Is 'eating at deficit' enough?

PaleoPath4Lyfe

You are trying to simplify what is not as simple. Obviously you did not read the study and how a calorie is a calorie only applies to Law 1 of thermodynamics and thinking as such actually violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

And you obviously don't understand the study you linked to. As I tore it apart in another thread where it was mentioned, it's absolute garbage.

Firstly, they misdefine every law of thermodynamics except the first. As such, they have no business talking about the laws of thermodynamics in the first place.

Secondly, human bodies are not closed systems. As such, the argument(s) that they are trying to make don't apply.

You took the words right out of my fingers. I didn't even finish the article because it was so bad and such a horrible misunderstanding of thermodynamics.
:drinker:

Since this study comes from a very reputable source I am inclined to believe it is you all that have the misunderstanding of the laws of thermodynamics.

In that case, I invite you to go to your local library or used book store, pick up ANY chemistry or physics textbook, and compare the definitions of the Laws of Thermodynamics to how the study defined them.

I have studied Chemistry, Physics and Biology and the Laws of Thermodynamics have no place to be discussed when dealing with the human body.

It is not that simple, cut and dry.

geebusuk

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

PaleoPath4Lyfe

Everyone is different. Personally carbs are my downfall. I can eat clean and lose all kinds of weight even over my caloric intake. The best ides is to do a body fat % and see what works for you. Losing weight isn't a cookie cutter situation. Some people need different way to attack it.

End of

Sorry but, no. No one can eat above TDEE and lose weight. That would defy the laws of thermodynamics. It really is just calories.

Technically you are right. However, it's extremely difficult to know EXACTLY how many calories you're taking in because even food labels are often incorrect, it's extremely difficult to know EXACTLY how much you're burning per day and therefore it could appear as if you're eating over your TDEE and losing weight but your body is obviously either burning more than you realise or you are taking in less than you realise. And this is when it can appear as though you are not creating a deficit and still losing weight. What the person you quoted is probably experiencing is that their body functions more effectively on a clean diet and they end up expending more energy than they were previously which could be for a number of reasons. The body is a complicated vessel.

Not technically right, absolutely right. A "clean" diet (I still haven't found 2 people who can agree on what that even is) or any other diet will perform EXACTLY the same given the same energy balance in terms of WEIGHT LOSS. Again, these types of arguments only muddy the water for people just starting out. WHAT you eat makes NO difference in terms of WEIGHT loss......NONE. 2000 calories of Twinkies or 2000 calories of kale at the same level of calorie burn will produce the same results for weight loss.

Sorry but I can't agree. There is a lot of evidence that shows that people on a higher protein diet burn more energy than people eating lower amounts of protein. People eating lower protein also lose the most muscle and the least fat. If you take someone who is carb sensitive and put them on a high carb eating plan, they will not lose weight as fast as someone who is completely healthy. People do not process foods in the same way, and that is proved by the many people who can tolerate certain foods while others can't and those who get extremely hungry eating mostly carbohydrates while others don't. I would really like to see some evidence that what you say is correct other than "because I said so".

I can produce as much evidence to prove my point as you can to prove yours. With that said, you can go back and read my posts and they refer to "weight loss". Not "fat loss", not "muscle retention" (except that one where I was making a different point), not overall health. The reason I dig my heels in on this is because for people to lose weight, all people, every people (good grammar, I know) is a calorie deficit. It is mind numbingly simple. You can explain it to someone in a couple of minutes or just a few typed sentences. I would bet the vast majority of people starting out to lose weight don't know much about macro distribution and probably don't care, at least to begin with. Now the OP said, if you are eating at a deficit AND not losing weight, its probably the food you are eating. That is just false and all of my replies have been to address that point in general. I take issue with anyone who follows any diet that says anything other than CICO for WEIGHT LOSS, because that is all that matters for weight loss. It never fails that "clean eaters" or paleo eaters jump all over this and proclaim it false. It is not false. I welcome all comers to produce evidence to prove that eating fewer calories than you burn will NOT cause weight loss.

ETA an apology for typos and grammar that I am just too lazy to fix.

Just a thumbs up! I love when people say "give me studies to prove your point" when they don't produce any studies to prove their own.

Yeah and I love it when people say post your studies from Pub Med and other reputable sites and when you do they try to still call the study invalid.

<ROLL EYES TO THE MAX>

PaleoPath4Lyfe

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

Hornsby

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

My explanation is that it isn't true...

prattiger65

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

Thank you for posting this. You have proven my point.

pennyllayne

Oh jesus . I said it's more than that, I didn't say calories don't matter. Meaning a calorie deficit as well as eating foods that your body can effectively process for many people. So someone with a tendency to store carbs as fat eating at maintenance on carbs alone will be able to gain weight because their body isn't expending all the energy it is extracting. As I said, twisting my words...

Just to be clear, if they are gaining weight, they are not at 'maintenance', which is where you weight stays constant. They are in a calorie surplus.

Well you're twisting my words, aren't you? I've said a number of times that it's difficult to determine how many calories our bodies burn and therefore you can not actually know exactly what your maintenance calories are. So if you take a general calculation of maintenance calories (say using MFP) and eat that you can still gain weight because you don't actually know how many calories your body is burning. You could have a very slow metabolism, or if you are eating carbs and your body doesn't deal with them well you will store them more easily a fat and your body won't be able to use those calories as easily for energy. Technically no they won't be in a deficit but they are not going to know that because they are only doing what the computer tells them. If you knew exactly how your body was processing each calorie and how much energy you were extracting and burning then you could find a rate of calories where your rate would stay constant, but as far as I'm aware there is no way of doing such a thing. And my point is that our bodies process different foods differently and it's different for every person. So 2 people of the same body composition, height, weight, age could be put on the same amount of calories and one could maintain whilst the other gains.

pennyllayne

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

Did anyone offer you advice of why this was happening? It does sound very curious, but as I don't claim to know everything about weight loss and health I'm not going to conclude that you must be lying simply because there is no other way I can believe it. Science changes all the time, there is a lot we don't know. I'm not going to sit here and say you can't gain weight eating below your TDEE because I simply have not tested that on every person in the world and I think it would be ignorant of anyone to claim that unless they can some how prove that every person in the world is the same despite evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, despite having an open mind, I am not sure I've heard of anyone eating 1,400 cals and gaining weight. That's a pretty low amount for anyone really unless you're a very small person. So I'm actually very curious about this. I can believe that you are eating 2400 cals and losing weight though as high fat seems to help the body burn body fat more efficiently as it is the body's preferred fuel source for long term energy needs and I'd reckon this diet is actually making you expend more energy. But I'd really like to know how you gained all that weight being in a large deficit...

magerum

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

Did anyone offer you advice of why this was happening? It does sound very curious, but as I don't claim to know everything about weight loss and health I'm not going to conclude that you must be lying simply because there is no other way I can believe it. Science changes all the time, there is a lot we don't know. I'm not going to sit here and say you can't gain weight eating below your TDEE because I simply have not tested that on every person in the world and I think it would be ignorant of anyone to claim that unless they can some how prove that every person in the world is the same despite evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, despite having an open mind, I am not sure I've heard of anyone eating 1,400 cals and gaining weight. That's a pretty low amount for anyone really unless you're a very small person. So I'm actually very curious about this. I can believe that you are eating 2400 cals and losing weight though as high fat seems to help the body burn body fat more efficiently as it is the body's preferred fuel source for long term energy needs and I'd reckon this diet is actually making you expend more energy. But I'd really like to know how you gained all that weight being in a large deficit...

Clearly it's wizardry and a marvel. One should immediately give over to being studied as they defy all known laws of thermodynamics.

pennyllayne

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

Did anyone offer you advice of why this was happening? It does sound very curious, but as I don't claim to know everything about weight loss and health I'm not going to conclude that you must be lying simply because there is no other way I can believe it. Science changes all the time, there is a lot we don't know. I'm not going to sit here and say you can't gain weight eating below your TDEE because I simply have not tested that on every person in the world and I think it would be ignorant of anyone to claim that unless they can some how prove that every person in the world is the same despite evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, despite having an open mind, I am not sure I've heard of anyone eating 1,400 cals and gaining weight. That's a pretty low amount for anyone really unless you're a very small person. So I'm actually very curious about this. I can believe that you are eating 2400 cals and losing weight though as high fat seems to help the body burn body fat more efficiently as it is the body's preferred fuel source for long term energy needs and I'd reckon this diet is actually making you expend more energy. But I'd really like to know how you gained all that weight being in a large deficit...

Clearly it's wizardry and a marvel. One should immediately give over to being studied as they defy all known laws of thermodynamics.

Yeah that's what they said before the discovery of leptin. A hormone that regulates how much fat you store in your body? Never! Just someone's figment of their imagination.

magerum

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

Did anyone offer you advice of why this was happening? It does sound very curious, but as I don't claim to know everything about weight loss and health I'm not going to conclude that you must be lying simply because there is no other way I can believe it. Science changes all the time, there is a lot we don't know. I'm not going to sit here and say you can't gain weight eating below your TDEE because I simply have not tested that on every person in the world and I think it would be ignorant of anyone to claim that unless they can some how prove that every person in the world is the same despite evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, despite having an open mind, I am not sure I've heard of anyone eating 1,400 cals and gaining weight. That's a pretty low amount for anyone really unless you're a very small person. So I'm actually very curious about this. I can believe that you are eating 2400 cals and losing weight though as high fat seems to help the body burn body fat more efficiently as it is the body's preferred fuel source for long term energy needs and I'd reckon this diet is actually making you expend more energy. But I'd really like to know how you gained all that weight being in a large deficit...

Clearly it's wizardry and a marvel. One should immediately give over to being studied as they defy all known laws of thermodynamics.

Yeah that's what they said before the discovery of leptin. A hormone that regulates how much fat you store in your body? Never! Just someone's figment of their imagination.

I did say they should be studied.

deksgrl

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

Where did TDEE 2200 come from?

LiftAllThePizzas

Everyone is different. Personally carbs are my downfall. I can eat clean and lose all kinds of weight even over my caloric intake. The best ides is to do a body fat % and see what works for you. Losing weight isn't a cookie cutter situation. Some people need different way to attack it.

End of

Sorry but, no. No one can eat above TDEE and lose weight. That would defy the laws of thermodynamics. It really is just calories.

Technically you are right. However, it's extremely difficult to know EXACTLY how many calories you're taking in because even food labels are often incorrect, it's extremely difficult to know EXACTLY how much you're burning per day and therefore it could appear as if you're eating over your TDEE and losing weight but your body is obviously either burning more than you realise or you are taking in less than you realise. And this is when it can appear as though you are not creating a deficit and still losing weight. What the person you quoted is probably experiencing is that their body functions more effectively on a clean diet and they end up expending more energy than they were previously which could be for a number of reasons. The body is a complicated vessel.

Not technically right, absolutely right. A "clean" diet (I still haven't found 2 people who can agree on what that even is) or any other diet will perform EXACTLY the same given the same energy balance in terms of WEIGHT LOSS. Again, these types of arguments only muddy the water for people just starting out. WHAT you eat makes NO difference in terms of WEIGHT loss......NONE. 2000 calories of Twinkies or 2000 calories of kale at the same level of calorie burn will produce the same results for weight loss.

Sorry but I can't agree. There is a lot of evidence that shows that people on a higher protein diet burn more energy than people eating lower amounts of protein. People eating lower protein also lose the most muscle and the least fat. If you take someone who is carb sensitive and put them on a high carb eating plan, they will not lose weight as fast as someone who is completely healthy. People do not process foods in the same way, and that is proved by the many people who can tolerate certain foods while others can't and those who get extremely hungry eating mostly carbohydrates while others don't. I would really like to see some evidence that what you say is correct other than "because I said so".

you are talking about Thematic effect of Food (TEF) which has been shown to have a slight increase, but it is so slight that it is negligible.

also, you are combining two separate issues; first - people with no medical condition; second - people with a medical condition.

yes, people with some kind of medical condition will lose more slow than the rest of us, but they still have to have a negative energy balance….

So at the end of the day it comes down to amount of calories eaten - "calories in vs calories out" - not, "quality of calories consumed"….

You're just repeating what has already been said. For some people, calories alone can cause weight loss. For many, it's about more than that, especially once you get closer to your goals. I was talking about more than just the thermic effects of food, but I have seen studies where in some people the increase in energy expenditure was up to 300 calories. I'd hardly call that negligible.

And yes, I know there's a difference between people with a medical condition and people without but there are a lot of people who refuse to believe that that matters. Of course you still need a calorie deficit, but I get tired of people saying "We're all the same". We're not. Some of us have medical conditions and others don't. Some people just generally have a tougher time losing weight or slower BMRs while others don't. And as I've said, different foods react in the body differently. If one person ate 2000 calories of protein whilst another ate 2000 calories of sugar, the first person will preserve more muscle and burn more energy and therefore lose more weight than the second. Additionally, all that sugar and lack of nutrients will place stress on the body and it will be less efficient at burning fat. The first person will also be feeding their body an inefficient source of fuel which will be less likely to be stored as fat than the sugar.

So I didn't at any point say that people who lose weight slower don't need an energy imbalance, I'm saying that the SAME energy deficit will result in slower loss for those people than for others and I'm disputing that 2000 calories of kale will react the same way in the body as 2000 cals of twinkies because that's simply not true. The body will extract more energy and at a faster rate from twinkies than from kale as kale is harder to break down and it has a lot of nutrients. Whether the difference in calories extracted is large or not, the fact remains the same; those 2 foods do not react the same way in the body. We are not machines. And my point was that because of this, it is near impossible to actually determine how many calories we are taking in and how many we are expending. You don't have to have a medical condition to have a slow metabolism. People here are talking in very general terms as if every diet performs the same for everyone and that just isn't true.

First - you seem to be contradicting yourself in the first paragraph you say that it is not about calories for some people, but then you go on to agree that calorie deficit is what causes weight loss. Calorie deficit is what causes weight loss for everyone.

Second - please provide a link to that study, as everyone I have seen has always said that the effect is not enough to make a significant impact on weight loss/metabolism.

third - of course the same energy imbalance will not work the same for everyone. I have 12% body fat and at a 500 calorie deficit, I am going to lose a lot slower then say an obese male with 25% body fat. I don't think anyone even made that point…

Finally - who in the heck would want to eat 2000 calories of kale *gag* or 2000 calories of sugar???? I do not really think that is a valid comparison. Ever heard of the twinkie diet? The guy ate twinkies and lost weight and body fat ….here is a link to a general article about it:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

here is a snippet about his health indicators after the diet:

"Haub's "bad" cholesterol, or LDL, dropped 20 percent and his "good" cholesterol, or HDL, increased by 20 percent. He reduced the level of triglycerides, which are a form of fat, by 39 percent."

so you might want to re think what you are saying about the 2000 calorie sugar diet...

No you're twisting my words. I said it's not ONLY about calories. I do not disagree that a calorie deficit is needed, but in many cases it is not the only factor.

the guy who I quoted did actually say that weight loss will occur at the same rate for everyone no matter what is eaten and you have quoted my response to him. The comparison I used was the same as his, stating that 2000 calories of kale or 2000 calories of twinkies would produce the same results. I am only using the comparisons that others are to prove my point, so don't take issue with me on it. I haven't said you can't lose weight eating only twinkies at a deficit, but are you seriously suggesting that you'd get the same results eating the same calories of vegetables?? Or that a female would lose the same amount of weight? Or someone who is carb sensitive would lose at the same rate? The article doesn't say how much his muscle mass changed but I would expect muscle loss would be more on a low protein diet. There can be a number of reasons for the changes in his health markers and since he didn't eat twinkies alone it would be hard to say, but anyway that was never my point.

you are the one contradicting yourself..saying that calories do not matter for some of us, and then coming back and saying that calorie deficit is what works.

All I am saying is that you can eat what people call "garbage" aka twinkies , and lose weight and have better health markers. Would it be the same if you ate only vegetables, probably not, but you would probably burn through as much muscle on a diet of only vegetables as you would on a diet of only twinkies.

I never said that people lose weight at the same rate, and I do not think anyone in this thread did.

I never said calories DON'T matter for some of us! Please point out exactly where I said that. I have said a calorie deficit is needed in EVERY case but rates of weight loss will be different depending on what is eaten. I never said you CAN'T lose weight only eating twinkies, did I? And yes, it has been said many times that no matter what you eat, weight loss will be the same. Please read the other posts. Please read the post of the poster that I quoted where he says exactly that using 2000 cals of kale and 2000 cals of twinkies as an example. I don't know why you're even arguing with me. We seem to actually agree here, but you're making out as if we don't. It's the guy I quoted you want to take issue with.

This:

"You're just repeating what has already been said. For some people, calories alone can cause weight loss. For many, it's about more than that, especially once you get closer to your goals" < you just said that for some people calorie deficit alone will not lead to weight loss, and it is "more" then that….

Oh jesus . I said it's more than that, I didn't say calories don't matter. Meaning a calorie deficit as well as eating foods that your body can effectively process for many people. So someone with a tendency to store carbs as fat eating at maintenance on carbs alone will be able to gain weight because their body isn't expending all the energy it is extracting. As I said, twisting my words...

Um, if someone's body is not expending all the energy it is extracting, and they are gaining weight, then they are not at maintenance.

pennyllayne

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

Did anyone offer you advice of why this was happening? It does sound very curious, but as I don't claim to know everything about weight loss and health I'm not going to conclude that you must be lying simply because there is no other way I can believe it. Science changes all the time, there is a lot we don't know. I'm not going to sit here and say you can't gain weight eating below your TDEE because I simply have not tested that on every person in the world and I think it would be ignorant of anyone to claim that unless they can some how prove that every person in the world is the same despite evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, despite having an open mind, I am not sure I've heard of anyone eating 1,400 cals and gaining weight. That's a pretty low amount for anyone really unless you're a very small person. So I'm actually very curious about this. I can believe that you are eating 2400 cals and losing weight though as high fat seems to help the body burn body fat more efficiently as it is the body's preferred fuel source for long term energy needs and I'd reckon this diet is actually making you expend more energy. But I'd really like to know how you gained all that weight being in a large deficit...

Clearly it's wizardry and a marvel. One should immediately give over to being studied as they defy all known laws of thermodynamics.

Yeah that's what they said before the discovery of leptin. A hormone that regulates how much fat you store in your body? Never! Just someone's figment of their imagination.

I did say they should be studied.

Smart *kitten*

LiftAllThePizzas

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

That doesn't explain where the extra mass came from.

Your body is not capable of producing lipid molecules without an external energy source to put into those molecules. THAT would in fact violate fundamental laws of physics. Clearly the weight you gained was something else not dependent on calories to produce. Something like water. The fact that it is melting off at such a high rate also is consistent with it being something like water. Because your body is not suddenly burning thousands of extra calories worth of fat every day.

pennyllayne

Everyone is different. Personally carbs are my downfall. I can eat clean and lose all kinds of weight even over my caloric intake. The best ides is to do a body fat % and see what works for you. Losing weight isn't a cookie cutter situation. Some people need different way to attack it.

End of

Sorry but, no. No one can eat above TDEE and lose weight. That would defy the laws of thermodynamics. It really is just calories.

Technically you are right. However, it's extremely difficult to know EXACTLY how many calories you're taking in because even food labels are often incorrect, it's extremely difficult to know EXACTLY how much you're burning per day and therefore it could appear as if you're eating over your TDEE and losing weight but your body is obviously either burning more than you realise or you are taking in less than you realise. And this is when it can appear as though you are not creating a deficit and still losing weight. What the person you quoted is probably experiencing is that their body functions more effectively on a clean diet and they end up expending more energy than they were previously which could be for a number of reasons. The body is a complicated vessel.

Not technically right, absolutely right. A "clean" diet (I still haven't found 2 people who can agree on what that even is) or any other diet will perform EXACTLY the same given the same energy balance in terms of WEIGHT LOSS. Again, these types of arguments only muddy the water for people just starting out. WHAT you eat makes NO difference in terms of WEIGHT loss......NONE. 2000 calories of Twinkies or 2000 calories of kale at the same level of calorie burn will produce the same results for weight loss.

Sorry but I can't agree. There is a lot of evidence that shows that people on a higher protein diet burn more energy than people eating lower amounts of protein. People eating lower protein also lose the most muscle and the least fat. If you take someone who is carb sensitive and put them on a high carb eating plan, they will not lose weight as fast as someone who is completely healthy. People do not process foods in the same way, and that is proved by the many people who can tolerate certain foods while others can't and those who get extremely hungry eating mostly carbohydrates while others don't. I would really like to see some evidence that what you say is correct other than "because I said so".

you are talking about Thematic effect of Food (TEF) which has been shown to have a slight increase, but it is so slight that it is negligible.

also, you are combining two separate issues; first - people with no medical condition; second - people with a medical condition.

yes, people with some kind of medical condition will lose more slow than the rest of us, but they still have to have a negative energy balance….

So at the end of the day it comes down to amount of calories eaten - "calories in vs calories out" - not, "quality of calories consumed"….

You're just repeating what has already been said. For some people, calories alone can cause weight loss. For many, it's about more than that, especially once you get closer to your goals. I was talking about more than just the thermic effects of food, but I have seen studies where in some people the increase in energy expenditure was up to 300 calories. I'd hardly call that negligible.

And yes, I know there's a difference between people with a medical condition and people without but there are a lot of people who refuse to believe that that matters. Of course you still need a calorie deficit, but I get tired of people saying "We're all the same". We're not. Some of us have medical conditions and others don't. Some people just generally have a tougher time losing weight or slower BMRs while others don't. And as I've said, different foods react in the body differently. If one person ate 2000 calories of protein whilst another ate 2000 calories of sugar, the first person will preserve more muscle and burn more energy and therefore lose more weight than the second. Additionally, all that sugar and lack of nutrients will place stress on the body and it will be less efficient at burning fat. The first person will also be feeding their body an inefficient source of fuel which will be less likely to be stored as fat than the sugar.

So I didn't at any point say that people who lose weight slower don't need an energy imbalance, I'm saying that the SAME energy deficit will result in slower loss for those people than for others and I'm disputing that 2000 calories of kale will react the same way in the body as 2000 cals of twinkies because that's simply not true. The body will extract more energy and at a faster rate from twinkies than from kale as kale is harder to break down and it has a lot of nutrients. Whether the difference in calories extracted is large or not, the fact remains the same; those 2 foods do not react the same way in the body. We are not machines. And my point was that because of this, it is near impossible to actually determine how many calories we are taking in and how many we are expending. You don't have to have a medical condition to have a slow metabolism. People here are talking in very general terms as if every diet performs the same for everyone and that just isn't true.

First - you seem to be contradicting yourself in the first paragraph you say that it is not about calories for some people, but then you go on to agree that calorie deficit is what causes weight loss. Calorie deficit is what causes weight loss for everyone.

Second - please provide a link to that study, as everyone I have seen has always said that the effect is not enough to make a significant impact on weight loss/metabolism.

third - of course the same energy imbalance will not work the same for everyone. I have 12% body fat and at a 500 calorie deficit, I am going to lose a lot slower then say an obese male with 25% body fat. I don't think anyone even made that point…

Finally - who in the heck would want to eat 2000 calories of kale *gag* or 2000 calories of sugar???? I do not really think that is a valid comparison. Ever heard of the twinkie diet? The guy ate twinkies and lost weight and body fat ….here is a link to a general article about it:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

here is a snippet about his health indicators after the diet:

"Haub's "bad" cholesterol, or LDL, dropped 20 percent and his "good" cholesterol, or HDL, increased by 20 percent. He reduced the level of triglycerides, which are a form of fat, by 39 percent."

so you might want to re think what you are saying about the 2000 calorie sugar diet...

No you're twisting my words. I said it's not ONLY about calories. I do not disagree that a calorie deficit is needed, but in many cases it is not the only factor.

the guy who I quoted did actually say that weight loss will occur at the same rate for everyone no matter what is eaten and you have quoted my response to him. The comparison I used was the same as his, stating that 2000 calories of kale or 2000 calories of twinkies would produce the same results. I am only using the comparisons that others are to prove my point, so don't take issue with me on it. I haven't said you can't lose weight eating only twinkies at a deficit, but are you seriously suggesting that you'd get the same results eating the same calories of vegetables?? Or that a female would lose the same amount of weight? Or someone who is carb sensitive would lose at the same rate? The article doesn't say how much his muscle mass changed but I would expect muscle loss would be more on a low protein diet. There can be a number of reasons for the changes in his health markers and since he didn't eat twinkies alone it would be hard to say, but anyway that was never my point.

you are the one contradicting yourself..saying that calories do not matter for some of us, and then coming back and saying that calorie deficit is what works.

All I am saying is that you can eat what people call "garbage" aka twinkies , and lose weight and have better health markers. Would it be the same if you ate only vegetables, probably not, but you would probably burn through as much muscle on a diet of only vegetables as you would on a diet of only twinkies.

I never said that people lose weight at the same rate, and I do not think anyone in this thread did.

I never said calories DON'T matter for some of us! Please point out exactly where I said that. I have said a calorie deficit is needed in EVERY case but rates of weight loss will be different depending on what is eaten. I never said you CAN'T lose weight only eating twinkies, did I? And yes, it has been said many times that no matter what you eat, weight loss will be the same. Please read the other posts. Please read the post of the poster that I quoted where he says exactly that using 2000 cals of kale and 2000 cals of twinkies as an example. I don't know why you're even arguing with me. We seem to actually agree here, but you're making out as if we don't. It's the guy I quoted you want to take issue with.

This:

"You're just repeating what has already been said. For some people, calories alone can cause weight loss. For many, it's about more than that, especially once you get closer to your goals" < you just said that for some people calorie deficit alone will not lead to weight loss, and it is "more" then that….

Oh jesus . I said it's more than that, I didn't say calories don't matter. Meaning a calorie deficit as well as eating foods that your body can effectively process for many people. So someone with a tendency to store carbs as fat eating at maintenance on carbs alone will be able to gain weight because their body isn't expending all the energy it is extracting. As I said, twisting my words...

Um, if someone's body is not expending all the energy it is extracting, and they are gaining weight, then they are not at maintenance.

It's like you just want to nitpick...I already explained above what I meant about maintenance because it's impossible to know what your maintenance requirements are exactly. E.g. MFP says my maintenance cals are about 1750, I highly doubt it's that high at all and I imagine if I ate that amount I would gain weight. And even if that was correct, eating 1750 calories doesn't mean I'm burning that much.

LiftAllThePizzas

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

Where did TDEE 2200 come from?

What's even more amazing about this is that the weight she gained (if it were fat) would have required a surplus of 1875 calories a day every day for 8 weeks. And she was only eating 1400. So clearly her body is a perpetual motion machine and can extract free energy from the aether.

LiftAllThePizzas

So 2 people of the same body composition, height, weight, age could be put on the same amount of calories and one could maintain whilst the other gains.

Wow! Thanks for this amazing mind-boggling new information that nobody talking about CICO ever heard of or considered as a possibility or anything.

pennyllayne

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

That doesn't explain where the extra mass came from.

Your body is not capable of producing lipid molecules without an external energy source to put into those molecules. THAT would in fact violate fundamental laws of physics. Clearly the weight you gained was something else not dependent on calories to produce. Something like water. The fact that it is melting off at such a high rate also is consistent with it being something like water. Because your body is not suddenly burning thousands of extra calories worth of fat every day.

I would agree that a lot of it could be water, especially if the person was eating low carb beforehand. But 30lbs of water?? In fact it's have to be MORE than 30lbs of water as you should still be losing fat so if you're losing fat and your weight increases by 30lbs then you have gained more than 30lbs overall if it negates the would be loss. And even with water weight, your body doesn't hold onto it for 8 weeks, it eventually adjusts and weight should decrease. On 1400 calories, how could anyone be eating enough carbs to warrant 30lbs of water weight? It doesn't add up.

deksgrl

d I gained weight like no tomorrow.

I was in a steep deficit.

No.

You were in a calorie surplus.

If you are one of the 'special snowflakes' - and enough people out there do have bodies that behave significantly differently to the norm - then your body may have slowed down BMR and so, meaning you were in a surplus.

If you are gaining non-water weight, you are in a calorie surplus.

If you are in a deficit, you are losing weight (non-water) weight.

If you're suggesting otherwise, do explain where this mass has come from?

I was not in a calorie surplus. My TDEE was 2200, told to eat 1400 calories of low fat, high carb foods that were given to me, weighed, measured, etc. I gained almost 30 pounds in less than 8 weeks.

I eat almost 2400 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, low carb and losing weight fine.

EXPLAIN THAT. I am eating MORE than my TDEE and have most 20 pounds over the past 31 days.

Where did TDEE 2200 come from?

What's even more amazing about this is that the weight she gained (if it were fat) would have required a surplus of 1875 calories a day every day for 8 weeks. And she was only eating 1400. So clearly her body is a perpetual motion machine and can extract free energy from the aether.

TDEE & Maintenance