Checking My Privilege: Character as the Basis of Privilege
TwinkieDong
Posts: 1,564 Member
in Chit-Chat
one of the best responses to those that make themselves victims all the time. It is much easier being a victim then it is to find your own faults.
There is a phrase that floats around college campuses, Princeton being no exception, that threatens to strike down opinions without regard for their merits, but rather solely on the basis of the person that voiced them. “Check your privilege,” the saying goes, and I have been reprimanded by it several times this year. The phrase, handed down by my moral superiors, descends recklessly, like an Obama-sanctioned drone, and aims laser-like at my pinkish-peach complexion, my maleness, and the nerve I displayed in offering an opinion rooted in a personal Weltanschauung. “Check your privilege,” they tell me in a command that teeters between an imposition to actually explore how I got where I am, and a reminder that I ought to feel personally apologetic because white males seem to pull most of the strings in the world.
I do not accuse those who “check” me and my perspective of overt racism, although the phrase, which assumes that simply because I belong to a certain ethnic group I should be judged collectively with it, toes that line. But I do condemn them for diminishing everything I have personally accomplished, all the hard work I have done in my life, and for ascribing all the fruit I reap not to the seeds I sow but to some invisible patron saint of white maleness who places it out for me before I even arrive. Furthermore, I condemn them for casting the equal protection clause, indeed the very idea of a meritocracy, as a myth, and for declaring that we are all governed by invisible forces (some would call them “stigmas” or “societal norms”), that our nation runs on racist and sexist conspiracies. Forget “you didn’t build that;” check your privilege and realize that nothing you have accomplished is real.
But they can’t be telling me that everything I’ve done with my life can be credited to the racist patriarchy holding my hand throughout my years of education and eventually guiding me into Princeton. Even that is too extreme. So to find out what they are saying, I decided to take their advice. I actually went and checked the origins of my privileged existence, to empathize with those whose underdog stories I can’t possibly comprehend. I have unearthed some examples of the privilege with which my family was blessed, and now I think I better understand those who assure me that skin color allowed my family and I to flourish today.
Perhaps it’s the privilege my grandfather and his brother had to flee their home as teenagers when the Nazis invaded Poland, leaving their mother and five younger siblings behind, running and running until they reached a Displaced Persons camp in Siberia, where they would do years of hard labor in the bitter cold until World War II ended. Maybe it was the privilege my grandfather had of taking on the local Rabbi’s work in that DP camp, telling him that the spiritual leader shouldn’t do hard work, but should save his energy to pass Jewish tradition along to those who might survive. Perhaps it was the privilege my great-grandmother and those five great-aunts and uncles I never knew had of being shot into an open grave outside their hometown. Maybe that’s my privilege.
Or maybe it’s the privilege my grandmother had of spending weeks upon weeks on a death march through Polish forests in subzero temperatures, one of just a handful to survive, only to be put in Bergen-Belsen concentration camp where she would have died but for the Allied forces who liberated her and helped her regain her health when her weight dwindled to barely 80 pounds.
Perhaps my privilege is that those two resilient individuals came to America with no money and no English, obtained citizenship, learned the language and met each other; that my grandfather started a humble wicker basket business with nothing but long hours, an idea, and an iron will—to paraphrase the man I never met: “I escaped Hitler. Some business troubles are going to ruin me?” Maybe my privilege is that they worked hard enough to raise four children, and to send them to Jewish day school and eventually City College.
Perhaps it was my privilege that my own father worked hard enough in City College to earn a spot at a top graduate school, got a good job, and for 25 years got up well before the crack of dawn, sacrificing precious time he wanted to spend with those he valued most—his wife and kids—to earn that living. I can say with certainty there was no legacy involved in any of his accomplishments. The wicker business just isn’t that influential.Now would you say that we’ve been really privileged? That our success has been gift-wrapped?
That’s the problem with calling someone out for the “privilege” which you assume has defined their narrative. You don’t know what their struggles have been, what they may have gone through to be where they are. Assuming they’ve benefitted from “power systems” or other conspiratorial imaginary institutions denies them credit for all they’ve done, things of which you may not even conceive. You don’t know whose father died defending your freedom. You don’t know whose mother escaped oppression. You don’t know who conquered their demons, or may still conquering them now.
The truth is, though, that I have been exceptionally privileged in my life, albeit not in the way any detractors would have it.
It has been my distinct privilege that my grandparents came to America. First, that there was a place at all that would take them from the ruins of Europe. And second, that such a place was one where they could legally enter, learn the language, and acclimate to a society that ultimately allowed them to flourish.
It was their privilege to come to a country that grants equal protection under the law to its citizens, that cares not about religion or race, but the content of your character.
It was my privilege that my grandfather was blessed with resolve and an entrepreneurial spirit, and that he was lucky enough to come to the place where he could realize the dream of giving his children a better life than he had.
But far more important for me than his attributes was the legacy he sought to pass along, which forms the basis of what detractors call my “privilege,” but which actually should be praised as one of altruism and self-sacrifice. Those who came before us suffered for the sake of giving us a better life. When we similarly sacrifice for our descendents by caring for the planet, it’s called “environmentalism,” and is applauded. But when we do it by passing along property and a set of values, it’s called “privilege.” (And when we do it by raising questions about our crippling national debt, we’re called Tea Party radicals.) Such sacrifice of any form shouldn’t be scorned, but admired.
My exploration did yield some results. I recognize that it was my parents’ privilege and now my own that there is such a thing as an American dream which is attainable even for a penniless Jewish immigrant.
I am privileged that values like faith and education were passed along to me. My grandparents played an active role in my parents’ education, and some of my earliest memories included learning the Hebrew alphabet with my Dad. It’s been made clear to me that education begins in the home, and the importance of parents’ involvement with their kids’ education—from mathematics to morality—cannot be overstated. It’s not a matter of white or black, male or female or any other division which we seek, but a matter of the values we pass along, the legacy we leave, that perpetuates “privilege.” And there’s nothing wrong with that.
Behind every success, large or small, there is a story, and it isn’t always told by sex or skin color. My appearance certainly doesn’t tell the whole story, and to assume that it does and that I should apologize for it is insulting. While I haven’t done everything for myself up to this point in my life, someone sacrificed themselves so that I can lead a better life. But that is a legacy I am proud of.
I have checked my privilege. And I apologize for nothing.
http://theprincetontory.com/main/checking-my-privilege-character-as-the-basis-of-privilege/
There is a phrase that floats around college campuses, Princeton being no exception, that threatens to strike down opinions without regard for their merits, but rather solely on the basis of the person that voiced them. “Check your privilege,” the saying goes, and I have been reprimanded by it several times this year. The phrase, handed down by my moral superiors, descends recklessly, like an Obama-sanctioned drone, and aims laser-like at my pinkish-peach complexion, my maleness, and the nerve I displayed in offering an opinion rooted in a personal Weltanschauung. “Check your privilege,” they tell me in a command that teeters between an imposition to actually explore how I got where I am, and a reminder that I ought to feel personally apologetic because white males seem to pull most of the strings in the world.
I do not accuse those who “check” me and my perspective of overt racism, although the phrase, which assumes that simply because I belong to a certain ethnic group I should be judged collectively with it, toes that line. But I do condemn them for diminishing everything I have personally accomplished, all the hard work I have done in my life, and for ascribing all the fruit I reap not to the seeds I sow but to some invisible patron saint of white maleness who places it out for me before I even arrive. Furthermore, I condemn them for casting the equal protection clause, indeed the very idea of a meritocracy, as a myth, and for declaring that we are all governed by invisible forces (some would call them “stigmas” or “societal norms”), that our nation runs on racist and sexist conspiracies. Forget “you didn’t build that;” check your privilege and realize that nothing you have accomplished is real.
But they can’t be telling me that everything I’ve done with my life can be credited to the racist patriarchy holding my hand throughout my years of education and eventually guiding me into Princeton. Even that is too extreme. So to find out what they are saying, I decided to take their advice. I actually went and checked the origins of my privileged existence, to empathize with those whose underdog stories I can’t possibly comprehend. I have unearthed some examples of the privilege with which my family was blessed, and now I think I better understand those who assure me that skin color allowed my family and I to flourish today.
Perhaps it’s the privilege my grandfather and his brother had to flee their home as teenagers when the Nazis invaded Poland, leaving their mother and five younger siblings behind, running and running until they reached a Displaced Persons camp in Siberia, where they would do years of hard labor in the bitter cold until World War II ended. Maybe it was the privilege my grandfather had of taking on the local Rabbi’s work in that DP camp, telling him that the spiritual leader shouldn’t do hard work, but should save his energy to pass Jewish tradition along to those who might survive. Perhaps it was the privilege my great-grandmother and those five great-aunts and uncles I never knew had of being shot into an open grave outside their hometown. Maybe that’s my privilege.
Or maybe it’s the privilege my grandmother had of spending weeks upon weeks on a death march through Polish forests in subzero temperatures, one of just a handful to survive, only to be put in Bergen-Belsen concentration camp where she would have died but for the Allied forces who liberated her and helped her regain her health when her weight dwindled to barely 80 pounds.
Perhaps my privilege is that those two resilient individuals came to America with no money and no English, obtained citizenship, learned the language and met each other; that my grandfather started a humble wicker basket business with nothing but long hours, an idea, and an iron will—to paraphrase the man I never met: “I escaped Hitler. Some business troubles are going to ruin me?” Maybe my privilege is that they worked hard enough to raise four children, and to send them to Jewish day school and eventually City College.
Perhaps it was my privilege that my own father worked hard enough in City College to earn a spot at a top graduate school, got a good job, and for 25 years got up well before the crack of dawn, sacrificing precious time he wanted to spend with those he valued most—his wife and kids—to earn that living. I can say with certainty there was no legacy involved in any of his accomplishments. The wicker business just isn’t that influential.Now would you say that we’ve been really privileged? That our success has been gift-wrapped?
That’s the problem with calling someone out for the “privilege” which you assume has defined their narrative. You don’t know what their struggles have been, what they may have gone through to be where they are. Assuming they’ve benefitted from “power systems” or other conspiratorial imaginary institutions denies them credit for all they’ve done, things of which you may not even conceive. You don’t know whose father died defending your freedom. You don’t know whose mother escaped oppression. You don’t know who conquered their demons, or may still conquering them now.
The truth is, though, that I have been exceptionally privileged in my life, albeit not in the way any detractors would have it.
It has been my distinct privilege that my grandparents came to America. First, that there was a place at all that would take them from the ruins of Europe. And second, that such a place was one where they could legally enter, learn the language, and acclimate to a society that ultimately allowed them to flourish.
It was their privilege to come to a country that grants equal protection under the law to its citizens, that cares not about religion or race, but the content of your character.
It was my privilege that my grandfather was blessed with resolve and an entrepreneurial spirit, and that he was lucky enough to come to the place where he could realize the dream of giving his children a better life than he had.
But far more important for me than his attributes was the legacy he sought to pass along, which forms the basis of what detractors call my “privilege,” but which actually should be praised as one of altruism and self-sacrifice. Those who came before us suffered for the sake of giving us a better life. When we similarly sacrifice for our descendents by caring for the planet, it’s called “environmentalism,” and is applauded. But when we do it by passing along property and a set of values, it’s called “privilege.” (And when we do it by raising questions about our crippling national debt, we’re called Tea Party radicals.) Such sacrifice of any form shouldn’t be scorned, but admired.
My exploration did yield some results. I recognize that it was my parents’ privilege and now my own that there is such a thing as an American dream which is attainable even for a penniless Jewish immigrant.
I am privileged that values like faith and education were passed along to me. My grandparents played an active role in my parents’ education, and some of my earliest memories included learning the Hebrew alphabet with my Dad. It’s been made clear to me that education begins in the home, and the importance of parents’ involvement with their kids’ education—from mathematics to morality—cannot be overstated. It’s not a matter of white or black, male or female or any other division which we seek, but a matter of the values we pass along, the legacy we leave, that perpetuates “privilege.” And there’s nothing wrong with that.
Behind every success, large or small, there is a story, and it isn’t always told by sex or skin color. My appearance certainly doesn’t tell the whole story, and to assume that it does and that I should apologize for it is insulting. While I haven’t done everything for myself up to this point in my life, someone sacrificed themselves so that I can lead a better life. But that is a legacy I am proud of.
I have checked my privilege. And I apologize for nothing.
http://theprincetontory.com/main/checking-my-privilege-character-as-the-basis-of-privilege/
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Replies
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As a straight white male, I will not check my privilege unless I start losing it.0
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this is reactionism, not transcendence. the pendulum swings again. :yawn:0
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It is a big media Hoax and something people latch onto when they feel the victim. No its not that they didnt get the job because of their skin color or religion or what ever. It was because someone else was more qualified.
So if they quit being a victim and start looking at themselves from outside then they can focus on improving themselves. For example look at getting a higher education level, look at certifications, look at walking before you run. Meaning go for that Junior level position instead of a Senior Manager. Move up through hard work and perseverance.0 -
this is reactionism, not transcendence. the pendulum swings again. :yawn:
how so?0 -
So is minority privilege better than my privilege?0
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Hark! It is the cry of the persecuted white man, rarely seen in the wild anymore, as he is near extinction due to the rampant daily attacks on his typically mainstream, normalized lifestyle, choices, and appearance. Soon, he will be drowned out by reverse racist misandrists, evil predators hellbent on doing things like being able to rent an apartment without be rejected because of ethnic names, walking around a store without being followed, being able to wear their natural hair at work, or being better represented in a variety of vocational and media fields. With more and more vocal rejection of the status quo, cultural consciousness, and political power that were initially designed to benefit them, one can assume it is only a matter of time before the sole place to see a white man is in shackles, probably doing something backbreaking and demeaning like picking cotton or vegetables for little to no pay.0
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whiny mra thread is whiny :yawn:0
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Hark! It is the cry of the persecuted white man, rarely seen in the wild anymore, as he is near extinction due to the rampant daily attacks on his typically mainstream, normalized lifestyle, choices, and appearance. Soon, he will be drowned out by reverse racist misandrists, evil predators hellbent on doing things like being able to rent an apartment without be rejected because of ethnic names, walking around a store without being followed, being able to wear their natural hair at work, or being better represented in a variety of vocational and media fields. With more and more vocal rejection of the status quo, cultural consciousness, and political power that were initially designed to benefit them, one can assume it is only a matter of time before the sole place to see a white man is in shackles, probably doing something backbreaking and demeaning like picking cotton or vegetables for little to no pay.
I giggled.0 -
Funny, I just read this earlier this evening.
I feel very privileged, personally. I found exactly the right person, at exactly the right time, who made my life go from quite pleasant to ecstatically joyful. If reincarnation were real, I was some sort of martyr or hero in a past life, to deserve karma this wonderful. It has nothing to do with my skin color, though.
I have dated men of various races in the past, however, and I do get what is meant by "white privilege" in this country. I've never been stopped while walking on my college campus and asked if my bags could be searched for no apparent reason. I've been waived through license checkpoints. I've been given free dessert at restaurants just because. Being not only white, but also a reasonably attractive white woman, somehow means that people go out of their way to help you or do you favors. When out with my friends or dates who are not in that "category" and seeing the difference in how we're treated automatically by people without provocation or thought on their part, it just makes me sad.0 -
I find it funny when straight, white males complain about having to acknowledge the fact that they are "privileged" and then go on to list all their accomplishments while completely ignoring that they only had the opportunity to work hard because of their privilege... and completely miss that they are, in turn, saying that the people who didn't accomplish these things didn't do it because they are clearly not working hard enough.
Yeah... the child laborer in Bangladesh who started working 60 hrs a week in a toxic factory is clearly not working as hard as you... no, they'd never want to go to school because clearly, they aren't hard working enough... and no, their family (who survived civil wars and continue to battle political, social, and economic violence today) never had any tragedies...
Their little self righteous rant ignores that 1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime. That until recently, women have been denied and socialized to be subservient to men... that despite proving equal intelligence, they still get paid less than men for the same jobs...
*face palm*0 -
Oh neat! A Privilege Denying Dude thread!
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As a straight white male, I will not check my privilege unless I start losing it.
This just made my life. Someone gets it.0 -
Oy, I hate that saying. Being someone of mixed race (half black and half white) and being mistaken for being Hispanic, I find a statement like that so redundant in this day and age. Hell the Caucasian American population is decreasing to that of being a minority in this country anyways with it being so diverse. And I especially find the statement of "check your privilege" directed to a white male to be even more ridiculous and hypocritical when it comes from a white female, because he doesn't have any additional privileges that she doesn't have. Hell that male if he is between the ages of 18-25 has to sign up for selective service, he can be imprisoned for so much as laying a finger on a woman (where as a woman laying a hand on a man is often encouraged and celebrated specifically in movie genre), he can't claim sexism if a woman is chosen for a job or raise over him, women even have specific gender-based scholarships that they are eligible for simply for being born women. And on top of that, women can accuse a male of a crime that she knows he didn't commit, just as an act of vengeance towards him and she won't likely be prosecuted if they find out that she fabricated the allegations. On top of all that, in divorce court cases where alimony is involved, women are the recipients of alimony 92% of the time and receive custody of the children 80% of the time. Women will face less jail or prison time if any, for the same crime. So really who should be the ones to "check their privilege"?0
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Oy, I hate that saying. Being someone of mixed race (half black and half white) and being mistaken for being Hispanic, I find a statement like that so redundant in this day and age. Hell the Caucasian American population is decreasing to that of being a minority in this country anyways with it being so diverse. And I especially find the statement of "check your privilege" directed to a white male to be even more ridiculous and hypocritical when it comes from a white female, because he doesn't have any additional privileges that she doesn't have. Hell that male if he is between the ages of 18-25 has to sign up for selective service, he can be imprisoned for so much as laying a finger on a woman (where as a woman laying a hand on a man is often encouraged and celebrated specifically in movie genre), he can't claim sexism if a woman is chosen for a job or raise over him, women even have specific gender-based scholarships that they are eligible for simply for being born women. And on top of that, women can accuse a male of a crime that she knows he didn't commit, just as an act of vengeance towards him and she won't likely be prosecuted if they find out that she fabricated the allegations. On top of all that, in divorce court cases where alimony is involved, women are the recipients of alimony 92% of the time and receive custody of the children 80% of the time. Women will face less jail or prison time if any, for the same crime. So really who should be the ones to "check their privilege"?
FIFY.0 -
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What I find funny is how you want to be treated as equals until it comes to paying the bill or being on the front line during war. Every right I have I have actually earned. And I (and my fellow military veterans and current military personnel) have earned your rights for you as well. So if you enjoy being able to say whatever junk you feel like saying online, thank a veteran. But of course you will take such rights and privileges for granted and claim that you are treated unfairly. If your life isn't the way you want it to be, change it.0
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What I find funny is how you want to be treated as equals until it comes to paying the bill or being on the front line during war. Every right I have I have actually earned. And I (and my fellow military veterans and current military personnel) have earned your rights for you as well. So if you enjoy being able to say whatever junk you feel like saying online, thank a veteran. But of course you will take such rights and privileges for granted and claim that you are treated unfairly. If your life isn't the way you want it to be, change it.
You do realize that the biggest opponents of giving women combat roles are white males, right?0 -
Oy, I hate that saying. Being someone of mixed race (half black and half white) and being mistaken for being Hispanic, I find a statement like that so redundant in this day and age. Hell the Caucasian American population is decreasing to that of being a minority in this country anyways with it being so diverse. And I especially find the statement of "check your privilege" directed to a white male to be even more ridiculous and hypocritical when it comes from a white female, because he doesn't have any additional privileges that she doesn't have. Hell that male if he is between the ages of 18-25 has to sign up for selective service, he can be imprisoned for so much as laying a finger on a woman (where as a woman laying a hand on a man is often encouraged and celebrated specifically in movie genre), he can't claim sexism if a woman is chosen for a job or raise over him, women even have specific gender-based scholarships that they are eligible for simply for being born women. And on top of that, women can accuse a male of a crime that she knows he didn't commit, just as an act of vengeance towards him and she won't likely be prosecuted if they find out that she fabricated the allegations. On top of all that, in divorce court cases where alimony is involved, women are the recipients of alimony 92% of the time and receive custody of the children 80% of the time. Women will face less jail or prison time if any, for the same crime. So really who should be the ones to "check their privilege"?
FIFY.
What I find funny is how you want to be treated as equals until it comes to paying the bill or being on the front line during war. Every right I have I have actually earned. And I (and my fellow military veterans and current military personnel) have earned your rights for you as well. So if you enjoy being able to say whatever junk you feel like saying online, thank a veteran. But of course you will take such rights and privileges for granted and claim that you are treated unfairly. If your life isn't the way you want it to be, change it.0 -
Oy, I hate that saying. Being someone of mixed race (half black and half white) and being mistaken for being Hispanic, I find a statement like that so redundant in this day and age. Hell the Caucasian American population is decreasing to that of being a minority in this country anyways with it being so diverse. And I especially find the statement of "check your privilege" directed to a white male to be even more ridiculous and hypocritical when it comes from a white female, because he doesn't have any additional privileges that she doesn't have. Hell that male if he is between the ages of 18-25 has to sign up for selective service, he can be imprisoned for so much as laying a finger on a woman (where as a woman laying a hand on a man is often encouraged and celebrated specifically in movie genre), he can't claim sexism if a woman is chosen for a job or raise over him, women even have specific gender-based scholarships that they are eligible for simply for being born women. And on top of that, women can accuse a male of a crime that she knows he didn't commit, just as an act of vengeance towards him and she won't likely be prosecuted if they find out that she fabricated the allegations. On top of all that, in divorce court cases where alimony is involved, women are the recipients of alimony 92% of the time and receive custody of the children 80% of the time. Women will face less jail or prison time if any, for the same crime. So really who should be the ones to "check their privilege"?
FIFY.
Without commenting on the merits of the post, I must ask:
What equal rights did he purport to deny?0 -
What I find funny is how you want to be treated as equals until it comes to paying the bill or being on the front line during war. Every right I have I have actually earned. And I (and my fellow military veterans and current military personnel) have earned your rights for you as well. So if you enjoy being able to say whatever junk you feel like saying online, thank a veteran. But of course you will take such rights and privileges for granted and claim that you are treated unfairly. If your life isn't the way you want it to be, change it.
You do realize that the biggest opponents of giving women combat roles are white males, right?
Women can be in combat, they just have to be physically and mentally fit enough to do so. And most are not. The vast majority are not. They can legally be in them now though and hopefully the army forces them to meet the male standards the way the marines are trying to make it happen. Because it's funny how so many women are ok with equal rights when the standards are lowered for them. No! There needs to be 1 set standard.0 -
What I find funny is how you want to be treated as equals until it comes to paying the bill or being on the front line during war. Every right I have I have actually earned. And I (and my fellow military veterans and current military personnel) have earned your rights for you as well. So if you enjoy being able to say whatever junk you feel like saying online, thank a veteran. But of course you will take such rights and privileges for granted and claim that you are treated unfairly. If your life isn't the way you want it to be, change it.
You do realize that the biggest opponents of giving women combat roles are white males, right?
Women can be in combat, they just have to be physically and mentally fit enough to do so. And most are not. The vast majority are not. They can legally be in them now though and hopefully the army forces them to meet the male standards the way the marines are trying to make it happen. Because it's funny how so many women are ok with equal rights when the standards are lowered for them. No! There needs to be 1 set standard.
Does that standard include the right to due process when one of their peers rapes them? Because judging by the military's track record on holding rapists in their ranks accountable, I'd say they don't particularly think so.0 -
What I find funny is how you want to be treated as equals until it comes to paying the bill or being on the front line during war. Every right I have I have actually earned. And I (and my fellow military veterans and current military personnel) have earned your rights for you as well. So if you enjoy being able to say whatever junk you feel like saying online, thank a veteran. But of course you will take such rights and privileges for granted and claim that you are treated unfairly. If your life isn't the way you want it to be, change it.
FIFY.0 -
Furthermore, the physical tests they have to overcome to get combat roles will be gender neutral.
Furthermore, given that most of our military activities are less strength driven and more technology and mechanically driven, the "biological gap" between the two is increasingly irrelevant.
But... tell me more about how women (many of whom have signed up very quickly) for the exact jobs you claim they don't want to do is a sign of the double standard and of "white female privilege."0 -
Furthermore, the physical tests they have to overcome to get combat roles will be gender neutral.
This is not true. http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/03/31/3420829/women-marine-training/
Here's an article from a very progressive source to that effect.Furthermore, given that most of our military activities are less strength driven and more technology and mechanically driven, the "biological gap" between the two is increasingly irrelevant.
This is largely true, but doesn't apply to front-line roles, which I thought was the issue here.But... tell me more about how women (many of whom have signed up very quickly) for the exact jobs you claim they don't want to do is a sign of the double standard and of "white female privilege."
Zing!0 -
Furthermore, the physical tests they have to overcome to get combat roles will be gender neutral.
Furthermore, given that most of our military activities are less strength driven and more technology and mechanically driven, the "biological gap" between the two is increasingly irrelevant.
But... tell me more about how women (many of whom have signed up very quickly) for the exact jobs you claim they don't want to do is a sign of the double standard and of "white female privilege."
Really? Show me how and where they are signing up quickly to combat positions? I was actually in the military and just got out last year, so between the two of us I am the subject matter expert on the military. And as far as the rape goes, rape is a very difficult thing to prove, seeing as many times the accused will admit to intercourse but claim it as being consensual and rape semen doesn't look any different than consensual semen. And actually more males are raped in the military than females. And trying to talk about the frequency of rape in the military would be like talking about the frequency of rape in say New York city. It becomes more prevalent when you are living in the same complexes and are working in the same area and essentially together for long periods of time. And actually the female pt standards are very much lowered for women and I have never agreed with that. Hell an average enlisted female doesn't have any less of a chance of doing well on the male standard of the pt test as a sedentary enlisted male straight out of high school. It needs to be 1 standard especially if women want to be equals.0 -
Furthermore, the physical tests they have to overcome to get combat roles will be gender neutral.
Furthermore, given that most of our military activities are less strength driven and more technology and mechanically driven, the "biological gap" between the two is increasingly irrelevant.
But... tell me more about how women (many of whom have signed up very quickly) for the exact jobs you claim they don't want to do is a sign of the double standard and of "white female privilege."
And also saying that it is less strength and physically driven is ridiculous when you consider that when I was in Iraq I (not a computer) was jumping out of a helicopter and running towards a house with my platoon to clear it. And in combat mos's (I know at least in the army), you do A LOT of physical activity. Hell I was 13B (field artillery). For part of my deployment I had to load up 98 pound rounds into the tube of a paladin and pull the lanyard when my section chief gave me the order to fire. That was tiring and grueling for me to do and I workout 5-6 days a week. Not many people can do that for 30 rounds at a time to qualify on the gun.0 -
This is not true. http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/03/31/3420829/women-marine-training/
Here's an article from a very progressive source to that effect.
Right... that is one example amongst many different standards. Standards are changing across the military and for the better (regardless of gender). In the case of some parts of the military, the physical tests are changing to simulations of actual battlefield activities:
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/02/army-preparing-to-allow-women-in-combat-roles-100585.html
Its clear that the issue requires study... and given that women are not going to be in combat roles until 2015, its good that this issue is being studied. The fact that this had been too taboo to even considered until 2013 is precisely the problem that Joel seems to ignore.This is largely true, but doesn't apply to front-line roles, which I thought was the issue here.
The front line is less about digging trenches and hand to hand combat and more about using tanks and other technologies to neutralize the threat. As such, the strength disparity is increasingly less important (but not unimportant).0 -
Women can be in combat, they just have to be physically and mentally fit enough to do so. And most are not. The vast majority are not. They can legally be in them now though and hopefully the army forces them to meet the male standards the way the marines are trying to make it happen. Because it's funny how so many women are ok with equal rights when the standards are lowered for them. No! There needs to be 1 set standard.
So...you're saying that with the number of men who came off of combat with mental issues, PTSD, depression and even very violent and sometimes deadly outcomes once they're home, they're trying to hold women to a different standard?0 -
There are so many problematic statements in his post(s) that it's difficult to know where to begin, but I guess I can start with his claim that white males don't experience any more privilege than white females. That's absolutely ludicrous. His ability to discount wage gap statistics, sexual assault statistics, and come up with completely absurd conjecture about women falsely reporting rapes and refusing to settle the bill on a date all contribute to the patriarchal society that we live in. Attitudes like his are used to propagate misinformation and justify atrocities committed against women on a daily basis. It is exhausting to try to refute the asinine and often disgusting statements made by MRAs like him, so yes, sometimes defaulting to the Privilege Denying Dude meme is all I have the energy to respond with.Without commenting on the merits of the post, I must ask:
What equal rights did he purport to deny?0 -
There are so many problematic statements in his post(s) that it's difficult to know where to begin, but I guess I can start with his claim that white males don't experience any more privilege than white females. That's absolutely ludicrous. His ability to discount wage gap statistics, sexual assault statistics, and come up with completely absurd conjecture about women falsely reporting rapes and refusing to settle the bill on a date all contribute to the patriarchal society that we live in and are used to justify atrocities committed against women on a daily basis. It is exhausting to try to refute the asinine and often disgusting statements made by MRAs like him, so yes, sometimes defaulting to Privilege Denying Dude is all I have the energy to respond with.Without commenting on the merits of the post, I must ask:
What equal rights did he purport to deny?
Ahhh men, can't live with 'em...0
This discussion has been closed.
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