Quesion on cardio vs lifting

ronbo62098

I realize the topic of cardio vs weight training can get "heated", but I have a specific question I'm hoping someone with more biology/medical knowledge than I have can help me with.

The purpose of lifting is to build muscle. OK - I get that. The exertion causes muscle damage that, when repairing, the body builds more muscle. My question is, how is cardio different?

My personal example:
When I lift (specifically squats and leg presses), my legs get totally exhausted. By the end of the session, my legs are wobbly and the next day they are sore. All expected.
When I do a round of cardio on the elliptical, I "feel" the same thing. My legs are wiped, I can barely walk back down to the locker room, and the next day I get the same (feeling) of soreness.

So, my question: was muscle built doing the cardio? If not, what's the difference (biologically) between what is happening with the lifting vs what is happening with the elliptical?

spmcavoy1

I think a pertinent piece of information is missing - What level of resistance do you have on the elliptical?

fooninie

I'm very curious about the responses you will get. I run and lift (I do sprints, short and long distances and lift pretty heavy - for a girl ). I never have the same soreness from running as I do from lifting, ever.

ronbo62098

I think a pertinent piece of information is missing - What level of resistance do you have on the elliptical?

Well, the numbers are 4/1 and 10/8, but those are just numbers on that particular machine. I do 2 min intervals of 4 incline 1 resistance and 10 incline 8 resistance. The 4/1 is like being on a treadmill, the 10/8 is like running through very deep mud. Also, it varies - if I'm feeling great, I'll up the 4/1 a lot. If I'm really sluggish, I'll drop the 10/8 for the last 10 in or so (65 min workout).

Leg presses and squats also vary, but the numbers are more concrete. For squats (kettlebell), I do 20-45 pounds, again depending on how strong I'm feeling that day. Leg presses are always 90 pounds plus machine bar & contraption weight (estimate another 50 pounds).

JoRocka

cardiovascular.

it's main purpose is to challenge your cardiovascular system.

I'm not sure how long have you been working out- but after a while the wobbly leg/sore tired feeling goes away on running longer distance type events.

unless you are drastically changing through intervals or fartleks and sprinting or hill work- eventually your muscles adapt to the running- and the work becomes all focused on the heart/lungs.

You're body will adapt to weight training as well if you do not challenge it and move on to a harder/heavier variation.

ronbo62098

I get the difference in definition. Cardio is for cardio, weight training is for muscles. I know that eventually, any exercise will "get easier" as your muscles develop. My question is about that muscle development in the first place.

I have read it here (and other fitness sites) over and over (and even implied in your response) that "cardio is for cardio and lifting is for muscles" and "you can't build muscle doing cardio". What I haven't ever seen is a complete explanation of "why".

Squats is pushing the leg muscles using resistance (weight + gravity).
Elliptical is pushing the leg muscles using resistance (settings on the machine).

Why would the first one build muscle and the second one not?

teresamwhite

I'm interested in finding this out...

My initial thought is cardio, even with the incline, you are still only carrying your own body weight -something you do all day long. WIth Weight training you are adding the weights to that.

KarenJanine

I'm interested to see answers, but from what I can determine, it relates to different muscle fibre types being recruited for different types of exercise and neural adaptations that result from weight training: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/muscle-hypertrophy-physiology-how-to-lift-weights-maximize-mass.htm

JoRocka

I get the difference in definition. Cardio is for cardio, weight training is for muscles. I know that eventually, any exercise will "get easier" as your muscles develop. My question is about that muscle development in the first place.

I have read it here (and other fitness sites) over and over (and even implied in your response) that "cardio is for cardio and lifting is for muscles" and "you can't build muscle doing cardio". What I haven't ever seen is a complete explanation of "why".

Squats is pushing the leg muscles using resistance (weight + gravity).
Elliptical is pushing the leg muscles using resistance (settings on the machine).

Why would the first one build muscle and the second one not?

if you have NEVER run- you will build muscle doing cardio.

But the bulk of people are doing steady state cardio and are not challenging their body enough to grow.

If you are progressively loading the muscle- then yes it will get stronger- but 1.) most peopled do not challenge the muscle enough and 2.) the challenge at some point even's out and is not enough

and the elliptical is never going to challenge you the same weigh as add weight will.

Maybe to start- but ultimately it's just not the same thing- you will reach your max capacity on the elliptical- you're body is amazing at adapting.

maizerage66

JoRocka is right. If you're either out of shape, have weak legs, or are running and walking on inclines for the first time, then your legs are not used to it and are probably building muscle based on this new activity that you are doing. However, you can only do so much running and have so much of an incline before your legs become used to it, and then it becomes strictly cardiovascular. Lifting weights is always about adding more weights to keep it challenging, and there are more variations of leg exercises than running and ellpticals have.

runningagainstmyself

I'm very curious about the responses you will get. I run and lift (I do sprints, short and long distances and lift pretty heavy - for a girl ). I never have the same soreness from running as I do from lifting, ever.

I am curious, too, because I have had equivalent amounts of soreness on various parts of my body (not just my legs) when I do distance running as I have had when lifting. There is more variation that can be done for sure, and I doubt anyone is disputing that, but depending on the cardio that you're engaging in -- such as TurboFire vs. distance running -- would that not count as resistance training with the kind of work one is putting into it?

Dear MFPverse: EDUCATE ME!!!! (please)

SusanaLdn

I don't really have an answer to your question, but one thing occurred to me when I thought about the idea of running/building muscle, and it is perfectly represented in this photo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BHnMRiwCUAAgdgN.jpg . Sorry, not sure how to pst. Clearly, running does not build muscle (not 'serious' muscle), but I hope someone else can explain why.

runningagainstmyself

JoRocka is right. If you're either out of shape, have weak legs, or are running and walking on inclines for the first time, then your legs are not used to it and are probably building muscle based on this new activity that you are doing. However, you can only do so much running and have so much of an incline before your legs become used to it, and then it becomes strictly cardiovascular. Lifting weights is always about adding more weights to keep it challenging, and there are more variations of leg exercises than running and ellpticals have.

I disagree with that, up to a point. If you are running the same route at the same pace over and over and over again, then sure, of course it becomes cardiovascular. But if you are training for a race, or constantly changing up your route with hill and speed routines, or engaging in interval sprints, what have you -- I am really skeptical that this can only count as exclusively cardiovascular, because your body is never completely accustomed to what you are doing in your exercise routine.

Jerseygrrl

I get the difference in definition. Cardio is for cardio, weight training is for muscles. I know that eventually, any exercise will "get easier" as your muscles develop. My question is about that muscle development in the first place.

I have read it here (and other fitness sites) over and over (and even implied in your response) that "cardio is for cardio and lifting is for muscles" and "you can't build muscle doing cardio". What I haven't ever seen is a complete explanation of "why".

Squats is pushing the leg muscles using resistance (weight + gravity).
Elliptical is pushing the leg muscles using resistance (settings on the machine).

Why would the first one build muscle and the second one not?

I look at it like this - they are both building muscle initially. However, if you never "add weight" to either one, you will stop building muscle regardless of what you're doing.
If you only ever squat with the bar, and never add additional weight, you'll stop building muscle. By adding weight to the bar, you add muscle. With cardio, you're not adding weight. While you may add some resistance for a while, ultimately, you'll max out on that.
Weight training does not significantly work your heart and lungs, whereas cardio does. While you may breathe a little harder while you're doing a heavy squat, you're not building cardiovascular endurance like you are on the eliptical. So, the cardiovascular workout is really, in the end, for your cardiovascular endurance.
The weight training - increasing the weight load incrementally - is building muscle, but it's not doing much for your cardiovascular endurance.

DavPul

....I have read it here (and other fitness sites) over and over (and even implied in your response) that "cardio is for cardio and lifting is for muscles" and "you can't build muscle doing cardio". What I haven't ever seen is a complete explanation of "why".

Squats is pushing the leg muscles using resistance (weight + gravity).
Elliptical is pushing the leg muscles using resistance (settings on the machine).....

because you aren't challenging your muscles in a way that stresses them to grow or get stronger. if you are completely untrained, you would be challenged initially by the elliptical but it won't last for very long. just like if you spent the last 3 years in a coma you would build leg muscles simply by walking. but once you're past that beginning stage, you're only building endurance, not strength or mass.

even on it's hardest setting, you'd be able to push the elliptical pedals for several, perhaps even dozens of minutes, until your heart/lungs were exhausted. doing a set of heavy squats, you'd only be able to mange several, perhaps even dozens of *seconds*, until you were forced to stop because your *legs* were exhausted.

kdiamond

Agreed with others. Your body will eventually get used to it as you get in better shape. And there's nothing wrong with it. But you're not going to build muscle doing cardio. You can lean out, but it won't build new muscle.

rondaj05

In for info!

cwolfman13

Type I muscle fibers are being trained during your aerobic workout...Type II muscle fibers are being trained when you do resistance training with low to moderate rep ranges and relatively heavy weights. Type II muscle fibers can be broken down into 2A and 2B with type 2B fibers being responsible for explosive movements as you would see in Olympic type lifts like a clean and jerk or snatch and 2A for short to moderate duration, moderate to high intensity work as seen in most lifting routines.

Galatea_Stone

Type I muscle fibers are being trained during your aerobic workout...Type II muscle fibers are being trained when you do resistance training with low to moderate rep ranges and relatively heavy weights. Type II muscle fibers can be broken down into 2A and 2B with type 2B fibers being responsible for explosive movements as you would see in Olympic type lifts like a clean and jerk or snatch and 2A for short to moderate duration, moderate to high intensity work as seen in most lifting routines.

Agreed. Type 1 is sometimes called slow twitch; Type 2 fast twitch. Slow twitch is generally a smaller fiber and responds to steady-state endurance training, usually by becoming stronger without much change in size. Fast twitch responds to sprints and strength training.

It takes a lot to get Type 1 muscle fibers to grow. Examples are world class cyclists, marathoners, etc. These people will have greater percentages of slow twitch fibers and may gain some size from the long endurance racing, generally in the lower body, where the muscles are taxed more. For most of the population, routine cardio endurance is too little to make the muscles grow beyond a certain point. Unless you're running marathons regularly, riding bikes in long endurance races, etc., you're not going to see much in the way of Type 1 growth.

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

Some people are genetically predisposed to one type of muscle fiber over another.

JoRocka

well- unless you are lifting explosively (I do not typically) I still don't think you are hitting those fast twitch muscles. That type of training applies to lifting and running. I don't think you can just say 'cardio' hits slow and 'weights hit fast' (or vice versa) because you can train fast twitch with running and lifting- same as you can train slow twitch with weights and running... unless I'm totally completely mis-reading this.

I'm very curious about the responses you will get. I run and lift (I do sprints, short and long distances and lift pretty heavy - for a girl ). I never have the same soreness from running as I do from lifting, ever.

I kind of missed this point in responding to the OP. But I think it's important to not quantify or try to explain away your work.

There is no "lifting heavy for a girl" vs lifting heavy for a guy.

I'f you are safely but working hard at lifting from 0-5 or 5-10 depending on goals and diet- that qualifies as heavy.

It doesn't matter your age- ability or gender.

It's heavy.

Never excuse your hard work.

unless you aren't working hard.

Angie80281

Following to read later.

Galatea_Stone

well- unless you are lifting explosively (I do not typically) I still don't think you are hitting those fast twitch muscles. That type of training applies to lifting and running. I don't think you can just say 'cardio' hits slow and 'weights hit fast' (or vice versa) because you can train fast twitch with running and lifting- same as you can train slow twitch with weights and running... unless I'm totally completely mis-reading this.

I'm very curious about the responses you will get. I run and lift (I do sprints, short and long distances and lift pretty heavy - for a girl ). I never have the same soreness from running as I do from lifting, ever.

I kind of missed this point in responding to the OP. But I think it's important to not quantify or try to explain away your work.

There is no "lifting heavy for a girl" vs lifting heavy for a guy.

I'f you are safely but working hard at lifting from 0-5 or 5-10 depending on goals and diet- that qualifies as heavy.

It doesn't matter your age- ability or gender.

It's heavy.

Never excuse your hard work.

unless you aren't working hard.

I think wolfman13's separation of the fast twitch A and B is pretty good and to the point. Type A is activated predominantly through hypertrophic lifting. B through powerlifting, plyometrics, intervals and sprints. Slow twitch is generally an endurance/cardio developed muscle, or oxidative muscle, almost exclusively. World class marathoners can have an 80/20 ratio. Just as powerlifters and Olympic lifters have far higher ratios of fast twitch to slow twitch fibers.

Bodybuilders primarily develop fast twitch (type 2B) fibers. Power lifters and Olympic lifters and world class sprinters develop fast twitch (type 2A) fibers. Distance runners develop slow twitch.

alathIN

I am an SBR person - swim, bike, run - and don't do much lifting (usually only to target an area of weakness that is adversely affecting my SBR).

But I do notice that SBR can challenge me in both ways. Depending on the workout and how I'm challenging myself, I may find that the muscular effort is easy and it's the cardio that limits my performance. But it's certainly possible to do SBR workouts - which we'd normally think of as cardio - that challenge us in muscular strength. In running, my group does a "hill bounding" workout that creates a very weight-lifting-like muscular burn and next day soreness. Same thing with sprint workouts in the pool. This is particularly true when you make a technqiue change that starts working different muscle groups or engaging muscles that were less active.

So, yes, it is perfectly possible to get sore muscles from cardio workouts. It just means you challenged your muscular strength in addition to your aerobic capacity.

MeanderingMammal

...and it is perfectly represented in this photo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BHnMRiwCUAAgdgN.jpg . Sorry, not sure how to pst. Clearly, running does not build muscle (not 'serious' muscle), but I hope someone else can explain why.

I'd challenge the suggestion that those are the results of equivalent training. The runner has no quad definition and no calf/ shin differentiation, never mind being fairly small in the muscle department anyway. Clearly as a comparison there is no presentation frm the runner compared to the lifter.

Anyone doing serious running is going to be doing long steady state, higher speed, higher intensity intervals and hillwork. They'll lead to better results than that.

That siad, a serious runner will also be doing some resistance work to complement the running anyway, so it's unlikely to be a like for like comparison anyway.

ronbo62098

Type I muscle fibers are being trained during your aerobic workout...Type II muscle fibers are being trained when you do resistance training with low to moderate rep ranges and relatively heavy weights. Type II muscle fibers can be broken down into 2A and 2B with type 2B fibers being responsible for explosive movements as you would see in Olympic type lifts like a clean and jerk or snatch and 2A for short to moderate duration, moderate to high intensity work as seen in most lifting routines.

Agreed. Type 1 is sometimes called slow twitch; Type 2 fast twitch. Slow twitch is generally a smaller fiber and responds to steady-state endurance training, usually by becoming stronger without much change in size. Fast twitch responds to sprints and strength training.

It takes a lot to get Type 1 muscle fibers to grow. Examples are world class cyclists, marathoners, etc. These people will have greater percentages of slow twitch fibers and may gain some size from the long endurance racing, generally in the lower body, where the muscles are taxed more. For most of the population, routine cardio endurance is too little to make the muscles grow beyond a certain point. Unless you're running marathons regularly, riding bikes in long endurance races, etc., you're not going to see much in the way of Type 1 growth.

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

Some people are genetically predisposed to one type of muscle fiber over another.

Thanks for all the replies. The fast twitch / slow twitch definition is what I was looking for. Given that, and given your second to last sentence, building muscle IS possible on an elliptical if you are doing HIIT.

OK, granted, I'm doing the "old fat guy" version of HIIT, but for my fitness level, that's what you get.

tashdownunder

It'sx lactic acid that is causing your legs to feel 'wobbly' after cardio training. Lactic acid is produced when you tain in the anaerobic zone.

Azdak

Type I muscle fibers are being trained during your aerobic workout...Type II muscle fibers are being trained when you do resistance training with low to moderate rep ranges and relatively heavy weights. Type II muscle fibers can be broken down into 2A and 2B with type 2B fibers being responsible for explosive movements as you would see in Olympic type lifts like a clean and jerk or snatch and 2A for short to moderate duration, moderate to high intensity work as seen in most lifting routines.

Agreed. Type 1 is sometimes called slow twitch; Type 2 fast twitch. Slow twitch is generally a smaller fiber and responds to steady-state endurance training, usually by becoming stronger without much change in size. Fast twitch responds to sprints and strength training.

It takes a lot to get Type 1 muscle fibers to grow. Examples are world class cyclists, marathoners, etc. These people will have greater percentages of slow twitch fibers and may gain some size from the long endurance racing, generally in the lower body, where the muscles are taxed more. For most of the population, routine cardio endurance is too little to make the muscles grow beyond a certain point. Unless you're running marathons regularly, riding bikes in long endurance races, etc., you're not going to see much in the way of Type 1 growth.

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

Some people are genetically predisposed to one type of muscle fiber over another.

Thanks for all the replies. The fast twitch / slow twitch definition is what I was looking for. Given that, and given your second to last sentence, building muscle IS possible on an elliptical if you are doing HIIT.

OK, granted, I'm doing the "old fat guy" version of HIIT, but for my fitness level, that's what you get.

Not really. Training effects are specific to the activity being performed. Several posts have laid it out for you, but the essence is that an exercise that can be repeated hundreds or thousands of times without reaching muscle failure does not and cannot have the same effect as an exercise that results in failure in 4-8 repetitions.

DavPul

Type I muscle fibers are being trained during your aerobic workout...Type II muscle fibers are being trained when you do resistance training with low to moderate rep ranges and relatively heavy weights. Type II muscle fibers can be broken down into 2A and 2B with type 2B fibers being responsible for explosive movements as you would see in Olympic type lifts like a clean and jerk or snatch and 2A for short to moderate duration, moderate to high intensity work as seen in most lifting routines.

Agreed. Type 1 is sometimes called slow twitch; Type 2 fast twitch. Slow twitch is generally a smaller fiber and responds to steady-state endurance training, usually by becoming stronger without much change in size. Fast twitch responds to sprints and strength training.

It takes a lot to get Type 1 muscle fibers to grow. Examples are world class cyclists, marathoners, etc. These people will have greater percentages of slow twitch fibers and may gain some size from the long endurance racing, generally in the lower body, where the muscles are taxed more. For most of the population, routine cardio endurance is too little to make the muscles grow beyond a certain point. Unless you're running marathons regularly, riding bikes in long endurance races, etc., you're not going to see much in the way of Type 1 growth.

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

Some people are genetically predisposed to one type of muscle fiber over another.

Thanks for all the replies. The fast twitch / slow twitch definition is what I was looking for. Given that, and given your second to last sentence, building muscle IS possible on an elliptical if you are doing HIIT.

OK, granted, I'm doing the "old fat guy" version of HIIT, but for my fitness level, that's what you get.

NO, it's not possible. In your opening statement you said these conversations get heated, but you'll notice that we're all calmly answering your question. But you're still insisting on believing something that's incorrect. That's how most of these threads go. People don't wish to accept the truth and then the back and forth begins and next thing you know the thread is full of cat gifs.

loveculturefitmom

I think they both build muscle but not at the same rate. cardio will build muscle because you caring your body weight but the motion stop after you stop running vs weight training for 24 hours. I feel the same way about running and bicycling. they say you burn more calories when running but I feel like i workout more when bicycling.

ronbo62098

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

NO, it's not possible. In your opening statement you said these conversations get heated, but you'll notice that we're all calmly answering your question. But you're still insisting on believing something that's incorrect. That's how most of these threads go. People don't wish to accept the truth and then the back and forth begins and next thing you know the thread is full of cat gifs.

I'm not "insisting" on anything - I am honestly looking for answers. Yes, the conversation so far has been civil - and I'm appreciative of that. However, given quote above - you CAN build muscle using HIIT. Is this incorrect?

There are plenty of simple "yes you can" and "no you can't" type answers and these boards. I was asking for an actual explanation and got one that actually explained fast twitch vs slow twitch. In that very same explanation, it said you can build fast twitch muscle from HIIT. So again, what am I missing? Can you build muscle from HIIT or not?

ronbo62098

Not really. Training effects are specific to the activity being performed. Several posts have laid it out for you, but the essence is that an exercise that can be repeated hundreds or thousands of times without reaching muscle failure does not and cannot have the same effect as an exercise that results in failure in 4-8 repetitions.

I'm not trying to equate the two. I know full well I will never be "muscular" or "bulky" in any sense of the word. That isn't my goal. I know a hard deadlift that wipes you out in 1-2 lifts is using different muscles than running or pedaling or stair climbing.

My question was on the other end of the spectrum - can someone starting a basically zero build SOME muscle doing elliptical work. I know lifting is better because you can add more and more weight. But I'm not at the "add more and more weight" stage - I'm just beginning. At the beginning stage, it seems that pumping your legs through resistance (whether it be stairs, elliptical, leg bands or weights) has the same "push" on your muscles.

Pumping the elliptical is not equal to pumping 250 pounds in a squat. I know that. But, given that I am pumping (roughly) body-weight in both squat/elliptical now, is there a similar benefit?