to whom does 3000 calories apply to?
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There's pretty much no such thing as "healthy" weight loss for someone with a restrictive eating disorder. Especially if you follow the YourEatopia/MinnieMaud method and trust in set-point theory (and it's only a theory the way gravity is a theory, they know we have set-points they just aren't entirely sure how it works). Part of recovery is learning to love and trust your body, and allowing it to reach its set point by always eating at least your minimum calories. If you do that, your metabolism will restore itself and your body will settle at its healthy set-point weight. You may overshoot at first due to suppressed metabolism and other variables, but you will eventually taper down to your set point without the need to diet or restrict/control your intake in any way. That tapering can take up to a couple of years, but your body will reach its set point, whatever that is, and yes it may be higher than what some people (especially those with restrictive ED) find "acceptable". That's another part of the process, learning to love yourself regardless of size.Some of us are on here because we're TRYING to lose weight in a healthy manner, particularly when our metabolisms got wrecked from dealing with an ED for so long. Not sure why your advice should trump anyone else's on here?
I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, but people are recommending restrictive diets & exercise to someone trying to recover from an ED, and it happens pretty much every time this kind of thread pops up on MFP. What is ok for a non-disordered person is not necessarily the right course of action for someone with an ED.0 -
There's pretty much no such thing as "healthy" weight loss for someone with a restrictive eating disorder. Especially if you follow the YourEatopia/MinnieMaud method and trust in set-point theory (and it's only a theory the way gravity is a theory, they know we have set-points they just aren't entirely sure how it works). Part of recovery is learning to love and trust your body, and allowing it to reach its set point by always eating at least your minimum calories. If you do that, your metabolism will restore itself and your body will settle at its healthy set-point weight. You may overshoot at first due to suppressed metabolism and other variables, but you will eventually taper down to your set point without the need to diet or restrict/control your intake in any way. That tapering can take up to a couple of years, but your body will reach its set point, whatever that is, and yes it may be higher than what some people (especially those with restrictive ED) find "acceptable". That's another part of the process, learning to love yourself regardless of size.Some of us are on here because we're TRYING to lose weight in a healthy manner, particularly when our metabolisms got wrecked from dealing with an ED for so long. Not sure why your advice should trump anyone else's on here?
I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, but people are recommending restrictive diets & exercise to someone trying to recover from an ED, and it happens pretty much every time this kind of thread pops up on MFP. What is ok for a non-disordered person is not necessarily the right course of action for someone with an ED.
We must be reading very different ED recovery posts.0 -
See a doctor is to general ... SEE A SPECIALIST IN EATING DISORDERS.
You took the words right out of my mouth!!! there is a big difference between the two. She also needs to see a Registered Dieitian (not nutritionist) who specializes in eating disorder treatment.
Good luck, hun
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There are 4 comments in this thread alone suggesting she use a TDEE calculator, rather than listening to the scientifically backed guidelines on YourEatopia for ED recovery. I've seen people recommend lifting weights or other exercise while recovering, which could very well kill someone with an ED. Yes a lot of people suggested she see a doctor (though even they can be clueless about EDs, sadly), but I bet those few comments telling her to continue restricting/controlling her diet are the ones that will stick. It only takes a tiny bit of doubt to let the ED continue to fester. MFP can be a very toxic place for those with EDs, I don't really think that's an unreasonable observation.We must be reading very different ED recovery posts.
Edit: Just went through the comments here again, and someone suggested weight lifting!! In this very thread. Lifting weights during ED recovery will only do more harm than good. The body will rebuild the muscles on its own, while remaining sedentary. Lifting weights could kill her.0 -
There are 4 comments in this thread alone suggesting she use a TDEE calculator, rather than listening to the scientifically backed guidelines on YourEatopia for ED recovery. I've seen people recommend lifting weights or other exercise while recovering, which could very well kill someone with an ED. Yes a lot of people suggested she see a doctor (though even they can be clueless about EDs, sadly), but I bet those few comments telling her to continue restricting/controlling her diet are the ones that will stick. It only takes a tiny bit of doubt to let the ED continue to fester. MFP can be a very toxic place for those with EDs, I don't really think that's an unreasonable observation.We must be reading very different ED recovery posts.
TDEE is certainly altered from someone with an ED, but no one is saying to her "Eat less than you are currently," which would be restrictive. People telling her to go to a doctor is perfectly acceptable, and being clueless about EDs is acceptable, too; it's good for people to be aware of conditions, especially on a fitness site that attracts people with EDs (and even helps facilitate the development of those who have the existing propensity to have one), but in general, an ED isn't something people should become experts on, in which case advising OP or others go to a professional is the best response for all involved. As for the weight lifting thing, that can go one of two ways when people are recovering, but either way should only ever be done and monitored with a doctor and therapist on board, which is still what the majority response was in this thread.
This site certainly can be toxic for people with EDs, but your initial argument was "Don't listen to anyone trying to lose weight themselves," which is a very unfair observation of people offering advice, none of which actively said "Keep eating low."0 -
OP: I recall someone mentioned in another one of your past threads that there are ED groups here on MFP. They may be better equipped to offer support, or at least that sounds logical to me.
You should be under a doctor's supervision as far as actual advice to follow though. Good luck.0 -
Eating anything less than minimums is restrictive. 2000 calories is restrictive. She basically said she's still restricting, because she hasn't started really challenging the ED behaviors & thought patterns. I don't think it's acceptable for doctors to be clueless about EDs, especially considering they're on the rise and starting younger and younger. Obviously I don't expect the average person to be well-versed in them, why would they be, but that's why this forum isn't the best resource.TDEE is certainly altered from someone with an ED, but no one is saying to her "Eat less than you are currently," which would be restrictive. People telling her to go to a doctor is perfectly acceptable, and being clueless about EDs is acceptable, too; it's good for people to be aware of conditions, especially on a fitness site that attracts people with EDs (and even helps facilitate the development of those who have the existing propensity to have one), but in general, an ED isn't something people should become experts on, in which case advising OP or others go to a professional is the best response for all involved. As for the weight lifting thing, that can go one of two ways when people are recovering, but either way should only ever be done and monitored with a doctor and therapist on board, which is still what the majority response was in this thread.
This site certainly can be toxic for people with EDs, but your initial argument was "Don't listen to anyone trying to lose weight themselves," which is a very unfair observation of people offering advice, none of which actively said "Keep eating low."
Several did say keep eating low by telling her to use TDEE or that 3000 sounded "excessive", because it's not. It's been proven that's what healthy young women eat.0 -
You already said your doctor told you to eat and not count so that you do not restrict yourself. Even though most have no degree in what they talk about, almost no information about you or understanding about your situation and little to no knowledge, everyone on the internet has an opinion and will freely give it to anyone who passes by. Who cares if the internet equivalent of people on the street corner picked up a calculator, punched in some random numbers and shouted to eat 2010 cals another shouted 3000 and a third 4000 and then an argument ensued, listen to your doctor, not the people on the street corner. 0
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MFP isn't a great tool to use to calculate your caloric needs in recovery. You need more calories than someone who is "just" trying to gain weight because you're not just gaining fat and muscle. In recovery, you're trying to repair a lot of internal damage and rebuild your bones and organs, too, which takes calories. If the blog you're referencing is YourEatopia, I would listen to them over MFP. (Obviously, if you can go to a doctor, you should.)MFP suggests 2010 while the blog says 3000 which one to follow?0 -
3K nope I'm over 200 lbs and don't even eat that much. I eat that much on a bulk weight gaining diet but most of the time I'm eating 2K. My TDEE is 2650 or so.
My suggestion if you're trying to gain weight is figure out your TDEE and add 500 calories to it and eat whatever calories that comes out to. Don't just eat a random 3K calories plucked out the air.0 -
Eating anything less than minimums is restrictive. 2000 calories is restrictive. She basically said she's still restricting, because she hasn't started really challenging the ED behaviors & thought patterns. I don't think it's acceptable for doctors to be clueless about EDs, especially considering they're on the rise and starting younger and younger. Obviously I don't expect the average person to be well-versed in them, why would they be, but that's why this forum isn't the best resource.TDEE is certainly altered from someone with an ED, but no one is saying to her "Eat less than you are currently," which would be restrictive. People telling her to go to a doctor is perfectly acceptable, and being clueless about EDs is acceptable, too; it's good for people to be aware of conditions, especially on a fitness site that attracts people with EDs (and even helps facilitate the development of those who have the existing propensity to have one), but in general, an ED isn't something people should become experts on, in which case advising OP or others go to a professional is the best response for all involved. As for the weight lifting thing, that can go one of two ways when people are recovering, but either way should only ever be done and monitored with a doctor and therapist on board, which is still what the majority response was in this thread.
This site certainly can be toxic for people with EDs, but your initial argument was "Don't listen to anyone trying to lose weight themselves," which is a very unfair observation of people offering advice, none of which actively said "Keep eating low."
Several did say keep eating low by telling her to use TDEE or that 3000 sounded "excessive", because it's not. It's been proven that's what healthy young women eat.
A few in this thread has become "several," which is why I spoke up.
I didn't say doctors as clueless, I said other users; I interpreted your initial statement as saying the people recommending doctors were clueless (which is fine). Most doctors are clueless about nutrition in general, unfortunately.
That being said, there are many doctors and specialists who know what they're doing. They should be giving hard advice to OP, not you or I. Eatopia's a good resource, but even that blog urges someone with an ED NOT to take it is as advice replacing that of a professional's.
You have no idea what her minimum could be. It very well could be much higher than the notoriously faulty recommendations of MFP. It most likely *is* higher.
But the end-all be-all of this entire thread should be that OP see a trained professional.0 -
3K nope I'm over 200 lbs and don't even eat that much. I eat that much on a bulk weight gaining diet but most of the time I'm eating 2K. My TDEE is 2650 or so.
My suggestion if you're trying to gain weight is figure out your TDEE and add 500 calories to it and eat whatever calories that comes out to. Don't just eat a random 3K calories plucked out the air.
*Sigh* And here comes an outrightly explicit comment urging OP to eat less than she possibly should, as Tayloray discussed.
Your needs are different than a recovering anorexic, though OP's question did technically start broad as to who DOES eat 3000k.0 -
Well considering I said talk to a doctor in my first post I really don't see why you had a problem with it, or assumed I was talking about the people suggesting the same.
She definitely needs to find a good treatment team, consisting of at least a physician, a nutritionist, and a therapist. Unfortunately at times that's easier said than done, but it is doable, especially if she lives in a bigger city with more options.
And sculli123, just... no. It's not plucked out of the air. It's based on double-blind studies done to determine what actual, healthy people eat, not what they report they eat, or what disordered people eat (and that means anywhere on the range of disordered eating, not just having an active restrictive eating disorder). So please, just shut up.0 -
Of course my needs are different. However if she weighs less than me her TDEE is going to be way less than mine as well. Figure out what you TDEE is and then base your calories on that by adding or subtracting from it depending on your goal of losing or gaining weight. This works for everyone period. OP should eat more in the 1800 calorie range give or take.3K nope I'm over 200 lbs and don't even eat that much. I eat that much on a bulk weight gaining diet but most of the time I'm eating 2K. My TDEE is 2650 or so.
My suggestion if you're trying to gain weight is figure out your TDEE and add 500 calories to it and eat whatever calories that comes out to. Don't just eat a random 3K calories plucked out the air.
*Sigh* And here comes an outrightly explicit comment urging OP to eat less than she possibly should, as Tayloray discussed.
Your needs are different than a recovering anorexic, though OP's question did technically start broad as to who DOES eat 3000k.0 -
Slightly OT - I'm truly curious - how would lifting weights kill someone recovering from an ED?0
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Well considering I said talk to a doctor in my first post I really don't see why you had a problem with it, or assumed I was talking about the people suggesting the same.
She definitely needs to find a good treatment team, consisting of at least a physician, a nutritionist, and a therapist. Unfortunately at times that's easier said than done, but it is doable, especially if she lives in a bigger city with more options.
And sculli123, just... no. It's not plucked out of the air. It's based on double-blind studies done to determine what actual, healthy people eat, not what they report they eat, or what disordered people eat (and that means anywhere on the range of disordered eating, not just having an active restrictive eating disorder). So please, just shut up.
It was simply the way it was phrased (the parenthesis threw me off).0 -
Restrictive EDs destroy your heart.Slightly OT - I'm truly curious - how would lifting weights kill someone recovering from an ED?
Sculli123, man, seriously, just stop. It's not applicable to someone with an ED. TDEE underestimates, people overestimate their intake if they don't have an ED, you're here trying to control the shape and weight of your body, and the whole point of recovering from an ED is to stop doing that. It's not the same.0 -
Sorry, I use a ton of parentheses, it's a problem, haha.It was simply the way it was phrased (the parenthesis threw me off).0 -
People in recovery from EDs are at increased risk of a lot of really serious complications, including heart attacks. When you're severly underweight, you lose muscle mass from everywhere, including your heart. Any kind of strenuous exercise, including weight lifting, is contraindicated in recovery.Slightly OT - I'm truly curious - how would lifting weights kill someone recovering from an ED?0 -
Of course my needs are different. However if she weighs less than me her TDEE is going to be way less than mine as well. Figure out what you TDEE is and then base your calories on that by adding or subtracting from it depending on your goal of losing or gaining weight. This works for everyone period. OP should eat more in the 1800 calorie range give or take.3K nope I'm over 200 lbs and don't even eat that much. I eat that much on a bulk weight gaining diet but most of the time I'm eating 2K. My TDEE is 2650 or so.
My suggestion if you're trying to gain weight is figure out your TDEE and add 500 calories to it and eat whatever calories that comes out to. Don't just eat a random 3K calories plucked out the air.
*Sigh* And here comes an outrightly explicit comment urging OP to eat less than she possibly should, as Tayloray discussed.
Your needs are different than a recovering anorexic, though OP's question did technically start broad as to who DOES eat 3000k.
Did you magically come in here after I tried to defend other users with hearts in the right places? More goes into play with eating at recovery; TDEE is not a hard and fast rule for everyone, hence why morbirdly obese people can get away with eating even below their BMR, while very underweight people need a great deal more.
Even MFP told her to eat more than you, and that's saying something. Think about what you're recommending someone who's dramatically underweight with an ED. Ridiculous.0 -
OK throw out all logic and science seems to be the advice ITT. Full potato thread. Continue with your emotional eating goals.0
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Slightly OT - I'm truly curious - how would lifting weights kill someone recovering from an ED?
As others said, it puts strain on the heart which is generally one of the first organs compromised from severe deficits and undereating. Brain and heart tissue are often the first shed, as they require so many calories to keep running. Exercise in general outside of slow walking, etc. is usually recommended to be halted until a certain weight is reached. In addition, the calories required to repair muscle from lifting would be stolen from the more vital areas of recovery, like organs, body fat replenishment, etc.
I think lifting is very good for those recovering from EDs after a certain healthy point is reached and they're cleared by their medical team, but lifting from a very low weight and combined with undereating is a no-no.0 -
More specifically on the heart issues, your body scavenges from everywhere like someone else said. Specifically, it strips the insulation from the nerves (like those leading to your heart), called myelin. This can cause things to misfire, which when the heart is involved is extremely dangerous. Putting more strain on the body and heart while it's in this state is a huge risk. In addition to that, lifting weights builds muscle by straining it & partially destroying it. It's then built up bigger/stronger. When you have an ED your muscles are already destroyed & wasted. The body will not put resources towards building muscle when everything else is destroyed as well. It will focus on protecting and insulating the body first, and worry about bulking up later. You'll build more muscle by just sitting around on your butt and eating your minimums!0
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OK throw out all logic and science seems to be the advice ITT. Full potato thread. Continue with your emotional eating goals.
Well, that response is certainly not an emotional retort.
Sorry your knowledge of calories is limited to TDEE calculators. It's okay, most people don't ever need to know the intricacies that come with EDs, metabolic conditions, etc. it's just not okay to discover someone has one of those and still attempt to advise them in a potentially dangerous way.0 -
Don't follow freaking blogs.
Ask a doctor. For real. ED is serious stuff.0 -
Can I see your scientific evidence then? Because I can get you evidence for the 3000 calories. Or you could just look it up yourself, because the site (YourEatopia) has been mentioned multiple times already. Everything is fully cited and referenced. You're the one pulling numbers out of your *kitten*.OK throw out all logic and science seems to be the advice ITT. Full potato thread. Continue with your emotional eating goals.0 -
Of course my needs are different. However if she weighs less than me her TDEE is going to be way less than mine as well. Figure out what you TDEE is and then base your calories on that by adding or subtracting from it depending on your goal of losing or gaining weight. This works for everyone period. OP should eat more in the 1800 calorie range give or take.3K nope I'm over 200 lbs and don't even eat that much. I eat that much on a bulk weight gaining diet but most of the time I'm eating 2K. My TDEE is 2650 or so.
My suggestion if you're trying to gain weight is figure out your TDEE and add 500 calories to it and eat whatever calories that comes out to. Don't just eat a random 3K calories plucked out the air.
*Sigh* And here comes an outrightly explicit comment urging OP to eat less than she possibly should, as Tayloray discussed.
Your needs are different than a recovering anorexic, though OP's question did technically start broad as to who DOES eat 3000k.
1800 is way too low for someone recovering from an ED.
I've never been overweight. My weight has always been down around 100. Even when I was full term pregnant I weighed around 130. I am petite and small framed (I'm much shorter than the Op). And there were many times in my life, as a young women, very active as a dancer, that I ate 2500 to 3000 calories a day just to maintain my weight. If I eat 1800 everyday, that is a cut for me and I would end up extremely thin (depending on my activity level).0 -
I'm not recovering from an ED, but everyone's caloric needs are different, and I wouldn't necessarily recommend you jump straight to 3000 just because it worked for someone else, but it does seem like a good rough figure to aim for. From what I've seen in others, even those with "normal", healthy attitudes towards food, people can get freaked out from a fast jump in scale weight. If you're going from what I would assume is a really low amount to have a weight of 95lbs, to 3000 a day, you can gain a fair amount pretty damn soon. It'll pretty much all be water/food weight so nothing to worry about, but the mental affect it can bring on isn't always good, and some people feel like it's all too much / go back to a really little amount which isn't going to help. By all means if you're hungry, eat. I just wouldn't feel you have to reach that amount just yet.
You'll definitely need a calorie surplus to gain, but what I'd personally advise is to gradually increase calories, get your body used to higher amount each week to minimise the jump in temporary gain and then keep upping them until you're gaining at a reasonable rate, whichever you feel best at. Do you have a timeframe you want to reach goal by? Are you yourself in recovery from an ED (sorry, haven't read all the other replies) If so, are you getting help for this, because while forums are great for lots of replies, they're not going to know the best advice for you and your own situation.0 -
this study provides evidence for higher-than-
normal activity levels in outpatients with anorexia nervosa in
the presence of a markedly reduced body weight, a decreased
metabolic rate , and low serum T3 concentrations. #{163}3
We thank Samuel Refetofffor the thyroid-hormone assays
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/53/5/1143.full.pdf+html0 -
Exactly, hit the nail on the head with the part that says 'depending on my activity level'. That is part of the TDEE calculation. Abritrary recommendation of 3k doesn't make sense though.
Of course my needs are different. However if she weighs less than me her TDEE is going to be way less than mine as well. Figure out what you TDEE is and then base your calories on that by adding or subtracting from it depending on your goal of losing or gaining weight. This works for everyone period. OP should eat more in the 1800 calorie range give or take.3K nope I'm over 200 lbs and don't even eat that much. I eat that much on a bulk weight gaining diet but most of the time I'm eating 2K. My TDEE is 2650 or so.
My suggestion if you're trying to gain weight is figure out your TDEE and add 500 calories to it and eat whatever calories that comes out to. Don't just eat a random 3K calories plucked out the air.
*Sigh* And here comes an outrightly explicit comment urging OP to eat less than she possibly should, as Tayloray discussed.
Your needs are different than a recovering anorexic, though OP's question did technically start broad as to who DOES eat 3000k.
1800 is way too low for someone recovering from an ED.
I've never been overweight. My weight has always been down around 100. Even when I was full term pregnant I weighed around 130. I am petite and small framed (I'm much shorter than the Op). And there were many times in my life, as a young women, very active as a dancer, that I ate 2500 to 3000 calories a day just to maintain my weight. If I eat 1800 everyday, that is a cut for me and I would end up extremely thin (depending on my activity level).0
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