Lost 80 lbs and never counted calories!

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Replies

  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,139 Member
    I have no doubt it can work. Not everyone counts calories and manages to lose weight. Essentially, you've cut your calories by not eating so much (although this statement is obvious).

    The issues for me
    -you could undereat and then end up scratching your head as to why things aren't going as planned (or you end up suffering malnutrition)
    -you could eat too little protein resulting in LBM loss
    -you could still be eating too much thinking that "healthy food = weight loss"

    That said, I am semi-transferring over to not counting but ensuring I eat a lot of meat/dairy as I have a vague feel for how much meat equates to my 150g of protein a day whilst hovering around the 2500 kcal mark.

    For me that equates to:
    -2 main meals containing a small portion of carbs (1 palmful), a reasonable portion of veg (1-2 palmfuls) and two servings of meat eg 2-3 drumsticks or 2-3 palmfuls.
    -50g of oats with honey in the morning
    -couple of slices of cheddar cheese
    -an extra palmful of meat
    -100g of natural yoghurt.

    I have found this to equate to about 140g of protein and about 2000kcals so throw in a bar of chocolate and a packet of crisps. :-D

    But it's only through using MFP that I've got a feel for what's what.

    You bring up some valid points. I believe that counting calories can work for some things, but to base it on everything you eat is stressful and unrealistic. Eating less (even when eating healthy) is something I've found to work while not counting calories. Eating right so you can stay full is what really counts. Thinking about your next meal shortly after eating your current meal is a set up for failure. I retrained my brain to think of food as a way to bring nutrients to my body for normal functioning, rather than to indulge for past time and taste purposes. With that mentality, I was able to break my lowest recorded weight in my adulthood of 268 lbs in Nov. 2011 to 246 lbs this year. Took me 2.5 years to get back on track and break that barrier. The key to maintaining a healthy eating lifestyle is to experiment, and that may include gain (unfortunately). But sometimes it takes a gain to lose. Oh the irony....

    yet, so many of us have had success consistently logging our calories….not sure how we are setting ourselves up for failure…

    oh, and I am not stressed out or unrealistic in my goals…

    but thanks for playing..
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,139 Member
    Just to give an advantage of calorie counting versus non-counting


    calorie counting: hmm, I feel like eating some ice cream this evening... let's check my food diary... hmm, 200 cals under goal. *looks at ice cream tub* *works out how many grams of ice cream = 200 cals* *measures and eats ice cream* *logs ice cream in diary, meets calorie goal* *continues to lose weight at the desired rate*

    non-calorie counting: hmm, I feel like eating some ice cream this evening... but I've eaten quite a lot of food today, and I don't feel that hungry, it's probably not a good idea to eat any ice cream right now. *ice cream stays in the freezer* *weight loss still happens but it's harder to sustain long term due to feeling deprived of ice cream and other yummy things*

    this is why calorie counting > not calorie counting

    Added to that: "Oh screw it, I'll eat it anyway." *eats* *guilt* *guilt* *guilt* *angry at self* *cry* *eat more* *angry* *cry* (for many people)

    don't forget the obligatory post "binge thread" to MFP as well...
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,139 Member
    I think it's funny how some of us calorie counters seem threatened when someone is doing something different ! All of these " this is a calorie counting site". This site is so much more than a calorie in/ out log. There is tons of information about exercise. Many motivational threads. Success stories. Challenges. You can find groups that cover every exercise and eating choice. If the only purpose of MFP was to count calories it would not be as popular or as useful. So in an area about motivation and support - let's be supportive! Congratulations on your weight loss.

    why does support on MFP always equate to blind devotion to what the OP is posting?
  • Francl27
    Francl27 Posts: 26,372 Member
    Eh I don't feel threatened. A lot of people lose weight without counting calories (I mean, MFP and other apps are not that old).

    I also know I lost weight before MFP... and gained more back. News flash people - we're all different! I'm sure the healthiest way to lose weight is to eat meat, fruit and veggies, with maybe oatmeal for breakfast and some rice, potatoes or pasta once in a while. I probably wouldn't have to count calories if I filled up on those. But *I* can't. I love 'fattening' food. I know by experience that any diet (in the 'food you eat' meaning of the term) that restricts me too much will fail because I won't be able to sustain it long term.

    The reason counting calories has worked for me is that I can still have treats, without guilt. I would never be able to do that if I wasn't counting calories... I'd either restrict myself too much and binge or give up like in the past, or eat too much of my treats ('one won't hurt') and gain weight - oh wait I've done that too. But everyone doesn't have my unhealthy relationship with food. At least with calorie counting I can keep it in check. Some people don't need that... good for them... although if their relationship with food is so healthy, I still wonder how they got overweight in the first place.

    That being said, I'd love to hear from people who have reached their healthy goal weight and maintained it for 2+ years without counting calories. I know there are some out there.. but I'm quite sure there's a reason so many people gain the weight back.
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    Just to give an advantage of calorie counting versus non-counting


    calorie counting: hmm, I feel like eating some ice cream this evening... let's check my food diary... hmm, 200 cals under goal. *looks at ice cream tub* *works out how many grams of ice cream = 200 cals* *measures and eats ice cream* *logs ice cream in diary, meets calorie goal* *continues to lose weight at the desired rate*

    non-calorie counting: hmm, I feel like eating some ice cream this evening... but I've eaten quite a lot of food today, and I don't feel that hungry, it's probably not a good idea to eat any ice cream right now. *ice cream stays in the freezer* *weight loss still happens but it's harder to sustain long term due to feeling deprived of ice cream and other yummy things*

    this is why calorie counting > not calorie counting

    Hmmmm... I read the "I'm not hungry so I won't eat the ice cream" as sort of exactly what we are supposed to be learning: to eat according to hunger, and to save 200 calories for another day when you really are hungry.

    But how do you know you have 200 calories to save for another day if you don't count your calories?

    Also, 200 calories of ice cream when you have 200 calories to spare isn't something bad that should be avoided. Eating 400 calories of ice cream in that situation is though (because you only have 200 cals to spare not 400), and in terms of maintaining both sanity and long term success, depriving yourself of ice cream or any other food you really want to eat is counterproductive. - calorie counting enables you to know just how much of something you can have without harming your progress.

    I know how to eat according to hunger, but my hunger signals are set to maintain my weight, as they should be, because in evolutionary terms, hunger signals that lead to you steadily losing weight over time is actually a death sentence. The human body isn't supposed to work like that. Hunger signals are calibrated for weight maintenance.

    To lose weight without calorie counting requires ignoring some of your hunger signals, but then there's a danger in eating too little, which is important for me to not do, as my fitness goals include having 300lb deadlift and undereating leads to loss of lean mass which leads to loss of strength.

    A lot of people can trick their body's hunger system by eating a high protein, high fibre, low carb, low calorie density diet, which is how people can lose weight eating paleo and similar, but that's way too restrictive for me when I can just count calories and eat all the the foods I wouldn't be allowed on paleo or similar. And some people will not lose even on that diet, because they will still managed to eat at maintenance in those circumstances.

    Anyway, nothing wrong with non-counting methods of achieving a deficit if it works for you and you can sustain it in the long term without feeling deprived. Just I know that counting calories and including all the foods I want to eat in my diet definitely works better for me.
  • Siannah
    Siannah Posts: 456 Member
    I'm not counting calories anymore, I am quite capable of judging what is a good portion size, what is healthy, what is not.

    In theory.

    In practice, if I want to lose weight again (I'm maintaining but every now and then I need to kick myself back when the weight starts creeping up), the only way to do this is by old fashioned calorie counting. Just to remind myself.
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    I think it's funny how some of us calorie counters seem threatened when someone is doing something different ! All of these " this is a calorie counting site". This site is so much more than a calorie in/ out log. There is tons of information about exercise. Many motivational threads. Success stories. Challenges. You can find groups that cover every exercise and eating choice. If the only purpose of MFP was to count calories it would not be as popular or as useful. So in an area about motivation and support - let's be supportive! Congratulations on your weight loss.

    I think it's funny how some people equate disagreeing and presenting an alternative viewpoint as seeming threatened. It's a public forum, forum is a place to discuss and exchange ideas. I'm glad non-counting methods work for some people, and if it's working for you and you're not feeling deprived or feeling like you can't enjoy certain foods any more because of uncertainty about whether you're eating too much or not, then go for it. But I think that it's important for people to discuss alternative points of view and alternative experiences, because this kind of thing does not work for everyone.

    I also notice that some of the success stories with losing weight without counting come from people with a lot of fat to lose, in that case it is easier to lose weight and there's less danger of losing lean mass. But for the last 10 or 15lbs it may be a totally different story. Someone may need to change their tactics when they get to that point. Ditto anyone who's already at a healthy body fat percentage and doing cutting/bulking cycles to lower bf% or increase strength or get 6 pack abs. So really I think this is an important discussion that everyone can benefit from, and disagreeing does not mean feeling threatened or not liking it that someone is doing something a different way.

    And finally I think it's important to point out that with the MFP phone app you can log your food very very easily and calorie counting is not the heinous chore it once was, as in writing everything down on paper and adding it all up yourself... I mean that sucks. But the app does all that for you, even weighing your food a kitchen scale with a tier function, you just load up your plate as usual, except that it's on your scale and you tier it and put it in your phone app for each thing you put on the plate (or the same with the pot you're cooking a meal in) - it adds about 1 minute to food preparation time, if that.
  • kgeyser
    kgeyser Posts: 22,505 Member
    I'm honestly not sure if you simply don't understand what people are saying to you, or are just being deliberately obtuse because they're not saying what you want to hear. There have been several good points that people have made that you seem to be ignoring:

    1. You are young. Yes, you've acknowledged that it is an advantage, but you don't seem to grasp the enormity of what that means. It's not just metabolism slowing down with age. Aging also means joint issues, mobility issues, range of motion issues, and a host of other issues which can affect a person's ability to exercise and lose weight. I'm 35, and the difference between what I was physically able to do at 29 and now after having two children is startling. And I've never been overweight in my life, I'm here to lose weight put on during a difficult pregnancy that also resulted in joint damage.

    2. You had a lot of weight to lose. Several people have pointed this out. It's the science of weight loss. The less you have to lose, the less wiggle room you have in your calories. So while eating a certain way and eyeballing things may work for you, it's not going to be that way for people with less to lose. A few extra calories here and there can make a really big difference.

    3. You're making a lot of assumptions. You may have gained weight from being lazy and stuffing your face with fried food, but that is not the case for everyone here. So while it is great that getting exercise and making better food choices was the key to your weight loss, it's not going to apply to everyone. Some people gained weight from medical issues, changes in lifestyle, stressful life events, etc. There are users here who gained their weight over a matter of years. As in, went from an active job to a management position desk job and put on 20 lbs over 5 years. These aren't people who are inactive or eating poorly, they simply had a priority shift (which also happens with age and increased responsibilities, btw) and those changes to their TDEE meant weight gain.

    4. Not everyone on MFP who counts calories has or has had a weight problem. Plenty of people use it to track calories and macros to meet their training goals. We're not all here for the same reason.

    You've found something that works for you, and that's wonderful. But you don't need to put other people down as not being as enlightened about weight loss as you tout yourself to be simply because they take another approach that fits their needs and their lifestyle.
  • elleshimn
    elleshimn Posts: 11 Member

    If we were all sticking to MFP's exact formula, many of us would be netting 1200 calories with all of our (MFP-inflated) exercise calories eaten back. Luckily, we get to use the tool how we want.

    Just curious what you mean by MFP-inflated?
  • Iwishyouwell
    Iwishyouwell Posts: 1,888 Member
    I think it's funny how some of us calorie counters seem threatened when someone is doing something different ! All of these " this is a calorie counting site". This site is so much more than a calorie in/ out log. There is tons of information about exercise. Many motivational threads. Success stories. Challenges. You can find groups that cover every exercise and eating choice. If the only purpose of MFP was to count calories it would not be as popular or as useful. So in an area about motivation and support - let's be supportive! Congratulations on your weight loss.

    The most supportive thing anyone has said in this thread. Thank you for understanding the context of my post. Also, thank you to the others who also acknowledged my point and congratulated me. I was able to break my weight barrier by joining this website and learning from you guys. Seems to be more negative people on here than I thought. To the poster that said I have a lot of weight to lose and that I'm still a young guy....Go Figure!!! That is why I am here! And I am proud of my youth and wouldn't trade it for the world. Enjoying life.

    I'm the one who said you're a young guy with alot to lose and that's why your plan is working--you don't get it at all. As you get older this won't work. It's easier to lose when you're younger. In 20 years I'd like to see you on this plan of yours. However, I don't want you to fail, and I don't think anyone on MFP wants that. All of the negative comments are from people that have seen it before. They are just trying to inform you to be careful as you get closer to goal so you won't stall. I think that's nice even if you don't.

    What nonsense.

    What do you think all those millions of human beings did to lose weight BEFORE the calorie was ever discovered? Or in the many parts of the world today where caloric labeling is spotty, at best, and access to calorie counting material is equally as unreliable? And sorry, not all of them were in their 20s.

    Lets get real. Calorie counting has almost as abysmal long term statistics as any other weight loss method. It does not, even remotely, give you any kind of significant advantage for long term results, regardless of age.

    To tell somebody that when they get old they're likely to fail if they don't calorie count, yet acting like calorie counting has been proven to be the holy grail, is so disingenuous. The VAST majority of people eventually fall off the calorie counting bandwagon. They get frustrated with walking that tightrope, rebel, and dive right off. Don't believe me? Check the statistics and studies.

    If people learned to eat intuitively, as we once did naturally, we wouldn't even need calorie counting apps. Also learning to buck modern western society's obsession with avoiding hunger is helpful. We once understood hunger, and delayed gratification, was an absolutely normal, expected occurrence. Yes, it's going to be very difficult to lose without counting and logging for the rest of your life if you panic every single time a little hunger, or craving, comes knocking.
  • Iwishyouwell
    Iwishyouwell Posts: 1,888 Member
    good for them... although if their relationship with food is so healthy, I still wonder how they got overweight in the first place.

    Because once having an unhealthy relationship with food doesn't mean always having an unhealthy relationship with food.

    Speaking for myself, I just finally learned from all the scale ups, dieting failures, and falls. Those taught me just as much, if not more, about correcting my relationship with foods as the successes.
  • NovemberJune
    NovemberJune Posts: 2,525 Member
    I eat until I'm full nomnomnomnoms! :bigsmile:

    ETA AND count calories <3 mfp
  • rockmama72
    rockmama72 Posts: 815 Member

    If we were all sticking to MFP's exact formula, many of us would be netting 1200 calories with all of our (MFP-inflated) exercise calories eaten back. Luckily, we get to use the tool how we want.

    Just curious what you mean by MFP-inflated?

    Notoriously high calorie burn estimates for the exercises in the MFP database.
  • snowflake954
    snowflake954 Posts: 8,400 Member
    I think it's funny how some of us calorie counters seem threatened when someone is doing something different ! All of these " this is a calorie counting site". This site is so much more than a calorie in/ out log. There is tons of information about exercise. Many motivational threads. Success stories. Challenges. You can find groups that cover every exercise and eating choice. If the only purpose of MFP was to count calories it would not be as popular or as useful. So in an area about motivation and support - let's be supportive! Congratulations on your weight loss.

    The most supportive thing anyone has said in this thread. Thank you for understanding the context of my post. Also, thank you to the others who also acknowledged my point and congratulated me. I was able to break my weight barrier by joining this website and learning from you guys. Seems to be more negative people on here than I thought. To the poster that said I have a lot of weight to lose and that I'm still a young guy....Go Figure!!! That is why I am here! And I am proud of my youth and wouldn't trade it for the world. Enjoying life.

    I'm the one who said you're a young guy with alot to lose and that's why your plan is working--you don't get it at all. As you get older this won't work. It's easier to lose when you're younger. In 20 years I'd like to see you on this plan of yours. However, I don't want you to fail, and I don't think anyone on MFP wants that. All of the negative comments are from people that have seen it before. They are just trying to inform you to be careful as you get closer to goal so you won't stall. I think that's nice even if you don't.

    What nonsense.

    What do you think all those millions of human beings did to lose weight BEFORE the calorie was ever discovered? Or in the many parts of the world today where caloric labeling is spotty, at best, and access to calorie counting material is equally as unreliable? And sorry, not all of them were in their 20s.

    Lets get real. Calorie counting has almost as abysmal long term statistics as any other weight loss method. It does not, even remotely, give you any kind of significant advantage for long term results, regardless of age.

    To tell somebody that when they get old they're likely to fail if they don't calorie count, yet acting like calorie counting has been proven to be the holy grail, is so disingenuous. The VAST majority of people eventually fall off the calorie counting bandwagon. They get frustrated with walking that tightrope, rebel, and dive right off. Don't believe me? Check the statistics and studies.

    If people learned to eat intuitively, as we once did naturally, we wouldn't even need calorie counting apps. Also learning to buck modern western society's obsession with avoiding hunger is helpful. We once understood hunger, and delayed gratification, was an absolutely normal, expected occurrence. Yes, it's going to be very difficult to lose without counting and logging for the rest of your life if you panic every single time a little hunger, or craving, comes knocking.

    I'd like to point out to you that once upon a time, there were not so many tempting food choices and people died much younger--they didn't do blood work, blood pressure checks, etc, and most lived until 40--if they were lucky. There were not gyms, but manual labor. If you even see pictures of the 50's or 60's in America, you won't see many obese people. People didn't think about dieting, many just had to think about survival at the turn of the century. We live in a modern era with modern problems. I'm glad you're in sync with yourself, even if some of us have different experiences and ideas. Best.
  • TheEffort
    TheEffort Posts: 1,028 Member
    To the OP - great accomplishment. :smile:
  • Domineer
    Domineer Posts: 239 Member
    If I eat correctly during the week?
    So what you are saying is that I should be mentally keeping track of everything I eat and my activity level and hoping that I don't forget anything in order to make sure I'm at a deficit, I hope, each week? And then I should trust my intuition/memory to know if I can have some high calorie treat, instead of having the documentation and confidence to be sure it fits? If I'm not keeping track, how do I know if I can even have that apple with yogurt tonight, and do I have room for some granola on that? At 200-300 calories, that's not unhealthy or indulgent, but, it could cut my deficit in half if I'm already at my goal for the day...which I wouldn't know if I wasn't logging it all.

    How exactly is all that mental keeping track better than actually writing it down and not having to worry about it? I don't have a regular schedule where I eat my meals at a specific time and only eat at those times, and only eat a specific kind of thing in specific amounts at specific times...nor do I want a schedule like that. If every day is different...well, I just can't (and don't want to) spend so much mental energy thinking about how much I've eaten. I can write it down and forget it. You seem to look down on logging because it's stressful and obsessive...for some if us, logging it all allows us NOT to stress and obsess.

    As I said, IF IT WORKS FOR YOU, that's awesome. I'm glad you've found a sustainable method that works for you, and I hope it keeps working that way even as you approach your goal and a couple hundred calories a day starts to make a difference...but the tone you are taking with those of us who are pro-logging is condescending. Please stop insisting that a method that is working for so many people is unnecessary, just because it's unnecessary for you. I would hate for a newbie to become discouraged because they read something that makes them feel like logging is too stressful, too obsessive and they should be better than that and not need it.

    I track the food I eat in my own journal. I think you are misunderstanding me. I frequently glance at my food journal for the week to see what kind of food I've been eating. From that, I can assess to see if I had enough clean food to enjoy a nice sized cheat dessert or meal. Since I don't count food calories, I use my own judgement. That is all.
  • Domineer
    Domineer Posts: 239 Member
    I'm not counting calories anymore, I am quite capable of judging what is a good portion size, what is healthy, what is not.

    In theory.

    In practice, if I want to lose weight again (I'm maintaining but every now and then I need to kick myself back when the weight starts creeping up), the only way to do this is by old fashioned calorie counting. Just to remind myself.

    Well said and that is what I did in the beginning to get started. If you've been eating healthy and losing weight for a good stretch of time, chances are you have repeated some meal choices and I would think that most people would know how much food was on their plate when they ate it. I dunno, maybe this is a far-fetched assumption.
  • Domineer
    Domineer Posts: 239 Member
    I'm honestly not sure if you simply don't understand what people are saying to you, or are just being deliberately obtuse because they're not saying what you want to hear. There have been several good points that people have made that you seem to be ignoring:

    1. You are young. Yes, you've acknowledged that it is an advantage, but you don't seem to grasp the enormity of what that means. It's not just metabolism slowing down with age. Aging also means joint issues, mobility issues, range of motion issues, and a host of other issues which can affect a person's ability to exercise and lose weight. I'm 35, and the difference between what I was physically able to do at 29 and now after having two children is startling. And I've never been overweight in my life, I'm here to lose weight put on during a difficult pregnancy that also resulted in joint damage.

    2. You had a lot of weight to lose. Several people have pointed this out. It's the science of weight loss. The less you have to lose, the less wiggle room you have in your calories. So while eating a certain way and eyeballing things may work for you, it's not going to be that way for people with less to lose. A few extra calories here and there can make a really big difference.

    3. You're making a lot of assumptions. You may have gained weight from being lazy and stuffing your face with fried food, but that is not the case for everyone here. So while it is great that getting exercise and making better food choices was the key to your weight loss, it's not going to apply to everyone. Some people gained weight from medical issues, changes in lifestyle, stressful life events, etc. There are users here who gained their weight over a matter of years. As in, went from an active job to a management position desk job and put on 20 lbs over 5 years. These aren't people who are inactive or eating poorly, they simply had a priority shift (which also happens with age and increased responsibilities, btw) and those changes to their TDEE meant weight gain.

    4. Not everyone on MFP who counts calories has or has had a weight problem. Plenty of people use it to track calories and macros to meet their training goals. We're not all here for the same reason.

    You've found something that works for you, and that's wonderful. But you don't need to put other people down as not being as enlightened about weight loss as you tout yourself to be simply because they take another approach that fits their needs and their lifestyle.

    I've never passed judgement on anyone. And to say i've only gained weight from stuffing my face with fried food is an assumption and "obtuse". Fact is I don't know you and you don't know me. I didn't make this thread to debate with people on what is the most effective weight loss plan for everybody, I was simply trying to connect with others like me. You are very intuitive in your responses but you also have a hollow ground to base your lengthy response on. I respect your opinion but you are way off in assuming I'm passing judgement and ignorant of the issues of weight gain due to age or starting point. You are preaching to choir.
  • jwdieter
    jwdieter Posts: 2,582 Member
    I'd guess over 3 billion people lose weight each day without counting calories. And I'd also guess over 4 billion people have never been overweight, also without counting calories.
  • Domineer
    Domineer Posts: 239 Member
    I think it's funny how some of us calorie counters seem threatened when someone is doing something different ! All of these " this is a calorie counting site". This site is so much more than a calorie in/ out log. There is tons of information about exercise. Many motivational threads. Success stories. Challenges. You can find groups that cover every exercise and eating choice. If the only purpose of MFP was to count calories it would not be as popular or as useful. So in an area about motivation and support - let's be supportive! Congratulations on your weight loss.

    The most supportive thing anyone has said in this thread. Thank you for understanding the context of my post. Also, thank you to the others who also acknowledged my point and congratulated me. I was able to break my weight barrier by joining this website and learning from you guys. Seems to be more negative people on here than I thought. To the poster that said I have a lot of weight to lose and that I'm still a young guy....Go Figure!!! That is why I am here! And I am proud of my youth and wouldn't trade it for the world. Enjoying life.

    I'm the one who said you're a young guy with alot to lose and that's why your plan is working--you don't get it at all. As you get older this won't work. It's easier to lose when you're younger. In 20 years I'd like to see you on this plan of yours. However, I don't want you to fail, and I don't think anyone on MFP wants that. All of the negative comments are from people that have seen it before. They are just trying to inform you to be careful as you get closer to goal so you won't stall. I think that's nice even if you don't.

    What nonsense.

    What do you think all those millions of human beings did to lose weight BEFORE the calorie was ever discovered? Or in the many parts of the world today where caloric labeling is spotty, at best, and access to calorie counting material is equally as unreliable? And sorry, not all of them were in their 20s.

    Lets get real. Calorie counting has almost as abysmal long term statistics as any other weight loss method. It does not, even remotely, give you any kind of significant advantage for long term results, regardless of age.

    To tell somebody that when they get old they're likely to fail if they don't calorie count, yet acting like calorie counting has been proven to be the holy grail, is so disingenuous. The VAST majority of people eventually fall off the calorie counting bandwagon. They get frustrated with walking that tightrope, rebel, and dive right off. Don't believe me? Check the statistics and studies.

    If people learned to eat intuitively, as we once did naturally, we wouldn't even need calorie counting apps. Also learning to buck modern western society's obsession with avoiding hunger is helpful. We once understood hunger, and delayed gratification, was an absolutely normal, expected occurrence. Yes, it's going to be very difficult to lose without counting and logging for the rest of your life if you panic every single time a little hunger, or craving, comes knocking.

    Dude, you are highly intelligent and I love the elaboration on the salient points I was trying to make. Calorie counting is a fairly new trend, in comparison to the amount of time the human being has existed on the planet. We are the fattest generation of people. Take your cell phone, car, bike, and modern food convenience places away and what do you have? A fit person with a habit of managing hunger responses to maintain a healthy weight. I never walk around hungry. When I feel hungry most times, it comes from the many years of responding to a false reflex that could have been curtailed with proper nutritional understanding and comprehension. I love food just like all Americans do. Now that I've lost my 80 lbs, I look at food differently and I don't base my life off of it. I actually enjoy the average 2 or 3 mile walk, whereas I had trouble walking 5 blocks without feeling exhausted in my heavier days. Calorie counting can be beneficial in many ways but if you cannot learn what you put in your body after years of eating the same foods that helped you achieve your weight goals, then your dependency is not going to sustain it as long as you think. That is all I was saying.