Ketosis and nutrient-intake

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  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
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    In for the keto, scientific misunderstanding and fear mongering.

    70% of everyone's calorie burn is from fat - do you mean from ketones?
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    No. Ketones are a product of fat oxidation. Ketones don't burn fat. Fat burning creates ketones. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to ask, because it's a question that doesn't really make sense.
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
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    No. Ketones are a product of fat oxidation. Ketones don't burn fat. Fat burning creates ketones. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to ask, because it's a question that doesn't really make sense.

    I was asking if you are talking about 70% of everyone's calorie burn coming from Ketones?
  • rlengland2014
    rlengland2014 Posts: 98 Member
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    There is a common misconception that the body has a preference for glucose. In fact, when one says that glucose is the preferred source biochemically, one means that the body will burn available glucose prior to protein, fat, ketones. If you look at it, alcohol is preferred over glucose, because the body will use alcohol preferentially over glucose. It does this because too high of a serum alcohol level is toxic to cells, just as too high of a serum glucose is toxic.
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    No. Ketones are a product of fat oxidation. Ketones don't burn fat. Fat burning creates ketones. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to ask, because it's a question that doesn't really make sense.

    I was asking if you are talking about 70% of everyone's calorie burn coming from Ketones?
    And the answer to that is no, as that question doesn't make sense. It's like asking if a fire comes from the smoke. Completely backwards.
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
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    No. Ketones are a product of fat oxidation. Ketones don't burn fat. Fat burning creates ketones. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to ask, because it's a question that doesn't really make sense.

    I was asking if you are talking about 70% of everyone's calorie burn coming from Ketones?
    And the answer to that is no, as that question doesn't make sense. It's like asking if a fire comes from the smoke. Completely backwards.

    So ketones aren't fuel?
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    There is a common misconception that the body has a preference for glucose. In fact, when one says that glucose is the preferred source biochemically, one means that the body will burn available glucose prior to protein, fat, ketones. If you look at it, alcohol is preferred over glucose, because the body will use alcohol preferentially over glucose. It does this because too high of a serum alcohol level is toxic to cells, just as too high of a serum glucose is toxic.
    So what happens when you have a blood alcohol level of zero? Now how about a blood glucose level of zero? Your comparison is highly flawed.
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    No. Ketones are a product of fat oxidation. Ketones don't burn fat. Fat burning creates ketones. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to ask, because it's a question that doesn't really make sense.

    I was asking if you are talking about 70% of everyone's calorie burn coming from Ketones?
    And the answer to that is no, as that question doesn't make sense. It's like asking if a fire comes from the smoke. Completely backwards.

    So ketones aren't fuel?
    Ketones can be used in the citric acid cycle when glucose is unavailable. During normal metabolism, no, they are not fuel.
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
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    No. Ketones are a product of fat oxidation. Ketones don't burn fat. Fat burning creates ketones. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to ask, because it's a question that doesn't really make sense.

    I was asking if you are talking about 70% of everyone's calorie burn coming from Ketones?
    And the answer to that is no, as that question doesn't make sense. It's like asking if a fire comes from the smoke. Completely backwards.

    So ketones aren't fuel?
    Ketones can be used in the citric acid cycle when glucose is unavailable. During normal metabolism, no, they are not fuel.
    Do you have any studies (peer reviewed) to support that claim?
  • pukekolive
    pukekolive Posts: 237 Member
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    This whole conversation is why I don't take on what people talk about in the forums - so much ignorance and misinformation - and I don't just mean the 'ketones as fuel' camp.

    Just about every 'explanation' or 'scientific backing' is flawed .....
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
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    This whole conversation is why I don't take on what people talk about in the forums - so much ignorance and misinformation - and I don't just mean the 'ketones as fuel' camp.

    Just about every 'explanation' or 'scientific backing' is flawed .....

    Agreed, I have the same issues with the 'glucose as the main fuel' camp and their flawed science. Not to mention the 'carbs are essential for survival' camp, or the 'brain only uses glucose' camp.

    Way too much misinformation and ignorance, but hey it's fun to debate.:smile:
  • FXOjafar
    FXOjafar Posts: 174 Member
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    If you are worried about missing nutrients, start tracking and take a good multi.

    Also for keto, your protein goal is a target. Try and hit it without exceeding. Your carb target is a limit so try not to go over. Fat is the filler to give you energy and fill up your calorie needs.

    Don't listen to the doom mongers and nay sayers. Science is on your side on this. Keto/Paleo, even long term is good for you and despite the weight loss benefit, you are protected against Diabetes, Heart disease, Alzheimers etc....
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    No. Ketones are a product of fat oxidation. Ketones don't burn fat. Fat burning creates ketones. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to ask, because it's a question that doesn't really make sense.

    I was asking if you are talking about 70% of everyone's calorie burn coming from Ketones?
    And the answer to that is no, as that question doesn't make sense. It's like asking if a fire comes from the smoke. Completely backwards.

    So ketones aren't fuel?
    Ketones can be used in the citric acid cycle when glucose is unavailable. During normal metabolism, no, they are not fuel.
    Do you have any studies (peer reviewed) to support that claim?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24706027

    "Acetoacetate (AcAc) and 3-hydroxybutyrate (3HB), the two main ketone bodies of humans, are important vectors of energy transport from the liver to extrahepatic tissues, especially during fasting, when glucose supply is low."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24692138
    "During pronged fasting, hepatic gluconeogenesis is the primary source for endogenous glucose production. Fasting also promotes lipolysis in adipose tissue, resulting in release of nonesterified fatty acids which are converted into ketone bodies in hepatic mitochondria though β-oxidation and ketogenesis."

    During fasting, when glucose is low.
  • aeb09
    aeb09 Posts: 424 Member
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    Yikes so much misinformation in here...


    OP make sure you eat plenty of leafy greens (the darker the better) and that you're getting enough potassium. Best of luck!
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
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    No. Ketones are a product of fat oxidation. Ketones don't burn fat. Fat burning creates ketones. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to ask, because it's a question that doesn't really make sense.

    I was asking if you are talking about 70% of everyone's calorie burn coming from Ketones?
    And the answer to that is no, as that question doesn't make sense. It's like asking if a fire comes from the smoke. Completely backwards.

    So ketones aren't fuel?
    Ketones can be used in the citric acid cycle when glucose is unavailable. During normal metabolism, no, they are not fuel.
    Do you have any studies (peer reviewed) to support that claim?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24706027

    "Acetoacetate (AcAc) and 3-hydroxybutyrate (3HB), the two main ketone bodies of humans, are important vectors of energy transport from the liver to extrahepatic tissues, especially during fasting, when glucose supply is low."

    I eat a low carb high fat diet so my normal metabolism has a low glucose supply, therefore for me and plenty of others ketones are fuel! Also anybody fasting (does that count the normal fast we all take part in between our last food of the evening and the first food the following day?), will be using ketones as fuel.

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724.abstract?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=maratos-flier&fulltext=ketosis&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7554586
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
    Options
    No. Ketones are a product of fat oxidation. Ketones don't burn fat. Fat burning creates ketones. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to ask, because it's a question that doesn't really make sense.

    I was asking if you are talking about 70% of everyone's calorie burn coming from Ketones?
    And the answer to that is no, as that question doesn't make sense. It's like asking if a fire comes from the smoke. Completely backwards.

    So ketones aren't fuel?
    Ketones can be used in the citric acid cycle when glucose is unavailable. During normal metabolism, no, they are not fuel.
    Do you have any studies (peer reviewed) to support that claim?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24706027

    "Acetoacetate (AcAc) and 3-hydroxybutyrate (3HB), the two main ketone bodies of humans, are important vectors of energy transport from the liver to extrahepatic tissues, especially during fasting, when glucose supply is low."

    I eat a low carb high fat diet so my normal metabolism has a low glucose supply, therefore for me and plenty of others ketones are fuel! Also anybody fasting (does that count the normal fast we all take part in between our last food of the evening and the first food the following day?), will be using ketones as fuel.

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724.abstract?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=maratos-flier&fulltext=ketosis&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7554586
    So you're just intentionally ignoring the part where I specified that glucose needs to be unavailable?
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    At rest 70% of everyone's calorie burn is from fat.

    So fat is the preferred fuel at rest ?
    Also, too little glucose in the blood is just as harmful. The body doesn't burn glucose to regulate blood sugar levels. Blood sugar levels are regulated by insulin, which takes glucose out of the blood and stores it in muscle or the liver (and delivers to the other various organs that require glucose for proper functioning, like your spinal cord,) and glucagon, which tells your liver to release glucose back into your bloodstream to increase it.

    If there's excess glucose in the blood it's used as fuel, as the first stage response to getting rid of it. Insulin sensitivity of muscles switches them from running on free fatty acids to glucose etc etc. 2nd stage store as glycogen, 3rd stage store as fat - although the fat storage is usually a consequence of the body trying to get rid of the glucose and the digested fats being surplus to requirements.

    If elevated blood glucose wasn't a problem, diabetes wouldn't be an issue.
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
    Options
    No. Ketones are a product of fat oxidation. Ketones don't burn fat. Fat burning creates ketones. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to ask, because it's a question that doesn't really make sense.

    I was asking if you are talking about 70% of everyone's calorie burn coming from Ketones?
    And the answer to that is no, as that question doesn't make sense. It's like asking if a fire comes from the smoke. Completely backwards.

    So ketones aren't fuel?
    Ketones can be used in the citric acid cycle when glucose is unavailable. During normal metabolism, no, they are not fuel.
    Do you have any studies (peer reviewed) to support that claim?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24706027

    "Acetoacetate (AcAc) and 3-hydroxybutyrate (3HB), the two main ketone bodies of humans, are important vectors of energy transport from the liver to extrahepatic tissues, especially during fasting, when glucose supply is low."

    I eat a low carb high fat diet so my normal metabolism has a low glucose supply, therefore for me and plenty of others ketones are fuel! Also anybody fasting (does that count the normal fast we all take part in between our last food of the evening and the first food the following day?), will be using ketones as fuel.

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724.abstract?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=maratos-flier&fulltext=ketosis&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7554586
    So you're just intentionally ignoring the part where I specified that glucose needs to be unavailable?

    FYI - Unavailable is not the same as low.

    I keep my glucose levels low and not unavailable. Or are you just intentionally ignoring that part. :smile:
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
    Options
    No. Ketones are a product of fat oxidation. Ketones don't burn fat. Fat burning creates ketones. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to ask, because it's a question that doesn't really make sense.

    I was asking if you are talking about 70% of everyone's calorie burn coming from Ketones?
    And the answer to that is no, as that question doesn't make sense. It's like asking if a fire comes from the smoke. Completely backwards.

    So ketones aren't fuel?
    Ketones can be used in the citric acid cycle when glucose is unavailable. During normal metabolism, no, they are not fuel.
    Do you have any studies (peer reviewed) to support that claim?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24706027

    "Acetoacetate (AcAc) and 3-hydroxybutyrate (3HB), the two main ketone bodies of humans, are important vectors of energy transport from the liver to extrahepatic tissues, especially during fasting, when glucose supply is low."

    I eat a low carb high fat diet so my normal metabolism has a low glucose supply, therefore for me and plenty of others ketones are fuel! Also anybody fasting (does that count the normal fast we all take part in between our last food of the evening and the first food the following day?), will be using ketones as fuel.

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724.abstract?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=maratos-flier&fulltext=ketosis&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7554586
    So you're just intentionally ignoring the part where I specified that glucose needs to be unavailable?

    FYI - Unavailable is not the same as low.

    I keep my glucose levels low and not unavailable. Or are you just intentionally ignoring that part. :smile:
    And being at rest is not the same as being in ketosis. Which brings us back to the question you actually asked, and the answer is still no.
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
    Options
    No. Ketones are a product of fat oxidation. Ketones don't burn fat. Fat burning creates ketones. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to ask, because it's a question that doesn't really make sense.

    I was asking if you are talking about 70% of everyone's calorie burn coming from Ketones?
    And the answer to that is no, as that question doesn't make sense. It's like asking if a fire comes from the smoke. Completely backwards.

    So ketones aren't fuel?
    Ketones can be used in the citric acid cycle when glucose is unavailable. During normal metabolism, no, they are not fuel.
    Do you have any studies (peer reviewed) to support that claim?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24706027

    "Acetoacetate (AcAc) and 3-hydroxybutyrate (3HB), the two main ketone bodies of humans, are important vectors of energy transport from the liver to extrahepatic tissues, especially during fasting, when glucose supply is low."

    I eat a low carb high fat diet so my normal metabolism has a low glucose supply, therefore for me and plenty of others ketones are fuel! Also anybody fasting (does that count the normal fast we all take part in between our last food of the evening and the first food the following day?), will be using ketones as fuel.

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724.abstract?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=maratos-flier&fulltext=ketosis&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7554586
    So you're just intentionally ignoring the part where I specified that glucose needs to be unavailable?

    FYI - Unavailable is not the same as low.

    I keep my glucose levels low and not unavailable. Or are you just intentionally ignoring that part. :smile:
    And being at rest is not the same as being in ketosis. Which brings us back to the question you actually asked, and the answer is still no.

    So what you are saying is you can be in rest and in ketosis at the same time?

    lame deflect from your Low and Unavailable mix up by the way.

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