WHAT does the TDEE even include?

IdcShrimp

I just started using Pacer, a pedometer app, and today it told me I took 3375 steps, and burned 58 cals. Now, do those 58 cals count as exercise calories and would I add them to my TDEE, or does the TDEE already take those into account?

I'm assuming, since my BMR is about 1118 and my TDEE is about 1337, that those 58 calories are part of my TDEE and not additional.

The only issue is I'm very freaked out because I eat my TDEE or more every day without exercising at all. And apparently today, I really only burned 58 stupid calories. AND that's my active day of the week. So have I been eating way too much at 1337 lately?

Cause, wouldn't my TDEE then be 1118+58? Which would actually be only a mere 1176!?

The app is called Pacer and it supposedly takes into account my steps only...so would this not include my fidgeting, laughing, talking, etc, which would be where the rest of my TDEE would come in? Cause what's left with my TDEE would be 161 calories! That's a lot to overeat every day! I don't want to gain any insidious, slow moving weight. I've been eating too much chocolate, etc. lately (like one or two a day for a month plus other gross treats) and don't want to gain weight THAT way, not ANY way.

So I wanna know...is my TDEE my safety net for this thing? What does my TDEE even include? Those 58 cals? Those 161 cals would be burned elsewhere aside from my walking and breathing? HELP

Brooke4206

I am doubting that your TDEE is that low to begin with. TDEE calculates any form of exercise that you do. I wouldn't consider the steps exercise though. I'd re-evaluate your TDEE.

sijomial

You are confused and your questions are confusing!

Have a read of this to understand TDEE:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/819055-setting-your-calorie-and-macro-targets

More importantly you say your have been eating 1337 cals... Has your weight stayed the same? Gone up or down?

IdcShrimp

yo! sorry it is confusing.

i am literally almost a midget lol, my doctors know i'm quite small...i think for a while there I was a nationally-recognized, legal 'little person' (and i don't mean to offend people because i am really this short), so my TDEE/BMR have always appeared startlingly low. additionally, I'm at a computer all day and don't drive, so i'm taking a train and sitting all day, no exercise. very low-cal for that reason. but i aim to maintain.

i can't really tell if i've maintained. its been about 4 months since i began to eat at 1337 and i have gained 1 pound, but I don't know if that is water weight or a daily fluctuation. my weight always changed every morning. back then (4 months ago) id wake up one day 3 pounds heavier then be two lighter the next day at the same time. so i counted it as sodium or water weight and think i've maintained ok, maybe within 2 pounds.

TeaBea

I just started using Pacer, a pedometer app, and today it told me I took 3375 steps, and burned 58 cals. Now, do those 58 cals count as exercise calories and would I add them to my TDEE, or does the TDEE already take those into account?

I'm assuming, since my BMR is about 1118 and my TDEE is about 1337, that those 58 calories are part of my TDEE and not additional.

The only issue is I'm very freaked out because I eat my TDEE or more every day without exercising at all. And apparently today, I really only burned 58 stupid calories. AND that's my active day of the week. So have I been eating way too much at 1337 lately?

Cause, wouldn't my TDEE then be 1118+58? Which would actually be only a mere 1176!?

The app is called Pacer and it supposedly takes into account my steps only...so would this not include my fidgeting, laughing, talking, etc, which would be where the rest of my TDEE would come in? Cause what's left with my TDEE would be 161 calories! That's a lot to overeat every day! I don't want to gain any insidious, slow moving weight. I've been eating too much chocolate, etc. lately (like one or two a day for a month plus other gross treats) and don't want to gain weight THAT way, not ANY way.

So I wanna know...is my TDEE my safety net for this thing? What does my TDEE even include? Those 58 cals? Those 161 cals would be burned elsewhere aside from my walking and breathing? HELP

BMR is you laying around in bed all day.

Activity level is you sitting up, occasionally going to the bathroom, laughing...whatever. Even sedentary people get additional calories above BMR

TDEE - total daily energy expenditure is BMR + Activity Level + exercise. This is maintenance.

Personally I wouldn't count general pedometer steps as exercise. Many more calories are burned when walking at a fast pace. The cardio benefit is there if you are really pushing it (swinging your arms, etc) .....Use the pedometer (instead) to guage your activity level.

<5000 steps/day may be used as a sedentary lifestyle
5000-7499 steps/day is typical of daily activity might be considered low active
7500-9999 likely includes some volitional activities considered somewhat active
10,000 steps/day indicates the point that should be used to classify individuals as active
>12500 steps/day are likely to be classified as highly active

Now - if you have a BMR of 1118 .....that's 47 calories an hour doing nothing. If you walked for 58 calories....some of those have been accounted for in BMR. That's why it's so important not to log everything as exercise. Be conservative with logging. If you feel run down or tired.... you aren't eating enough.

MFP gives you additional calories for activity level....they don't give you any for exercise.....until you log it. MFP exercise calories are fairly generous.

Beckilovespizza

I am doubting that your TDEE is that low to begin with. TDEE calculates any form of exercise that you do. I wouldn't consider the steps exercise though. I'd re-evaluate your TDEE.

The tdee might be that low, mine is 1331 taking as averages from a couple of sites. It's because I'm short and already quite light and pretty inactive!

sijomial

yo! sorry it is confusing.

i am literally almost a midget lol, my doctors know i'm quite small...i think for a while there I was a nationally-recognized, legal 'little person' (and i don't mean to offend people because i am really this short), so my TDEE/BMR have always appeared startlingly low. additionally, I'm at a computer all day and don't drive, so i'm taking a train and sitting all day, no exercise. very low-cal for that reason. but i aim to maintain.

i can't really tell if i've maintained. its been about 4 months since i began to eat at 1337 and i have gained 1 pound, but I don't know if that is water weight or a daily fluctuation. my weight always changed every morning. back then (4 months ago) id wake up one day 3 pounds heavier then be two lighter the next day at the same time. so i counted it as sodium or water weight and think i've maintained ok, maybe within 2 pounds.

Congratulations!
You have found your correct intake and you are maintaining.

Beckilovespizza

I just started using Pacer, a pedometer app, and today it told me I took 3375 steps, and burned 58 cals. Now, do those 58 cals count as exercise calories and would I add them to my TDEE, or does the TDEE already take those into account?

I'm assuming, since my BMR is about 1118 and my TDEE is about 1337, that those 58 calories are part of my TDEE and not additional.

The only issue is I'm very freaked out because I eat my TDEE or more every day without exercising at all. And apparently today, I really only burned 58 stupid calories. AND that's my active day of the week. So have I been eating way too much at 1337 lately?

Cause, wouldn't my TDEE then be 1118+58? Which would actually be only a mere 1176!?

The app is called Pacer and it supposedly takes into account my steps only...so would this not include my fidgeting, laughing, talking, etc, which would be where the rest of my TDEE would come in? Cause what's left with my TDEE would be 161 calories! That's a lot to overeat every day! I don't want to gain any insidious, slow moving weight. I've been eating too much chocolate, etc. lately (like one or two a day for a month plus other gross treats) and don't want to gain weight THAT way, not ANY way.

So I wanna know...is my TDEE my safety net for this thing? What does my TDEE even include? Those 58 cals? Those 161 cals would be burned elsewhere aside from my walking and breathing? HELP

BMR is you laying around in bed all day.

Activity level is you sitting up, occasionally going to the bathroom, laughing...whatever. Even sedentary people get additional calories above BMR

TDEE - total daily energy expenditure is BMR + Activity Level + exercise. This is maintenance.

Personally I wouldn't count general pedometer steps as exercise. Many more calories are burned when walking at a fast pace. The cardio benefit is there if you are really pushing it (swinging your arms, etc) .....Use the pedometer (instead) to guage your activity level.

<5000 steps/day may be used as a sedentary lifestyle
5000-7499 steps/day is typical of daily activity might be considered low active
7500-9999 likely includes some volitional activities considered somewhat active
10,000 steps/day indicates the point that should be used to classify individuals as active
>12500 steps/day are likely to be classified as highly active

Now - if you have a BMR of 1118 .....that's 47 calories an hour doing nothing. If you walked for 58 calories....some of those have been accounted for in BMR. That's why it's so important not to log everything as exercise. Be conservative with logging. If you feel run down or tired.... you aren't eating enough.

MFP gives you additional calories for activity level....they don't give you any for exercise.....until you log it. MFP exercise calories are fairly generous.

This is very useful! Thank u

IdcShrimp

ok, so are you saying that my 58 calories in today's 'exercise' really is the amount i burn all day aside from my BMR? I'm asking if my real TDEE is thus 58+1118.

IdcShrimp

I am doubting that your TDEE is that low to begin with. TDEE calculates any form of exercise that you do. I wouldn't consider the steps exercise though. I'd re-evaluate your TDEE.

The tdee might be that low, mine is 1331 taking as averages from a couple of sites. It's because I'm short and already quite light and pretty inactive!

Lol a fellow shorty! I feel ya, girl

AllOutof_Bubblegum

.

IdcShrimp

you really think so? wouldn't that mean if I kept eating this supposed extra surplus of calories everyday I would keep gaining weight? or would I, in turn, maintain because my weight would be so marginally heavier that my metabolism would thus increase and cause me to maintain if i kept it here. i mean, i think i look OK right now. i just don't want to KEEP gaining.

KingRat79

people get way to hung up on trying to work out there TDEE and BMr, the fact is that it will fluctuate each day and your never going to be able to measure it accurately tre are just to many variables.

Set a calorie goal and eat that amount of calories for 2 weeks. If after two weeks you have gained weight you are eating above your TDEE if you have lost weight you are eating below it. if you loose more then a pound then increase what you are eating, if you gain weight then decrease what you are eating . Then keep repeatingthis cycle

IdcShrimp

You've gotten ample feedback already, why are you continuing to ask?

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1274216-how-the-hell-does-the-tdee-count

because I'm apparently still confused...any reason why you're angry?

IdcShrimp

people get way to hung up on trying to work out there TDEE and BMr, the fact is that it will fluctuate each day and your never going to be able to measure it accurately tre are just to many variables.

Set a calorie goal and eat that amount of calories for 2 weeks. If after two weeks you have gained weight you are eating above your TDEE if you have lost weight you are eating below it. if you loose more then a pound then increase what you are eating, if you gain weight then decrease what you are eating . Then keep repeatingthis cycle

hey...good advice but I want your opinion, too...I've eaten like this for, i dunno, 4 months now and gained 1-2 pounds. would you call that maintaining? what if i eat like this and keep gaining? don't want that.

Beckilovespizza

ok, so are you saying that my 58 calories in today's 'exercise' really is the amount i burn all day aside from my BMR? I'm asking if my real TDEE is thus 58+1118.

Ur BMR is literally what is needed to keep u alive if u laid in bed all day. I'm not expert but from what I understand with tdee is if u put sedentary would take into consideration stuff like working a desk job, walking around a little, making food, walking to the loo etc, just everyday stuff. There are other levels of tdee to chose from which take into consideration other types of work such as construction which obv burns more cals than a desk job and whether u work out and the amount per week etc.

And yes, it sucks being short, I would have thought with maintenance I could eat a bit more but apparently not...

IdcShrimp

ok, so are you saying that my 58 calories in today's 'exercise' really is the amount i burn all day aside from my BMR? I'm asking if my real TDEE is thus 58+1118.

Ur BMR is literally what is needed to keep u alive if u laid in bed all day. I'm not expert but from what I understand with tdee is if u put sedentary would take into consideration stuff like working a desk job, walking around a little, making food, walking to the loo etc, just everyday stuff. There are other levels of tdee to chose from which take into consideration other types of work such as construction which obv burns more cals than a desk job and whether u work out and the amount per week etc.

And yes, it sucks being short, I would have thought with maintenance I could eat a bit more but apparently not...

yeah i understand how you feel. you mentioned the working a desk job and whatnot...what I'm asking is are those 58 calories i am obsessing over part of that desk job? is that what they mean?

sijomial

people get way to hung up on trying to work out there TDEE and BMr, the fact is that it will fluctuate each day and your never going to be able to measure it accurately tre are just to many variables.

Set a calorie goal and eat that amount of calories for 2 weeks. If after two weeks you have gained weight you are eating above your TDEE if you have lost weight you are eating below it. if you loose more then a pound then increase what you are eating, if you gain weight then decrease what you are eating . Then keep repeatingthis cycle

hey...good advice but I want your opinion, too...I've eaten like this for, i dunno, 4 months now and gained 1-2 pounds. would you call that maintaining? what if i eat like this and keep gaining? don't want that.

What is this anxiety all about?
You have said your weight has been within one pound for four months - so you know your maintenance calories.

Let's say you continue for another four months and gain another whole pound, you would just have to take off in the region of 30 cals a day.

No-one can actually maintain their weight any more accurately than that! One pound is the equivalent of a large glass of water.

Keep calm and carry on!

stealthq

Edited - NM, already said better above.

Beckilovespizza

ok, so are you saying that my 58 calories in today's 'exercise' really is the amount i burn all day aside from my BMR? I'm asking if my real TDEE is thus 58+1118.

Ur BMR is literally what is needed to keep u alive if u laid in bed all day. I'm not expert but from what I understand with tdee is if u put sedentary would take into consideration stuff like working a desk job, walking around a little, making food, walking to the loo etc, just everyday stuff. There are other levels of tdee to chose from which take into consideration other types of work such as construction which obv burns more cals than a desk job and whether u work out and the amount per week etc.

And yes, it sucks being short, I would have thought with maintenance I could eat a bit more but apparently not...

yeah i understand how you feel. you mentioned the working a desk job and whatnot...what I'm asking is are those 58 calories i am obsessing over part of that desk job? is that what they mean?

Yes, I would think those 58cals are probably part of ur tdee. Like I said I'm no expert but personally I wouldn't count them as extra.

IdcShrimp

people get way to hung up on trying to work out there TDEE and BMr, the fact is that it will fluctuate each day and your never going to be able to measure it accurately tre are just to many variables.

Set a calorie goal and eat that amount of calories for 2 weeks. If after two weeks you have gained weight you are eating above your TDEE if you have lost weight you are eating below it. if you loose more then a pound then increase what you are eating, if you gain weight then decrease what you are eating . Then keep repeatingthis cycle

hey...good advice but I want your opinion, too...I've eaten like this for, i dunno, 4 months now and gained 1-2 pounds. would you call that maintaining? what if i eat like this and keep gaining? don't want that.

What is this anxiety all about?
You have said your weight has been within one pound for four months - so you know your maintenance calories.

Let's say you continue for another four months and gain another whole pound, you would just have to take off in the region of 30 cals a day.

No-one can actually maintain their weight any more accurately than that! One pound is the equivalent of a large glass of water.

Keep calm and carry on!

I dunno dude i've just had a really tough time with diet and nutrition my entire life and am finally freeing myself from the old ways of my family. i've suffered surgeries in the past because of inadequate nutrition (developed kidney stones at 7 and they lasted till i was 10) and i was even morbidly obese, i had high cholesterol when i was freaking 15....doctor embarrassed me for it...i just want to maintain, it took me so many years to get here. it would devastate me to gain again, even if it was a few more pounds, because that would insinuate an overall loss of control and i wouldn't know how to maintain from there. one last question...PLEASE DONT GET MAD CAUSE IM STILL CONFUSED!! please!

do you agree (because i still am not getting this answer from you guys) that my actual TDEE is those 58 cals + 1118 cals (1118 being my BMR)? Or do those 58 cals only account for a very small percentage of the calories i actually burn moving per day? a pedometer can only tell me about walking, not all the other stuff, right? so that was only a small PART of my TDEE added calories?

also will my weight gain plateau from here and i will not gain any more than i already have because my metabolism is higher when i weigh more?

IdcShrimp

ok, so are you saying that my 58 calories in today's 'exercise' really is the amount i burn all day aside from my BMR? I'm asking if my real TDEE is thus 58+1118.

Ur BMR is literally what is needed to keep u alive if u laid in bed all day. I'm not expert but from what I understand with tdee is if u put sedentary would take into consideration stuff like working a desk job, walking around a little, making food, walking to the loo etc, just everyday stuff. There are other levels of tdee to chose from which take into consideration other types of work such as construction which obv burns more cals than a desk job and whether u work out and the amount per week etc.

And yes, it sucks being short, I would have thought with maintenance I could eat a bit more but apparently not...

yeah i understand how you feel. you mentioned the working a desk job and whatnot...what I'm asking is are those 58 calories i am obsessing over part of that desk job? is that what they mean?

Yes, I would think those 58cals are probably part of ur tdee. Like I said I'm no expert but personally I wouldn't count them as extra.

so just PART of my TDEE or the whole extra thing?

Beckilovespizza

ok, so are you saying that my 58 calories in today's 'exercise' really is the amount i burn all day aside from my BMR? I'm asking if my real TDEE is thus 58+1118.

Ur BMR is literally what is needed to keep u alive if u laid in bed all day. I'm not expert but from what I understand with tdee is if u put sedentary would take into consideration stuff like working a desk job, walking around a little, making food, walking to the loo etc, just everyday stuff. There are other levels of tdee to chose from which take into consideration other types of work such as construction which obv burns more cals than a desk job and whether u work out and the amount per week etc.

And yes, it sucks being short, I would have thought with maintenance I could eat a bit more but apparently not...

yeah i understand how you feel. you mentioned the working a desk job and whatnot...what I'm asking is are those 58 calories i am obsessing over part of that desk job? is that what they mean?

Yes, I would think those 58cals are probably part of ur tdee. Like I said I'm no expert but personally I wouldn't count them as extra.

so just PART of my TDEE or the whole extra thing?

I don't know, soz but I give up and don't want to give u wrong info. I would think it is part of ur tdee as it is a pedometer I think it would only track steps. U would burn small cals doing things like laughing, making food etc. but they all add up to create ur tdee. I'm pretty sure those 58 cals are part of the bigger picture. Sorry I can't be more accurate and confident with my answers.

sijomial

Your TDEE is 1337.
It doesn't matter if it's a+b+c or x+y+z
Forget where those 58 cals fit as it just plain doesn't matter and is just adding to your anxiety.

Your TDEE is 1337 because that is what you have been eating to maintain your weight. It really is that simple.

richardheath

people get way to hung up on trying to work out there TDEE and BMr, the fact is that it will fluctuate each day and your never going to be able to measure it accurately tre are just to many variables.

Set a calorie goal and eat that amount of calories for 2 weeks. If after two weeks you have gained weight you are eating above your TDEE if you have lost weight you are eating below it. if you loose more then a pound then increase what you are eating, if you gain weight then decrease what you are eating . Then keep repeatingthis cycle

hey...good advice but I want your opinion, too...I've eaten like this for, i dunno, 4 months now and gained 1-2 pounds. would you call that maintaining? what if i eat like this and keep gaining? don't want that.

If you have gained 2 lbs of fat over the last 4 months, that means you have gained (on average) 2/16 = 0.125 lb a week.

It takes ~ 3500 calories to add a pound of fat.

0.125 lbs of fat is then = 0.125 * 3500 = 438 calories per week (or about 63 per day) above however many calories you need to maintain your weight.

So, if you have been logging and know that you have averaged 1377 per day, your true current maintenance level (or your TDEE, if you prefer) is 1377 - 63 = 1314 calories per day.


NOTE: I have assumed, for this, that the 2 lb gain is 100 % fat. If any of it is water, then obviously your actual fat gain is less. If its only 1 lb over this time, then you have only been 30-ish calories per day high. 0.5 lb fat, and you are only up by 15 cals per day!

NOTE 2: these numbers only works if you know you have actually averaged 1377 calories per day.

NOTE 3: 1-2 lb per 4 months is pretty damn close to maintaining, even if it is all fat! Congratulations!


Bottom line here seems to be that if you truly gained 1-2 lb of fat over 4 months you are very slightly over your TDEE (maintenance calorie level). But small overages can add up over time. To halt/reverse the gain, you need to eat very slightly less per day, or add a small amount of EXTRA exercise per day. If you move a bit more than you were doing these past 4 months, you will raise your TDEE by that amount, meaning you could eat the same and lose that tiny gain.

TDEE is total daily energy expenditure, so if you exercise/move more, you expend more energy, and your TDEE increases.

If you are maintaining your weight, you are at your TDEE, by definition. All any calculator will do is give you an estimate: real world results trump calculators.

Eat below TDEE you lose weight; eat above, you gain weight.

IdcShrimp

thanks for ur help ^

i'm still confused -_- not ur fault, though, anyone know the answer?

richardheath

I just started using Pacer, a pedometer app, and today it told me I took 3375 steps, and burned 58 cals. Now, do those 58 cals count as exercise calories and would I add them to my TDEE, or does the TDEE already take those into account?

Ooops - meant to address this bit too.

If those steps are part of your normal daily activity (i.e. if those are the normal steps you take getting to and from work etc) then this is already part of your current TDEE.

If these are 3375 steps you added to your normal routine, then these steps will become part of your new TDEE.

Note: TDEE will not be the same everyday. If you normally walk 5 miles uphill both ways to the market every Saturday, your TDEE will be higher than on Sunday when you laze around in your PJ's reading the funnies. Look long term though, and average it out over a week or so.

IdcShrimp

people get way to hung up on trying to work out there TDEE and BMr, the fact is that it will fluctuate each day and your never going to be able to measure it accurately tre are just to many variables.

Set a calorie goal and eat that amount of calories for 2 weeks. If after two weeks you have gained weight you are eating above your TDEE if you have lost weight you are eating below it. if you loose more then a pound then increase what you are eating, if you gain weight then decrease what you are eating . Then keep repeatingthis cycle

hey...good advice but I want your opinion, too...I've eaten like this for, i dunno, 4 months now and gained 1-2 pounds. would you call that maintaining? what if i eat like this and keep gaining? don't want that.

If you have gained 2 lbs of fat over the last 4 months, that means you have gained (on average) 2/16 = 0.125 lb a week.

It takes ~ 3500 calories to add a pound of fat.

0.125 lbs of fat is then = 0.125 * 3500 = 438 calories per week (or about 63 per day) above however many calories you need to maintain your weight.

So, if you have been logging and know that you have averaged 1377 per day, your true current maintenance level (or your TDEE, if you prefer) is 1377 - 63 = 1314 calories per day.


NOTE: I have assumed, for this, that the 2 lb gain is 100 % fat. If any of it is water, then obviously your actual fat gain is less. If its only 1 lb over this time, then you have only been 30-ish calories per day high. 0.5 lb fat, and you are only up by 15 cals per day!

NOTE 2: these numbers only works if you know you have actually averaged 1377 calories per day.

NOTE 3: 1-2 lb per 4 months is pretty damn close to maintaining, even if it is all fat! Congratulations!


Bottom line here seems to be that if you truly gained 1-2 lb of fat over 4 months you are very slightly over your TDEE (maintenance calorie level). But small overages can add up over time. To halt/reverse the gain, you need to eat very slightly less per day, or add a small amount of EXTRA exercise per day. If you move a bit more than you were doing these past 4 months, you will raise your TDEE by that amount, meaning you could eat the same and lose that tiny gain.

TDEE is total daily energy expenditure, so if you exercise/move more, you expend more energy, and your TDEE increases.

If you are maintaining your weight, you are at your TDEE, by definition. All any calculator will do is give you an estimate: real world results trump calculators.

Eat below TDEE you lose weight; eat above, you gain weight.

I said 1337, not 1377, to be specific, but otherwise, i still have a question to clarify (also thanks for the answer!)...if I am 2 pounds heavier now, in theory, isn't my BMR even higher? thus those 63 cals wouldn't still be 'extra' they would be normal, right?

_Terrapin_

You've gotten ample feedback already, why are you continuing to ask?

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1274216-how-the-hell-does-the-tdee-count

you had me at ample......:)

IdcShrimp

I just started using Pacer, a pedometer app, and today it told me I took 3375 steps, and burned 58 cals. Now, do those 58 cals count as exercise calories and would I add them to my TDEE, or does the TDEE already take those into account?

Ooops - meant to address this bit too.

If those steps are part of your normal daily activity (i.e. if those are the normal steps you take getting to and from work etc) then this is already part of your current TDEE.

If these are 3375 steps you added to your normal routine, then these steps will become part of your new TDEE.

Note: TDEE will not be the same everyday. If you normally walk 5 miles uphill both ways to the market every Saturday, your TDEE will be higher than on Sunday when you laze around in your PJ's reading the funnies. Look long term though, and average it out over a week or so.

yeah, but is the 58 calories ALL that should be added as my TDEE? Or are other things like laughing, talking, fidgeting, etc, all part of my TDEE? If i screamed bloody murder for an hour that same day, wouldn't that be part of my TDEE too?

IdcShrimp

You've gotten ample feedback already, why are you continuing to ask?

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1274216-how-the-hell-does-the-tdee-count

you had me at ample......:)

why...are you even on my thread? i'm sitting here completely confused and you're mocking me for it. i should probably report you...