Metabolic Damage? Low RMR

jsmommy1999

Hello. I have never posted a question on MFP although I have used it for about 5 years now. I am a runner and exercise 5-6 times a week (I am a bit of a cardio addict but have tried to add strength training). I am 5'6" and 110 (which I know sounds really low but I am very small boned and this has been a normal weight for me). In the past I have had a very high metabolism yet watched what I ate etc. Last year I went through a very high stress time in my life and increased exercise to 7 times a week. I dropped down in weight and my period stopped. So long story short I have been working with bio identical hormones to fix my periods, gained some weight and have tried to increase weight training - yet have known my metabolism was very slow. I just got my RMR tested at the hospital and it is low - 1000. It should be more around 1250 based on my height and weight - and previously I know it would have been much higher than that. I have had a very hard time maintaining my weight and just want to increase my metabolism back!!

Has anyone had luck with reversing metabolic damage and been able to get their metabolism back?

dollforlife

I too am having this problem it seems. After losing weight due to a medical issue last year I slowly put back on some of the weight. I got down to 116 lbs from 160 before I got sick. Which was perfect on my 5'1 frame. I'm only trying to lose that additional weight (20 lbs). But even with cutting my calories and working out 4 or 5 days a week ( I burn an average of 500 cal per session) I still can't lose weight. I'm not gaining anymore it just doesn't move. MFP has me on a 1200 calorie goal and I know most times I come in way under. Although as of yesterday I got closer...I'm wondering if I'm further sabotaging my metabolism by not making up the calories I burn from my workouts. Made an appointment with my Dr.to see what's going on. Until then I'm still looking for an answer. In the same boat. Feel free to add me.

TheFitnessTutor

High protein and Lift weights. Shorter but serious workouts. Ditch stuff like running and cardio. Just lift weights with less rest if you need to get that feel.

_Terrapin_

Hello. I have never posted a question on MFP although I have used it for about 5 years now. I am a runner and exercise 5-6 times a week (I am a bit of a cardio addict but have tried to add strength training). I am 5'6" and 110 (which I know sounds really low but I am very small boned and this has been a normal weight for me). In the past I have had a very high metabolism yet watched what I ate etc. Last year I went through a very high stress time in my life and increased exercise to 7 times a week. I dropped down in weight and my period stopped. So long story short I have been working with bio identical hormones to fix my periods, gained some weight and have tried to increase weight training - yet have known my metabolism was very slow. I just got my RMR tested at the hospital and it is low - 1000. It should be more around 1250 based on my height and weight - and previously I know it would have been much higher than that. I have had a very hard time maintaining my weight and just want to increase my metabolism back!!

Has anyone had luck with reversing metabolic damage and been able to get their metabolism back?

OP read the links provided.

metabolic damage/epair/starvation mode/triathlete gains 15 pounds---> 1st link http://www.exrx.net/Questions/StarvationEffect.html

2nd link--->http://www.metaboliceffect.com/metabolic-damage-symptoms/

dollforlife

Hello. I have never posted a question on MFP although I have used it for about 5 years now. I am a runner and exercise 5-6 times a week (I am a bit of a cardio addict but have tried to add strength training). I am 5'6" and 110 (which I know sounds really low but I am very small boned and this has been a normal weight for me). In the past I have had a very high metabolism yet watched what I ate etc. Last year I went through a very high stress time in my life and increased exercise to 7 times a week. I dropped down in weight and my period stopped. So long story short I have been working with bio identical hormones to fix my periods, gained some weight and have tried to increase weight training - yet have known my metabolism was very slow. I just got my RMR tested at the hospital and it is low - 1000. It should be more around 1250 based on my height and weight - and previously I know it would have been much higher than that. I have had a very hard time maintaining my weight and just want to increase my metabolism back!!

Has anyone had luck with reversing metabolic damage and been able to get their metabolism back?

Found this very helpful. Give it a read when you have time. Echoes the advice from TheFitnessTut.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/208407-how-to-repair-a-damaged-metabolism-stavation-mode

shining_light

High protein and Lift weights. Shorter but serious workouts. Ditch stuff like running and cardio. Just lift weights with less rest if you need to get that feel.

Why ditch cardio if the OP says they enjoy it? The best workout is the one you'll do. I do agree that lifting weight with short rest feels awesome, but running gives me a totally different kind of high from intense weightlifting. Weightlifting is definitely a really good way to boost your RMR, though. I remember when I was weightlifting regularly and intensely 3 days a week, I was eating 600 calories a day more than I do now and still maintaining my weight.

ETA: Also, why do we refer to it as metabolic "damage"? It's an evolutionary adaptation and part of how your body is supposed to work. It's an efficient machine. A reduction in metabolic rate is what happens as you lose weight because 1) you have less mass that requires calories to maintain itself, and 2) your body gets more efficient at using calories during exercise(running is a good example) when it's don frequently. "Damage" is not the right word. The human body is designed to work in this manner.

Crash7676

High protein and Lift weights. Shorter but serious workouts. Ditch stuff like running and cardio. Just lift weights with less rest if you need to get that feel.

^^this is a tough thing for women to get our minds around. But this is what my personal trainer is recommending to me also.
Us women have been told "lower calories" and "cardio cardio cardio" all along, but muscle is the key to metabolism, I think.

Mischievous_Rascal

High protein and Lift weights. Shorter but serious workouts. Ditch stuff like running and cardio. Just lift weights with less rest if you need to get that feel.

^^this is a tough thing for women to get our minds around. But this is what my personal trainer is recommending to me also.
Us women have been told "lower calories" and "cardio cardio cardio" all along, but muscle is the key to metabolism, I think.

I think so, too. In my experience, when I stopped the all out cardio and began resistance training instead, my TDEE went from around 1600 to over 2400. I also weigh more, but fit into smaller clothes. Win/win.

And doing strength training with less rest between sets raises your heart rate, gets you sweaty and makes you feel bada$$. Another big win.

ruthejp13

Based on a variety of clinical studies here is some interesting news:
* Reducing calories below 1000 per day on average slows metabolism by 16%
* Exercising 30 minutes at 300 calories actually burned 550 calories but exercising 60 minutes at 600 calories only burned 480 calories
* High-fat, low-carb diet gave a 300 calorie/day metabolic advantage.
So basically, eat less and exercise more isn't necessarily true. Your body doesn't know math.

3dogsrunning

You can check out this person's experience
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/919536-get-your-metabolic-rate-tested-my-metabolic-reset-story?hl=get+rmr+tested+my+metabolic+reset

sheltol

You can educate yourself by googling Layne Norton+Metabolic Damage. He has several youtube videos on the subject. He has a doctorate in Nutritional Sciences, he trains bodybuilders, and was a professional bodybuilder himself.

The amount of cardio you are doing combined with the low caloric diet can really wreck havoc on your body. Watch the videos but you basically need to do is up your caloric intake slowly over a period of time. In one video he mentions that the repair can take nearly as long as the amount of time you've been on a lot of cardio with limited calories.

It's a tough cycle to break when society is so programed to eat less to lose weight. And honestly, you may gain weight initially and you need to trust in what you are doing. Best of luck to you.

Mocha02

You can educate yourself by googling Layne Norton+Metabolic Damage. He has several youtube videos on the subject. He has a doctorate in Nutritional Sciences, he trains bodybuilders, and was a professional bodybuilder himself.

The amount of cardio you are doing combined with the low caloric diet can really wreck havoc on your body. Watch the videos but you basically need to do is up your caloric intake slowly over a period of time. In one video he mentions that the repair can take nearly as long as the amount of time you've been on a lot of cardio with limited calories.

It's a tough cycle to break when society is so programed to eat less to lose weight. And honestly, you may gain weight initially and you need to trust in what you are doing. Best of luck to you.

This ^^ I love and respect Dr. Layne Norton!

BurntCoffee

You can educate yourself by googling Layne Norton+Metabolic Damage. He has several youtube videos on the subject. He has a doctorate in Nutritional Sciences, he trains bodybuilders, and was a professional bodybuilder himself.

The amount of cardio you are doing combined with the low caloric diet can really wreck havoc on your body. Watch the videos but you basically need to do is up your caloric intake slowly over a period of time. In one video he mentions that the repair can take nearly as long as the amount of time you've been on a lot of cardio with limited calories.

It's a tough cycle to break when society is so programed to eat less to lose weight. And honestly, you may gain weight initially and you need to trust in what you are doing. Best of luck to you.

Thank you for sharing this. I've never heard of him. I just watched the metabolic damage video and it's wonderful. Now I just don't know where to aim for as a minimum calorie intake. I yo-yo'd my way into this disaster. I'm currently eating between 800-1200 calories a day. I lost 16 lbs then suddenly gained 7 back once I started going to the gym. I keep losing and regaining those same 7 lbs now. I am going to slowly increase my calories like he mentions here and attempt teaching myself how to do the high intensity interval training. And I guess I really need to get my butt over to the weights. It is just so sad that I did all of this to myself. I started out at 16 with a diet doctor that gave me phen phen (fen fen, whatever). It went downhill from there. I really hope I can fix this.

Good luck to the OP as well. I love when people post questions like this and the community really offers such great advice. Thanks!

Mandy

heybales

And here is study showing it can start to recover too, not just the RMR like that good case study someone already posted, but the overall metabolic efficiency that lowers your TDEE below what it could be.

Basically eating at maintenance, and pushing that level up slowly but surely.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales/view/reduced-metabolism-tdee-beyond-expected-from-weight-loss-616251

And always be aware of water weight and fat weight, and how to tell the difference.

You would have to eat 250 calories over real potential TDEE or maintenance (you are currently at suppressed TDEE though) for 2 weeks, with no increase to metabolism during that whole time - to gain 1 pound of fat. Or if lifting, some muscle too.

Reread that to remove some fear.

If you gain faster or more weight, it's water weight, and it just proves you were at suppressed maintenance or TDEE.

Why?

Because at that level, your body never tops of glycogen stores, always depleted by some amount depending on how big the potential deficit is. But you eating even just slightly more it finally can add more, and that stores with water - hence fast water weight.

But it's cellular water weight, which increases RMR too as it is LBM. This isn't sodium retain water that does next to nothing but add weight.

So take whatever your average net or gross eating level is, and add 100 calories daily for a week. That would take 35 days to gain 1 lb of above true maintenance, which it isn't at this point.

Because while you may be maintaining weight currently, and could even be at goal weight, you get a whole lot less out of exercise with your body in that state.
Because if it's already suppressed your system to deal with not getting enough food, it's not about to make improvements that require even more energy it's not getting.

Usually nobody wants to waste their time doing workouts.

jsmommy1999

Thanks for all of the replies!! Does anyone know where to find a comprehensive plan for metabolic recovery? Also I am going to get a physical trainer for a while as I am clueless about weight training aside from doing some reps with weights or using the machines. What kind of questions would I ask to make sure I find a trainer who is experienced in metabolism issues?

heybales

Thanks for all of the replies!! Does anyone know where to find a comprehensive plan for metabolic recovery? Also I am going to get a physical trainer for a while as I am clueless about weight training aside from doing some reps with weights or using the machines. What kind of questions would I ask to make sure I find a trainer who is experienced in metabolism issues?

Comprehensive plan (as that study showed).

Eat at maintenance for months.

There's really not much to it. Don't try to lose. And this is not potential maintenance that calculators give you, because those aren't valid right now with suppressed maintenance.
This is based on your actual results. With current eating level apparently being maintenance.

As metabolism heals, you then eat more.

Then again, since you don't get lab measured TDEE all the time, and even that RMR test frequently might be overkill, just eat slightly more on constant basis.

I already laid it out in my post above, might reread. You merely need to know how much in total you've been eating for past month.
And then start using MFP correctly.

Someone else posted a link that discussed one person's test case and specifics too, must have missed it. It was on exrx.net site.


Don't even try to get a trainer in to nutrition stuff, that would be like asking your car mechanic about noise your dishwasher is making.
Use them for what they are there for, exercise. The amount of myth's and disproven bro-science I've overheard from trainers at the gym is incredible. Even those that did get in to metabolism and nutrition studies years ago - have not kept recent and don't have to. Unless a personal hobby. But how would you know.
So just avoid the topic with them and huge grain of salt if they get in to it.

But good plan getting help on lifting.
But instead of just adding more exercise for a body already under stress - you need to back off other exercise - trade, don't add.
Actually, decrease.

waldo56

I'm helping my wife with this right now. Seems to be going great.

The overall plan (regular strength training is part of the workout plan):

Step 1 - Jump to just under what your maintenance calculates to be. She had been barely losing 0.5lb/wk for a few months, which was well under what is expected for her body (and it notably dropped over time), she had been cutting a long time (>1 yr). So step 1 was to raise cals +200.

Step 2 - Start walking maintenance up. From that starting point, each week she's been tacking on +50 cals. Has had a recomp effect throughout; some of her most dramatic week to week changes on the tape happened early on in this process (though not seen on the scale). She's up to +500 total now, right about back to normal for her ht/wt, no sign yet of any weight gain whatsoever.

Step 3 - Once there is a clear sign of some weight gain (scale going up more than normal fluctuations AND measurements starting to increase, even slightly), the weekly cal increases are going to be dropped to +25.

This is a time consuming process, but if you are regularly strength training, expect a fairly strong recomp effect and if you stick with it you can have your metabolism running extremely hot, so that the fat just melts away with ease when you try to cut once again.

Reverse dieting like this is basically microbulking; bulking where the goal is metabolism gain with as little corresponding muscle/fat gain as possible. Regular bulking has the same effect; spend some time bulking and you eventually have to eat like a lion to gain anything whatsoever, but it also comes with muscle and fat gain.

Yagisama

You can educate yourself by googling Layne Norton+Metabolic Damage. He has several youtube videos on the subject. He has a doctorate in Nutritional Sciences, he trains bodybuilders, and was a professional bodybuilder himself.

The amount of cardio you are doing combined with the low caloric diet can really wreck havoc on your body. Watch the videos but you basically need to do is up your caloric intake slowly over a period of time. In one video he mentions that the repair can take nearly as long as the amount of time you've been on a lot of cardio with limited calories.

It's a tough cycle to break when society is so programed to eat less to lose weight. And honestly, you may gain weight initially and you need to trust in what you are doing. Best of luck to you.

Watched a video where he said some people were doing 2 hour cardio but they were essentially no burning any calories doing so. Does not compute for me.

jsmommy1999

Thanks so much for the response. So you said eat at maintenance - and since I know my real RMR is 100 instead of 1260 like the calculators say I would eat at the maintenance that they gave me at the hospital - which was 1008 to 1308. How long do I eat at this before staring to increase the calories? Also can I do any cardio at all during this period? Or is there a type of cardio (like say rowing) that includes strength training. I suffer from anxiety disorder and the cardio has been the only thing that helped in the past.

Also when people say strength training are they just talking about lifting weights or is it other things like HIIT or plyometrics?

jsmommy1999

Thanks again for your post. I am going to get a personal trainer for the lifting part. So I will eat at maintenance (not what MFP tells me but based on the lower number the doctor gave me). I know I should cut out cardio - is there any kind that I can do such as the Jacobs Ladder machine or Rowing? I have an anxiety disorder and cardio has been one of my meds for a long time - I'm afraid that without it I am going to go into a hard crash. Also I am confused about strength training. If I lift for an hour do I give myself more calories that day?

Again Thank you So Much!!!

Ann

jsmommy1999

Sorry I am new to this board - I thought those questions would be sent to specific people!!

_Terrapin_

Thanks for all of the replies!! Does anyone know where to find a comprehensive plan for metabolic recovery? Also I am going to get a physical trainer for a while as I am clueless about weight training aside from doing some reps with weights or using the machines. What kind of questions would I ask to make sure I find a trainer who is experienced in metabolism issues?

So, first and foremost get blood work completed to rule out 1. Diabetes and 2. Hypothyroidism

If neither are present, then yes, metabolic recovery is possible, and relatively quickly according to most of the above links provided; somewhere between 6-10 weeks. Once you know your maintenance number, weekly increases of 100 calories are again the standard according to the links above.

The link I provided about the 51 year old training for triatholons and marathons revealed their total caloric intake was around 1,000. If you read their training regime you'll gain a better understanding of what happened and why.

As far as questions to ask a trainer: #1 If you(OP) want to continue cardio and are in metabolic repair, what is 'safe' to do during this period. #2 Frequency and amount of caloric intake until metabolic damage has been repaired #3 Do they have a way to measure this effectively? #4 Blood work done when and why

Hope this helps.

yopeeps025

High protein and Lift weights. Shorter but serious workouts. Ditch stuff like running and cardio. Just lift weights with less rest if you need to get that feel.

Correct would you say frequent eating also raise metabolic rate.?

sheltol

Thanks for all of the replies!! Does anyone know where to find a comprehensive plan for metabolic recovery? Also I am going to get a physical trainer for a while as I am clueless about weight training aside from doing some reps with weights or using the machines. What kind of questions would I ask to make sure I find a trainer who is experienced in metabolism issues?

Comprehensive plan (as that study showed).

Eat at maintenance for months.

There's really not much to it. Don't try to lose. And this is not potential maintenance that calculators give you, because those aren't valid right now with suppressed maintenance.
This is based on your actual results. With current eating level apparently being maintenance.

As metabolism heals, you then eat more.

Then again, since you don't get lab measured TDEE all the time, and even that RMR test frequently might be overkill, just eat slightly more on constant basis.

I already laid it out in my post above, might reread. You merely need to know how much in total you've been eating for past month.
And then start using MFP correctly.

Someone else posted a link that discussed one person's test case and specifics too, must have missed it. It was on exrx.net site.


Don't even try to get a trainer in to nutrition stuff, that would be like asking your car mechanic about noise your dishwasher is making.
Use them for what they are there for, exercise. The amount of myth's and disproven bro-science I've overheard from trainers at the gym is incredible. Even those that did get in to metabolism and nutrition studies years ago - have not kept recent and don't have to. Unless a personal hobby. But how would you know.
So just avoid the topic with them and huge grain of salt if they get in to it.

But good plan getting help on lifting.
But instead of just adding more exercise for a body already under stress - you need to back off other exercise - trade, don't add.
Actually, decrease.

I totally agree with the comment about not getting a personal trainer involved with nutriton issues. There are excellent trainers with advanced knowledge of nutrition and then there are those who studied 9 months at home and got a certificate. There can be a huge difference in edication and experience. I would recommend seeking out a sports nutritionist. Try a sports care rehab facility. Some great advice from a couple people here though on what you need to do.

yopeeps025

http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/truth-about-metabolic-damage

heybales

High protein and Lift weights. Shorter but serious workouts. Ditch stuff like running and cardio. Just lift weights with less rest if you need to get that feel.

Correct would you say frequent eating also raise metabolic rate.?

No. Same raise in metabolic rate to process food if done in several big meals or many small meals.

That merely assists compliance, or helps if diabetic or pre issue exists, but not normally.

heybales

You can educate yourself by googling Layne Norton+Metabolic Damage. He has several youtube videos on the subject. He has a doctorate in Nutritional Sciences, he trains bodybuilders, and was a professional bodybuilder himself.

The amount of cardio you are doing combined with the low caloric diet can really wreck havoc on your body. Watch the videos but you basically need to do is up your caloric intake slowly over a period of time. In one video he mentions that the repair can take nearly as long as the amount of time you've been on a lot of cardio with limited calories.

It's a tough cycle to break when society is so programed to eat less to lose weight. And honestly, you may gain weight initially and you need to trust in what you are doing. Best of luck to you.

Watched a video where he said some people were doing 2 hour cardio but they were essentially no burning any calories doing so. Does not compute for me.

No extra calories compared to where they would have been without.

At the start they would have been, but the stressed body made adjusts, slowed down all other daily activity so burning less then, got more metabolically efficient on everything.

So the workout might have burned say 1000 calories, but left the person so wasted rest the day, they didn't do a normal 500 calories worth of moving around they would have done.

So the workout only added 500 to the day.

And while that slow effect was happening, body also made everything more efficient, or slowed down some stuff.

By the end state, in essence, compared to before - the exercise was adding nothing to the day.

heybales

Thanks so much for the response. So you said eat at maintenance - and since I know my real RMR is 100 instead of 1260 like the calculators say I would eat at the maintenance that they gave me at the hospital - which was 1008 to 1308. How long do I eat at this before staring to increase the calories? Also can I do any cardio at all during this period? Or is there a type of cardio (like say rowing) that includes strength training. I suffer from anxiety disorder and the cardio has been the only thing that helped in the past.

Also when people say strength training are they just talking about lifting weights or is it other things like HIIT or plyometrics?

HIIT is as close to a lifting response as you'll get from cardio. It's for cardio only folks that don't want to lift to get close to same benefit.

But do the real thing, skip the HIIT, actually lift.


You are misunderstanding some terms.

Your BMR as calculated on age, weight, height could be about 1260 likely.

They measured your RMR around 1000.

RMR is 150-250 above BMR.
So your actual BMR is even lower than 1000.

Your maintenance is NOT going to be barely above RMR. Which is what you burn burn resting all day exactly like in the test.

Don't go off estimates, go off what you have actually been eating.
Look at your average the past month. Skip days you didn't log because of binges or similar.

Eat 100 more than that.

For cardio, do it after the lifting which is 3 x weekly, for upwards of 40 min if calm, 20 min if you just need intense for anxiety.
Walking only for inbetween days.

The strength training needs to be progressive overload routine. It needs to be heavy for you for 3 sets and 8 - 12 reps, such that the last few reps of last set are very difficult.

That is the ONLY way of telling the body you want to get stronger. Eventually existing muscle won't be able to keep going heavier, so more must be made.

So if the trainer wants to do these silly light weights balancing on a ball or such, ask to learn to do free weights, don't even waste time on what many do as standard intro exercises.
You need to be using the biggest muscles first in compound moves involving the whole body.
If they start with triceps and biceps, tell them they are about to be fired and get serious.

12by311

High protein and Lift weights. Shorter but serious workouts. Ditch stuff like running and cardio. Just lift weights with less rest if you need to get that feel.

Correct would you say frequent eating also raise metabolic rate.?

No. Same raise in metabolic rate to process food if done in several big meals or many small meals.

That merely assists compliance, or helps if diabetic or pre issue exists, but not normally.

Just want to quote this because your response is worded so very well.

12by311

I'm helping my wife with this right now. Seems to be going great.

The overall plan (regular strength training is part of the workout plan):

Step 1 - Jump to just under what your maintenance calculates to be. She had been barely losing 0.5lb/wk for a few months, which was well under what is expected for her body (and it notably dropped over time), she had been cutting a long time (>1 yr). So step 1 was to raise cals +200.

Step 2 - Start walking maintenance up. From that starting point, each week she's been tacking on +50 cals. Has had a recomp effect throughout; some of her most dramatic week to week changes on the tape happened early on in this process (though not seen on the scale). She's up to +500 total now, right about back to normal for her ht/wt, no sign yet of any weight gain whatsoever.

Step 3 - Once there is a clear sign of some weight gain (scale going up more than normal fluctuations AND measurements starting to increase, even slightly), the weekly cal increases are going to be dropped to +25.

This is a time consuming process, but if you are regularly strength training, expect a fairly strong recomp effect and if you stick with it you can have your metabolism running extremely hot, so that the fat just melts away with ease when you try to cut once again.

Reverse dieting like this is basically microbulking; bulking where the goal is metabolism gain with as little corresponding muscle/fat gain as possible. Regular bulking has the same effect; spend some time bulking and you eventually have to eat like a lion to gain anything whatsoever, but it also comes with muscle and fat gain.

Great to hear about her experience and progress with this. Good info.

jsmommy1999

I can't believe the amount of great information that people have been giving me on this subject - I really can't thank you enough!! Not to keep asking questions here but I have been looking over my food diary and it looks like my "net" calories have been somewhere around 1000-1200. However this is after subtracting exercise which I have been giving myself about 500 calories for (based on heart rate calculators). No doubt I am not really burning that much due to my body's current status.

How do I calculate calories burned for exercise? If I am not burning optimally I am probably not getting the most calories out of my workouts either. And if I am doing just strength training do I get calories back for that or do I have to lift on 1100 calories a day?

Sorry, this is very confusing.

Thanks,
Ann