Ketosis and nutrient-intake
Replies
-
LOL, low carb propaganda
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/815108-fat-adaptation-theory-is-still-a-low-carb-fantasy
LOL, IIFYM propaganda0 -
ETA - I have always said that low carb, keto, IF, IIFYM, et al are just tools that someone uses to create a calorie deficit. My contention has always been that none of these tools are superior to the others, and I only have an issue when someone says "well I ate in a deficit and did not lose weight, but once I switched to low card the weight came off and calorie deficit does not work for me…"
At this point, that is my general view in all this.
If it works for you, then do it.
But if weight loss is your goal, you are in some form of deficit....
Yes you have to be in a deficit - low carb isn't magic (for weight loss it a convenient way to eat a deficit)0 -
LOL, low carb propaganda
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/815108-fat-adaptation-theory-is-still-a-low-carb-fantasy
LOL, IIFYM propaganda
How is that propaganda in favor of IIFYM?
I suppose this is also propaganda?
http://jap.physiology.org/content/100/1/70 -
Could be, as it's an Invited Editorial (8 years old, cited by 7) and has a confrontational title I suspect it probably is.0 -
Interesting study, but it doesn't mention endurance athletes and keto.
I think it's common knowledge that sprints and anaerobic activity require a higher level of carb feeding to replenish muscle glycogen.
And I believe that low carb endurance athletes accommodate this in their race tactics.0 -
it's well-understood by anyone that spends anytime researching cellular respiration that sustained ANAEROBIC effort requires glucose to fuel it.LOL, low carb propaganda
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/815108-fat-adaptation-theory-is-still-a-low-carb-fantasy
LOL, IIFYM propaganda
Whether you're running an ultra-marathon, cycling a century or just a weekend warrior, you will find yourself hitting anaerobic effort at times. Just because you target carbohydrate intake to correspond to that activity doesn't mean you aren't low-carb, nor does it mean you aren't still in ketosis. Anti-low-carb advocates fail to point that out.
If I want to take in 160g of carbohydrate during a 163km mountainous bike ride, I will. I'll also eat somewhere between 6,500 and 7,500 calories that day in total, so it's still under 10% of my dietary intake from carbohydrate.
For me, that 163km with 15,000 feet of climbing requires that much carbohydrate (4x 40g feeds during the ride), or I bonk. This doesn't mean I'm *NOT* low-carb (because let's be honest - 10% of caloric intake is ALWAYS low-carb), and it doesn't remotely come close to knocking me OUT of ketosis. By comparison, those riding with me will take in more than 5x that much carbohydrate.
You people that think eating ANY carbohydrate means you're NOT low-carb/ketogenic need to look up what a Targeted Ketogenic Diet is.
FYI - it's an opinion article, using only the evidence to support their side of the argument, instead of any opposing viewpoint (for which evidence DOES also exist.) It's certainly NOT a study. And it echoes what I've said above. Even low-carb athletes need glucose to fuel anaerobic activity. However, it doesn't mean they're NOT low-carb, nor does it knock them out of ketosis.0 -
it's well-understood by anyone that spends anytime researching cellular respiration that sustained ANAEROBIC effort requires glucose to fuel it.LOL, low carb propaganda
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/815108-fat-adaptation-theory-is-still-a-low-carb-fantasy
LOL, IIFYM propaganda
Whether you're running an ultra-marathon, cycling a century or just a weekend warrior, you will find yourself hitting anaerobic effort at times. Just because you target carbohydrate intake to correspond to that activity doesn't mean you aren't low-carb, nor does it mean you aren't still in ketosis. Anti-low-carb advocates fail to point that out.
If I want to take in 160g of carbohydrate during a 163km mountainous bike ride, I will. I'll also eat somewhere between 6,500 and 7,500 calories that day in total, so it's still under 10% of my dietary intake from carbohydrate.
For me, that 163km with 15,000 feet of climbing requires that much carbohydrate (4x 40g feeds during the ride), or I bonk. This doesn't mean I'm *NOT* low-carb (because let's be honest - 10% of caloric intake is ALWAYS low-carb), and it doesn't remotely come close to knocking me OUT of ketosis. By comparison, those riding with me will take in more than 5x that much carbohydrate.
You people that think eating ANY carbohydrate means you're NOT low-carb/ketogenic need to look up what a Targeted Ketogenic Diet is.
FYI - it's an opinion article, using only the evidence to support their side of the argument, instead of any opposing viewpoint (for which evidence DOES also exist.) It's certainly NOT a study. And it echoes what I've said above. Even low-carb athletes need glucose to fuel anaerobic activity. However, it doesn't mean they're NOT low-carb, nor does it knock them out of ketosis.
For the evidence for what did the studies show? Is some of this evidence the Phinney cyclist studies?0 -
There's several studies in addition to Finney:For the evidence for what did the studies show? Is some of this evidence the Phinney cyclist studies?
Lambert, et.al. showed "... that 2 weeks of adaptation to a high-fat diet would result in an enhanced resistance to fatigue and a significant sparing of endogenous carbohydrate during low to moderate intensity exercise in a relatively glycogen-depleted state and unimpaired performance during high intensity exercise."
Paoli, et.al. showed "...Despite concerns of coaches and doctors about the possible detrimental effects of low carbohydrate diets on athletic performance and the well known importance of carbohydrates there are no data about VLCKD and strength performance. The undeniable and sudden effect of VLCKD on fat loss may be useful for those athletes who compete in sports based on weight class. We have demonstrated that using VLCKD for a relatively short time period (i.e. 30 days) can decrease body weight and body fat without negative effects on strength performance in high level athletes."
It's true there's not a lot of studies either way, and none have been large-scale clinical trials. But there is enough both clinical research and anecdotal evidence to state that a targeted ketogenic diet will allow decent athletic performance for those that choose to use it for whatever reason (ie: my Type I diabetes). Could an athlete be competitive on <30g a day? No. Unequivocally NO. But with targeting proper amounts and timing their CHO intake for their exercise while remaining in ketosis... ? Absolutely.
BTW, the in the op.ed you linked to (not a clinical trial) the author actually referenced their own studies... multiple times ... Even so, if you READ the article itself, you'll see the state the SAME THING that I do, that performance is NOT impaired, with the exception of ANAEROBIC capacity. Which is why an athlete has to target CHO intake for anaerobic effort/performance.
BTW to declare one study (Phinney, et.al.) invalid because you are anti-low-carb and worship at the alter of Colpo (who leaves considerable information OUT of his blog pieces, and makes any assumption that will support his case) while referencing no science/research of your own is rather hypocritical and unscientific of you.
As has been mentioned by several people, you CAN be on a low-carb ketogenic diet AND target enough CHO intake to support anaerobic work and you're still a low-carb athlete. Anyone that eats only 10% of their calories in a given day from carbohydrate (whether they take in 50g or 150g of carbohydrate) is STILL a low-carb/ketogenic dieter AND is getting enough CHO to fuel their performance. Are you disputing this?0 -
You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!
How do you work that out, Einstein ? Didn't seem to work for the carb eaters around and behind me.
20 mins would have put me in about 20th position out of 350, amongst club runners. Given I've only done any running in the last 2 years and am very non-athletic your suggestion is delusional.
No need for sarcasm! Open your mind and try it.
I did low carb for the whole of my 30s and couldn't get out of my aerobic zones 1-3 without horrible bonking.
I started carbed running in August 2012.
Add education, focus, 18 months of training and I'm subbing 21 mins.
I'm 43 with various health adversities.
I am potentially able to hit 18.5 m
You could too.
Each to his own. I've got killer competitiveness, and I ain't using fat and protein to realise my goals. Maybe for a nice long jog or bike ride to work....
I'm not putting you down but I have a very real personal resentment against the low carb illusion, it's horrible.0 -
You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!
How do you work that out, Einstein ? Didn't seem to work for the carb eaters around and behind me.
20 mins would have put me in about 20th position out of 350, amongst club runners. Given I've only done any running in the last 2 years and am very non-athletic your suggestion is delusional.
No need for sarcasm! Open your mind and try it.
I did low carb for the whole of my 30s and couldn't get out of my aerobic zones 1-3 without horrible bonking.
I started carbed running in August 2012.
Add education, focus, 18 months of training and I'm subbing 21 mins.
I'm 43 with various health adversities.
I am potentially able to hit 18.5 m
You could too.
Each to his own. I've got killer competitiveness, and I ain't using fat and protein to realise my goals. Maybe for a nice long jog or bike ride to work....
I'm not putting you down but I have a very real personal resentment against the low carb illusion, it's horrible.
But that was your experience, not everyone will be the same.
Some will thrive on low carb some won't.
Some will thrive on high carb some won't.
Surely we all understand that?0 -
You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!
How do you work that out, Einstein ? Didn't seem to work for the carb eaters around and behind me.
20 mins would have put me in about 20th position out of 350, amongst club runners. Given I've only done any running in the last 2 years and am very non-athletic your suggestion is delusional.
No need for sarcasm! Open your mind and try it.
I did low carb for the whole of my 30s and couldn't get out of my aerobic zones 1-3 without horrible bonking.
I started carbed running in August 2012.
Add education, focus, 18 months of training and I'm subbing 21 mins.
I'm 43 with various health adversities.
I am potentially able to hit 18.5 m
You could too.
Each to his own. I've got killer competitiveness, and I ain't using fat and protein to realise my goals. Maybe for a nice long jog or bike ride to work....
I'm not putting you down but I have a very real personal resentment against the low carb illusion, it's horrible.
But that was your experience, not everyone will be the same.
Some will thrive on low carb some won't.
Some will thrive on high carb some won't.
Surely we all understand that?
Maybe in your mind we all 'understand that'
Most athletes I know just don't do low carb.
I think it's agreed that under threshold long endurance can be suited to keto/low carb.
You really got to push your aerobic capacity to it's max and avoid power, over threshold to train your body to be a keto adapted athlete. Suits ironmen types. Even they admit to using gels etc, it's been stated already.
It's not me. Let's talk about over lactate threshold athletes that do keto. Seriously, I'm up for learning. I just think it's silly to make your body do the extra work of breaking down body tissue to fuel itself, and be limited with power and speed.0 -
You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!
How do you work that out, Einstein ? Didn't seem to work for the carb eaters around and behind me.
20 mins would have put me in about 20th position out of 350, amongst club runners. Given I've only done any running in the last 2 years and am very non-athletic your suggestion is delusional.
No need for sarcasm! Open your mind and try it.
I did low carb for the whole of my 30s and couldn't get out of my aerobic zones 1-3 without horrible bonking.
I started carbed running in August 2012.
Add education, focus, 18 months of training and I'm subbing 21 mins.
I'm 43 with various health adversities.
I am potentially able to hit 18.5 m
You could too.
Each to his own. I've got killer competitiveness, and I ain't using fat and protein to realise my goals. Maybe for a nice long jog or bike ride to work....
I'm not putting you down but I have a very real personal resentment against the low carb illusion, it's horrible.
But that was your experience, not everyone will be the same.
Some will thrive on low carb some won't.
Some will thrive on high carb some won't.
Surely we all understand that?
Maybe in your mind we all 'understand that'
Most athletes I know just don't do low carb.
I think it's agreed that under threshold long endurance can be suited to keto/low carb.
You really got to push your aerobic capacity to it's max and avoid power, over threshold to train your body to be a keto adapted athlete. Suits ironmen types. Even they admit to using gels etc, it's been stated already.
It's not me. Let's talk about over lactate threshold athletes that do keto. Seriously, I'm up for learning. I just think it's silly to make your body do the extra work of breaking down body tissue to fuel itself, and be limited with power and speed.
I think that the training and build up to race days for endurance athletes is starting to change (with some not all).
Unlike the old days more and more athletes are exerting less energy on every training day and picking and choosing fewer days to really go hard.
But on those hard hard training days and race days carbing up to fuel anaerobic and high effort out put - but by proper carb timing ensuring they are not dropping out of keto.
It probably is a low ratio low carb to high carb - but it is becoming more popular. Whether or not that continues - who knows?
I think the main think is some athletes find it works better for them, some don't.0 -
You could do the 5k under 20 mins if you carbed!
How do you work that out, Einstein ? Didn't seem to work for the carb eaters around and behind me.
20 mins would have put me in about 20th position out of 350, amongst club runners. Given I've only done any running in the last 2 years and am very non-athletic your suggestion is delusional.
No need for sarcasm! Open your mind and try it.
I did low carb for the whole of my 30s and couldn't get out of my aerobic zones 1-3 without horrible bonking.
I started carbed running in August 2012.
Add education, focus, 18 months of training and I'm subbing 21 mins.
I'm 43 with various health adversities.
I am potentially able to hit 18.5 m
You could too.
Each to his own. I've got killer competitiveness, and I ain't using fat and protein to realise my goals. Maybe for a nice long jog or bike ride to work....
I'm not putting you down but I have a very real personal resentment against the low carb illusion, it's horrible.
But that was your experience, not everyone will be the same.
Some will thrive on low carb some won't.
Some will thrive on high carb some won't.
Surely we all understand that?
Maybe in your mind we all 'understand that'
Most athletes I know just don't do low carb.
I think it's agreed that under threshold long endurance can be suited to keto/low carb.
You really got to push your aerobic capacity to it's max and avoid power, over threshold to train your body to be a keto adapted athlete. Suits ironmen types. Even they admit to using gels etc, it's been stated already.
It's not me. Let's talk about over lactate threshold athletes that do keto. Seriously, I'm up for learning. I just think it's silly to make your body do the extra work of breaking down body tissue to fuel itself, and be limited with power and speed.
I think that the training and build up to race days for endurance athletes is starting to change (with some not all).
Unlike the old days more and more athletes are exerting less energy on every training day and picking and choosing fewer days to really go hard.
But on those hard hard training days and race days carbing up to fuel anaerobic and high effort out put - but by proper carb timing ensuring they are not dropping out of keto.
It probably is a low ratio low carb to high carb - but it is becoming more popular. Whether or not that continues - who knows?
I think the main think is some athletes find it works better for them, some don't.
Yes it's more 80/20 but the 80 days are still hard. The 20% is well up in 90-95% max HR I believe. So it's ok to come out of keto then? And what if you don't want to burn body fat?
It's an interesting experiment but why run on diesel when you can get high octane for less money and less effort?
What a load of work to make your bike lighter by not carrying a couple of gels lol! I don't get it!
Food bills gotta sting too!0 -
From what I can see, whether or not to choose keto as an athlete depends greatly on the event, and the individual.I think that the training and build up to race days for endurance athletes is starting to change (with some not all).
Unlike the old days more and more athletes are exerting less energy on every training day and picking and choosing fewer days to really go hard.
But on those hard hard training days and race days carbing up to fuel anaerobic and high effort out put - but by proper carb timing ensuring they are not dropping out of keto.
It probably is a low ratio low carb to high carb - but it is becoming more popular. Whether or not that continues - who knows?
I think the main think is some athletes find it works better for them, some don't.
Yes it's more 80/20 but the 80 days are still hard. The 20% is well up in 90-95% max HR I believe. So it's ok to come out of keto then? And what if you don't want to burn body fat?
It's an interesting experiment but why run on diesel when you can get high octane for less money and less effort?
What a load of work to make your bike lighter by not carrying a couple of gels lol! I don't get it!
Food bills gotta sting too!
I know some people that literally get nauseous taking gels, glucose drinks, etc. which doesn't do them well in a race... But I strongly believe they're in the small minority.
For those in the ultra-endurance world (regardless of event type) where the vast majority of the event is at sub-maximal output, I think being keto/fat-adapted could offer a great advantage - *IF* they find (with their own testing in advance of the event) that the diet doesn't impair their performance in the first place ...
The annoying thing is there are studies that shows it improves performance, studies that conclude it makes no difference, and studies that show that it impairs performance. There's no consistency which means it seems highly dependent upon the individual and/or their sport.
For the ultra-endurance athletes though, if their even includes hills, sprints, etc., then they have to be a little more calculating with how to handle that, because those efforts CAN require either glycogen stores or circulating glucose to fuel, depending on the length/amount of the effort involved. Getting passed on the hill climb to the finish because you have no fuel SUCKS.
For the non-endurance athlete, I truly do not see any advantage to a ketogenic diet, nor does science show any that I've seen. So unless you've a medical reason to adopt it as an non-endurance athlete, you likely shouldn't even flirt with the idea.
I personally think if you've adopted a ketogenic diet for medical reasons, and you're a competitive athlete, you MUST look into a TARGETED ketogenic diet, or you simply will NOT remain competitive.
Of course, some people aren't overly motivated to "compete", but instead just enjoy the exercise. For those, I say enjoy it on whatever diet you feel happy with, as long as it gives you proper nutrition.0 -
First, done properly a ketogenic diet is fully-balanced with all the nutrients one needs.I have a serious question about this - what happens if and when you resume a fully balanced diet?
That being said, if you maintain a caloric balance (neither a surplus nor deficit) you'll gain back some water weight as your glycogen stores replenish. That's it.
*IF* you resume over-eating, you'll gain weight. The people who say "you gain all the weight back" are referring to those who over-eat when they go "off" their diet. And that's 90% of dieters REGARDLESS of the type of diet they choose.
Thank you. This makes sense. Thanks to everyone else who answered me too.
0 -
From what I can see, whether or not to choose keto as an athlete depends greatly on the event, and the individual.I think that the training and build up to race days for endurance athletes is starting to change (with some not all).
Unlike the old days more and more athletes are exerting less energy on every training day and picking and choosing fewer days to really go hard.
But on those hard hard training days and race days carbing up to fuel anaerobic and high effort out put - but by proper carb timing ensuring they are not dropping out of keto.
It probably is a low ratio low carb to high carb - but it is becoming more popular. Whether or not that continues - who knows?
I think the main think is some athletes find it works better for them, some don't.
Yes it's more 80/20 but the 80 days are still hard. The 20% is well up in 90-95% max HR I believe. So it's ok to come out of keto then? And what if you don't want to burn body fat?
It's an interesting experiment but why run on diesel when you can get high octane for less money and less effort?
What a load of work to make your bike lighter by not carrying a couple of gels lol! I don't get it!
Food bills gotta sting too!
I know some people that literally get nauseous taking gels, glucose drinks, etc. which doesn't do them well in a race... But I strongly believe they're in the small minority.
For those in the ultra-endurance world (regardless of event type) where the vast majority of the event is at sub-maximal output, I think being keto/fat-adapted could offer a great advantage - *IF* they find (with their own testing in advance of the event) that the diet doesn't impair their performance in the first place ...
The annoying thing is there are studies that shows it improves performance, studies that conclude it makes no difference, and studies that show that it impairs performance. There's no consistency which means it seems highly dependent upon the individual and/or their sport.
For the ultra-endurance athletes though, if their even includes hills, sprints, etc., then they have to be a little more calculating with how to handle that, because those efforts CAN require either glycogen stores or circulating glucose to fuel, depending on the length/amount of the effort involved. Getting passed on the hill climb to the finish because you have no fuel SUCKS.
For the non-endurance athlete, I truly do not see any advantage to a ketogenic diet, nor does science show any that I've seen. So unless you've a medical reason to adopt it as an non-endurance athlete, you likely shouldn't even flirt with the idea.
I personally think if you've adopted a ketogenic diet for medical reasons, and you're a competitive athlete, you MUST look into a TARGETED ketogenic diet, or you simply will NOT remain competitive.
Of course, some people aren't overly motivated to "compete", but instead just enjoy the exercise. For those, I say enjoy it on whatever diet you feel happy with, as long as it gives you proper nutrition.
Joe Friel, the well known triathlete coach advocates not only a periodization pattern for the training, but one for the nutrition as well.
He thinks it a good idea to train the body to be more keto adapted and body fat burning in the early part of the training season, while you are building up your aerobic base.
As the intensity and volume increases, the carbs and glycogen/glucose burning really becomes the icing on the cake for power, strength and sprints.
So your carb intake increases as needs must. It's something I'm trying this year, my macros have been changing since my bulky winter. I wasn't that impressed with the progress I made on my aerobic base, but I never hit anywhere near low enough carbs to keto adapt, so it may have been pointless,but I am going to try a few years (rounds) and keep notes. (shame I'm getting older, but I only started training 2 years ago, so i figure I have a 7 year window before I start slowing or stagnating, wearing my parts out!)0 -
Can you tell me where you got this graph please yarwell?0
-
you guys relies Dr Jacob Wilson just did a very controlled proper study on ketogenic vs carbohydrate in trained lifters, ketogenic side lost 4x as much fat while gaining muscle carbohydrate gained abit more muscle ( which may just be glycogen/intramuscular water) since ultra sound measuring would pick that up as size, he gave the results on a podcast yesterday, fitness community is in for a shock , ketogenic diet indeed burns more fat, and want to know the kicker, every male in the keto groups testosterone went up over 100 ng/dl , this will be published data. this is in TRAINED lifters too, very controlled go find the podcast. very interesting stuff, the ketogenic group complained of being flat though, but thats just glycogen depeleted and Jacob uses dexa scanners ect, so the keto group truly lost 4x as much FAT then the carb group. gg 0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 426 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions