anybody here squating heavy without a rack?
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Sorry.. the source is called life experience.. Some of us have actually experienced things outside of a book. Do whatever you want, I only stated my opinion.
BTW.. I never mentioned traumatic injuries.. just injuries.. that includes overuse.-1 -
Any way you look at it eventually you will need a rack if you are to fully progress and safely0
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Screwedntattooed wrote: »Any way you look at it eventually you will need a rack if you are to fully progress and safely
Agree 100%. There is a reason that the squat rack was invented.
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Sorry.. the source is called life experience.. Some of us have actually experienced things outside of a book.
Badly, apparently. I see. n=1 solutions are the same as n=many solutions.Do whatever you want, I only stated my opinion.
Opinions that run utterly counter to factual information.BTW.. I never mentioned traumatic injuries.. just injuries.. that includes overuse.
By that definition - injury of any kind - life is dangerous.
Ban it.0 -
How about some information to support all of your claims?
You mean other than the links I put above? A least I'm quoting my sources, whereas you're lifting text straight from this site without attribution. Nice going.
"[The barbell squat] is a functional and safe exercise that is obviously transferable to many movements in sports and life. " -- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22373894
"Progressive resistance, whole body long-axis rotational training may improve performance during sports movements that require quick, integrated trunk-lower extremity function." --http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23643048
An opinion piece, since you love opinion so much. http://www.acsm.org/docs/current-comments/safetysquat.pdf
Between the previous citations and these three, that should be enough to get you going.0 -
Ask anyone who has suffered a back injury what they think about squats.
A lot of people think they're invincible until something happens to them.
Early in a military career soldiers are all for getting in a fight, but ask a veteran what they think of war and you'll get a different story. Life experience changes people's perspective on many things.
As for statistics.. well those don't always tell the truth. My dad suffered respiratory failure leading to a heart attack from COPD.. the death certificate stated that the death wasn't related to smoking even though it certainly was. But those reported statistics don't reflect the truth.
I didn't offer my number to fight! Just figured if you were going to continually debate all my points it would be best accomplished without filling up this forum with unrelated material. But you didn't call and hid behind your keyboard.
What I'm getting at is that you can't base everything off of statistics, or any one persons opinion. People are going to do what they want regardless of the consequences, but I would recommend people research the pros and cons of an activity so they can make an informed decision. After all it is the individuals decision. Attacking people with a different opinion doesn't help.
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I did for a long time. I lift at home. I had a squat stand, but not a rack. I know how to bail on a lift, and I never pushed to a point where I even thought I might fail the lift.
That being said, it's not the best idea. I have a rack now. I've yet to fail a squat in it, but it's saved my neck benching a few times. Worth every penny.0 -
I hurt my back in a car accident. I've double the amount of weight I squat this summer while rehabbing a knee injury.Ask anyone who has suffered a back injury what they think about squats.
So, I have life experience, squats are amazing. Boom. Done. My n=1 just sank your battleship's n=1.
I understand the squat hate though, requires caring about form and putting in effort. That's difficult for a lot of people.
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Lee Haney, 8 time Mr. Olympia, did light squats and never used more than 225lb. He felt there was no real point to heavy squats. If an 8X Mr. Olympia didn't need them, then I think I'll be fine without them.
You can read a good interview he did about training here.
Remember this thread is about heavy squats.-1 -
225 isn't heavy.
He's also a BB on heavy gear. So... your "proof" isn't relevant to like 99% of the people on MFP. If there is a bodybuilder here hitting the anabolics hard, they might be interested in Mr. Haney.0 -
225 isn't heavy.
He's also a BB on heavy gear. So... your "proof" isn't relevant to like 99% of the people on MFP. If there is a bodybuilder here hitting the anabolics hard, they might be interested in Mr. Haney.
Exactly, he was a pro bodybuilder on steroids and was still able to beat out every other bodybuilder in the world 8 times without squatting heavy. He states that he didn't do heavy squats because he wanted to save his knees, hips, and back. Arnold, who didn't win as many titles, did heavy squats but also wrapped his knees to increase hydrostatic pressure in the joint to help prevent injury. If you weren't aware, steroids actually increase fluid on joints and help protect them, yet these athletes were still worried about joint damage. Lee was even able to excel in the sport without heavy squats. Remember once again, this thread is about doing heavy squats without a rack, I would hope that 99% of the people here would recognize the dangers in doing so. Though you will get many different opinions as to the merits of heavy squats, it has been shown that they aren't needed.
As with any exercise you should always use the proper safety equipment like a squat rack when doing these exercises. A caged squat rack would be the safest, because you will undoubtedly fail a squat if you do them long enough.
You can find a great video compilation showing the safety of barbell exercises and the effectiveness of spotters by clicking HERE.-2 -
You don't need to squat heavy to BB, everyone knows that. You're conflating two different sports to try to make some point that isn't supported by your evidence, reality, surreality, Carl Sagan's ghost, or science.
If someone is squatting, they should know their limits. Just like I know I don't need a squat rack until I go over 250#, I also have practiced dumping a bar. Others need to know when they do and don't need certain safety equipment. Simply put, if you aren't going to figure out how to do things right and safely, don't step up to the bar. Just like if you're going to put a stupid claim out there, have legit proof to back it up.
Please provide an article from something like the NASM or some other relatively scholarly journal/group, that isn't using elites or lifters who are geared up. You know, actually throw down some evidence worth a lick if you're going to make a fantastic claim. Because you just told us you invented the question mark, now prove it.
You can view a great video demonstrating what you've claimed here.0 -
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I understand the squat hate though, requires caring about form and putting in effort. That's difficult for a lot of people.
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^^ This. You don't hurt yourself with good form
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Lee Haney, 8 time Mr. Olympia, did light squats and never used more than 225lb. He felt there was no real point to heavy squats. If an 8X Mr. Olympia didn't need them, then I think I'll be fine without them.
You can read a good interview he did about training here.
Remember this thread is about heavy squats.
You're digging your own grave here. So some bodybuilder didn't like to squat heavy. What does that prove? Everyone knows bodybuilders don't care what amount they can lift, they go for maximum hypertrophy using whatever technique they prefer. Usually lots of anabolics and lots of volume.
As for your example, Lee Haney never squatted more than 225lbs, that's great. 8-time Mr Olympia Ronnie Coleman has video of himself squatting 800lbs for 2 reps. Ask him how he feels about going super heavy on squats safely. Pointless argument.
Squats are an effective and safe compound movement. Performed incorrectly they can be dangerous. Just like everything else, like operating cars, power tools or guns incorrectly. The only way to ensure complete safety is to sit on your couch all day and never leave the house. That way you can die of a heart attack by age 50, despite all of your efforts.
Point is, you can't win. Life is dangerous and we will all succumb to injuries and death sooner or later, no matter how careful we try to be.0 -
Trolls gonna troll.0
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That a world class physique can be achieved without heavy squatsYou're digging your own grave here. So some bodybuilder didn't like to squat heavy. What does that prove? Everyone knows bodybuilders don't care what amount they can lift, they go for maximum hypertrophy using whatever technique they prefer. Usually lots of anabolics and lots of volume.
Exactly.. the merits of heavy squats are debated among pros.. did you even read my post???As for your example, Lee Haney never squatted more than 225lbs, that's great. 8-time Mr Olympia Ronnie Coleman has video of himself squatting 800lbs for 2 reps. Ask him how he feels about going super heavy on squats safely. Pointless argument.
Remember, this thread is about heavy squats without a rack.. I never said squats weren't capable of being performed safely, only that heavy squats increase the risk of injury.Squats are an effective and safe compound movement. Performed incorrectly they can be dangerous. Just like everything else, like operating cars, power tools or guns incorrectly. The only way to ensure complete safety is to sit on your couch all day and never leave the house. That way you can die of a heart attack by age 50, despite all of your efforts.
Yup.. some sooner than others.Point is, you can't win. Life is dangerous and we will all succumb to injuries and death sooner or later, no matter how careful we try to be.
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That a world class physique can be achieved without heavy squats
You forgot to mention drug use. Also heavy squatting (and lifting in general) serves far more purposes than aesthetics.Remember, this thread is about heavy squats without a rack.. I never said squats weren't capable of being performed safely, only that heavy squats increase the risk of injury.
A bunch of people already stated that squatting alone without a rack or cage isn't a good idea. The point missing from your statement is that heavy squats increase the risk of injury when performed incorrectly—just like running or pretty much any other human movement with bad form.
This was already posted but clearly you didn't take a look so here's (again) a collection of studies showing that lifting heavy weights (with proper form) actually has a pretty low injury rate compared to other sports and that squatting, for example, can improve knee stability: Weight Training Safety0 -
Wrong again.. I covered drug use.. And when did anyone say that lifting in general didn't serve more than aesthetics? You obviously didn't read??LiftAndBalance wrote: »You forgot to mention drug use. Also heavy squatting (and lifting in general) serves far more purposes than aesthetics.
Yup.. and the heavier you go, the more likely you are to lose form at some point and the greater the potential damage. I doubt many people are running or doing pretty much any other human movement with bad form and hundreds of pounds on their shoulders.A bunch of people already stated that squatting alone without a rack or cage isn't a good idea. The point missing from your statement is that heavy squats increase the risk of injury when performed incorrectly—just like running or pretty much any other human movement with bad form.
I read it.. never saw once where they mentioned lifting heavy.. and they compared weight training to american football and gymnastics, which have pretty high injury rates.. so I'm not surprised that weight lifting wasn't higher than american football.This was already posted but clearly you didn't take a look so here's (again) a collection of studies showing that lifting heavy weights (with proper form) actually has a pretty low injury rate compared to other sports and that squatting, for example, can improve knee stability: Weight Training Safety
It's all about risk vs reward.. Each person can make up their own mind.. which I mentioned, multiple times. If you like heavy squats, then by all means go ahead and do them, but don't try to convince the world that they are necessary or without risk. Most of you trolls must have dropped out in middle school with the amount of false logic you use in your personal attacks.
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I squat alone in a home gym whilst my child is napping and my husband is at work. I can't afford to make a mistake and get stuck/hurt myself. I have a power cage and I wouldn't feel comfortable squatting more than just an empty barbell without one.
I find that the method of setting myself a goal, so 3 sets of 5 reps, and then if I manage it the next workout I increase the weight and hold that until I can manage 3 sets of 5 reps then increase again. So I squat to failure quite a lot, occasionally in both the last two sets. I've never yet needed the power cage to save me, but the day will come I'm sure when I am very grateful for it!0 -
Ask anyone who has suffered a back injury what they think about squats.
People like me? Heavy barbell squats worked a cure as the damage was in the spinal electors and not a disc injury. Even when I couldn't low bar squat, I could front squat without pain.I didn't offer my number to fight! Just figured if you were going to continually debate all my points it would be best accomplished without filling up this forum with unrelated material. But you didn't call and hid behind your keyboard.
You pulled an analogue of "say it to my face and not online and see what happens" and then expect to be taken seriously? And you're actually doubling down on this bet?What I'm getting at is that you can't base everything off of statistics, or any one persons opinion. People are going to do what they want regardless of the consequences, but I would recommend people research the pros and cons of an activity so they can make an informed decision.
Which is exactly why I posted up the links to scientific studies on the safety of barbell squats to counter your copy-paste of a horribly misinformed blogger.After all it is the individuals decision. Attacking people with a different opinion doesn't help.
Then why do you insist in calling everyone in this thread that disagrees with you a troll?0 -
Training from the way I understand it is to train to reach a point of mastery. There seems to be two questions here. One am I masterful in my squatting skills to go it alone without a bar when i am trying to exceed my joint limit
two.. Am I smart enough to know what my limit is.
I train with out a rack.. I teach others how t master squatting with out a rack..Not to be macho not to keep piling on the weight so as to prove more is better..
but to teach focus balance and believe it or not safety when the potential for getting stuck when at your limit is high. You can actually train your squat to offset the potential of injury from dangerous limits. doing squats without a cage is part of that technique..
Im a 2.25 90kilo plate on both sides guy..
To avoid injury or should i say the risk of injury I master the weight load at the low to mid range of my lifts. I sit within the body of the squat for up to12 to 20 seconds thats well below 45 degrees.. The weight load stretches fascia in this position and it teaches proprioception in the knees hips, glutes, gut, back and and arms. as you try to feel how to best center the load on the caps on the shoulders..
Another risk abatement technique is to lighten the load and squat balancing the bar with out hands on the bar or simply realigning the the bar when it starts to shift..If you have rear delts this will build confidence in your squat as you descend into the hole at the the heavier loads.
The last risk management way to master the squat is to use a light load to squat down and then only COME UP parallel to just above the knee.. repeat..This is extremely fatiquing but helps establish confidence in the use of your form at a max load..
Bottom line is.. At some point the weight load will overcome what the joint is designed to handle.. it makes no sense to amp the load and train so heavy that you are forced to use a cage so you can feel safe..
Its squat mastery you are after. Heavy weight means absolutely nothing except the worship of vanity.
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DanceswithWow wrote: »To avoid injury or should i say the risk of injury I master the weight load at the low to mid range of my lifts. I sit within the body of the squat for up to12 to 20 seconds thats well below 45 degrees.. The weight load stretches fascia in this position and it teaches proprioception in the knees hips, glutes, gut, back and and arms. as you try to feel how to best center the load on the caps on the shoulders..
I may be missing something. Are you saying you're holding at about a half-squatted position? With what percentage of your 1RM?DanceswithWow wrote: »The last risk management way to master the squat is to use a light load to squat down and then only COME UP parallel to just above the knee.. repeat..This is extremely fatiquing but helps establish confidence in the use of your form at a max load..
Definitely with a light (or no) load. The position of just above parallel and that transition (if I'm recalling right) is the maximum stress and shear force point on the entire knee capsule.DanceswithWow wrote: »Bottom line is.. At some point the weight load will overcome what the joint is designed to handle..
In building strength, overload is required to disrupt homeostasis, whether it's in more reps or more weight. If your goal is to build maximal strength, you're going to need to progressively load a bar heavier and heavier; this process will strengthen not only the musculature but also the ligaments, tendons, and lay down new bone matrices to deal with the increasing load.
This doesn't mean if you're on a program where you're doing 5x5 and you miss reps that you keep adding weight.DanceswithWow wrote: »it makes no sense to amp the load and train so heavy that you are forced to use a cage so you can feel safe..
And here's where we're going to diverge on opinion. I use a cage because bad stuff happens. I ended up crashing hard on a 1.5 bodyweight squat for reps when I missed the pin on reracking it. I've avoided being stapled by my neck on a foot slip with a low bar squat at two plate.
The power cage isn't a panacea against doing stupid things - and believe me, I've done a lot of dumb things - but a safety device for when things go wrong to prevent catastrophic injury.DanceswithWow wrote: »Its squat mastery you are after. Heavy weight means absolutely nothing except the worship of vanity.
I'll absolutely concur that form always trumps weight, but still insist that lifting heavy things builds strength, and more strength to bear on life is good for all manner of things.0 -
Actually there are lots of injuries and conditions you can get from just laying in bed. At the end of the day, we're all going to die.0 -
That makes sense, because with the amount of shear being applied to your knees, you can only do a few of them before you wreck everything permanently. Nice.DanceswithWow wrote: »The last risk management way to master the squat is to use a light load to squat down and then only COME UP parallel to just above the knee.. repeat..This is extremely fatiquing but helps establish confidence in the use of your form at a max load..
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Actually there are lots of injuries and conditions you can get from just laying in bed. At the end of the day, we're all going to die.
lol yeah- my bf figured that out last night- but I think that had more to do with the fact I kicked him in the chest...
but you know what I'm saying LOL 0 -
I did a lot of Olympic Lifting so I squatted outside a cage/rack a lot doing heavy squats. Olympic lifters tend to use very simple bar holders that have a base that looks like a tire rims attached to a pole so we don't have to move back a lot. Also, when you are doing overhead squats a rack or cage isn't going to make a difference for safety but could damage the bar.
If you are going to lift without a rack you need to know how to dump the weight properly as was previously mentioned as well as bumper plates and a thick rubber mat. Squat racks are a lot more simple and safe for most.0 -
I only squat outside of power rack with rubber weights. Just let go and let them bounce.0
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I read it.. never saw once where they mentioned lifting heavy.. and they compared weight training to american football and gymnastics, which have pretty high injury rates.. so I'm not surprised that weight lifting wasn't higher than american football.
Er, nobody cares if you don't want to squat heavy.
You don't have to use bad form to push 1RM lifts...you can simply follow a proper progression. I'm not saying it won't happen, but you make it seem like an inevitability.
On topic...racks are relatively inexpensive, and you can use a power rack or squat rack for multiple lifts. Also, you can easily add a dip station to a power rack, as well as use it for pull-ups. Nobody wants to get stapled at the bottom of a failed squat because they didn't use a rack and didn't have the presence of mind to bail when they were focused on all the weight on their shoulders. :flowerforyou:0 -
Sooooo much this. I refuse to bench press without one in the home gym. And yes, it's saved my life when a grip-slip resulted in 170lbs crashing on the safeties instead of my sternum....racks are relatively inexpensive, and you can use a power rack or squat rack for multiple lifts.
If you want to talk dangerous lifts, look at the bench press. Done heavy without proper spotters and/or safeties kills people.
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