Quesion on cardio vs lifting

DavPul

Pumping the elliptical is not equal to pumping 250 pounds in a squat. I know that. But, given that I am pumping (roughly) body-weight in both squat/elliptical now, is there a similar benefit?

NO

DavPul

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

NO, it's not possible. In your opening statement you said these conversations get heated, but you'll notice that we're all calmly answering your question. But you're still insisting on believing something that's incorrect. That's how most of these threads go. People don't wish to accept the truth and then the back and forth begins and next thing you know the thread is full of cat gifs.

I'm not "insisting" on anything - I am honestly looking for answers. Yes, the conversation so far has been civil - and I'm appreciative of that. However, given quote above - you CAN build muscle using HIIT. Is this incorrect?

There are plenty of simple "yes you can" and "no you can't" type answers and these boards. I was asking for an actual explanation and got one that actually explained fast twitch vs slow twitch. In that very same explanation, it said you can build fast twitch muscle from HIIT. So again, what am I missing? Can you build muscle from HIIT or not?

You're missing that just because an answer isn't a completely black or white YES/NO doesn't mean your point has been proven correct. You can build "some" muscle doing cardio. Just like I can build "some" endurance walking from my couch to my fridge. Is anyone going to argue that constant trips to my fridge is improving my CV health and endurance? Heck, when did this question become about HIIT, anyway?



How to frame this another way:

You're out of work, broke, and looking for a job. In one day, you get two job offers. Job A pays you $50 per hour which is more than enough to pay your monthly expenses. Job B pays you $1 an hour, which obviously doesn't cover anything. When you tell the employer for Job B that you can't live on $40 per week, he replies "Sure you can. You just have to give up your family and all your worldly possessions and commit to sleeping in the park while stuffing newspaper into your clothing for warmth."

So......
Do you think that Job A or Job B is the best way to make a living?
Do you accept the logic of the employer of Job B that you can live on $1 an hour?
Do you make a post on MyBrokePeoplePal stating that yes, you can in fact live on $40 per week and that anyone that says otherwise is ignoring the facts?

JoRocka

Thanks for all the replies. The fast twitch / slow twitch definition is what I was looking for. Given that, and given your second to last sentence, building muscle IS possible on an elliptical if you are doing HIIT.

OK, granted, I'm doing the "old fat guy" version of HIIT, but for my fitness level, that's what you get.

I feel a little bit like you're looking for an excuse to cut out weight training and lifting.

The results will never be equal or even similar.

You're training two different things.

I know full well I will never be "muscular" or "bulky" in any sense of the word. That isn't my goal. I know a hard deadlift that wipes you out in 1-2 lifts is using different muscles than running or pedaling or stair climbing.

there is no reason you couldn't be muscled and well defined. It's within ANYONE's grasp. You just have to be willing to put in the work and pay attention to your diet.
The steps themselves are very simple- it is just a tedious and time consuming process.

And if you have never done a heavy dead- you can say you know all you want- but you just don't understand how it's taxing your central nervous system and your muscles.

ronbo62098

Thanks for all the replies. The fast twitch / slow twitch definition is what I was looking for. Given that, and given your second to last sentence, building muscle IS possible on an elliptical if you are doing HIIT.

OK, granted, I'm doing the "old fat guy" version of HIIT, but for my fitness level, that's what you get.

I feel a little bit like you're looking for an excuse to cut out weight training and lifting.

The results will never be equal or even similar.

You're training two different things.

I know full well I will never be "muscular" or "bulky" in any sense of the word. That isn't my goal. I know a hard deadlift that wipes you out in 1-2 lifts is using different muscles than running or pedaling or stair climbing.

there is no reason you couldn't be muscled and well defined. It's within ANYONE's grasp. You just have to be willing to put in the work and pay attention to your diet.
The steps themselves are very simple- it is just a tedious and time consuming process.

And if you have never done a heavy dead- you can say you know all you want- but you just don't understand how it's taxing your central nervous system and your muscles.

I'm just looking for how much benefit elliptical training can reasonably give me. I've gotten an answer explaining the fast/slow twitch difference, then when I repeated that answer back, I got a firm "NO".

DavPul's response was "NO", then he says "yes, you can build SOME muscle". Well, "some" != "no". Yes, I know heavy lifting will have much more results - I'm not an idiot. Will I ever look like his pic? Nope - not going to happen. I'm fine with that. However, that doesn't mean I won't get "some" benefit (muscular wise) from what I can do. I'm just looking for an answer as to how much benefit I can expect. "Arnold" is not the right answer (obviously), but so is "none".

As a final note...

there is no reason you couldn't be muscled and well defined

Actually, there is. I am not medically cleared for heavy lifting. The squats I'm doing now (kettlebell) and leg presses (just above body weight) are near my limit. I've had powerlifters tell me to ignore my doctor and just lift heavy. Um, no thank you. I'll stick to what's safe for ME.

Which gets back to my original question - how much "muscled and well defined" can you get doing stuff other than heavy lifting? Again, the answer isn't "Arnold" but it's not "none" either.

segovm

Which gets back to my original question - how much "muscled and well defined" can you get doing stuff other than heavy lifting? Again, the answer isn't "Arnold" but it's not "none" either.

If that's the question you can get pretty well defined without heavy lifting, lot of people just do bodyweight exercises and are amazingly toned.

When I was healthy in my twenties, I was all cardio, running, biking, martial arts, etc. And I can personally attest to the fact that I was never muscular, just really really skinny. A lot of that was due to a low protein diet but I can safely say that running twenty miles or biking up 20 mile hills did nothing to "bulk me up".

Something about the way the body economizes motion but when you do something over and over it seems to optimize the muscles you have rather than building new ones. Makes sense, would not do well if migrating humans had to stop every few miles to rest and feed their 300 inch thighs!

I was strong. I had amazing endurance. But I was lean.

I think it's been covered here before but in my experience when I later did decide to add muscle mass, I needed to focus on maximum effort exercises done to the point of failure and of course add a bunch more protein to my diet.

If you are looking to add a little muscle within the limitations of your specific health restrictions, maybe you could get in touch with your doctor for a referral to a physical therapist who can help find exercises (bodyweight or otherwise) that could be done without aggravating any condition you might have.

Obviously all just my opinion, just hoping you find something that works well for you!

BigGuy47

you can get pretty well defined without heavy lifting, lot of people just do bodyweight exercises and are amazingly toned.

I agree with this except for the use of the term "toned". That word should never be applied to men, but hey that's my issue with semantics.

I think the important thing is to find a routine that works for you and consistently putting in the effort. No one ever got "toned" while sitting in front of a computer and micro analyzing the benefits of one exercise over another.

DavPul

No means no. You're not building any appreciable muscle in the elliptical. No one is and no one ever has. It don't care which setting it's on or what type of HIIT You're doing on it. Period. Double period.

Now, if you have a condition that keeps you from lifting heavy weights, you can address that and come up with the best possible solutions for your situation. But you can't make something true simple by wishing it was true because it would be convenient for your condition.

Neither Jo nor I is trying to force you to become us or attain our personal goals. What we're trying to do is force you to realize what the best path is to reach your personal goals.

JG762

Tag for later review!

ronbo62098

No means no. You're not building any appreciable muscle in the elliptical. No one is and no one ever has. It don't care which setting it's on or what type of HIIT You're doing on it. Period. Double period.

Thank you for this specific answer. On the prior page, a post included the following quote:

Fast twitch is more responsive to hormones and to breaking down and building up through strength training and HIIT.

Which implies the exact opposite of what you are saying. Thus my confusion.

You've taken the time to follow up several times, and I appreciate that. The fast/slow twitch muscle post explained the biology behind the muscle growth, and you and Jo have been very specific about what I can hope to achieve (and not achieve) given my current workout regime. I know what kind of workout results to expect at this point and I can move forward from here.

JoRocka

Well.

Perhaps we should change this and swing it around since we are just back pedalling. and no one is getting the answers they want.

What are your goals? Be specific.

Because if it's lose weight- the answer is
DIET.

DIET.
DIET.

it is 90% diet.

If it's to get moderately fit- the answer will be- well depends on what is your definition of fit.

If you just want to live your life more comfortably by being able have better lung capacity - then you can get some of that out of the elliptical.

If you want to be a little stronger AND have better lung capacity and be more fit for day to day life- get off the elliptical.

1.) the elliptical is one of the most ineffective pieces of equipment in a gym - even for cardio.
2.) The only time anyone gains muscle off of it is when they are brand new to fitness- otherwise there are no strength gains.
3.) You do not NEED cardio to lose weight
4.) getting all muscley and bulky are different than having muscle definition and being lean and trim.
5.) STRENGTH gains are no the same as MUSCLE gains.
6.) You could absolutely look lean and ripped without being huge. That is primarily a function of body fat- not large muscles.

So if you are doing MODERATE weight lifting (if you are doing KB squats- sounds a like you are) and you drop body fat- you will be lean and "ripped" or "toned"

Getting BIG requires a lot of progressive lifting- getting ripped requires lifting but MORE attention to detail on body fat stuff.

DopeItUp

I think they both build muscle but not at the same rate. cardio will build muscle because you caring your body weight but the motion stop after you stop running vs weight training for 24 hours. I feel the same way about running and bicycling. they say you burn more calories when running but I feel like i workout more when bicycling.

Thank you for writing this, you just made my day with this completely nonsensical post.

eric_sg61

Well.

Perhaps we should change this and swing it around since we are just back pedalling. and no one is getting the answers they want.

What are your goals? Be specific.

Because if it's lose weight- the answer is
DIET.

DIET.
DIET.

it is 90% diet.

If it's to get moderately fit- the answer will be- well depends on what is your definition of fit.

If you just want to live your life more comfortably by being able have better lung capacity - then you can get some of that out of the elliptical.

If you want to be a little stronger AND have better lung capacity and be more fit for day to day life- get off the elliptical.

1.) the elliptical is one of the most ineffective pieces of equipment in a gym - even for cardio.
2.) The only time anyone gains muscle off of it is when they are brand new to fitness- otherwise there are no strength gains.
3.) You do not NEED cardio to lose weight
4.) getting all muscley and bulky are different than having muscle definition and being lean and trim.
5.) STRENGTH gains are no the same as MUSCLE gains.
6.) You could absolutely look lean and ripped without being huge. That is primarily a function of body fat- not large muscles.

So if you are doing MODERATE weight lifting (if you are doing KB squats- sounds a like you are) and you drop body fat- you will be lean and "ripped" or "toned"

Getting BIG requires a lot of progressive lifting- getting ripped requires lifting but MORE attention to detail on body fat stuff.

THIS. Why would the body adapt to cardio by making more metabolically expensive tissue and by adding bodyweight ?

ronbo62098

JoRocka - just a couple final notes...

Perhaps we should change this and swing it around since we are just back pedalling. and no one is getting the answers they want.

I'm satisfied with the answers I got. I have always read that you can't build muscle doing cardio, my question was "why, biologically, is this so?" That was answered. It wasn't a question about goals - it was about expectations. This is what I'm doing (elliptical, very light lifting), what can I expect, and what are the differences in gains for each? Again, got answers to that. I'm good.

2.) The only time anyone gains muscle off of it is when they are brand new to fitness- otherwise there are no strength gains.

This is exactly what prompted my question. When I first started, I could barely do 30 min. I can now do twice that. I haven't fully outgrown the elliptical because I'm still only "pushing" 1/2 the time (two min fast/slow intervals). I expect I will certainly max out any "gains" on the elliptical soon, but I have seen gains in my ability - thus prompting the question: how do those gains compare to lifting gains. Again, answered and done.

My thanks to all those who provided details of not just "what" but "why".