiftAllThePizzas

Strength training increases the ability of the neurons to do what they need to do to produce stronger muscle contractions. It also improves coordination between muscles which is needed to perform the task. (There was some study where they had people only train one side, and the other side also got stronger. Not as much as the directly-trained side, but also more than nothing.)

(And muscles can get bigger, but strength increases can happen without muscle growth.)

girlschmoopie

no building strength and building size/bulk are not the same thing

keep in mind rep ranges make a difference

1-5 : strength
5-10: hypertrophy/size
10-20: muscle endurance.

If you are eating at a deficit you are just getting stronger- but not really build SIZE. You can improve the muscle you have- it becomes more dense and stronger- but it's not really going to get bigger.

Most people see newb gainz- but that's a bit different than going for a full bulk.


strength- you can lift more- lift longer- aren't tired- more energy- more efficient.

Building muscle means you are putting on size- like it's actually getting bigger- you're clothes fit differently- (they get to tight in certain areas) and you can MEASURE the difference (meaning- in november- my arms were only 12" now after 4 months of bulk they are 13")

- people often get confused with this because they get more definition- lose some fat- and they get more dense muscle- and think they are bulking- it's not bulk- it's definition.

Helpful?

VERY HELPFUL! Thanks!!
(And I didn't even need the 2nd cup of coffee to understand you both! )

ItsCasey

A lot of strength gains come from central nervous system (CNS) adaptations. If you aren't juicing, there will come a point where you reach your genetic limits in terms of adding muscle, but you can continue to gain strength.

I have seen people do programs where they drop fat and add some muscle at the same time (i.e. clinical body fat testing showed a decrease in body fat and an increase in lean body mass), despite being in a significant caloric deficit. But this is unusual and typically only happens in people who are untrained or very obese.

timkane46

Strength is proportionate to the ability to recruit muscle fiber activity. Muscle mass gain from hypertrophy normally comes from extending the amount of time of resistance i.e 8,10-12 rep range. Power or strength is usually associated with shorter "bursts" 1,3-5 rep range. Those looking for strength gains want to shock the muscle with overload forcing it to recruit more activity. It is possible to gain muscle while losing weight, if you have a lot of body fat to begin with. I did it so I know it can be done. Any time you place a new stress on the body it adapts to it, so if you keep progressing in weight you will build strength and to some degree size depending on how you go about it. IMHO

JoRocka

VERY HELPFUL! Thanks!!
(And I didn't even need the 2nd cup of coffee to understand you both! )

HAH HAHA HA HA
I managed to get most of that out without my second cup of coffee LOL- which is impressive for me- I shouldn't be anywhere near social media without at least 20 oz.

Capt_Apollo

some people train specifically for hypertrophy. say for instance actors that need to bulk up for a role. sure, they're strong, but they look a lot stronger than they actually are.

girlschmoopie

Strength training increases the ability of the neurons to do what they need to do to produce stronger muscle contractions. It also improves coordination between muscles which is needed to perform the task. (There was some study where they had people only train one side, and the other side also got stronger. Not as much as the directly-trained side, but also more than nothing.)

(And muscles can get bigger, but strength increases can happen without muscle growth.)

Thank you for your reply!

And to further clarify... Would it be correct to say building strength help me to basically KEEP the muscle I have as I'm getting older (approaching 40 by the second), even if I'm not adding actual muscle bulk?

I don't care to bulk, it isn't my goal, but my goal IS to keep the muscle I have and be strong.

tomcornhole

I lifted my first "weight" in March of 2013. I had 157 lbs of Lean Body Mass. I could dead lift 200 lbs, barely. Fast forward to today and I have 157 lbs of LBM. And I deadlifted 425 lbs last week. As mentioned, the CNS learns how to use what it has and apparently can do a very fine job of it.

girlschmoopie

A lot of strength gains come from central nervous system (CNS) adaptations. If you aren't juicing, there will come a point where you reach your genetic limits in terms of adding muscle, but you can continue to gain strength.

I have seen people do programs where they drop fat and add some muscle at the same time (i.e. clinical body fat testing showed a decrease in body fat and an increase in lean body mass), despite being in a significant caloric deficit. But this is unusual and typically only happens in people who are untrained or very obese.

Thanks for your reply! No juicing here!

JoRocka

Strength training increases the ability of the neurons to do what they need to do to produce stronger muscle contractions. It also improves coordination between muscles which is needed to perform the task. (There was some study where they had people only train one side, and the other side also got stronger. Not as much as the directly-trained side, but also more than nothing.)

(And muscles can get bigger, but strength increases can happen without muscle growth.)

Thank you for your reply!

And to further clarify... Would it be correct to say building strength help me to basically KEEP the muscle I have as I'm getting older (approaching 40 by the second), even if I'm not adding actual muscle bulk?

I don't care to bulk, it isn't my goal, but my goal IS to keep the muscle I have and be strong.

yes- you will never lose muscle if you are training for strength unless you are eating constantly at a severe deficit over pro-longed period.

just keep lifting- get on a program- and lift to your hearts content- you'll be fine.

its' laughably hard work to bulk. Most women get where they want with deficit/maintenance and heavy lifting.

girlschmoopie

Strength is proportionate to the ability to recruit muscle fiber activity. Muscle mass gain from hypertrophy normally comes from extending the amount of time of resistance i.e 8,10-12 rep range. Power or strength is usually associated with shorter "bursts" 1,3-5 rep range. Those looking for strength gains want to shock the muscle with overload forcing it to recruit more activity. It is possible to gain muscle while losing weight, if you have a lot of body fat to begin with. I did it so I know it can be done. Any time you place a new stress on the body it adapts to it, so if you keep progressing in weight you will build strength and to some degree size depending on how you go about it. IMHO

Thanks! I admit I have to go look up what "hypertrophy" means. But I understand the "bursts" and "power" statements. I use that to some extent in training for races... Short bursts of speed in a run make me more powerful than trudging one foot after the other at the same pace for several miles.

girlschmoopie

some people train specifically for hypertrophy. say for instance actors that need to bulk up for a role. sure, they're strong, but they look a lot stronger than they actually are.

Very interesting. So the assumption that bulky muscles always = strength would be a bad one to make, yes?

girlschmoopie

I lifted my first "weight" in March of 2013. I had 157 lbs of Lean Body Mass. I could dead lift 200 lbs, barely. Fast forward to today and I have 157 lbs of LBM. And I deadlifted 425 lbs last week. As mentioned, the CNS learns how to use what it has and apparently can do a very fine job of it.

That is awesome!

Mother_Superior

Strength training increases the ability of the neurons to do what they need to do to produce stronger muscle contractions. It also improves coordination between muscles which is needed to perform the task. (There was some study where they had people only train one side, and the other side also got stronger. Not as much as the directly-trained side, but also more than nothing.)

(And muscles can get bigger, but strength increases can happen without muscle growth.)

This.

JoRocka

some people train specifically for hypertrophy. say for instance actors that need to bulk up for a role. sure, they're strong, but they look a lot stronger than they actually are.

Very interesting. So the assumption that bulky muscles always = strength would be a bad one to make, yes?

never assume anything about anybody. That fat guy at your gym may be a competition power lifter.

And it's a fallacy that body builders aren't strong- they just are not strong like power lifters. But not- big muscles doesn't always mean pure strength- but don't kid yourself- real body builders move iron- and a lot of it.

girlschmoopie

Strength training increases the ability of the neurons to do what they need to do to produce stronger muscle contractions. It also improves coordination between muscles which is needed to perform the task. (There was some study where they had people only train one side, and the other side also got stronger. Not as much as the directly-trained side, but also more than nothing.)

(And muscles can get bigger, but strength increases can happen without muscle growth.)

Thank you for your reply!

And to further clarify... Would it be correct to say building strength help me to basically KEEP the muscle I have as I'm getting older (approaching 40 by the second), even if I'm not adding actual muscle bulk?

I don't care to bulk, it isn't my goal, but my goal IS to keep the muscle I have and be strong.

yes- you will never lose muscle if you are training for strength unless you are eating constantly at a severe deficit over pro-longed period.

just keep lifting- get on a program- and lift to your hearts content- you'll be fine.

its' laughably hard work to bulk. Most women get where they want with deficit/maintenance and heavy lifting.

Thanks! I will keep lifting, and I know women don't add bulk like guys do...I just meant that the heavy lifting wasn't my goal right now. That's not to say it won't be eventually. I mean, I'm already increasing the dumbbell weight as I get stronger. I'm just not on the fast track to see how heavy I can lift. That probably comes from the runner in me, but I know that running alone has done nothing to help me keep upper body/core strength. Yet, I can already tell that my gains in strength is helping my speed. (Wooohooo!)

Fithealthyforlife

Bottom line is:

-You can build muscle only, strength only, or both. Usually, some of both goes together.

-You can't add bodyweight at a deficit, period. You can only lose weight.

-You can't add bodyweight at true maintenance either.

-It is possible, however, to gain muscle and maintain your body weight at maintenance, but only if you already have a certain level of body fat to catabolize for energy and your diet/recovery are near perfect. It's very slow. But for some people, this is all they want.

girlschmoopie

Strength training increases the ability of the neurons to do what they need to do to produce stronger muscle contractions. It also improves coordination between muscles which is needed to perform the task. (There was some study where they had people only train one side, and the other side also got stronger. Not as much as the directly-trained side, but also more than nothing.)

(And muscles can get bigger, but strength increases can happen without muscle growth.)

This.

Just saying hi and acknowledging you contribution of agreement. Thanks!

SamMorBelsmom

no building strength and building size/bulk are not the same thing

keep in mind rep ranges make a difference

1-5 : strength
5-10: hypertrophy/size
10-20: muscle endurance.

If you are eating at a deficit you are just getting stronger- but not really build SIZE. You can improve the muscle you have- it becomes more dense and stronger- but it's not really going to get bigger.

Most people see newb gainz- but that's a bit different than going for a full bulk.


strength- you can lift more- lift longer- aren't tired- more energy- more efficient.

Building muscle means you are putting on size- like it's actually getting bigger- you're clothes fit differently- (they get to tight in certain areas) and you can MEASURE the difference (meaning- in november- my arms were only 12" now after 4 months of bulk they are 13")

- people often get confused with this because they get more definition- lose some fat- and they get more dense muscle- and think they are bulking- it's not bulk- it's definition.

Helpful?

^this completely.
As a high school starting pitcher, I was told by my pitching coach that I need to build muscle to gain pitch speed. My softball coach sent me to lift with the defensive players on the high school football team. And wow! In 4 months before the season started I added 12 lbs of muscle on my body between the legs and arms. Plus 10 mph on my pitch. During the actual season, I was told to lower the weight considerable and up the rep for endurance because I was "fading" before the game would end. I lost more fat during the season but looked bigger because of definition. I honestly don't know where I was going with this but please please please realize the to look like body builder on tv, those woman have been working no stop for years! You are not going to "BULK" up in 4 months.

girlschmoopie

some people train specifically for hypertrophy. say for instance actors that need to bulk up for a role. sure, they're strong, but they look a lot stronger than they actually are.

Very interesting. So the assumption that bulky muscles always = strength would be a bad one to make, yes?

never assume anything about anybody. That fat guy at your gym may be a competition power lifter.

And it's a fallacy that body builders aren't strong- they just are not strong like power lifters. But not- big muscles doesn't always mean pure strength- but don't kid yourself- real body builders move iron- and a lot of it.

There's a difference between "body builders" and "power lifters" ?

I try to not assume, but I do always seek clarity.

Huffdogg

some people train specifically for hypertrophy. say for instance actors that need to bulk up for a role. sure, they're strong, but they look a lot stronger than they actually are.

Very interesting. So the assumption that bulky muscles always = strength would be a bad one to make, yes?

It would, yes. Although those guys who pack tons of muscle are rarely weak and likely could see great gains in strength if they decided to direct their training to improve it. There's actually a whole YouTube series called "Nice body; now what can you do with it?" where a bodybuilder trains alongside powerlifters and weightlifters and xfitters to see how his chiseled physique actually performs. Pretty interesting.

If strength = muscle directly, you'd never have guys deadlifting 800 lbs at 181 lbs bodyweight. The bigger man would always be stronger. This isn't always the case.

drenergy

This is the most helpful thread evarrrrrr.

mhankosk

Ok so.. there is that whole "muscle burns more at rest than fat does... increased metabolism" thing. You are eating at a deficit and lifting, therefore making the muscle you already have stronger. Does that rule still apply? Or does your metabolism only increase by building new muscle? Just curious...

JoRocka

some people train specifically for hypertrophy. say for instance actors that need to bulk up for a role. sure, they're strong, but they look a lot stronger than they actually are.

Very interesting. So the assumption that bulky muscles always = strength would be a bad one to make, yes?

never assume anything about anybody. That fat guy at your gym may be a competition power lifter.

And it's a fallacy that body builders aren't strong- they just are not strong like power lifters. But not- big muscles doesn't always mean pure strength- but don't kid yourself- real body builders move iron- and a lot of it.

There's a difference between "body builders" and "power lifters" ?

I try to not assume, but I do always seek clarity.

body builders- build- for the stage- they have their own strengths- but it's for atheistic- they are competing in what they look like as far as muscular development/definition/balance.

Power lifts- who lifts more weight cleanly. period. You are judged on if it was a legal lift and if you lifted more than the other guy.

2 completely different sports- but some people do both.

girlschmoopie

Bottom line is:

-You can build muscle only, strength only, or both. Usually, some of both goes together.

-You can't add bodyweight at a deficit, period. You can only lose weight.

-You can't add bodyweight at true maintenance either.

-It is possible, however, to gain muscle and maintain your body weight at maintenance, but only if you already have a certain level of body fat to catabolize for energy and your diet/recovery are near perfect. It's very slow. But for some people, this is all they want.

Thanks! Your second point definitely adds clarity to the "not building muscle on a deficit" comments I have read. Third point also makes sense to me along those lines.

girlschmoopie

no building strength and building size/bulk are not the same thing

keep in mind rep ranges make a difference

1-5 : strength
5-10: hypertrophy/size
10-20: muscle endurance.

If you are eating at a deficit you are just getting stronger- but not really build SIZE. You can improve the muscle you have- it becomes more dense and stronger- but it's not really going to get bigger.

Most people see newb gainz- but that's a bit different than going for a full bulk.


strength- you can lift more- lift longer- aren't tired- more energy- more efficient.

Building muscle means you are putting on size- like it's actually getting bigger- you're clothes fit differently- (they get to tight in certain areas) and you can MEASURE the difference (meaning- in november- my arms were only 12" now after 4 months of bulk they are 13")

- people often get confused with this because they get more definition- lose some fat- and they get more dense muscle- and think they are bulking- it's not bulk- it's definition.

Helpful?

^this completely.
As a high school starting pitcher, I was told by my pitching coach that I need to build muscle to gain pitch speed. My softball coach sent me to lift with the defensive players on the high school football team. And wow! In 4 months before the season started I added 12 lbs of muscle on my body between the legs and arms. Plus 10 mph on my pitch. During the actual season, I was told to lower the weight considerable and up the rep for endurance because I was "fading" before the game would end. I lost more fat during the season but looked bigger because of definition. I honestly don't know where I was going with this but please please please realize the to look like body builder on tv, those woman have been working no stop for years! You are not going to "BULK" up in 4 months.

I'm not concerned about bulking, I'm aware of the myths of women and bulking. Thanks for sharing your story!

girlschmoopie

some people train specifically for hypertrophy. say for instance actors that need to bulk up for a role. sure, they're strong, but they look a lot stronger than they actually are.

Very interesting. So the assumption that bulky muscles always = strength would be a bad one to make, yes?

It would, yes. Although those guys who pack tons of muscle are rarely weak and likely could see great gains in strength if they decided to direct their training to improve it. There's actually a whole YouTube series called "Nice body; now what can you do with it?" where a bodybuilder trains alongside powerlifters and weightlifters and xfitters to see how his chiseled physique actually performs. Pretty interesting.

If strength = muscle directly, you'd never have guys deadlifting 800 lbs at 181 lbs bodyweight. The bigger man would always be stronger. This isn't always the case.

Thanks for your reply, I will look for the youtube videos, it sounds interesting!