Recovery shakes: Whey or Soy?

rml_16

And from Vanderbilt University (please pay special attention to the very last sentence, which is my point -- and FYI, a typical chicken breast has about 23 grams of protein for the non-vegetarians out there):

A study done by Fern et. al (1991) showed that greater gains in body mass occur over four weeks of heavy weight training when young men consumed 3.3 versus 1.3 grams if protein per kilogram of body mass. In addition a study done by Meredith et al. (1992) found that a daily dietary supplement containing 23 grams of protein combined with weight training can enhance muscle mass gains relative to similar subjects who trained with out the supplement. Both of the studies show support for the belief that increased protein in the diet can help increase muscle mass, but it should be noted that these effects were found with a combination of intake and training. These two studies further indicated that a protein intake of about 1.7 - 1.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day, when combined with weight training will enhance muscle development compared with similar training with an intake of 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day (5.) However, it is important to note that there is little good evidence that the very high protein intakes (more than 2 grams per kilogram of body weight per day) typically consumed by strength athletes are beneficial. Moreover, it is possible to obtain this quantity of protein without special supplementation assuming a mixed diet containing sufficient energy is consumed.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/ans/psychology/health_psychology/Protein.htm#PROTEIN AND ATHLETES

Edorice -- I am not "skinny fat." I accomplished your pushup challenge. I swim for hours a week (which IS strength training combined with cardio). I climb several flights of stairs daily without getting tired or winded or having muscle fatigue. And now I challenge you to do boat pose five times straight, holding for 30 seconds each time. Pushups are cake compared to that, but you'll find out what kind of ab strength I have if you try it. I'm not an idiot. I know weight training, etc., is necessary to get the LOOK we're all going for. I'm just saying expensive, low-quality protein powders aren't necessary to achieve it, and in the end can actually cause health problems. If you all want to risk that, then be my guests. I will leave you all to your protein powders now. :drinker:

oats4breakfast

Well i do have a degree in nutritional education actually its a dual bachelors in Sports Medicine and Athletic Training.
To answer whey protein is better it will help build muscle and reduce soreness if you dont want to spend the money on protein shakes chocolate milk (i blend in a banana and its amazing) is a good option for recovery. The only way protein shakes are harmful to you is drinking over your protein limit and avoiding normal foods. Good example someone who drinks a protein shake for both breakfast and lunch then has large protein amounts for dinner like a steak will be eating to much protein which can become harmful but you would have to do that combo for multiple weeks. Also avoid protein shakes that have the word "MASS" in their names they are extra calories that you dont need and are designed for weight gain and will hamper weight loss.

I don't care too much about this argument. But I wanted to know what you're take is on too much protein. I've read all sorts of different articles etc about what is and isn't too much. So, if you please, can you add one more for me

e.g.
I'm a 220 pound 6'2" reasonably athletic guy. On workouts days, I'll get to my bodyweight, and sometimes over in protein, but typically it's in that 150gm range (my standard 2000 cal MFP goal, modded to 40/30/30, sets me at 150). I do supplement on workout days (hitting body hard like weight/crossfit training, not just walking or riding a stationary bike for an extended period of time - I don't supplement post cardio days), but most of my protein (easily 80-90% on average) comes from diet (omnivore). I try to get the 40/30/30 splits and 90% of time I have that nailed, my calcium levels are perfectly fine. Rarely do I meal replace except for breakfast - like oats&whey with a banana when on the go or getting up real early for golf - and I'll oats/whey shake at the turn too, but that's on tournament days when walking, not "all rounds". I do post workout "shake" with both carbs and protein, but I also eat real food too. When my protein intake is real high, like 260+ grams (never over 300 - I start watching it when I reach 220) it also coincides with a really high calorie burn workout and I'm really buggered and burning. Even MFP says I should be eating over 200 on those days.
Is it when you start eating your bodyweight and more in protein without any workouts or good calcium intake ? Or other ?
When does it become a problem ? Obviously 5 times a month spreadout isn't going to do it, but if we're at X level for 3 weeks, then that could be interesting. What is X ?

If you see this (because it's almost impossible to follow the threads in here with the amount of topics and posts), I'd be interested in your thoughts. And no, this is not a setup for a flame war or anything.
Cheers

edorice

Edorice -- I am not "skinny fat." I accomplished your pushup challenge. I swim for hours a week (which IS strength training combined with cardio). I climb several flights of stairs daily without getting tired or winded or having muscle fatigue. And now I challenge you to do boat pose five times straight, holding for 30 seconds each time. Pushups are cake compared to that, but you'll find out what kind of ab strength I have if you try it. I'm not an idiot. I know weight training, etc., is necessary to get the LOOK we're all going for. I'm just saying expensive, low-quality protein powders aren't necessary to achieve it, and in the end can actually cause health problems. If you all want to risk that, then be my guests. I will leave you all to your protein powders now. :drinker:

I can rock boat pose all day long. I do yoga weekly. Any other challenges?

StephieWheats

OK, I'm not going to argue this on my own. Here:

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/sports_health/nutrition/protein.aspx

An athlete requires 1.1 to 2 grams of protein per kilogram of ideal body weight each day, depending on the type and intensity of the sport he or she is involved in.

For example, a 150-pound athlete (150 divided by 2.2 = 68 kilograms) requires 75-136 grams of protein each day (68 x 1.1 = 75 grams; 68 x 2.0 = 136 grams).

Did you read your own post the amount of protein you would have to eat in order to have extra protein? Here is an example using that same site a 150 lb adult would have to eat 24oz of steak in a day to be over their protein limit. I dont know about you but thats a lot of steak or protein in general.

Protein is needed in the diet to build and repair damaged muscles. However, eating a high protein diet (more than 2 grams per kilogram of body weight) does not necessarily lead to larger muscles. In fact, if you eat more protein than you need, your body will simply use it as an energy source or store it as fat.

Are protein or amino acid supplements needed?
No. You do not need to spend money on protein powders, pills or special supplements to add protein to your diet. Protein supplements simply provide extra calories – they do not provide a "magical formula" to increase muscle strength. Regular foods can provide protein more economically than protein supplements.

Amino acid supplements do not help you gain muscle and they can actually cause an amino acid imbalance in your body. Amino acids (the building blocks of protein) are naturally found in foods in balanced amounts.

The amount of protein or amino acid in expensive powders and pills is less than the amount you might easily get from food. For example, you have to eat 5 tablespoons of one popular protein powder to get the same amount of protein in 3 1/2 ounces of tuna.



And from Rice University: http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/caryn/protein.html

There is so much information, misinformation, fad diets and nutrition "quackery" available, it is hard to know what to believe. If you go to a health food/vitamin store, a vitamin "expert" (i.e. untrained, non-licensed sales clerk) will convince you to purchase hundreds of dollars of protein powders and protein supplements. These powders and supplements merely amount to very expensive urine.

*sigh* I think you need to go have a steak and quit poorly advising people. You are fighting with someone who has a 6 year degree behind them. Its a losing battle.

StephieWheats

Edorice -- I am not "skinny fat." I accomplished your pushup challenge. I swim for hours a week (which IS strength training combined with cardio). I climb several flights of stairs daily without getting tired or winded or having muscle fatigue. And now I challenge you to do boat pose five times straight, holding for 30 seconds each time. Pushups are cake compared to that, but you'll find out what kind of ab strength I have if you try it. I'm not an idiot. I know weight training, etc., is necessary to get the LOOK we're all going for. I'm just saying expensive, low-quality protein powders aren't necessary to achieve it, and in the end can actually cause health problems. If you all want to risk that, then be my guests. I will leave you all to your protein powders now. :drinker:

I can rock boat pose all day long. I do yoga weekly. Any other challenges?

I dont think she can read that you have done both insanity and p90x, two of the most awesome workouts out there. Just wanted to say you are awesome!!! P90x is on my christmas list this year!!! Mad props to you lady!!!

Topbobdog

Well i do have a degree in nutritional education actually its a dual bachelors in Sports Medicine and Athletic Training.
To answer whey protein is better it will help build muscle and reduce soreness if you dont want to spend the money on protein shakes chocolate milk (i blend in a banana and its amazing) is a good option for recovery. The only way protein shakes are harmful to you is drinking over your protein limit and avoiding normal foods. Good example someone who drinks a protein shake for both breakfast and lunch then has large protein amounts for dinner like a steak will be eating to much protein which can become harmful but you would have to do that combo for multiple weeks. Also avoid protein shakes that have the word "MASS" in their names they are extra calories that you dont need and are designed for weight gain and will hamper weight loss.

I don't care too much about this argument. But I wanted to know what you're take is on too much protein. I've read all sorts of different articles etc about what is and isn't too much. So, if you please, can you add one more for me

e.g.
I'm a 220 pound 6'2" reasonably athletic guy. On workouts days, I'll get to my bodyweight, and sometimes over in protein, but typically it's in that 150gm range (my standard 2000 cal MFP goal, modded to 40/30/30, sets me at 150). I do supplement on workout days (hitting body hard like weight/crossfit training, not just walking or riding a stationary bike for an extended period of time - I don't supplement post cardio days), but most of my protein (easily 80-90% on average) comes from diet (omnivore). I try to get the 40/30/30 splits and 90% of time I have that nailed, my calcium levels are perfectly fine. Rarely do I meal replace except for breakfast - like oats&whey with a banana when on the go or getting up real early for golf - and I'll oats/whey shake at the turn too, but that's on tournament days when walking, not "all rounds". I do post workout "shake" with both carbs and protein, but I also eat real food too. When my protein intake is real high, like 260+ grams (never over 300 - I start watching it when I reach 220) it also coincides with a really high calorie burn workout and I'm really buggered and burning. Even MFP says I should be eating over 200 on those days.
Is it when you start eating your bodyweight and more in protein without any workouts or good calcium intake ? Or other ?
When does it become a problem ? Obviously 5 times a month spreadout isn't going to do it, but if we're at X level for 3 weeks, then that could be interesting. What is X ?

If you see this (because it's almost impossible to follow the threads in here with the amount of topics and posts), I'd be interested in your thoughts. And no, this is not a setup for a flame war or anything.
Cheers

For the most part this site does a good job on protein counts and keeping track as long as your not constantly in the red and well over you should be fine if you want to calculate your protein you can use the site she listed
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/sports_health/nutrition/protein.aspx
its accurate but when you workout you will use protein. Also you really dont have to eat large amounts of protein to build muscle also note that men need more protein than women. You can tell your eating to much protein when you start having bad breath its an early sign of protein overload which can lead to kidney problems just make sure your eating carbs and a balanced meals.

http://women.webmd.com/guide/high-protein-low-carbohydrate-diets

Those are some of the negative side effects

This wasnt designed to be a flame war i just hate when people post misleading information and scare people.
No protein shakes arent needed but they are a good way to get protein into a low calorie diet or when people dont like eating a lot of meats or nuts or beans ( that should cover normal people and vegetarians). And yes to much protein is bad for your body but it really does take a lot of protein for a long period of time to be to much and their are lots of early warning signs you dont wake up one morning with bad kidneys because you ate to much protein yesterday, its prolonged exposure. if days you work out you eat high protein and on days you dont eat normal or low protein you will be fine. Rather that protein comes from powder or meats, nuts or beans!

rml_16

Edorice -- I am not "skinny fat." I accomplished your pushup challenge. I swim for hours a week (which IS strength training combined with cardio). I climb several flights of stairs daily without getting tired or winded or having muscle fatigue. And now I challenge you to do boat pose five times straight, holding for 30 seconds each time. Pushups are cake compared to that, but you'll find out what kind of ab strength I have if you try it. I'm not an idiot. I know weight training, etc., is necessary to get the LOOK we're all going for. I'm just saying expensive, low-quality protein powders aren't necessary to achieve it, and in the end can actually cause health problems. If you all want to risk that, then be my guests. I will leave you all to your protein powders now. :drinker:

I can rock boat pose all day long. I do yoga weekly. Any other challenges?

I dont think she can read that you have done both insanity and p90x, two of the most awesome workouts out there. Just wanted to say you are awesome!!! P90x is on my christmas list this year!!! Mad props to you lady!!!

She said that in this thread? If not, then I'm not sure where this comment comes from, but I didn't see it.

Anyway, congratulations on your degree. I think my sources speak for themselves, as does the progress I've made following my own advice.

And this woman came in here spouting off about MY fitness level and how healthy I am, based on absolutely no knowledge of me or any of those things. I apologize for defending myself.

And for what it's worth, I have known vegetarians for my entire life, all of whom are very healthy. The comment about "most vegetarians make themselves sick" was insulting and uninformed.

GiGi76

interesting, bumping for later... lunch time!!! ;-)

StephieWheats

Edorice -- I am not "skinny fat." I accomplished your pushup challenge. I swim for hours a week (which IS strength training combined with cardio). I climb several flights of stairs daily without getting tired or winded or having muscle fatigue. And now I challenge you to do boat pose five times straight, holding for 30 seconds each time. Pushups are cake compared to that, but you'll find out what kind of ab strength I have if you try it. I'm not an idiot. I know weight training, etc., is necessary to get the LOOK we're all going for. I'm just saying expensive, low-quality protein powders aren't necessary to achieve it, and in the end can actually cause health problems. If you all want to risk that, then be my guests. I will leave you all to your protein powders now. :drinker:

I can rock boat pose all day long. I do yoga weekly. Any other challenges?

I dont think she can read that you have done both insanity and p90x, two of the most awesome workouts out there. Just wanted to say you are awesome!!! P90x is on my christmas list this year!!! Mad props to you lady!!!

She said that in this thread? If not, then I'm not sure where this comment comes from, but I didn't see it.

Anyway, congratulations on your degree. I think my sources speak for themselves, as does the progress I've made following my own advice.

And this woman came in here spouting off about MY fitness level and how healthy I am, based on absolutely no knowledge of me or any of those things. I apologize for defending myself.

And for what it's worth, I have known vegetarians for my entire life, all of whom are very healthy. The comment about "most vegetarians make themselves sick" was insulting and uninformed.

Actually its in her signature, every time she post you can see it!!

rolandhulme

interesting, bumping for later... lunch time!!! ;-)

Good idea! For me, a Mediterranean Style Chicken Burger in a Thomas Bagel Thin with a slice of Cheddar. 37 grams of protein and NOM NOM NOM!

What did you have?

rml_16

Edorice -- I am not "skinny fat." I accomplished your pushup challenge. I swim for hours a week (which IS strength training combined with cardio). I climb several flights of stairs daily without getting tired or winded or having muscle fatigue. And now I challenge you to do boat pose five times straight, holding for 30 seconds each time. Pushups are cake compared to that, but you'll find out what kind of ab strength I have if you try it. I'm not an idiot. I know weight training, etc., is necessary to get the LOOK we're all going for. I'm just saying expensive, low-quality protein powders aren't necessary to achieve it, and in the end can actually cause health problems. If you all want to risk that, then be my guests. I will leave you all to your protein powders now. :drinker:

I can rock boat pose all day long. I do yoga weekly. Any other challenges?

I dont think she can read that you have done both insanity and p90x, two of the most awesome workouts out there. Just wanted to say you are awesome!!! P90x is on my christmas list this year!!! Mad props to you lady!!!

She said that in this thread? If not, then I'm not sure where this comment comes from, but I didn't see it.

Anyway, congratulations on your degree. I think my sources speak for themselves, as does the progress I've made following my own advice.

And this woman came in here spouting off about MY fitness level and how healthy I am, based on absolutely no knowledge of me or any of those things. I apologize for defending myself.

And for what it's worth, I have known vegetarians for my entire life, all of whom are very healthy. The comment about "most vegetarians make themselves sick" was insulting and uninformed.

Actually its in her signature, every time she post you can see it!!

I only read signatures if there's a pressing reason to do so. So, no, I didn't read it. Good for her. I've heard it's a tough workout. A friend of mine is doing it now. I'm in better shape than she is, though.

irridia

You don't need them. Period.

If you're sore, stretch and do some light cardio. If you look into it (and not just trainers with NO nutrition education), you'll find out how useless those shakes are -- and they can even cause some harm to your organs.

Well i do have a degree in nutritional education actually its a dual bachelors in Sports Medicine and Athletic Training.
To answer whey protein is better it will help build muscle and reduce soreness if you dont want to spend the money on protein shakes chocolate milk (i blend in a banana and its amazing) is a good option for recovery. The only way protein shakes are harmful to you is drinking over your protein limit and avoiding normal foods. Good example someone who drinks a protein shake for both breakfast and lunch then has large protein amounts for dinner like a steak will be eating to much protein which can become harmful but you would have to do that combo for multiple weeks. Also avoid protein shakes that have the word "MASS" in their names they are extra calories that you dont need and are designed for weight gain and will hamper weight loss.

that totally makes sense to me, I'm actually not ready for them yet because I'm only a little sore and not really breaking down and building back up muscle. Also Shane t99 that helps me sort out the differences. Since I mostly lift at night before bed (stupid schedule restrictions *sigh*) I will probably go w/Toast w/peanut butter once I work hard enough to need it and then whatever I can afford once I work hard during the day. I like the idea of whey + casein bc I'm diabetic so quick absorbtion to battle post workout crash and slow to prevent crashing later.

I also have gout, so some sorness is indisingusahble from lactic acid buildup. I usually warm up w/gentle cardio, stretch, lift, strech again between sets and then strech after. Since I have gout I've been considering adding chondroitin and glucosamine to my supplements to help with joint soreness. I've also been given to understand that women )especially those of a certain age ) require magnesium which actually absorbs through the skin in an epsom salts soak, which of course relieves soreness, so I will likely add that as well. Thank you everyone for your considered advice.

clipsychic

bump

rolandhulme

I only read signatures if there's a pressing reason to do so.

ALWAYS READ THE SMALL PRINT!

;-)

Teresa652

I come here for motivation but whatever you 2 are up to is bulls*&t. I think everyone is entitled to their opinions but also need to know when enough is enough. Now its just getting annoying. How can an honest question lead into such childish crap?

irridia

moobs

If I have the time i don't shake it up but have a sweet potato and chicken. mmmmm

and for the soreness -its lactic acid buildup and tightness. stretch stretch and warm up those muscles, and don't stop working out

lolrotflmao!! you are the only one I've seen use the term "moobs" besides myself! everyone else I know calls them "man-boobs" !

l love sweet potatoes and chicken complement. Stretch already and know about lactic acid (too well actually) I figured the whole reason someone else used almond milk was for the natural salislic acid found in almonds. And thanks for the info
carl also. Unfortunately because of the lisiprinol I take straight up from the bottle nsaids are off limits for me unless its completely unbearable pain.

tater8589

Whey is milk based, Soy well soy. Either is good, if you have issues with milk you may want soy. I personally love BSN vanilla, its so smooth, doesn't have the protien after taste and mixes well. I like to mix it with fruit in the blender. Oh, also for guys, soy products can have higher amounts of estrogen in them which can cause MASSIVE temper issues in guys. I got this info from Mens Health and have seen proof of it with my ex and his bestfriend.

irridia

Nobody attacked you. My point is that some of us are concerned about strength training. Some of us do not want to have saggy arms, which many women have. They think that if they just keep dieting down they will get lean and strong. They ignore their muscles and then wonder why they have to go to the chiropractor, have hunched over shoulders, and can't lift a can of soup.

Since I turned 50 on Wedensday, am figting uric acid (which actually prevents muscle from being able to uptake glucose [yay :frown:] ) I am very concerned about building muscle mass while loosing the fat, also gaining actual strength, so I thankyou for your advice. I also understand the desire to get it from non-animal sources and have considered doing so as well, but i'm not ready to make that change yet. I really hadn't expected this kind of response (i.e. numbers of responses).

I also am not singeling anybody out in the following statement: Please just keep the discussion on a respectful level. I belive dialog, even regarding this subject is essential in making a desicion on what is best for me in my situation.

As an example I thought I was doing a good thing by subbing beans for meat on occasion, but the sugar/carb ratio to protien is actually prohibitive in my situation (according to my Dr who is pushing for more veggies in our diet and less meat overall. ... and I just don't like tofu that much.

GiGi76

interesting, bumping for later... lunch time!!! ;-)

Good idea! For me, a Mediterranean Style Chicken Burger in a Thomas Bagel Thin with a slice of Cheddar. 37 grams of protein and NOM NOM NOM!

What did you have?

Well, i was visiting with my mother and she was about to fry a piece of chicken for me but i caught her just in time and washed the flour off it and baked it in the oven with a little cavender's greek seasoning and garlic salt.... with it i had a salad and mashed potatoes. I wouldve had something more lite had i not been visiting with her.... but its ok i watched my proportions.... im trying a semi-vegetarian diet right now... but i cant give up the Cheese (im greek HELLO.... LOL) but im trying to avoid red meats at least!!!! Your lunch sounds like it was a lot better than mine!!! ;-)

GiGi76

Edorice -- I am not "skinny fat." I accomplished your pushup challenge. I swim for hours a week (which IS strength training combined with cardio). I climb several flights of stairs daily without getting tired or winded or having muscle fatigue. And now I challenge you to do boat pose five times straight, holding for 30 seconds each time. Pushups are cake compared to that, but you'll find out what kind of ab strength I have if you try it. I'm not an idiot. I know weight training, etc., is necessary to get the LOOK we're all going for. I'm just saying expensive, low-quality protein powders aren't necessary to achieve it, and in the end can actually cause health problems. If you all want to risk that, then be my guests. I will leave you all to your protein powders now. :drinker:

I can rock boat pose all day long. I do yoga weekly. Any other challenges?

I dont think she can read that you have done both insanity and p90x, two of the most awesome workouts out there. Just wanted to say you are awesome!!! P90x is on my christmas list this year!!! Mad props to you lady!!!

She said that in this thread? If not, then I'm not sure where this comment comes from, but I didn't see it.

Anyway, congratulations on your degree. I think my sources speak for themselves, as does the progress I've made following my own advice.

And this woman came in here spouting off about MY fitness level and how healthy I am, based on absolutely no knowledge of me or any of those things. I apologize for defending myself.

And for what it's worth, I have known vegetarians for my entire life, all of whom are very healthy. The comment about "most vegetarians make themselves sick" was insulting and uninformed.

Actually its in her signature, every time she post you can see it!!

I only read signatures if there's a pressing reason to do so. So, no, I didn't read it. Good for her. I've heard it's a tough workout. A friend of mine is doing it now. I'm in better shape than she is, though.

I doubt that you are in better shape than Edorice.... she works out like crazy everyday and looking at your diary you do it here and there.... im just saying this because you are making it sound like you are in better shape than any of us who have done the X and youve never even done it so you wouldnt know and shouldnt imply that!!! I say to each their own but dont make out like you are in better shape than everyone else and we are inferior to you only because we do not share the same ideas and thoughts!!! We are all doing what we feel is best for our bodies and trying to get in the best shape we can.... We should be encouraging each other not fighting about silly stuff!!!
Like The GREAT Bob Marley said “If you get down and quarrel everyday, you're saying prayers to the devil, I say”
So lets all move past this and agree to disagree!!! Have a Wonderful weekend everyone!!!