Quesion on cardio vs lifting

Galatea_Stone

well- unless you are lifting explosively (I do not typically) I still don't think you are hitting those fast twitch muscles. That type of training applies to lifting and running. I don't think you can just say 'cardio' hits slow and 'weights hit fast' (or vice versa) because you can train fast twitch with running and lifting- same as you can train slow twitch with weights and running... unless I'm totally completely mis-reading this.

I'm very curious about the responses you will get. I run and lift (I do sprints, short and long distances and lift pretty heavy - for a girl ). I never have the same soreness from running as I do from lifting, ever.

I kind of missed this point in responding to the OP. But I think it's important to not quantify or try to explain away your work.

There is no "lifting heavy for a girl" vs lifting heavy for a guy.

I'f you are safely but working hard at lifting from 0-5 or 5-10 depending on goals and diet- that qualifies as heavy.

It doesn't matter your age- ability or gender.

It's heavy.

Never excuse your hard work.

unless you aren't working hard.

I think wolfman13's separation of the fast twitch A and B is pretty good and to the point. Type A is activated predominantly through hypertrophic lifting. B through powerlifting, plyometrics, intervals and sprints. Slow twitch is generally an endurance/cardio developed muscle, or oxidative muscle, almost exclusively. World class marathoners can have an 80/20 ratio. Just as powerlifters and Olympic lifters have far higher ratios of fast twitch to slow twitch fibers.

Bodybuilders primarily develop fast twitch (type 2B) fibers. Power lifters and Olympic lifters and world class sprinters develop fast twitch (type 2A) fibers. Distance runners develop slow twitch.

alathIN

I am an SBR person - swim, bike, run - and don't do much lifting (usually only to target an area of weakness that is adversely affecting my SBR).

But I do notice that SBR can challenge me in both ways. Depending on the workout and how I'm challenging myself, I may find that the muscular effort is easy and it's the cardio that limits my performance. But it's certainly possible to do SBR workouts - which we'd normally think of as cardio - that challenge us in muscular strength. In running, my group does a "hill bounding" workout that creates a very weight-lifting-like muscular burn and next day soreness. Same thing with sprint workouts in the pool. This is particularly true when you make a technqiue change that starts working different muscle groups or engaging muscles that were less active.

So, yes, it is perfectly possible to get sore muscles from cardio workouts. It just means you challenged your muscular strength in addition to your aerobic capacity.

MeanderingMammal

...and it is perfectly represented in this photo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BHnMRiwCUAAgdgN.jpg . Sorry, not sure how to pst. Clearly, running does not build muscle (not 'serious' muscle), but I hope someone else can explain why.

I'd challenge the suggestion that those are the results of equivalent training. The runner has no quad definition and no calf/ shin differentiation, never mind being fairly small in the muscle department anyway. Clearly as a comparison there is no presentation frm the runner compared to the lifter.

Anyone doing serious running is going to be doing long steady state, higher speed, higher intensity intervals and hillwork. They'll lead to better results than that.

That siad, a serious runner will also be doing some resistance work to complement the running anyway, so it's unlikely to be a like for like comparison anyway.

ronbo62098

Type I muscle fibers are being trained during your aerobic workout...Type II muscle fibers are being trained when you do resistance training with low to moderate rep ranges and relatively heavy weights. Type II muscle fibers can be broken down into 2A and 2B with type 2B fibers being responsible for explosive movements as you would see in Olympic type lifts like a clean and jerk or snatch and 2A for short to moderate duration, moderate to high intensity work as seen in most lifting routines.

Agreed. Type 1 is sometimes called slow twitch; Type 2 fast twitch. Slow twitch is generally a smaller fiber and responds to steady-state endurance training, usually by becoming stronger without much change in size. Fast twitch responds to sprints and strength training.

It takes a lot to get Type 1 muscle fibers to grow. Examples are world class cyclists, marathoners, etc. These people will have greater percentages of slow twitch fibers and may gain some size from the long endurance racing, generally in the lower body, where the muscles are taxed more. For most of the population, routine cardio endurance is too little to make the muscles grow beyond a certain point. Unless you're running marathons regularly, riding bikes in long endurance races, etc., you're not going to see much in the way of Type 1 growth.

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

Some people are genetically predisposed to one type of muscle fiber over another.

Thanks for all the replies. The fast twitch / slow twitch definition is what I was looking for. Given that, and given your second to last sentence, building muscle IS possible on an elliptical if you are doing HIIT.

OK, granted, I'm doing the "old fat guy" version of HIIT, but for my fitness level, that's what you get.

tashdownunder

It'sx lactic acid that is causing your legs to feel 'wobbly' after cardio training. Lactic acid is produced when you tain in the anaerobic zone.

Azdak

Type I muscle fibers are being trained during your aerobic workout...Type II muscle fibers are being trained when you do resistance training with low to moderate rep ranges and relatively heavy weights. Type II muscle fibers can be broken down into 2A and 2B with type 2B fibers being responsible for explosive movements as you would see in Olympic type lifts like a clean and jerk or snatch and 2A for short to moderate duration, moderate to high intensity work as seen in most lifting routines.

Agreed. Type 1 is sometimes called slow twitch; Type 2 fast twitch. Slow twitch is generally a smaller fiber and responds to steady-state endurance training, usually by becoming stronger without much change in size. Fast twitch responds to sprints and strength training.

It takes a lot to get Type 1 muscle fibers to grow. Examples are world class cyclists, marathoners, etc. These people will have greater percentages of slow twitch fibers and may gain some size from the long endurance racing, generally in the lower body, where the muscles are taxed more. For most of the population, routine cardio endurance is too little to make the muscles grow beyond a certain point. Unless you're running marathons regularly, riding bikes in long endurance races, etc., you're not going to see much in the way of Type 1 growth.

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

Some people are genetically predisposed to one type of muscle fiber over another.

Thanks for all the replies. The fast twitch / slow twitch definition is what I was looking for. Given that, and given your second to last sentence, building muscle IS possible on an elliptical if you are doing HIIT.

OK, granted, I'm doing the "old fat guy" version of HIIT, but for my fitness level, that's what you get.

Not really. Training effects are specific to the activity being performed. Several posts have laid it out for you, but the essence is that an exercise that can be repeated hundreds or thousands of times without reaching muscle failure does not and cannot have the same effect as an exercise that results in failure in 4-8 repetitions.

DavPul

Type I muscle fibers are being trained during your aerobic workout...Type II muscle fibers are being trained when you do resistance training with low to moderate rep ranges and relatively heavy weights. Type II muscle fibers can be broken down into 2A and 2B with type 2B fibers being responsible for explosive movements as you would see in Olympic type lifts like a clean and jerk or snatch and 2A for short to moderate duration, moderate to high intensity work as seen in most lifting routines.

Agreed. Type 1 is sometimes called slow twitch; Type 2 fast twitch. Slow twitch is generally a smaller fiber and responds to steady-state endurance training, usually by becoming stronger without much change in size. Fast twitch responds to sprints and strength training.

It takes a lot to get Type 1 muscle fibers to grow. Examples are world class cyclists, marathoners, etc. These people will have greater percentages of slow twitch fibers and may gain some size from the long endurance racing, generally in the lower body, where the muscles are taxed more. For most of the population, routine cardio endurance is too little to make the muscles grow beyond a certain point. Unless you're running marathons regularly, riding bikes in long endurance races, etc., you're not going to see much in the way of Type 1 growth.

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

Some people are genetically predisposed to one type of muscle fiber over another.

Thanks for all the replies. The fast twitch / slow twitch definition is what I was looking for. Given that, and given your second to last sentence, building muscle IS possible on an elliptical if you are doing HIIT.

OK, granted, I'm doing the "old fat guy" version of HIIT, but for my fitness level, that's what you get.

NO, it's not possible. In your opening statement you said these conversations get heated, but you'll notice that we're all calmly answering your question. But you're still insisting on believing something that's incorrect. That's how most of these threads go. People don't wish to accept the truth and then the back and forth begins and next thing you know the thread is full of cat gifs.

loveculturefitmom

I think they both build muscle but not at the same rate. cardio will build muscle because you caring your body weight but the motion stop after you stop running vs weight training for 24 hours. I feel the same way about running and bicycling. they say you burn more calories when running but I feel like i workout more when bicycling.

ronbo62098

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

NO, it's not possible. In your opening statement you said these conversations get heated, but you'll notice that we're all calmly answering your question. But you're still insisting on believing something that's incorrect. That's how most of these threads go. People don't wish to accept the truth and then the back and forth begins and next thing you know the thread is full of cat gifs.

I'm not "insisting" on anything - I am honestly looking for answers. Yes, the conversation so far has been civil - and I'm appreciative of that. However, given quote above - you CAN build muscle using HIIT. Is this incorrect?

There are plenty of simple "yes you can" and "no you can't" type answers and these boards. I was asking for an actual explanation and got one that actually explained fast twitch vs slow twitch. In that very same explanation, it said you can build fast twitch muscle from HIIT. So again, what am I missing? Can you build muscle from HIIT or not?

ronbo62098

Not really. Training effects are specific to the activity being performed. Several posts have laid it out for you, but the essence is that an exercise that can be repeated hundreds or thousands of times without reaching muscle failure does not and cannot have the same effect as an exercise that results in failure in 4-8 repetitions.

I'm not trying to equate the two. I know full well I will never be "muscular" or "bulky" in any sense of the word. That isn't my goal. I know a hard deadlift that wipes you out in 1-2 lifts is using different muscles than running or pedaling or stair climbing.

My question was on the other end of the spectrum - can someone starting a basically zero build SOME muscle doing elliptical work. I know lifting is better because you can add more and more weight. But I'm not at the "add more and more weight" stage - I'm just beginning. At the beginning stage, it seems that pumping your legs through resistance (whether it be stairs, elliptical, leg bands or weights) has the same "push" on your muscles.

Pumping the elliptical is not equal to pumping 250 pounds in a squat. I know that. But, given that I am pumping (roughly) body-weight in both squat/elliptical now, is there a similar benefit?

DavPul

Pumping the elliptical is not equal to pumping 250 pounds in a squat. I know that. But, given that I am pumping (roughly) body-weight in both squat/elliptical now, is there a similar benefit?

NO

DavPul

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

NO, it's not possible. In your opening statement you said these conversations get heated, but you'll notice that we're all calmly answering your question. But you're still insisting on believing something that's incorrect. That's how most of these threads go. People don't wish to accept the truth and then the back and forth begins and next thing you know the thread is full of cat gifs.

I'm not "insisting" on anything - I am honestly looking for answers. Yes, the conversation so far has been civil - and I'm appreciative of that. However, given quote above - you CAN build muscle using HIIT. Is this incorrect?

There are plenty of simple "yes you can" and "no you can't" type answers and these boards. I was asking for an actual explanation and got one that actually explained fast twitch vs slow twitch. In that very same explanation, it said you can build fast twitch muscle from HIIT. So again, what am I missing? Can you build muscle from HIIT or not?

You're missing that just because an answer isn't a completely black or white YES/NO doesn't mean your point has been proven correct. You can build "some" muscle doing cardio. Just like I can build "some" endurance walking from my couch to my fridge. Is anyone going to argue that constant trips to my fridge is improving my CV health and endurance? Heck, when did this question become about HIIT, anyway?



How to frame this another way:

You're out of work, broke, and looking for a job. In one day, you get two job offers. Job A pays you $50 per hour which is more than enough to pay your monthly expenses. Job B pays you $1 an hour, which obviously doesn't cover anything. When you tell the employer for Job B that you can't live on $40 per week, he replies "Sure you can. You just have to give up your family and all your worldly possessions and commit to sleeping in the park while stuffing newspaper into your clothing for warmth."

So......
Do you think that Job A or Job B is the best way to make a living?
Do you accept the logic of the employer of Job B that you can live on $1 an hour?
Do you make a post on MyBrokePeoplePal stating that yes, you can in fact live on $40 per week and that anyone that says otherwise is ignoring the facts?

JoRocka

Thanks for all the replies. The fast twitch / slow twitch definition is what I was looking for. Given that, and given your second to last sentence, building muscle IS possible on an elliptical if you are doing HIIT.

OK, granted, I'm doing the "old fat guy" version of HIIT, but for my fitness level, that's what you get.

I feel a little bit like you're looking for an excuse to cut out weight training and lifting.

The results will never be equal or even similar.

You're training two different things.

I know full well I will never be "muscular" or "bulky" in any sense of the word. That isn't my goal. I know a hard deadlift that wipes you out in 1-2 lifts is using different muscles than running or pedaling or stair climbing.

there is no reason you couldn't be muscled and well defined. It's within ANYONE's grasp. You just have to be willing to put in the work and pay attention to your diet.
The steps themselves are very simple- it is just a tedious and time consuming process.

And if you have never done a heavy dead- you can say you know all you want- but you just don't understand how it's taxing your central nervous system and your muscles.

ronbo62098

Thanks for all the replies. The fast twitch / slow twitch definition is what I was looking for. Given that, and given your second to last sentence, building muscle IS possible on an elliptical if you are doing HIIT.

OK, granted, I'm doing the "old fat guy" version of HIIT, but for my fitness level, that's what you get.

I feel a little bit like you're looking for an excuse to cut out weight training and lifting.

The results will never be equal or even similar.

You're training two different things.

I know full well I will never be "muscular" or "bulky" in any sense of the word. That isn't my goal. I know a hard deadlift that wipes you out in 1-2 lifts is using different muscles than running or pedaling or stair climbing.

there is no reason you couldn't be muscled and well defined. It's within ANYONE's grasp. You just have to be willing to put in the work and pay attention to your diet.
The steps themselves are very simple- it is just a tedious and time consuming process.

And if you have never done a heavy dead- you can say you know all you want- but you just don't understand how it's taxing your central nervous system and your muscles.

I'm just looking for how much benefit elliptical training can reasonably give me. I've gotten an answer explaining the fast/slow twitch difference, then when I repeated that answer back, I got a firm "NO".

DavPul's response was "NO", then he says "yes, you can build SOME muscle". Well, "some" != "no". Yes, I know heavy lifting will have much more results - I'm not an idiot. Will I ever look like his pic? Nope - not going to happen. I'm fine with that. However, that doesn't mean I won't get "some" benefit (muscular wise) from what I can do. I'm just looking for an answer as to how much benefit I can expect. "Arnold" is not the right answer (obviously), but so is "none".

As a final note...

there is no reason you couldn't be muscled and well defined

Actually, there is. I am not medically cleared for heavy lifting. The squats I'm doing now (kettlebell) and leg presses (just above body weight) are near my limit. I've had powerlifters tell me to ignore my doctor and just lift heavy. Um, no thank you. I'll stick to what's safe for ME.

Which gets back to my original question - how much "muscled and well defined" can you get doing stuff other than heavy lifting? Again, the answer isn't "Arnold" but it's not "none" either.

segovm

Which gets back to my original question - how much "muscled and well defined" can you get doing stuff other than heavy lifting? Again, the answer isn't "Arnold" but it's not "none" either.

If that's the question you can get pretty well defined without heavy lifting, lot of people just do bodyweight exercises and are amazingly toned.

When I was healthy in my twenties, I was all cardio, running, biking, martial arts, etc. And I can personally attest to the fact that I was never muscular, just really really skinny. A lot of that was due to a low protein diet but I can safely say that running twenty miles or biking up 20 mile hills did nothing to "bulk me up".

Something about the way the body economizes motion but when you do something over and over it seems to optimize the muscles you have rather than building new ones. Makes sense, would not do well if migrating humans had to stop every few miles to rest and feed their 300 inch thighs!

I was strong. I had amazing endurance. But I was lean.

I think it's been covered here before but in my experience when I later did decide to add muscle mass, I needed to focus on maximum effort exercises done to the point of failure and of course add a bunch more protein to my diet.

If you are looking to add a little muscle within the limitations of your specific health restrictions, maybe you could get in touch with your doctor for a referral to a physical therapist who can help find exercises (bodyweight or otherwise) that could be done without aggravating any condition you might have.

Obviously all just my opinion, just hoping you find something that works well for you!

BigGuy47

you can get pretty well defined without heavy lifting, lot of people just do bodyweight exercises and are amazingly toned.

I agree with this except for the use of the term "toned". That word should never be applied to men, but hey that's my issue with semantics.

I think the important thing is to find a routine that works for you and consistently putting in the effort. No one ever got "toned" while sitting in front of a computer and micro analyzing the benefits of one exercise over another.

DavPul

No means no. You're not building any appreciable muscle in the elliptical. No one is and no one ever has. It don't care which setting it's on or what type of HIIT You're doing on it. Period. Double period.

Now, if you have a condition that keeps you from lifting heavy weights, you can address that and come up with the best possible solutions for your situation. But you can't make something true simple by wishing it was true because it would be convenient for your condition.

Neither Jo nor I is trying to force you to become us or attain our personal goals. What we're trying to do is force you to realize what the best path is to reach your personal goals.

JG762

Tag for later review!

ronbo62098

No means no. You're not building any appreciable muscle in the elliptical. No one is and no one ever has. It don't care which setting it's on or what type of HIIT You're doing on it. Period. Double period.

Thank you for this specific answer. On the prior page, a post included the following quote:

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

Which implies the exact opposite of what you are saying. Thus my confusion.

You've taken the time to follow up several times, and I appreciate that. The fast/slow twitch muscle post explained the biology behind the muscle growth, and you and Jo have been very specific about what I can hope to achieve (and not achieve) given my current workout regime. I know what kind of workout results to expect at this point and I can move forward from here.

JoRocka

Well.

Perhaps we should change this and swing it around since we are just back pedalling. and no one is getting the answers they want.

What are your goals? Be specific.

Because if it's lose weight- the answer is
DIET.

DIET.
DIET.

it is 90% diet.

If it's to get moderately fit- the answer will be- well depends on what is your definition of fit.

If you just want to live your life more comfortably by being able have better lung capacity - then you can get some of that out of the elliptical.

If you want to be a little stronger AND have better lung capacity and be more fit for day to day life- get off the elliptical.

1.) the elliptical is one of the most ineffective pieces of equipment in a gym - even for cardio.
2.) The only time anyone gains muscle off of it is when they are brand new to fitness- otherwise there are no strength gains.
3.) You do not NEED cardio to lose weight
4.) getting all muscley and bulky are different than having muscle definition and being lean and trim.
5.) STRENGTH gains are no the same as MUSCLE gains.
6.) You could absolutely look lean and ripped without being huge. That is primarily a function of body fat- not large muscles.

So if you are doing MODERATE weight lifting (if you are doing KB squats- sounds a like you are) and you drop body fat- you will be lean and "ripped" or "toned"

Getting BIG requires a lot of progressive lifting- getting ripped requires lifting but MORE attention to detail on body fat stuff.