Gain muscle AND lose fat?
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Lots of people get surprised at how they look once the hit the low 10's in body fat. They may not have gained size, but their muscularity makes them look so they've added it when that's usually not the case. And with more strength gained it would seem logical which is why it gets touted so much by many dieting programs that include resistance training. The advertising behind most programs are usually worded to attract the type of client they want to join and train. For instance, Barre or Pilates will state that one is "building" long lean muscle. In reality, muscle is attached to the limbs at birth. There's no way to lengthen them (one can be more flexible) unless the bones somehow get longer and only surgery does that.At last, a thread that I can relate to!
I've been eating at a small deficit for the last few months now - am also training for endurance - offroad duathlons of approx 25-40k and I also have been following a stronglift 5x5 program.
I have lost loads of weight and now look like I have put muscle on. I would say that I have probably kept a decent portion of my muscle as I was eating high protein and lifting the weights - I am very much stronger that I was 6 months ago.
Looking in the mirror I have a defined six pack (lol - such a simple measurement of success) and I look so much more well built than I used to even though I might have lost some bulk - what is left is stronger and easier to see.
I have just about plateau'd at 12st8ish - 79 ish kilo - 180lbs is - and am not planning to lose any more but to take the slow route to recomp even though the temptation is there to eat a lot, lift a lot and get bulky! Must resist...
So - I say you can become stronger, look more well built and be perfectly awesome on a deficit - and I would go ahead and lose the excess weight and fat first, before you then decide to bulk up - as you'll find that by the time you can see your ix pack then all your other muscle definition will be so much clearer it will look like you have more muscle too.
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Essentially this is body recomp. But IMO, you eat surplus on the off days since rebuilding muscle happens when your aren't tearing it down by working out.What would happen if you, for instance, lift on Monday mornings and Wednesday mornings and eat a surplus Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but then eat on a deficit for the rest of the week?
It would be slow, but in effect wouldn't you be gaining muscle and losing weight in the same week? In theory at least.
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If you have more muscle then you burn more calories as your basal rate is higher.
Your fuel consumption at idle is higher..if you want an engine analogy
The effect of adding a few pounds of muscle is miniscule - 5.9 calories per pound per day is the number I've seen.
Pales into insignificance compared to simply being more active or eating a little less.0 -
What would happen if you, for instance, lift on Monday mornings and Wednesday mornings and eat a surplus Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but then eat on a deficit for the rest of the week?
It would be slow, but in effect wouldn't you be gaining muscle and losing weight in the same week? In theory at least.
See mixed approaches like Lyle McDonald's UD2.0 or Berkhan's Leangains for examples of how these kind of approaches can be set up. Sidenote: they generally are more for people at the lower end of the bf scale. If you're not in the low 10's, you probably won't get much out of these approaches anyway.
ETA: kirk_r already mentioned this above. Apologies to him, didn't see his post when I scrolled through...0 -
Off days? You can build muscle for 2-3 days AFTER a workout though, right? Not only on days you don't lift. If I only lift on Monday and Wednesday I don't feel like it would do me a whole lot of good to eat a surplus on Saturday and Sunday.
Essentially this is body recomp. But IMO, you eat surplus on the off days since rebuilding muscle happens when your aren't tearing it down by working out.What would happen if you, for instance, lift on Monday mornings and Wednesday mornings and eat a surplus Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but then eat on a deficit for the rest of the week?
It would be slow, but in effect wouldn't you be gaining muscle and losing weight in the same week? In theory at least.0 -
So why wouldn't these concepts work for people with more body fat? I don't intend on reading the book or ever being near or below 10% body fat.What would happen if you, for instance, lift on Monday mornings and Wednesday mornings and eat a surplus Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but then eat on a deficit for the rest of the week?
It would be slow, but in effect wouldn't you be gaining muscle and losing weight in the same week? In theory at least.
See mixed approaches like Lyle McDonald's UD2.0 or Berkhan's Leangains for examples of how these kind of approaches can be set up. Sidenote: they generally are more for people at the lower end of the bf scale. If you're not in the low 10's, you probably won't get much out of these approaches anyway.
My concept is pretty simple: I try to eat on a surplus for a couple days after I lift, but if I haven't been able to make it to the gym for a while I eat on a deficit. My life is too chaotic to follow a strict program, I just try to establish some guidelines to follow.0 -
You would cycle your surplus on Tuesday-Thursday since those are rest days. All you're doing by eating a more on lift days is fueling the workout.
Off days? You can build muscle for 2-3 days AFTER a workout though, right? Not only on days you don't lift. If I only lift on Monday and Wednesday I don't feel like it would do me a whole lot of good to eat a surplus on Saturday and Sunday.
Essentially this is body recomp. But IMO, you eat surplus on the off days since rebuilding muscle happens when your aren't tearing it down by working out.What would happen if you, for instance, lift on Monday mornings and Wednesday mornings and eat a surplus Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but then eat on a deficit for the rest of the week?
It would be slow, but in effect wouldn't you be gaining muscle and losing weight in the same week? In theory at least.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
What would happen if you, for instance, lift on Monday mornings and Wednesday mornings and eat a surplus Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but then eat on a deficit for the rest of the week?
It would be slow, but in effect wouldn't you be gaining muscle and losing weight in the same week? In theory at least.
At that point you would want to look at total caloric intake for the week, and see how that number balances out against what your maintenance calories would be over the week, and then what your bulking calories would be for the week.
I would suggest what your thinking is along the lines of Intermittent Fasting, LeanGains.....0 -
So why wouldn't these concepts work for people with more body fat? I don't intend on reading the book or ever being near or below 10% body fat.
My concept is pretty simple: I try to eat on a surplus for a couple days after I lift, but if I haven't been able to make it to the gym for a while I eat on a deficit. My life is too chaotic to follow a strict program, I just try to establish some guidelines to follow.
Sounds to me that you are not so much trying to bulk, as you are just trying to maintain...0 -
One other thing I will say about LeanGains...and to the OP's question.
What would come about is that the person will/can get stronger....
Will he/she put on mass/muscle size?? Prolly not.
I do leangains....and I have gotten stronger....
But I have not gotten bigger...
I have went to ~175 - 177....where before LG, I was ~1820 -
Thanks everyone. That seems to confirm what I thought was right. I'm going to stick to what I'm doing for now and try to whittle this fat down before I start trying to build muscle. And by all means, feel free to ask any related questions.
I'll have a bunch of questions in a few months when I get the fat closer to where I want to be and start thinking about transitioning to building a little muscle.I'd suggest you listen to Lyle's explanation:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
Super helpful article! Thanks.
what is your current height/weight/body fat%?
if you are say + 15% body fat, then my recommendation would be to keep eating in a deficit, lifting, and throwing in some cardio to get your body fat down to 15% range and under. Once you hit that range, then you can look into bulk/cutting cycles and/or recomp....0 -
Really? Even if I worked out in the morning on Monday? I always thought you built the most muscle immediately after a workout.
You would cycle your surplus on Tuesday-Thursday since those are rest days. All you're doing by eating a more on lift days is fueling the workout.
Off days? You can build muscle for 2-3 days AFTER a workout though, right? Not only on days you don't lift. If I only lift on Monday and Wednesday I don't feel like it would do me a whole lot of good to eat a surplus on Saturday and Sunday.
Essentially this is body recomp. But IMO, you eat surplus on the off days since rebuilding muscle happens when your aren't tearing it down by working out.What would happen if you, for instance, lift on Monday mornings and Wednesday mornings and eat a surplus Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but then eat on a deficit for the rest of the week?
It would be slow, but in effect wouldn't you be gaining muscle and losing weight in the same week? In theory at least.0 -
This may be one of the better discussions I've read in while.
I am in the same boat as others here. I need to cut the fat first before I can build muscle. I generally lift low weight and do lots of reps for that reason. I'm not sure I really want to bulk up anyway. I'm just not dedicated to going to the gym and lifting. I go there to balance out sitting at a desk all day.
Keep it up.
Many reps of low weight really does not accomplish a lot. You don't necessarily have to rip your arms out of their sockets either but fewer reps of a bit more aggressive weight will do more to improve your strength and endurance. If you are on a calorie deficit, you don't have to worry much about bulking up anyway. Best wishes on every success.
More great info. Thanks! How do you figure out where to start with weights? I guess just kinda give it a shot? Is there, like, a test - like a range of reps you should be able to do before you can't do any more to kind of figure out a good starting place?
I would recommend picking up a copy of starting strength and/or new rules of lifting and reading them. Once you have read them, it would be beneficial - IMO - to build a program of heavy lifting around compound movements = deadlift, bench press, squats, overhead press, chin up/pull ups. You should be lifting heavy, for you, and working in the 6-10 rep range. You can then put together a program that looks something like..
Monday - chest/arms
Tuesday - cardio
wens - legs
thurs - cardio/abs
Friday - back/shoulders
sat/sunday - active rest/rest/etc < should definitely have at least one, one hundred percent rest day.
After three to four months you can go to a more advanced routine like four day upper/lower split and less cardio...0 -
So why wouldn't these concepts work for people with more body fat? I don't intend on reading the book or ever being near or below 10% body fat.What would happen if you, for instance, lift on Monday mornings and Wednesday mornings and eat a surplus Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but then eat on a deficit for the rest of the week?
It would be slow, but in effect wouldn't you be gaining muscle and losing weight in the same week? In theory at least.
See mixed approaches like Lyle McDonald's UD2.0 or Berkhan's Leangains for examples of how these kind of approaches can be set up. Sidenote: they generally are more for people at the lower end of the bf scale. If you're not in the low 10's, you probably won't get much out of these approaches anyway.
My concept is pretty simple: I try to eat on a surplus for a couple days after I lift, but if I haven't been able to make it to the gym for a while I eat on a deficit. My life is too chaotic to follow a strict program, I just try to establish some guidelines to follow.
I'm not going to reproduce Martin or Lyle's work here verbatim. They both have a tonne of free articles that touch on the problems associated with losing fat when you're already quite lean.
Check out leangains.com for Berkhan's take and http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ for Lyle's take.
It's not that extreme measure won't work on more obese people. It's that they're unnecessary for these people, who can lose bf just fine without destroying their muscle. Why go to through the convoluted hell that is two days of depletion workouts on 1200 cals if you can just run a moderate daily deficit?0 -
You would cycle your surplus on Tuesday-Thursday since those are rest days. All you're doing by eating a more on lift days is fueling the workout.
Off days? You can build muscle for 2-3 days AFTER a workout though, right? Not only on days you don't lift. If I only lift on Monday and Wednesday I don't feel like it would do me a whole lot of good to eat a surplus on Saturday and Sunday.
Essentially this is body recomp. But IMO, you eat surplus on the off days since rebuilding muscle happens when your aren't tearing it down by working out.What would happen if you, for instance, lift on Monday mornings and Wednesday mornings and eat a surplus Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but then eat on a deficit for the rest of the week?
It would be slow, but in effect wouldn't you be gaining muscle and losing weight in the same week? In theory at least.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Really?? Hmm that is interesting..I always thought you wanted to eat more on work out days and the less on non workout days...interesting....0 -
Really? Even if I worked out in the morning on Monday? I always thought you built the most muscle immediately after a workout.
Truth be told, I thought that was while you were resting...mostly during sleep0 -
Really?? Hmm that is interesting..I always thought you wanted to eat more on work out days and the less on non workout days...interesting....
Really depends on what your goals are....0 -
Really?? Hmm that is interesting..I always thought you wanted to eat more on work out days and the less on non workout days...interesting....
Really depends on what your goals are....
I do along those lines since I am doing intermittent fasting.....
but I am not trying to bulk....just trying to get more ripped/toned0 -
If muscle was built immediately after a work out, DOMS wouldn't exist.Really? Even if I worked out in the morning on Monday? I always thought you built the most muscle immediately after a workout.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I didn't read all of the responses, but I did copy a few of the links mentioned to read later.
Here's what has been working for me. I started out as a "cardio queen." I lost weight (on the scale). I was only tracking my calories, not looking at my macros. I was also eating at a deficit...maybe 200 cals/day. I got smaller, but was "skinny fat."
I started strength-training. My husband helped start me out in the gym. I started out pretty slow...but he pushed me to go heavier with weights. When I started to push myself with heavier weights I noticed a bigger change in the appearance of my body (reduced fat/increased muscle). He said 8 to 10 reps per set for 5 sets...when I hit 5x10 I go up in weight (sometimes I go up in weight before this on legs, b/c I just know I can...sometimes it takes me a little longer to go up in weight on my upper body).
I have a friend who is a nutritionist; I talked to her and switched my macros around and started looking more closely at my macros. I set the MFP ratios at 35 fat/30 protein/35 carbs. Once I did this, I started to notice more change in my appearance. I don't ALWAYS stay within this ratio everyday, but I DO always hit my protein goal (or exceed it).
As far as calories, some days I eat at a small deficit (small meaning 50 cals), some days I eat at maintenance, some days I go over by 200 cals. I shoot for most days to be under or at maintenance...one or 2 days a week over.
I think your original question was something like: can you lose fat/gain muscle and remain the same weight? I've pretty much maintained my weight since I started strength training, but I am 2 sizes smaller.0 -
in for the interesting.0
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Lots of people get surprised at how they look once the hit the low 10's in body fat. They may not have gained size, but their muscularity makes them look so they've added it when that's usually not the case. And with more strength gained it would seem logical which is why it gets touted so much by many dieting programs that include resistance training. The advertising behind most programs are usually worded to attract the type of client they want to join and train. For instance, Barre or Pilates will state that one is "building" long lean muscle. In reality, muscle is attached to the limbs at birth. There's no way to lengthen them (one can be more flexible) unless the bones somehow get longer and only surgery does that.At last, a thread that I can relate to!
I've been eating at a small deficit for the last few months now - am also training for endurance - offroad duathlons of approx 25-40k and I also have been following a stronglift 5x5 program.
I have lost loads of weight and now look like I have put muscle on. I would say that I have probably kept a decent portion of my muscle as I was eating high protein and lifting the weights - I am very much stronger that I was 6 months ago.
Looking in the mirror I have a defined six pack (lol - such a simple measurement of success) and I look so much more well built than I used to even though I might have lost some bulk - what is left is stronger and easier to see.
I have just about plateau'd at 12st8ish - 79 ish kilo - 180lbs is - and am not planning to lose any more but to take the slow route to recomp even though the temptation is there to eat a lot, lift a lot and get bulky! Must resist...
So - I say you can become stronger, look more well built and be perfectly awesome on a deficit - and I would go ahead and lose the excess weight and fat first, before you then decide to bulk up - as you'll find that by the time you can see your ix pack then all your other muscle definition will be so much clearer it will look like you have more muscle too.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I'd totally agree with you. I look miles better now (if I was able to post a pic I would, but at work ;p )
I started all this with a desire to lose the weight that I never previously thought I was lugging about - I thought I looked OK...I thought I was strong and I was pretty sure I was fit enough as well..
Hindsight is always 20/20
Now - I wight 4/5th of what I started at - 100+kg to 80kg (220lbs to 175lbs)
I am fitter than I ever have been
I look awesome.
As I touched on before - - I also feel that I want to put some muscle on and have decided I don't need to do this as my main goals are endurance and cardio - I am happy with where I am right now and so to put weight on and to bulk up in a specific targeted way is not what I need. If I manage to recomp then that is happy days!0 -
To build muscle requires you to be anabolic...just as building fat requires you to be anabolic. When you are in a deficit, you are chronically catabolic which is why you lose fat (and in the absence of resistance training you can also lose significant amounts of muscle).
You aren't going to really build muscle in a deficit...you will preserve what you have...you will make strength gains (increasing mass is not required) and your composition will change for the better (your muscles that you have will pop more), but you will not pack on muscle in a calorie deficit.
Once you drop your BF down you can either opt for a bulk or just eat to maintenance and hit the weight room. I personally don't need to bulk and I've done a nice re-comp over the last 9 months or so just eating to maintenance and lifting. But yeah...if you really wanted to put on some mass you would have to do a slow bulk with a small calorie surplus (to minimize fat gain).
This ^^^ and nicely summarized I might add.0 -
I am focusing on losing weight first then I will add muscle!!!0
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I am focusing on losing weight first then I will add muscle!!!
So you should be lifting now to minimize the amount of muscle you lose as you lose the fat0 -
If muscle was built immediately after a work out, DOMS wouldn't exist.Really? Even if I worked out in the morning on Monday? I always thought you built the most muscle immediately after a workout.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
yea, I guess that is a true statement..
so you are saying that if I was doing upper/lower split ..Mon/Tues Thurs/Friday that higher cal days should be Wens/Sat/Sunday and then lower on M, Tues, Thurs, Friday?0 -
I've trying to do the same thing, and I've found Tabata training to be helpful. It's a crash of strength and cardio slammed into four minutes of hell. right now (since i just started) im doing two sessions a day for each workout. Next month I'm going to go to three sessions, maybe four if i don't think it'll be too much for me.0
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As far as calories, some days I eat at a small deficit (small meaning 50 cals), some days I eat at maintenance, some days I go over by 200 cals. I shoot for most days to be under or at maintenance...one or 2 days a week over.
I think your original question was something like: can you lose fat/gain muscle and remain the same weight? I've pretty much maintained my weight since I started strength training, but I am 2 sizes smaller.
This has been my experience over the past year, as well. It takes patience, but it's worth it.0 -
If muscle was built immediately after a work out, DOMS wouldn't exist.Really? Even if I worked out in the morning on Monday? I always thought you built the most muscle immediately after a workout.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
yea, I guess that is a true statement..
so you are saying that if I was doing upper/lower split ..Mon/Tues Thurs/Friday that higher cal days should be Wens/Sat/Sunday and then lower on M, Tues, Thurs, Friday?
I would say keep higher calories on workout days
Lower on rest....
Again, that is what I do....0 -
See mixed approaches like Lyle McDonald's UD2.0 or Berkhan's Leangains for examples of how these kind of approaches can be set up. Sidenote: they generally are more for people at the lower end of the bf scale. If you're not in the low 10's, you probably won't get much out of these approaches anyway.
ETA: kirk_r already mentioned this above. Apologies to him, didn't see his post when I scrolled through...
Pushing good science and experience based info is nothing to apologize for.
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