Necessity of carbs when bulking
AshwinA7
Posts: 102 Member
Hey all,
I'm starting to gain now and am eating a little above maintenance for a clean bulk. I've seen people list their bulking macros as
1g of protein/pound of bodyweight
40% total calories as carbs
And the rest Fat.
My question is, what chemical role do carbohydrates play in muscle creation?
I'm not considering doing it, but is it possible to gain muscle while keeping carbs at a low level and making up the deficit with proteins and fats? Are carbs there mainly for energy to get good workouts?
I'm starting to gain now and am eating a little above maintenance for a clean bulk. I've seen people list their bulking macros as
1g of protein/pound of bodyweight
40% total calories as carbs
And the rest Fat.
My question is, what chemical role do carbohydrates play in muscle creation?
I'm not considering doing it, but is it possible to gain muscle while keeping carbs at a low level and making up the deficit with proteins and fats? Are carbs there mainly for energy to get good workouts?
0
Replies
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The mTOR signal pathway is a key on/off switch for gaining muscle. It is activated by insulin (and/or exercise, the combination of the two is really what you need to build muscle of any significance). Fat and fructose carbs have very little insulin response. Protein has some insulin response. Good ol fashioned high GI carbs have the highest insulin response and will activate the mTOR pathway most strongly.
Plus the obvious importance for fueling high intensity exercise.
Non-fructose carbs are arguably more important for muscle building than protein is.0 -
Bump0
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@waldo56 - (or anyone else)
What kind of high GI carbs do you find yourself eating in order to eat at your caloric goal?
ice cream and oreos'
beer
pizza
potatoes
rice
in pretty much that order.
Bagels….don't forget bagels. I think ice cream and bagels were my prime fuel source for my bulk
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@waldo56 - (or anyone else)
What kind of high GI carbs do you find yourself eating in order to eat at your caloric goal?
ice cream and oreos'
beer
pizza
potatoes
rice
in pretty much that order.
Bagels….don't forget bagels. I think ice cream and bagels were my prime fuel source for my bulk
Gummy bears? Jelly beans? C'mon man.....0 -
For me ice cream and breakfast cereal are my go-to for bulking carbs.
Though starting to dig bagels as well, they have quite a bit of tagalong protein.0 -
@waldo56 - (or anyone else)
What kind of high GI carbs do you find yourself eating in order to eat at your caloric goal?
ice cream and oreos'
beer
pizza
potatoes
rice
in pretty much that order.
Bagels….don't forget bagels. I think ice cream and bagels were my prime fuel source for my bulk
Gummy bears? Jelly beans? C'mon man.....
too much snacking- although I DO love me some jelly beans- I'm a strick "seasonal" candy eater- jelly beans and peeps for April- candy corn through october- girlscout cookies only in their season as well.
mmmhmm bagels- I do forget about them- I don't buy them eat them at home- but at work I will- or if I'm in a hurry YES>
Also I eat a lot of hoagies when I'm bulking if I can afford it (when I'm busy and need food) good stuff)
all the ice cream and oreos!!!!!
ALL THE TIME!!!!!0 -
all the ice cream and oreos!!!!!
The effect is enhanced when the oreos are in the ice cream. 0 -
Here's an excellent study on the topic:
"Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity"
http://www.jissn.com/content/4/1/180 -
I'm just in to hear more about the yummies for bulking... peanut butter poptart ice cream sammich...this too? O.O0
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I'm just in to hear more about the yummies for bulking... peanut butter poptart ice cream sammich...this too? O.O
Ha! You must have been on the Pop Tart thread, too! There is nothing that compares to the pop tart ice cream sandwich...0 -
In for knowledge!
...And sweet ice cream gainz.0 -
Body by waffles.0
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all the ice cream and oreos!!!!!
The effect is enhanced when the oreos are in the ice cream.
What if the ice cream is made with corn syrup?0 -
@waldo56 - (or anyone else)
What kind of high GI carbs do you find yourself eating in order to eat at your caloric goal?
ice cream and oreos'
beer
pizza
potatoes
rice
in pretty much that order.
Bagels….don't forget bagels. I think ice cream and bagels were my prime fuel source for my bulk
Gummy bears? Jelly beans? C'mon man.....
I'm confused why chocolate isn't on this list. Would have thought it was a given0 -
@waldo56 - (or anyone else)
What kind of high GI carbs do you find yourself eating in order to eat at your caloric goal?
ice cream and oreos'
beer
pizza
potatoes
rice
in pretty much that order.
You may want to switch 2 and 3; otherwise spot on
0 -
@waldo56 - (or anyone else)
What kind of high GI carbs do you find yourself eating in order to eat at your caloric goal?
ice cream and oreos'
beer
pizza
potatoes
rice
in pretty much that order.
Bagels….don't forget bagels. I think ice cream and bagels were my prime fuel source for my bulk
Gummy bears? Jelly beans? C'mon man.....
I'm confused why chocolate isn't on this list. Would have thought it was a given
When I mention Ice cream…..chocolate IS just a given 0 -
all the ice cream and oreos!!!!!
The effect is enhanced when the oreos are in the ice cream.
I agree with this!! I think it's been proven with science and stuff....0 -
King's Hawaiian bread and Poptarts.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
My fave go to carbs
Steamed white rice
Sweet potato
Cinnamon Toast Crunch cereal
Carb powder added to my protein drink0 -
You guys are so refreshing and it is nice to read a post about carbs that shows people still have a sense of humour (and don't think carbs are evil).0
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totally agree with this. I personally find I gain a lot more muscle when I eat carbsThe mTOR signal pathway is a key on/off switch for gaining muscle. It is activated by insulin (and/or exercise, the combination of the two is really what you need to build muscle of any significance). Fat and fructose carbs have very little insulin response. Protein has some insulin response. Good ol fashioned high GI carbs have the highest insulin response and will activate the mTOR pathway most strongly.
Plus the obvious importance for fueling high intensity exercise.
Non-fructose carbs are arguably more important for muscle building than protein is.0 -
I like cereal and rice as well. Also eat a lot of oatmeal and a good old fashioned baked potato.My fave go to carbs
Steamed white rice
Sweet potato
Cinnamon Toast Crunch cereal
Carb powder added to my protein drink0 -
The mTOR signal pathway is a key on/off switch for gaining muscle. It is activated by insulin (and/or exercise, the combination of the two is really what you need to build muscle of any significance). Fat and fructose carbs have very little insulin response. Protein has some insulin response. Good ol fashioned high GI carbs have the highest insulin response and will activate the mTOR pathway most strongly.
Plus the obvious importance for fueling high intensity exercise.
Non-fructose carbs are arguably more important for muscle building than protein is.
I love my carbs! Just remember, without protein and amino acids, there is no muscle building. Protein is more important than non fructose carbs in that regard...0 -
Are there any studies that have been done on the optimal amount of high GI carbs vs. low GI carbs for muscle building? (i.e. does the quality of the carb matter and is there a point of diminishing returns)0
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Are there any studies that have been done on the optimal amount of high GI carbs vs. low GI carbs for muscle building? (i.e. does the quality of the carb matter and is there a point of diminishing returns)
The glycemic index is bunk with no real world application. (Carb only meals in a fasted state??) A carb is a carb, and doesn't matter the source, especially in a bulk. Remeber though, protein builds muscle, so make sure to get adequate amounts. You can eat all the carbs you want, sans muscle protein synthesis you ain't building muscle.
The only diminishing returns is to continue to overthink things - Eat, Train, Sleep, Repeat0 -
Are there any studies that have been done on the optimal amount of high GI carbs vs. low GI carbs for muscle building? (i.e. does the quality of the carb matter and is there a point of diminishing returns)
The glycemic index is bunk with no real world application. (Carb only meals in a fasted state??) A carb is a carb, and doesn't matter the source, especially in a bulk. Remeber though, protein builds muscle, so make sure to get adequate amounts. You can eat all the carbs you want, sans muscle protein synthesis you ain't building muscle.
The only diminishing returns is to continue to overthink things - Eat, Train, Sleep, Repeat
This is not true at all.
Fructose must first be processed by the liver before it can be used by the muscles. Starches (quickly broken down into glucose during digestion) and glucose can be directly used by the muscles. Fructose by itself causes very little insulin reaction (honey is the closest thing to pure fructose that people regularly eat).
Insulin is THE key factor for turning on the mTOR pathway. Studies suggest that exercise alone can, but the effect is much weaker.
Protein is important, but not nearly to the degree it is often made out to (when bulking). The body is extremely efficient with protein when it isn't trying to eat itself. To build muscle you literally only need a few grams above and beyond maintenance. I'm not aware of a single study that shows any benefit whatsoever of an intake above 0.8g protein /lb LBM when bulking. At bulking food intakes, that should be quite easy for all but the poorest LBM estimators to hit. When cutting, that is when higher intakes are important.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to GI, but do differentiate between fructose and other carbs, because there is a difference.0 -
Are there any studies that have been done on the optimal amount of high GI carbs vs. low GI carbs for muscle building? (i.e. does the quality of the carb matter and is there a point of diminishing returns)
The glycemic index is bunk with no real world application. (Carb only meals in a fasted state??) A carb is a carb, and doesn't matter the source, especially in a bulk. Remeber though, protein builds muscle, so make sure to get adequate amounts. You can eat all the carbs you want, sans muscle protein synthesis you ain't building muscle.
The only diminishing returns is to continue to overthink things - Eat, Train, Sleep, Repeat
This is not true at all.
Fructose must first be processed by the liver before it can be used by the muscles. Starches (quickly broken down into glucose during digestion) and glucose can be directly used by the muscles. Fructose by itself causes very little insulin reaction (honey is the closest thing to pure fructose that people regularly eat).
Insulin is THE key factor for turning on the mTOR pathway. Studies suggest that exercise alone can, but the effect is much weaker.
Protein is important, but not nearly to the degree it is often made out to (when bulking). The body is extremely efficient with protein when it isn't trying to eat itself. To build muscle you literally only need a few grams above and beyond maintenance. I'm not aware of a single study that shows any benefit whatsoever of an intake above 0.8g protein /lb LBM when bulking. At bulking food intakes, that should be quite easy for all but the poorest LBM estimators to hit. When cutting, that is when higher intakes are important.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to GI, but do differentiate between fructose and other carbs, because there is a difference.
I never stated what amount of protein was beneficial, only that adequate protein intake is important. I didn't want the poster to focus on carb intake and forget protein altogether. I'm well aware of the studies, and I myself am usually around .86g-1g of protein/lb. LBM will be harder to accurately calculate without the use of bioelectrical impedance, hydrostatic weighing, DEXA or other more accurate instruments (calipers are not very accurate), so I side with caution and go with about 1g/lbs. The point I was making was if there isn't sufficient or adequate protein intake, even in a bulk, you are looking at less than optimal results. Carbs cannot be synthesized into amino acids to build muscle. Leucine is the key amino acid for stimulus of muscle protein synthesis.
As for fructose vs glucose, if you noticed I agreed with your earlier post a few posts back, but I was differentiating between high GI and low GI carbs in muscle building. Fructose is a poorer choice compared to glucose when it comes to replenishing muscle glycogen and signaling the mTOR pathway. However, studies show that protein is also as potent an insulin spiker as carbs, thus also signaling mTOR. Admittedly, the anabolic response will be slightly elevated when both protein and carbs are ingested.
Like you said though, unless you are totally unaware, in a bulk these shouldn't be an issue.0
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