Barbell squats
Replies
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i suppose both would probably be best, unless the goal is maximum quad strength, then just go with back as you can lift heavier.
I wouldnt' think it really takes stress off you back. I mean, you wont have to deal with the pressure of the bar (but you can get a pad for that), but your still going to use the same back muscles to support your upper body through the exercise.
I would think if anything that its slightly more stressful on parts of your back being that its a somewhat more awkward position to hold the bar.0 -
Well this will probably start a *kitten* storm...but whatever, just my opinion from my experience. For those with flexibility issues and/or long limbs where regular barbell squats are just a complete disaster, Smith squats can be very effective - IF you move your feet forward. (Please for the love of protein and iron, notice the "IF you move your feet forward part" before you start grinding your teeth and frothing at the mouth)
Keeping your feet well in front of the bar allows you to maintain an upright posture throughout the ROM, and the lack of horizontal bar movement isn't an issue. It's also great if you want to isolate the quads and take the glutes and hams out of the equation because you can stop at or just above parallel, you get constant tension on the quads with little assistance from the posterior chain. Of course you can do that with a barbell too, but its easier to be consistent on the Smith. It's also much easier on the Smith with feet forward to vary foot placement to target specific parts of the quad, a narrow inside shoulder stance really hits the outer quads well.
If you can squat comfortably, completely disregard all of the above. But if you're like many that can't, maybe give it an honest try. Nothing to lose and you might find a way to train your legs effectively without some of the grief.
seems like good advice to me, especially for those of us morooned on planet fitness0 -
Well this will probably start a *kitten* storm...but whatever, just my opinion from my experience. For those with flexibility issues and/or long limbs where regular barbell squats are just a complete disaster, Smith squats can be very effective - IF you move your feet forward. (Please for the love of protein and iron, notice the "IF you move your feet forward part" before you start grinding your teeth and frothing at the mouth)
Keeping your feet well in front of the bar allows you to maintain an upright posture throughout the ROM, and the lack of horizontal bar movement isn't an issue. It's also great if you want to isolate the quads and take the glutes and hams out of the equation because you can stop at or just above parallel, you get constant tension on the quads with little assistance from the posterior chain. Of course you can do that with a barbell too, but its easier to be consistent on the Smith. It's also much easier on the Smith with feet forward to vary foot placement to target specific parts of the quad, a narrow inside shoulder stance really hits the outer quads well.
If you can squat comfortably, completely disregard all of the above. But if you're like many that can't, maybe give it an honest try. Nothing to lose and you might find a way to train your legs effectively without some of the grief.
Isn't that more of a hack squat using the smith machine, vs. a fill in for back squats? Hack squats are good accessory, or body building lift, but not a power lifting move, and other than strengthening your quads, will not help your squat that much, unless the weak point in the chain of movement comes from quads.0 -
Well this will probably start a *kitten* storm...but whatever, just my opinion from my experience. For those with flexibility issues and/or long limbs where regular barbell squats are just a complete disaster, Smith squats can be very effective - IF you move your feet forward. (Please for the love of protein and iron, notice the "IF you move your feet forward part" before you start grinding your teeth and frothing at the mouth)
Keeping your feet well in front of the bar allows you to maintain an upright posture throughout the ROM, and the lack of horizontal bar movement isn't an issue. It's also great if you want to isolate the quads and take the glutes and hams out of the equation because you can stop at or just above parallel, you get constant tension on the quads with little assistance from the posterior chain. Of course you can do that with a barbell too, but its easier to be consistent on the Smith. It's also much easier on the Smith with feet forward to vary foot placement to target specific parts of the quad, a narrow inside shoulder stance really hits the outer quads well.
If you can squat comfortably, completely disregard all of the above. But if you're like many that can't, maybe give it an honest try. Nothing to lose and you might find a way to train your legs effectively without some of the grief.
Isn't that more of a hack squat using the smith machine, vs. a fill in for back squats? Hack squats are good accessory, or body building lift, but not a power lifting move, and other than strengthening your quads, will not help your squat that much, unless the weak point in the chain of movement comes from quads.
You're right, similar to a hack squat...but different too. I can't really describe it, but for me at least I can move a lot more weight with this than with the hack. All I can say is try it if your interested, see how it feels. And of course not anything remotely applying to powerlifting, but I thought I made that clear in my post. This is for people looking to prioritize certain areas of the quads, or for those that can't back squat. Like I said, if you can squat comfortably disregard entirely.
Seriously, what is this boards fixation with powerlifting and strength training? I see a few genuine powerlifters on here, hats of to them. But for the average person training with more of a body building style will yield better results. You still get strength gains, but you also get muscle definition and rev up your metabolism and burn more fat.0 -
bump!0
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I have friends that can squat on the smith machine no problem, but personally I find that I cannot place my feet in such a way that I don't feel increased pressure on my knees, even with a trivial amount of weight on the bar.Seriously, what is this boards fixation with powerlifting and strength training? I see a few genuine powerlifters on here, hats of to them. But for the average person training with more of a body building style will yield better results. You still get strength gains, but you also get muscle definition and rev up your metabolism and burn more fat.
Couldn't tell you but powerlifting movements recommendations are definitely commonplace around here. I wonder if a lot of people simply learned from SS and SL5x5 and now they're passing those recommendations on to others - or perhaps they recommend SS and SL5x5 so often because of the pro-powerlifting culture (sort of a chicken and egg problem, heh).0 -
Seriously, what is this boards fixation with powerlifting and strength training? I see a few genuine powerlifters on here, hats of to them. But for the average person training with more of a body building style will yield better results. You still get strength gains, but you also get muscle definition and rev up your metabolism and burn more fat.
amen... or, heres a though, mix it up and train both ways lol0 -
Seriously, what is this boards fixation with powerlifting and strength training? I see a few genuine powerlifters on here, hats of to them. But for the average person training with more of a body building style will yield better results. You still get strength gains, but you also get muscle definition and rev up your metabolism and burn more fat.
I would say for the following reasons
1.) most people don't WANT to look like body builders- not really.
2.) body building splits take too much time- most people want the most back for their buck and just get in and get out
3.) body building split are more complicated to learn because there is more stuff involved
4.) power lifting movements have direct correlation in real life- bad back? why because people have no effing clue how to pick stuff up.
As for smith machine vs hack squat
hack is more under neath you- traditionally it was a BB move- not a machine- and it's more "BACK"
just a different feel. The only way I was every comfortable on the smith was feet forward- gives it a flat back squat. I wouldn't ever recommend it though- most people need to learn how to balance themselves- balance can be imporved but people dont' want to.
Love the people that say they can't squat b/c of their knees- so they use the smith- but then go jump on the leg press at 5-800 lbs. Just don't get it.0 -
You wont be able to push as much weight with front squats therefore wont see the same kind of benefits as back squats. Though they do make a great accessory lift.
pretty much this. front squats are great, but the real strong lift is back squats. and just because it's harder doesn't mean that it's all you should be doing.0 -
Totally works different muscles, do both.
Front squats really work your core where back squats are more butt focused.
Build up gradually and the heavier weight won't bother you.0 -
i do both.... front squats hit quads much harder than back squats. i love to hate them, lol
I agree with this. When I started FS's I thought I would never do them again. I just busted out a PR of 170 last week.
There was another post about the T-nation suggestion, and you can check tonygentilcore.com (probably the same article) for videos about the FS. They can be fun! (I keep telling myself that)0 -
Both.
At one point last summer, my 1RM front squat was heavier than my 1RM back squat.0 -
Seriously, what is this boards fixation with powerlifting and strength training? I see a few genuine powerlifters on here, hats of to them. But for the average person training with more of a body building style will yield better results. You still get strength gains, but you also get muscle definition and rev up your metabolism and burn more fat.
I would say for the following reasons
1.) most people don't WANT to look like body builders- not really.
2.) body building splits take too much time- most people want the most back for their buck and just get in and get out
3.) body building split are more complicated to learn because there is more stuff involved
4.) power lifting movements have direct correlation in real life- bad back? why because people have no effing clue how to pick stuff up.
I agree, and in a caloric deficit, you will gain more strength doing power lifting routine vs. body building, and since muscle gains are very limited in a deficit regardless what time of program you run, might as well make the strength gains, then during a bulk maybe switch it up to bodybuilding or combined routine to get the best of both worlds.0 -
Seriously, what is this boards fixation with powerlifting and strength training? I see a few genuine powerlifters on here, hats of to them. But for the average person training with more of a body building style will yield better results. You still get strength gains, but you also get muscle definition and rev up your metabolism and burn more fat.
I would say for the following reasons
1.) most people don't WANT to look like body builders- not really.
2.) body building splits take too much time- most people want the most back for their buck and just get in and get out
3.) body building split are more complicated to learn because there is more stuff involved
4.) power lifting movements have direct correlation in real life- bad back? why because people have no effing clue how to pick stuff up.
I agree, and in a caloric deficit, you will gain more strength doing power lifting routine vs. body building, and since muscle gains are very limited in a deficit regardless what time of program you run, might as well make the strength gains, then during a bulk maybe switch it up to bodybuilding or combined routine to get the best of both worlds.
thats not a bad idea, never really thought of that.
I'd say that i'd like to do some more reps and extra sets for additional calorie burn, but it maybe fairly minimal and probably better accomplished through diet anyway.
that leads me to another question: how many sets do the 'powerlifter' types do per body part per workout?
lol, i guess that question betrays my counter philosophy.
How many sets do you typically do per exercise and over all in your workout?0 -
Seriously, what is this boards fixation with powerlifting and strength training? I see a few genuine powerlifters on here, hats of to them. But for the average person training with more of a body building style will yield better results. You still get strength gains, but you also get muscle definition and rev up your metabolism and burn more fat.
I would say for the following reasons
1.) most people don't WANT to look like body builders- not really.
2.) body building splits take too much time- most people want the most back for their buck and just get in and get out
3.) body building split are more complicated to learn because there is more stuff involved
4.) power lifting movements have direct correlation in real life- bad back? why because people have no effing clue how to pick stuff up.
I agree, and in a caloric deficit, you will gain more strength doing power lifting routine vs. body building, and since muscle gains are very limited in a deficit regardless what time of program you run, might as well make the strength gains, then during a bulk maybe switch it up to bodybuilding or combined routine to get the best of both worlds.
yup.
I think for people who have maxed out their newb gains and are committed to weights- then it's time to start adding accessories and detailing- but I mean I have pretty big guns for a chick (not flexed they are 13") and I never curl- actually I don't right now do any bicep isolation's- where as 2 months ago- I was doing some chin ups occasionally- I would curl and do tricep isolation's once or twice a month- maybe. LOL)
Most people grossly underestimate the importance of building a strong base- and getting their diet tailored down to get good results.0 -
Seriously, what is this boards fixation with powerlifting and strength training? I see a few genuine powerlifters on here, hats of to them. But for the average person training with more of a body building style will yield better results. You still get strength gains, but you also get muscle definition and rev up your metabolism and burn more fat.
I would say for the following reasons
1.) most people don't WANT to look like body builders- not really.
2.) body building splits take too much time- most people want the most back for their buck and just get in and get out
3.) body building split are more complicated to learn because there is more stuff involved
4.) power lifting movements have direct correlation in real life- bad back? why because people have no effing clue how to pick stuff up.
As for smith machine vs hack squat
hack is more under neath you- traditionally it was a BB move- not a machine- and it's more "BACK"
just a different feel. The only way I was every comfortable on the smith was feet forward- gives it a flat back squat. I wouldn't ever recommend it though- most people need to learn how to balance themselves- balance can be imporved but people dont' want to.
Love the people that say they can't squat b/c of their knees- so they use the smith- but then go jump on the leg press at 5-800 lbs. Just don't get it.
Most people don't want to look like body builders? Seriously, so they don't want to be lean with good muscle definition. I'm not talking 300lb enhanced blocks of muscle, Google Dave Goodin.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=dave+goodin&hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4IRFD_enCA424CA448&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=tMo1U8-cHqHi2AXh8oFw&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1536&bih=686
All natural body builder that's 54 years old. That's what body building programs can produce.
Now Google powerlifter.
http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=https://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/why_bodybuilders_are_more_jacked_than_powerlifters&h=0&w=0&tbnid=IqRlyRYxqeH5vM&zoom=1&tbnh=140&tbnw=360&docid=xXK7iTsdXYoZbM&hl=en&tbm=isch&ei=Oss1U9C8IsSW2AXU4IC4Cg&ved=0CBEQsCUoBQ
If that's the physique you're looking for, have at er.
Bodybuilding style training doesn't have to be endless hours in the gym for the average person looking to improve their strength and physique. Simply moving some of your training to a higher rep range and shortening your rest times will yield benefits, particularly if your looking to lose fat.
And I never said anything about knees. If your knees are truly bad (and not an excuse to skip squats) the feet forward Smith squats aren't going to be any easier on them.0 -
well put. perhaps there are a lot that would not want to look like a bodybuilder, but if given to choice between power lifter and bodybuilder, I'd assume most would choose bodybuilder.
especially if they are NOT in near 5% BF contest form.
On the other hand, both extreams are places that most of the population will never get to anyway0 -
thats not a bad idea, never really thought of that.
I'd say that i'd like to do some more reps and extra sets for additional calorie burn, but it maybe fairly minimal and probably better accomplished through diet anyway.
that leads me to another question: how many sets do the 'powerlifter' types do per body part per workout?
lol, i guess that question betrays my counter philosophy.
How many sets do you typically do per exercise and over all in your workout?
I usually put in about 12 sets on my compound lifts with no more than 3 reps per set.
Accessory lifts are around 3-4 sets and depending on the lift can be 3 reps to 12 reps.0 -
I do low-bar back squats. They make me happy. I've never tried front squats.0
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no they don't. You specifically said BODY builder- You said bodybuilder- and NO- most people don't want to look like that.
first words out of a woman's mouth "I don't want to be bulky" men often say the same thing. They want to be lean- lower body fat and look ripped without looking huge. A good combination of power lifting and diet will get you 3/4 of the way there. If you wanted to pull a specific word for that- physique or fitness for either men or women would be the more appropriate word. But you didn't- you said bodybuilder.
I'm not saying there is ANY thing wrong with a full split- but for most people it's not efficient- they can get solid strength gains and control their diet- they can get most of what they want with compound lifting- it's like shopping at Wal-Mart or BJ's/Costco- you can do most of what you need there rather than running around to different stores. It's not the workout that gets you that look- it's the diet- so if you can do a full compound lifting program- get stronger and not spend hours a week doing a split that's a big win for your average lifter- plus the application to real life health is dare I say significantly better.
that was more a generic comment about knees squats and people saying that's why they skip squats but use smith. Was more an LOL musing not something directly addressing.And I never said anything about knees. If your knees are truly bad (and not an excuse to skip squats) the feet forward Smith squats aren't going to be any easier on them.0 -
I'm not saying there is ANY thing wrong with a full split- but for most people it's not efficient- they can get solid strength gains and control their diet- they can get most of what they want with compound lifting- it's like shopping at Wal-Mart or BJ's/Costco- you can do most of what you need there rather than running around to different stores. It's not the workout that gets you that look- it's the diet- so if you can do a full compound lifting program- get stronger and not spend hours a week doing a split that's a big win for your average lifter- plus the application to real life health is dare I say significantly better.
I do agree with this. For the average joe/jane with family and other commitments, being able to hit multiple muscles with compound lifts and adding in a few accessories is much more time efficient.0 -
To be fair, actually he said:But for the average person training with more of a body building style will yield better results.
That's not saying the average person wants to be and look like a professional body builder. He's saying he thinks training with a body building style program will yield better results for the average person than a powerlifting program. Just like following the SS routine won't suddenly turn you into a top IPF competitor, following a body building style workout won't turn you into a 5% bodyfat, overly tanned body building competitor.
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agree that diet is king when it comes to looking a certain way0
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no they don't. You specifically said BODY builder- You said bodybuilder- and NO- most people don't want to look like that.
first words out of a woman's mouth "I don't want to be bulky" men often say the same thing. They want to be lean- lower body fat and look ripped without looking huge. A good combination of power lifting and diet will get you 3/4 of the way there. If you wanted to pull a specific word for that- physique or fitness for either men or women would be the more appropriate word. But you didn't- you said bodybuilder.
I'm not saying there is ANY thing wrong with a full split- but for most people it's not efficient- they can get solid strength gains and control their diet- they can get most of what they want with compound lifting- it's like shopping at Wal-Mart or BJ's/Costco- you can do most of what you need there rather than running around to different stores. It's not the workout that gets you that look- it's the diet- so if you can do a full compound lifting program- get stronger and not spend hours a week doing a split that's a big win for your average lifter- plus the application to real life health is dare I say significantly better.
that was more a generic comment about knees squats and people saying that's why they skip squats but use smith. Was more an LOL musing not something directly addressing.And I never said anything about knees. If your knees are truly bad (and not an excuse to skip squats) the feet forward Smith squats aren't going to be any easier on them.
Actually, read back what was said. I recommended the benefits of a body building style of workout. You were the one to first mention BODY builder specifically, when you said people don't want to look like BODY builders. I simply followed your lead in my response. Also notice my reference was to natural body builders, they look similar to a physique competitor but with a little more mass. I agree most don't want to look like a competitive enhanced builder.
And why do you equate a body building style of lifting to the elimination of compound lifts? When did I ever say that? The compounds are still the core of BB style training. I'm merely suggesting that most average people would be best served by mixing up their rep ranges. There are a lot of benefits outside of 5 rep sets. Keep in some low rep sets for strength, but 8-12 reps and even higher are just as important. You want to save time, increase your rep range and reduce your rest. By increasing your workout density you'll increase fat loss, shorten gym time, and save a lot of wear and tear on your connective tissues.0 -
Because- body building programs are for people who want to be body builders- it's for detailing.
I agree rep range is a different thing.
I also personally don't know ANY body builders (and I know several) who do real compound lifting on a regular bases.To be fair, actually he said:But for the average person training with more of a body building style will yield better results.
That's not saying the average person wants to be and look like a professional body builder. He's saying he thinks training with a body building style program will yield better results for the average person than a powerlifting program. Just like following the SS routine won't suddenly turn you into a top IPF competitor, following a body building style workout won't turn you into a 5% bodyfat, overly tanned body building competitor.
fair enough.
I suppose the real reality is the "average" lifter just wanting to look good naked and not be fat- the program that's really going to work the best for them is one they can stick to long term and getting their diet under control.
It can be done either way- with a bro split- or a yut-ugh PL program: but time efficiency- and thoroughness with plenty of programming available- most bang for the buck- is compound lifting.
I'd also like to point out- there is a great deal of moral boosting that comes from heavy compound lifting- it's a sense of accomplishment that can be had that I don't see so much from body building for your average lifter. Look at the hundreds of women on here that get to thump their chests when they hit new PR's. IYes getting a great pump is good- but there seems to be much more tangible connection with DOING the thing.
I actually know several people who have moved from competition BB to competition PL because they were just very unsatisfied with their results and how they felt. The over all satisfaction of powerlifting was a bigger draw.
neither is right or wrong- but it's easier to direct people to hard programs that are already written to give people a very practical strength base- once they get their feet under them- moving toward accessories- or even full detailing is much easier.0 -
i'll start out an exercise with a weight that i can do 10-12 (or more) and then tapper down to 3-6 ish by my third or fourth set.
thought this was typical in the 'bodybuilding' style of training.0 -
I'll admit that i feel as though i could make a lot more progress if i could siginificantly raise the amount of weight i can lift in the 8-10 range and that would require some more dedicated lower rep work.
i just can't understand the death grip on any one particular type of training.
If nothing else, doing the same stuff over and over again WILL lead to joint issues.0 -
I do front squats and back squats...
yes, front squats are more awkward ... I can back squat more than I can front squat...but both have there benefits...0 -
i'll start out an exercise with a weight that i can do 10-12 (or more) and then tapper down to 3-6 ish by my third or fourth set.
thought this was typical in the 'bodybuilding' style of training.
I would say- in my humble opinion/experience/observations:
reps are determined by your goals-
the actual work out break down is typically BB or PL oriented- even powerlifters go through periodziation for hypertrophy (different rep range) and strength. (again different rep range).0 -
I do both Front and Back Squats (low bar).
As far as powerlifting vs bodybuilding, I am far from being either but I train in both ways-best of both worlds. I do all the compounds as well as a lot of isolation work. For ME personally, I believe that if I want to get a muscle to "pop" (for lack of a better word) I isolate it. For strength I do the compound lifts.0
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