OA but not religious?
Replies
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My thought about your dilemma is that you haven't been able to do it yourself, so it may be time to consider that there is a God, and He can help. There are so many stories out there of people coming to the end of their own abilities and finding that God can fix what we cannot. God healed my gallbladder when 5 doctors said it would have to be removed, and also he healed some personal, emotional hurts I'd dealt with for 20+ years. I thought I'd always have that scar, but suddenly, it was gone. God sent his son Jesus to die for us so that we can be reconciled to God. Jesus said, there is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Every single person who doesn't believe in god HAS considered the idea of a god. Your attempt at being condescending is appalling.
How about buddhism, which has faith and spirituality yet no god at all?
A higher power doesn't need to be a guy on a cloud handing out favors or punishments. It doesn't need to be a guy on a cloud at all. Or a guy. Or an anything.
The functional notion of 'higher power' in this context is intended to be infinitely flexible (according to documentary evidence of the people who created the notion). The 12 steps were created in a time in American history where monotheistic Christianity was the order of the day. The program stemmed from the principals of the Oxford Groups which were quite specifically Christian. Funnily enough, AA broke away from that. They did their best, despite the limitations of their 1930s cultuer and lexicon, to express the higher power as an infinitely accessible, infinitely variable and highly personal concept.
Unfortunately in their use of language, they were far from perfect seperating the concept of a higher power from the judeochristian external, paternal, omnipotent male archetype.
Long story short, do not needlessly adopt the limitations and ignorance of others.
I like you and we have been friends for a long time, but I really feel like you are trying to push this on her and insisting if she doesn't go she's ignorant. I know that's not what you are saying, but that's the way it is coming across. The reason there are a variety of treatments for mental health issues (eating disorders of all varieties included) is because not everyone responds to treatment in the same way. We are wired different. Some people need touchy feely, some people need spiritual, some people need tough love, some people need to be reminded that they are badass.
I can agree to being open to spirituality when it comes to the context of a the individual questioning the meaning of personal existence and attempting to define what their function or role in the world is. I do agree with the Buddhist Noble Eightfold Path, but it's about peace and empowerment. You make the changes to correct thinking/behaviors and produce peace. The OA 12 step program is about handing over control and letting someone else take the burden from you.
Funny enough, the limitations and ignorance that I was referring to are not those of people who aren't certain or disbelieve; I was referring to the limitations and ignorance created within religion and that come from buying someone else's idea of a god.
However, I DID quote this time, to make it painfully clear to whom I was responding, & that wasn't to the OP. A poster suggested Jesus/God (the judeochristian concept of god/faith/sprituality) was the solution. A respondent stated that obviously that had already been considered and that it was condescending for someone to imply that it hasn't.
My response was (intended to mean) that the rejection of a single approach to god needn't eliminate every possible concept or approach to spirituality.
And following all of that, the whole purpose - in my understanding - of the belief in a higher power associated with these programs is to get people to just 'drop the rock'. A lot of people take solace in the idea of handing the rock over to someone or something, rather than just dropping it on the spot.
I really could go on an on, but at the end of the day, I'm encouraging open-mindedness.
I got what you meant. I totally didn't understand how usmcmp misinterpretted it. But I guess we all have our off-days.
If I may sum up your point for you, you are saying that the OP should stay open-minded about OA even if she is not open-minded about religion. Amirite?0 -
I got what you meant. I totally didn't understand how usmcmp misinterpretted it. But I guess we all have our off-days.
If I may sum up your point for you, you are saying that the OP should stay open-minded about OA even if she is not open-minded about religion. Amirite?
Sort of. Just saying be open-minded in general.
Guesses and hearsay are not great reasons to avoid such groups.
Thing is, there are genuine things to watch out for or be wary of, as with any human-operated group. I could even understand seeing some people who had bad experiences at the micro-level applying those to macro-level conclusions about these programs. So far, I'm not seeing much experience as a part of the counterpoint; just assumption.0 -
Jumping in a little late. I belong to this program and do not believe in god. I am pretty anti religion but this is really the only thing that has worked for me, a food addict. And there are members with a variety of beliefs and non beliefs who have had a reprieve from the obsession with food. I have never felt anyone pushing religion. Yes, they close with non denominational prayers which you don't have to participate in. If you can't stop eating or are binging/purging or are obsessed with food, I recommend trying it. I know people who have maintained significant weight losses for years (20 years for one guy who has lost 110 pounds).
If anyone is interested in chatting, please let me know.
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1) seek out individual counseling.
2) go to OA and just substitute whatever beleifs are for you
3) go to OA with an open mind and see if you don't begin to beleive in a power larger than yourself.
4) go to OA with a closed mind and just tell yourself you will pick and choose tools to help yourself if you are already firm on your beleifs.
5) go to OA completely undecided and don't pre-judge anyone as to your feelings if they might pre-judge you.
These are your options as I see them. Notice many of them involve you going anyways with various mindsets.
All of them enable you to take some sort of action to help yourself. The only thing that is NOT an option is doing nothing now that you have come to the realization.
The truth will set you free. You have realized your truth. Prepare to be freed.:flowerforyou:0 -
I think it may depend on the group. Maybe it is different because I never needed an addiction program. I did go to alanon, and it was just a support group. We never did the steps as part of the group. It was up to us. The only steps I did were the moral inventory and talking to others about wrongs (it is reiterated in a series of steps). I'm an agnostic atheist, but don't have any issue with personal spirituality such as meditation (I just enjoy the experiences and don't assign any divine meaning or explanations).
I would have a hard time with the group if I was expected to believe in God. Because I have already taken that route and come to where I am at with it. I am agnostic (meaning that I don't claim to know anything that I can't possibly know). The religious and spiritual concepts of healing are the opposite of helpful to me. I do like some buddhism.0 -
The key concepts that drive success in any "Anonymous" (OA, AA, NA) group are:
1. Acceptance of problem
2. Peer pressure
3. Persistence despite failure
4. Creation of habit
It is also why MFP works... it builds accountability and refocuses your peer group to include people who are also aiming from and to the same level as you...it establishes a habit... it teaches you to keep going despite a good or a bad week.
Once you recognize this, you don't need OA... you just need to find people who can hold you accountable and support you when you fail. This can be friends and family... this can be people on this site.
There is no magic trick to sticking with it.0 -
The whole higher power thing is a sticking point for a lot of people, and unfortunately keeps some people from ever checking out a 12-step program in person.
Let me just say the "Twelve Steps" in the concise text that several people have posted, is the summation of 164 pages of text, and therefore pretty easy to take out of context if you are just looking at the Twelve Steps themselves.
Anywho, there is a lot of wiggle room for those who don't believe in a standard religion. Many forms of a higher power talked about in a 12 step meeting are as followed:
The group itself
Group Of Drunks
Good Orderly Direction
Mother Nature
Electricity
The rain
Moral Compass
Relatives who have passed on
Science
and the list goes on and on
Also, in the literature the word "God" becomes synonymous with "Higher Power" And "God as we understand him". Otherwise the book would be twice as long! The word "God" was literally used to save paper, the book was named the Big Book because in 1939 the paper used to print the book was thick and the book was HUGE.0 -
1. We admitted we were powerless over xxxxxxx — that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
The premise of 12-step programs is a definite turn-off for an agnostic atheist at peace with their beliefs. OP, I agree there's little to lose checking out your local group. I hope it's full of friendly people offering guidance, advice, and support--and open to the notion that humans are amazingly capable beings able to succeed without supernatural help. 0 -
My higher power is processed carbs.0
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Not worth the strike...0
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My thought about your dilemma is that you haven't been able to do it yourself, so it may be time to consider that there is a God, and He can help. There are so many stories out there of people coming to the end of their own abilities and finding that God can fix what we cannot. God healed my gallbladder when 5 doctors said it would have to be removed, and also he healed some personal, emotional hurts I'd dealt with for 20+ years. I thought I'd always have that scar, but suddenly, it was gone. God sent his son Jesus to die for us so that we can be reconciled to God. Jesus said, there is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Every single person who doesn't believe in god HAS considered the idea of a god. Your attempt at being condescending is appalling.
How about buddhism, which has faith and spirituality yet no god at all?
A higher power doesn't need to be a guy on a cloud handing out favors or punishments. It doesn't need to be a guy on a cloud at all. Or a guy. Or an anything.
The functional notion of 'higher power' in this context is intended to be infinitely flexible (according to documentary evidence of the people who created the notion). The 12 steps were created in a time in American history where monotheistic Christianity was the order of the day. The program stemmed from the principals of the Oxford Groups which were quite specifically Christian. Funnily enough, AA broke away from that. They did their best, despite the limitations of their 1930s cultuer and lexicon, to express the higher power as an infinitely accessible, infinitely variable and highly personal concept.
Unfortunately in their use of language, they were far from perfect seperating the concept of a higher power from the judeochristian external, paternal, omnipotent male archetype.
Long story short, do not needlessly adopt the limitations and ignorance of others.
I like you and we have been friends for a long time, but I really feel like you are trying to push this on her and insisting if she doesn't go she's ignorant. I know that's not what you are saying, but that's the way it is coming across. The reason there are a variety of treatments for mental health issues (eating disorders of all varieties included) is because not everyone responds to treatment in the same way. We are wired different. Some people need touchy feely, some people need spiritual, some people need tough love, some people need to be reminded that they are badass.
I can agree to being open to spirituality when it comes to the context of a the individual questioning the meaning of personal existence and attempting to define what their function or role in the world is. I do agree with the Buddhist Noble Eightfold Path, but it's about peace and empowerment. You make the changes to correct thinking/behaviors and produce peace. The OA 12 step program is about handing over control and letting someone else take the burden from you.
Funny enough, the limitations and ignorance that I was referring to are not those of people who aren't certain or disbelieve; I was referring to the limitations and ignorance created within religion and that come from buying someone else's idea of a god.
However, I DID quote this time, to make it painfully clear to whom I was responding, & that wasn't to the OP. A poster suggested Jesus/God (the judeochristian concept of god/faith/sprituality) was the solution. A respondent stated that obviously that had already been considered and that it was condescending for someone to imply that it hasn't.
My response was (intended to mean) that the rejection of a single approach to god needn't eliminate every possible concept or approach to spirituality.
And following all of that, the whole purpose - in my understanding - of the belief in a higher power associated with these programs is to get people to just 'drop the rock'. A lot of people take solace in the idea of handing the rock over to someone or something, rather than just dropping it on the spot.
I really could go on an on, but at the end of the day, I'm encouraging open-mindedness.
Thank you for this conversation, from both of you.
It enriches my day.
OP, there is little to be lost from going to a OA meeting and testing if it is for you or not. I say this as an strong agnostic comfortable with my beliefs.0 -
I've always had an idea of AA and the like that they are very much religious, but based on this very interesting thread I'd go and take a look for myself. As long as nobody is showing their particular world view down my throat I'd be good to go. It's hard enough as it is not to be able to put into words exactly how and what I feel about spirituality at this point, but like BinaryPulsar said it might be depending on the group how much emphasis is put on what. I'd be curious after this discussion.0
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I've always had an idea of AA and the like that they are very much religious, but based on this very interesting thread I'd go and take a look for myself. As long as nobody is showing their particular world view down my throat I'd be good to go. It's hard enough as it is not to be able to put into words exactly how and what I feel about spirituality at this point, but like BinaryPulsar said it might be depending on the group how much emphasis is put on what. I'd be curious after this discussion.
I took a friend to a daughters of alcoholics meeting twenty odd years ago, it did have a religious tone and if you focus on that alone, yes, it is likely not for someone that "feels something is being shoved down your throat". I felt uncomfortable with it given my world view and reserves but I also found it truly helped my friend. I know she felt it saved her life and helped her deal with a lot of things.
For me, it challenged my view on my own religious attitude - not so much my beliefs but my openness to the value of complex trust and structure and the creation of tradition.
It isn't for me, not ever (I've learned this about myself), but I value that it was there for a friend.
I also support the idea being expressed here of being open in mind to the idea of a community of trust and help, wherever you find it.0 -
I work for an organisation that delivers 12 step treatment to addicts and one of the things we encourage is that people focus on the similarities of the stories of others rather than the differences. Therfore you can identify with people who have had similar experiences.0
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I'm not what you would call an "outwardly religious person". Yes, I believe in God, but that's between me and Him.
I'd say, give it a try. There must be some merit to it since it's been around for so long. If you can try to focus more on the idea that "we're all here for the same reason - that we have addiction to food", then maybe there will be some tools they have you can use to help you move on.
I remember when I was taking an intensive Spanish class in college. There was a guy in the class I thought was a complete jerk. BUT we had the same goal: We both wanted an "A" in the class. There was another guy there who also wanted an "A" in the class - so the three of us teamed up and set forth to do so. And we did. Put aside the differences and look for things that make you the same - or seek the common goal - in this case it's weight loss.0 -
My thought about your dilemma is that you haven't been able to do it yourself, so it may be time to consider that there is a God, and He can help. There are so many stories out there of people coming to the end of their own abilities and finding that God can fix what we cannot. God healed my gallbladder when 5 doctors said it would have to be removed, and also he healed some personal, emotional hurts I'd dealt with for 20+ years. I thought I'd always have that scar, but suddenly, it was gone. God sent his son Jesus to die for us so that we can be reconciled to God. Jesus said, there is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Every single person who doesn't believe in god HAS considered the idea of a god. Your attempt at being condescending is appalling.
How about buddhism, which has faith and spirituality yet no god at all?
A higher power doesn't need to be a guy on a cloud handing out favors or punishments. It doesn't need to be a guy on a cloud at all. Or a guy. Or an anything.
The functional notion of 'higher power' in this context is intended to be infinitely flexible (according to documentary evidence of the people who created the notion). The 12 steps were created in a time in American history where monotheistic Christianity was the order of the day. The program stemmed from the principals of the Oxford Groups which were quite specifically Christian. Funnily enough, AA broke away from that. They did their best, despite the limitations of their 1930s cultuer and lexicon, to express the higher power as an infinitely accessible, infinitely variable and highly personal concept.
Unfortunately in their use of language, they were far from perfect seperating the concept of a higher power from the judeochristian external, paternal, omnipotent male archetype.
Long story short, do not needlessly adopt the limitations and ignorance of others.
I have no clue what you're rambling about but what about Buddhism? They don't believe in a higher power or a god. It's not a religion.0 -
I have a problem with neither religion nor spirituality nor lack of both, but in this particular context it's a matter of showing vulnerability. If people around me were to sit on a high horse the way some (non-)religious people unfortunately do at times, I personally don't think I'd feel like opening up about my weaknesses at all.I've always had an idea of AA and the like that they are very much religious, but based on this very interesting thread I'd go and take a look for myself. As long as nobody is showing their particular world view down my throat I'd be good to go. It's hard enough as it is not to be able to put into words exactly how and what I feel about spirituality at this point, but like BinaryPulsar said it might be depending on the group how much emphasis is put on what. I'd be curious after this discussion.
I took a friend to a daughters of alcoholics meeting twenty odd years ago, it did have a religious tone and if you focus on that alone, yes, it is likely not for someone that "feels something is being shoved down your throat". I felt uncomfortable with it given my world view and reserves but I also found it truly helped my friend. I know she felt it saved her life and helped her deal with a lot of things.
For me, it challenged my view on my own religious attitude - not so much my beliefs but my openness to the value of complex trust and structure and the creation of tradition.
It isn't for me, not ever (I've learned this about myself), but I value that it was there for a friend.
I also support the idea being expressed here of being open in mind to the idea of a community of trust and help, wherever you find it.
But if the group of individuals were accepting other ways of viewing the world, regardless of the path the others have chosen, I'd be all for it; everyone would be on the same level and none "holier than thou". My point was that since it might be an aspect differing from group to group, based on this thread I'd go and see for myself whether the individuals there would be a fit or not. The meeting would then be more about the addiction itself and not so much about what one may or may not believe in.0 -
I have a problem with neither religion nor spirituality nor lack of both, but in this particular context it's a matter of showing vulnerability. If people around me were to sit on a high horse the way some (non-)religious people unfortunately do at times, I personally don't think I'd feel like opening up about my weaknesses at all.I've always had an idea of AA and the like that they are very much religious, but based on this very interesting thread I'd go and take a look for myself. As long as nobody is showing their particular world view down my throat I'd be good to go. It's hard enough as it is not to be able to put into words exactly how and what I feel about spirituality at this point, but like BinaryPulsar said it might be depending on the group how much emphasis is put on what. I'd be curious after this discussion.
I took a friend to a daughters of alcoholics meeting twenty odd years ago, it did have a religious tone and if you focus on that alone, yes, it is likely not for someone that "feels something is being shoved down your throat". I felt uncomfortable with it given my world view and reserves but I also found it truly helped my friend. I know she felt it saved her life and helped her deal with a lot of things.
For me, it challenged my view on my own religious attitude - not so much my beliefs but my openness to the value of complex trust and structure and the creation of tradition.
It isn't for me, not ever (I've learned this about myself), but I value that it was there for a friend.
I also support the idea being expressed here of being open in mind to the idea of a community of trust and help, wherever you find it.
But if the group of individuals were accepting other ways of viewing the world, regardless of the path the others have chosen, I'd be all for it; everyone would be on the same level and none "holier than thou". My point was that since it might be an aspect differing from group to group, based on this thread I'd go and see for myself whether the individuals there would be a fit or not. The meeting would then be more about the addiction itself and not so much about what one may or may not believe in.
The focus is on controlling compulsion through faith. You can have faith in anything. Even if you are putting that faith in yourself. Your higher power could just as easily be your own will power as anything else.0 -
I also just want to add that even though I found alanon somewhat helpful at a brief time in my life because it was a free support group that I was much younger at that time (it was over a decade ago), and I did decide that it wasn't for me and did not continue long term. The reason I gave it a shot was because my husband had such a great experience with alateen. He remained long term friends with the members and I share those friendships now as well. I like the anonymity. It feels safe to open up (when I was younger I needed that).
I also have a family member that goes to Coda meetings and it might help her, but sometimes I wonder if it fuels her dysfunction.0 -
My thought about your dilemma is that you haven't been able to do it yourself, so it may be time to consider that there is a God, and He can help. There are so many stories out there of people coming to the end of their own abilities and finding that God can fix what we cannot. God healed my gallbladder when 5 doctors said it would have to be removed, and also he healed some personal, emotional hurts I'd dealt with for 20+ years. I thought I'd always have that scar, but suddenly, it was gone. God sent his son Jesus to die for us so that we can be reconciled to God. Jesus said, there is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Every single person who doesn't believe in god HAS considered the idea of a god. Your attempt at being condescending is appalling.
How about buddhism, which has faith and spirituality yet no god at all?
A higher power doesn't need to be a guy on a cloud handing out favors or punishments. It doesn't need to be a guy on a cloud at all. Or a guy. Or an anything.
The functional notion of 'higher power' in this context is intended to be infinitely flexible (according to documentary evidence of the people who created the notion). The 12 steps were created in a time in American history where monotheistic Christianity was the order of the day. The program stemmed from the principals of the Oxford Groups which were quite specifically Christian. Funnily enough, AA broke away from that. They did their best, despite the limitations of their 1930s cultuer and lexicon, to express the higher power as an infinitely accessible, infinitely variable and highly personal concept.
Unfortunately in their use of language, they were far from perfect seperating the concept of a higher power from the judeochristian external, paternal, omnipotent male archetype.
Long story short, do not needlessly adopt the limitations and ignorance of others.
I have no clue what you're rambling about but what about Buddhism? They don't believe in a higher power or a god. It's not a religion.
Yes, your cluelessness was established when you didn't read the first sentence I wrote: "How about buddhism, which has faith and spirituality yet no god at all?"
Is that helpful for you?0
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