High Caloric Needs for Weight Loss
Replies
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The reason I disagreed, is because the reality is that far more people think they are 'different' than they actually are. Metabolism is constantly evolving, adapting and dynamic, it responds to new stimulus but it does not hold onto the past indefinitely.
Maybe, you are a unique case, but If I held this conversation with ten people saying the same as you, most are stuck in a rut unable to lose weight because they are seeing a god-awful physician or even worse, a local-gym personal trainer who has convinced them they need X amount of calories because of a BMR equation which has not even been developed in that population group.
That is something I would not wish on anyone.
I just don't understand why you disagree with an approach that generates 6-7 pounds a week in loss while drastically improving my overall health, without the use of intervention surgery.
If that's happening, then great continue! If your getting the results, that's all that really matters.0 -
Find me any hard evidence to suggest that there eating disorder permanently alters metabolism? I promise to retract all comments if there is any. All the studies i'm aware of that have even looked at this have found any changes are entirely short-term, your body doesn't care about the past, it cares about the present and the immediate metabolic situation. On the other hand, I can find you a thousand studies looking at the severe effects of obesity on metabolism and life-span. I am sorry if I am concerned when I hear someone very obese believe that eating such a high calorie intake is essential to their weight loss regime. As for physicians, well many appear to actually know very little about metabolism, as is evident from the 30+ years anti-fat campaign.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016517810000144X -- Particularly the finding that leptin production was out of whack even when body weight returned to normal. If you want to look for more stuff, Google is out there but I can't be bothered doing the research for you.
Also are you seriously trying to argue that someone's lived experience is inaccurate? Seriously? Are you saying the OP is lying? Are you saying they are mistaken? Are you actually claiming to know more about the OP's body than they do? And their doctor? Seriously?
ETA: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1957930: "To maintain stable weight after weight restoration, restricting anorexic patients require a significantly higher caloric intake than do bulimic anorexic patients."
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=493309 "Long-term weight-recovered (20 ± 7 months) anorectics, however, had a 50% decrease in CSF NE level compared with that of controls."0 -
Find me any hard evidence to suggest that there eating disorder permanently alters metabolism? I promise to retract all comments if there is any. All the studies i'm aware of that have even looked at this have found any changes are entirely short-term, your body doesn't care about the past, it cares about the present and the immediate metabolic situation. On the other hand, I can find you a thousand studies looking at the severe effects of obesity on metabolism and life-span. I am sorry if I am concerned when I hear someone very obese believe that eating such a high calorie intake is essential to their weight loss regime. As for physicians, well many appear to actually know very little about metabolism, as is evident from the 30+ years anti-fat campaign.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016517810000144X -- Particularly the finding that leptin production was out of whack even when body weight returned to normal. If you want to look for more stuff, Google is out there but I can't be bothered doing the research for you.
Also are you seriously trying to argue that someone's lived experience is inaccurate? Seriously? Are you saying the OP is lying? Are you saying they are mistaken? Are you actually claiming to know more about the OP's body than they do? And their doctor? Seriously?
Why are you so defensive?
The article you posted is for people with eating disorders, not post ED trying to lose weight.
1. "Lived" experience can undoubtedly be useful, but also can be misleading.
2. I do not believe the OP is lying.
3. I am questioning the information they have been told.
4. I am questioning whether there is such a big difference it completely alters substrate metabolism.
5. As for their doctor, I do not know them, or anything about them, but do you always trust your doctor? I wouldn't and would appreciate second-opinions on anything I wasn't certain about.
In response to your edit, thanks for two more studies showing changes in metabolism acutely with ED individuals.0 -
The reason I disagreed, is because the reality is that far more people think they are 'different' than they actually are. Metabolism is constantly evolving, adapting and dynamic, it responds to new stimulus but it does not hold onto the past indefinitely.
Maybe, you are a unique case, but If I held this conversation with ten people saying the same as you, most are stuck in a rut unable to lose weight because they are seeing a god-awful physician or even worse, a local-gym personal trainer who has convinced them they need X amount of calories because of a BMR equation which has not even been developed in that population group.
That is something I would not wish on anyone.
So based on some generalised assumption you've started derailing the OP's thread with information they don't want, information they aren't asking for, and information that doesn't apply to them? No one is saying your metabolism holds onto the past indefinitely. The OP is saying their metabolism shuts down when they have a deficit of more than 2000 calories. That's the present point in time, not past.
If you think gaining weight just magically erases years of damage to your body from disordered eating then...I just don't even know what to say, really. I just think you should do more listening than you do talking. Especially since you plan on working in this field.0 -
Why are you so defensive?
The article you posted is for people with eating disorders, not post ED trying to lose weight.
1. "Lived" experience can undoubtedly be useful, but also can be misleading.
2. I do not believe the OP is lying.
3. I am questioning the information they have been told.
4. I am questioning whether there is such a big difference it completely alters substrate metabolism.
5. As for their doctor, I do not know them, or anything about them, but do you always trust your doctor? I wouldn't and would appreciate second-opinions on anything I wasn't certain about.
In response to your edit, thanks for two more studies showing changes in metabolism acutely with ED individuals.
I'm not defensive. I'm getting irritated that you are undermining the OP's reality. And I'm irritated you are spouting off misinformation about EDs and ED recovery.
LOL at the claim that lived experience can be misleading. There's actually only one reality and that's the reality we experience. Your lived experience is not my experience, or anyone else's. And not everyone's experience can be generalised to others.
At the end of the day, the OP is getting the results they want doing what you're saying is wrong. Where is that misleading? Your advice -- which the OP has tried in the past *unsuccessfully* -- is what's misleading here.
Besides, the OP isn't "uncertain" about advice from their doctor. They know it works. They don't want a second opinion. And if they did, I'm sure it wouldn't be yours. They want tips on how to achieve their goals.
And that's my last post on the matter. Thanks!0 -
The reason I disagreed, is because the reality is that far more people think they are 'different' than they actually are. Metabolism is constantly evolving, adapting and dynamic, it responds to new stimulus but it does not hold onto the past indefinitely.
Maybe, you are a unique case, but If I held this conversation with ten people saying the same as you, most are stuck in a rut unable to lose weight because they are seeing a god-awful physician or even worse, a local-gym personal trainer who has convinced them they need X amount of calories because of a BMR equation which has not even been developed in that population group.
That is something I would not wish on anyone.
So based on some generalised assumption you've started derailing the OP's thread with information they don't want, information they aren't asking for, and information that doesn't apply to them? No one is saying your metabolism holds onto the past indefinitely. The OP is saying their metabolism shuts down when they have a deficit of more than 2000 calories. That's the present point in time, not past.
If you think gaining weight just magically erases years of damage to your body from disordered eating then...I just don't even know what to say, really. I just think you should do more listening than you do talking. Especially since you plan on working in this field.
Maybe my posting here was inappropriate, but it was out of genuine concern, and I am certainly not the only person to have done so. I also explained my point, and stated that I genuinely wished the best for the OP. You on the other hand have jumped in questioning every comment made, on the basis that the OP is always right in every post so that offence cannot ever be given (which seems to be a trend for you having seen your other posts).
I understand the OP getting defensive, because I have raised criticism/concern over conclusions about the extremely high energy requirements for someone so overweight (to me being obese is far more relevant to metabolism than past ED). I saw this was getting out of hand, so wished the best to the OP.
On the other hand, I think you have serious argumentative issues which are not supported by your qualifications as a broscientist.
Over and out.0 -
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Find me any hard evidence to suggest that there eating disorder permanently alters metabolism? I promise to retract all comments if there is any. All the studies i'm aware of that have even looked at this have found any changes are entirely short-term, your body doesn't care about the past, it cares about the present and the immediate metabolic situation. On the other hand, I can find you a thousand studies looking at the severe effects of obesity on metabolism and life-span. I am sorry if I am concerned when I hear someone very obese believe that eating such a high calorie intake is essential to their weight loss regime. As for physicians, well many appear to actually know very little about metabolism, as is evident from the 30+ years anti-fat campaign.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016517810000144X -- Particularly the finding that leptin production was out of whack even when body weight returned to normal. If you want to look for more stuff, Google is out there but I can't be bothered doing the research for you.
Also are you seriously trying to argue that someone's lived experience is inaccurate? Seriously? Are you saying the OP is lying? Are you saying they are mistaken? Are you actually claiming to know more about the OP's body than they do? And their doctor? Seriously?
Why are you so defensive?
The article you posted is for people with eating disorders, not post ED trying to lose weight.
1. "Lived" experience can undoubtedly be useful, but also can be misleading.
2. I do not believe the OP is lying.
3. I am questioning the information they have been told.
4. I am questioning whether there is such a big difference it completely alters substrate metabolism.
5. As for their doctor, I do not know them, or anything about them, but do you always trust your doctor? I wouldn't and would appreciate second-opinions on anything I wasn't certain about.
In response to your edit, thanks for two more studies showing changes in metabolism acutely with ED individuals.
I'm responding to this to explain something to you...
There is no "post-eating disorder." I am in recovery like an alcoholic is in recovery. FOR LIFE. I'm a diagnosed anorexic, bulimic, compulsive eating disordered person. This means that through the course of my life since the onset of anorexia nervosa at the age of 17, I have cycled from one to the next, which is not entirely uncommon or unique. While there are periods of "remission" where the issues are not as acutely health impacting, I'm by no means cured and "post" the issue. People with eating disorders are at all weights, shapes, and ages. Being fat doesn't mean that you are not suffering from ED. In fact, my being fat is a direct result of my ED, and some of the downfalls I've had since starting have been due to the ED.
A person who develops an eating disorder is impacted for the REST OF THEIR LIFE. The impact to the body is done. The articles are addressing the needs of a body that has been impacted by disordered eating. I would also suggest you read up on things like Refeeding Syndrome, which is one of the things that I still struggle with to this day... If I was "cured," refeeding within normal ranges wouldn't make me as sick as it does.
It's obvious that at least in this, you are not well-educated. This is not metabolism research, this is psychological, which happens to impact the physical.
I'm so glad, though, that my looking for cheap variety in my meals has gotten hijacked into a thread full of triggering messages and lack of support. I don't get genuine support from your messages. I get the impression that you think your 4 years of "doctoral research" has somehow trumped my 14 years of firsthand experience, or my professional team's collective decades worth of experience.
The stuff you've gone on, it was all addressed before you said anything... had you read it all, you could have saved us all a lot of pretentious show and tell time.0 -
This is my full list of "healthy" higher calorie foods that I whip out when people need to know how to hit their (low) numbers. In terms of cost...I asterisked the ones that might work for you.
* Chicken with the skin
Steak
Cheese
* Whole eggs (including deviled eggs, egg salad)
Full fat dairy (including cottage cheese, yogurt)
Fruit
* Peanut butter or other nut butters
Nuts
Avocado
Dried fruit (raisins, apricots, apples)
Dark chocolate
Salmon
Add Chia seeds to salads or yogurt
* Olive oil
Smoothies
Granola/sports nutrition bars
* Whole grains or whole grain products (like brown rice, Quinoa, oatmeal)
Dried beans are a nice staple.
I really like the Abs Diet cookbook for the recipes and they can easily become higher calorie (there's a great black bean/Tuna salad recipe that's great on a tortilla with cheese).
Cocoa rice cakes with peanut butter taste like a candy bar and don't have a lot of sugar.0 -
I just found a wonderful dessert/snack packed with protein and calories.
8oz vanilla greek yogurt
1 scoop (maybe you could use 2) of chocolate/flavoured protein powder
1-2 tbsp peanut butter
Makes a yummy treat for 30-55g protein, and 400-550 calories (depending on protein powder and PB)
I also add powder to smoothies, pancakes, muffins etc to get my protein in.0 -
Hey Quasita, congrats on figuring out what works for your body!
There is no "one size fits all" dietary approach. And I respect those who are open minded to what is working for others. We each need to figure out for ourselves what works and what doesn't. And I've been hearing more and more about people who do well by eating more (especially those who have dieted pretty hard in the past). Cool.
I too am increasing my daily protein. And I'm finding that adding milk and greek yogurt really helps. I can only "chew" so much chicken every day, know what I mean?
I'm drinking lactose free milk right now, simply because I've avoided milk for years (thinking it was not healthy), and I wanted to let my body acclimate to it. I feel great! And I'm finding it's pretty simple (and inexpensive) to meet my protein goals.
Aloha!0 -
Best thing you can do is to track everything you eat for a week or two, go by what your body signals you to do. weight yourself at the end of the week to see if you have gained, maintained or lost weight. If you have lost weight stay in that calorie range. if you have not start by cutting your daily caloric intake by 15% . I would definitely suggest a lower carb diet with high fats and protein but not 300-400 grams you are going to damage your liver. aim for about 120 grams of carbs and fill the rest with fats and protein. You are probably insulin resistant at this point Intermittent fasting could help, and also a good HITT workout. I have to agree with others that that amount of calories is not good for. I do understand that you had an eating disorder which probably caused you the metabolic syndrome you have. Before you start dieting you might need to try some reverse dieting in order to get your thyroid back up to normal. try some iodine supplements also not kelp as the iodine content is often inaccurate and always varies from where it was harvested. You can also try some chromium gtf, and ala. Those can help with the insulin resistance. As for good sources of protein eggs, whey, chicken thighs, etc. Costco has great prices if you can get to one.0
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Also, starvation mode does not stop weight loss, let alone make you gain weight. It just means your metabolism slows down. It 100% does NOT erase your deficit, and eating less calories will IN THE LONG RUN make you lose weight faster than eating 3000-4000 a day. Initial weight gain was probably water weight/body's short-term attempt to hold on to fat, but it would release it eventually. You are sorely mistaken.
Edit: and also, based on your photos, I don't think anyone would put you at 200 pounds. I know this is probably coming off as mean, but you are really overestimating your lean body mass.0 -
I"ve def done the trial and error method too. I work full time so I feel ya on the snacks and easy to get at work. Hummus and veggies always seem to work good. Different nuts too, but yea they are pricey, and chicken and black beans helps me stay full too... Little adjustments at a time I think are better then nothing. I find its easier to have all those snacks on stand by so if I get hungry i chew on those versus a work donut or cake thats always around. LOL Working in an office sucks.0
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Milkshakes with protein powder and peanuts or peanut butter and lots of them.0
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First, I just want to say I'm sorry for some of the comments you're getting. I'm certainly not in your boat, but I have a similar situation that with a smaller caloric deficit, I lose more weight, and people just can't seem to comprehend that. I, like you, have lost my hunger cues. I was never diagnosed with anything because I never had insurance, but I just went longer, and longer between meals, sometimes over a day or more before I realised I hadn't eaten. It wasn't intentional (at least, not consciously), but it's had an impact over more than a decade. When I explain that I eat more and I lose, people say I'm obviously miscalculating how much I eat on the low days. Well, even supposing that's true, it's hard to miscalculate THAT MUCH when you go 12 hours before realising you haven't eaten, then eat a lean cuisine, and go to bed.
I, too, have struggled with getting in enough calories in a day, and I don't do it in the healthiest way. When I get to the end of the day and realise I still have another 800 or more to go, I'll have cookies and milk, or other, not so healthy methods, BUT I am consistently losing weight this way. Obviously my methods aren't going to work for you if you and your doctors have agreed on you macros, where I'm just getting in enough calories any which way (which isn't to say I don't try to be healthy, or eat well for the most part, but it doesn't always work out that way, and the healthy stuff is generally low calorie, so I end up needing to eat more and it's exhausting and I don't want to do it, so I revert to the skipping meals and it's a vicious cycle).
I try to fit more protein in wherever I can, but am still no where near my suggested macros, so take it with a grain of salt, but:
Post workout shakes with greek yoghurt (stores regularly have it on 10 for 10 sales in the smaller containers, or 2 for 3 on larger ones) or peanut butter (or any nut butter, whatever's cheapest) to thicken, plus protein powder (store brands are pretty cheap)
We shop in the clearance section for meat and seafood--you get over half off most of the time and then just break it up into single servings to freeze. It's a day or two from going bad, but if you take it out as you need it, you should be fine.
Also seconding all the people who said shop for what's cheap. You can check out all the local store ads online to figure out what the deals on meat will be for that week. Again, stock up and freeze.
Hummus with veggies or protein bread. You can make your own hummus with chickpeas and tahini, and chickpeas are super, super cheap, especially if you buy them dried and rehydrate them.
Target has a sale in the first quarter of the year, for items in bulk, including nuts. Bulk store sized items for cheap, cheap prices, and soon that stuff will be going on clearance.
If you have a store rewards card, check out the sites that let you put coupons directly on it--there are a lot of sales for buy 4 of a certain type of item and get a nice chunk of change back. This happens on a lot of different brands of protein bars like Fiber One, Lara, Luna, and more. I'm never going to be one of those extreme coupon people, but I try to make it work for me. Also check out any of the printable coupon sites, if you've got a printer, because you can combine store sales, the printable coupons, and the reward card coupons together to sometimes get 2-4 dollars off, sometimes making things free or close to it.
Anyway, sorry for the frustration--I know these people think they're helping, but I guess I don't understand what's going on in their minds. We want to lose weight, we've figured out what's best for us through trial and error and are LOSING weight. Why would we lie to them about it????0 -
Canned tuna! When that stuff is on sale, I load up! (Less than a dollar a can!) Same with canned chicken or even canned beef. Beef jerky is really good, too. If you have access to a fridge, Greek yogurt is awesome. Once in a while, you can find protein bars online super cheap and I really like certain ones. But it's about taste. I also like protein smoothies but you could add protein powder to almost anything. You can get HUGE bags of different flavors on places like Amazon. If you have somewhere like a Costco, you can buy bulk meats and that will help. I saw that quinoa was suggested and that's great. Nuts are good, but really are more fat. But hey, if you have that and an apple... YUM. I can't think of many others right now. I've been working on getting my protein up to 120 and boy am I having a time! So, I can imagine the frustration of trying to double that. But I think your best bet would be to find a good protein bar/powder. Or the canned tuna/chicken. Both should be good at room temp and easy to make. Good luck!0
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Ok, I realize this response is very late. I believe a lot of the advice posted before me is exactly what you "want" to hear (lots of eggs, peanut butter, full fat milk, blah blah blah and all that crap). I think this will get you in the wrong direction, please steer clear of the paleo diet (and definitely not Atkins) suggested my some above me.
If you want to eat 3000+ calories I suggest a high carb plant based diet. You can pack a banana & fruit smoothie that is easily over 1000 calories and you do not have to be eating all day. As with everyone else saying you don't have to eat so much, YES YOU DO BRAVO!!! Eating high calorie will turn your body into a fat-burner, just like you proved to yourself that one time.
If you're worried about the "sugars", don't be. There is a lot of evident behind fruit based lifestyles. Go check out the book 80/10/10 by Dr. D. Grahm and watch Freelee the Banana Girl on Youtube (she eats 3000+ calories a day and she is wayyy skinny!!). Also, if you are not that into fruit then go read The Starch Solution.
Best of luck on your journey,
Becky
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Ok, I realize this response is very late. I believe a lot of the advice posted before me is exactly what you "want" to hear (lots of eggs, peanut butter, full fat milk, blah blah blah and all that crap). I think this will get you in the wrong direction, please steer clear of the paleo diet (and definitely not Atkins) suggested my some above me.
If you want to eat 3000+ calories I suggest a high carb plant based diet. You can pack a banana & fruit smoothie that is easily over 1000 calories and you do not have to be eating all day. As with everyone else saying you don't have to eat so much, YES YOU DO BRAVO!!! Eating high calorie will turn your body into a fat-burner, just like you proved to yourself that one time.
If you're worried about the "sugars", don't be. There is a lot of evident behind fruit based lifestyles. Go check out the book 80/10/10 by Dr. D. Grahm and watch Freelee the Banana Girl on Youtube (she eats 3000+ calories a day and she is wayyy skinny!!). Also, if you are not that into fruit then go read The Starch Solution.
Best of luck on your journey,
Becky
I predict that this first post may not go over very well.0 -
Ok, I realize this response is very late. I believe a lot of the advice posted before me is exactly what you "want" to hear (lots of eggs, peanut butter, full fat milk, blah blah blah and all that crap). I think this will get you in the wrong direction, please steer clear of the paleo diet (and definitely not Atkins) suggested my some above me.
If you want to eat 3000+ calories I suggest a high carb plant based diet. You can pack a banana & fruit smoothie that is easily over 1000 calories and you do not have to be eating all day. As with everyone else saying you don't have to eat so much, YES YOU DO BRAVO!!! Eating high calorie will turn your body into a fat-burner, just like you proved to yourself that one time.
If you're worried about the "sugars", don't be. There is a lot of evident behind fruit based lifestyles. Go check out the book 80/10/10 by Dr. D. Grahm and watch Freelee the Banana Girl on Youtube (she eats 3000+ calories a day and she is wayyy skinny!!). Also, if you are not that into fruit then go read The Starch Solution.
Best of luck on your journey,
Becky
LOLFreelee as an example to follow.
Oh, MFP. Don't ever change.
Don't. Ever. Change.
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