At what percent bodyfat did you start your bulk?

Aaron_K123

Hi all-

So I am currently working hard to cut the fat from my body that I unfortunately let build up over the last three years. I've dropped from an estimated 27% bf to an estimated 18% bf and am starting to look much better. I eventually want to switch to a bulk because, although not scrawny, I could stand to have a bit more muscle than I have. I am currently 6' tall and 170 pounds at 18% bf.

My plan was to drop down to about 10-12% bf at around 155-160 pounds before I started my bulk. I am already lifting for the purpose of training my body to get used to the movements but keeping a calorie deficit for now to continue my fat loss.

This is what I look like currently



So my question is more of a poll. At what point in terms of your % bodyfat (or appearance) did you start to bulk? Is there a benefit to having higher bodyfat when you start the bulk or does it make more sense to start at low bodyfat ~10% so you can really notice any fat gains and keep a handle on your progress? I imagine it comes down to personal preference but I'm curious about your opinions.

Thanks

I've read the following http://strengthunbound.com/bulking-complete-guide-for-beginners/ (thanks MrM) and found that helpful but wanted to hear peoples opinions

RaggedyPond

following

SugaryLynx

I started around 17% or so. For women, I think it's generally recommended below 20%, not sure about guys but probably considerably lower.

http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/should-i-build-muscle-or-lose-fat-first/

"The fatter you are and the higher your body fat percentage gets, the worse your calorie partitioning gets and the more likely your body is to start storing excess calories as fat instead of muscle."

mayfrayy

around 10 i start eating a surplus. usually coincides with hockey season starting.

Aaron_K123

I started around 17% or so. For women, I think it's generally recommended below 20%, not sure about guys but probably considerably lower.

http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/should-i-build-muscle-or-lose-fat-first/

"The fatter you are and the higher your body fat percentage gets, the worse your calorie partitioning gets and the more likely your body is to start storing excess calories as fat instead of muscle."

Yeah I think 17% for women is going to be like 10-12% for men which is what I was aiming for. I'm definately looking slimmer in my torso but I still have fat to lose on my belly/love-handle area and thighs.

mayfrayy

I started around 17% or so. For women, I think it's generally recommended below 20%, not sure about guys but probably considerably lower.

http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/should-i-build-muscle-or-lose-fat-first/

"The fatter you are and the higher your body fat percentage gets, the worse your calorie partitioning gets and the more likely your body is to start storing excess calories as fat instead of muscle."

Yeah I think 17% for women is going to be like 10-12% for men which is what I was aiming for. I'm definately looking slimmer in my torso but I still have fat to lose on my belly/love-handle area and thighs.

That weight for me doesn't come off unless im doing more weights. Lean muscle gets the last few percent off.

SugaryLynx

I started around 17% or so. For women, I think it's generally recommended below 20%, not sure about guys but probably considerably lower.

http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/should-i-build-muscle-or-lose-fat-first/

"The fatter you are and the higher your body fat percentage gets, the worse your calorie partitioning gets and the more likely your body is to start storing excess calories as fat instead of muscle."

Yeah I think 17% for women is going to be like 10-12% for men which is what I was aiming for. I'm definately looking slimmer in my torso but I still have fat to lose on my belly/love-handle area and thighs.

That's my worst area for fat loss. Ma genetics hates meeee. To be fair, I lifted for 9 months through my cut and then when I surplused..Holy cow! Off topic but the strength gains are so incredible. I'm like "neve want to cut again. ... ever! " lol.

RaggedyPond

I started around 17% or so. For women, I think it's generally recommended below 20%, not sure about guys but probably considerably lower.

http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/should-i-build-muscle-or-lose-fat-first/

"The fatter you are and the higher your body fat percentage gets, the worse your calorie partitioning gets and the more likely your body is to start storing excess calories as fat instead of muscle."

Yeah I think 17% for women is going to be like 10-12% for men which is what I was aiming for. I'm definately looking slimmer in my torso but I still have fat to lose on my belly/love-handle area and thighs.

That's my worst area for fat loss. Ma genetics hates meeee. To be fair, I lifted for 9 months through my cut and then when I surplused..Holy cow! Off topic but the strength gains are so incredible. I'm like "neve want to cut again. ... ever! " lol.

Cal deficit definitely sucks for trying to go up in weight.

darrensurrey

When I joined MFP I was in the same position you are now. I wasted a year trying to bin the fat. I should have just built up muscle and actually enjoyed food and the process rather than going through months of hunger and unnecessary HIIT. Still, it was interesting to see the effect - I got skinny and lost a lot of muscle mass as well as fat.

Since then, I've been focusing on building mass and eating moderately over my TDEE. I weigh the same as I did 2 years ago but look the right way round. And I get to enjoy food. Had a doughnut, packet of crisps and a bakewell slice earlier.

SugaryLynx

I started around 17% or so. For women, I think it's generally recommended below 20%, not sure about guys but probably considerably lower.

http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/should-i-build-muscle-or-lose-fat-first/

"The fatter you are and the higher your body fat percentage gets, the worse your calorie partitioning gets and the more likely your body is to start storing excess calories as fat instead of muscle."

Yeah I think 17% for women is going to be like 10-12% for men which is what I was aiming for. I'm definately looking slimmer in my torso but I still have fat to lose on my belly/love-handle area and thighs.

That's my worst area for fat loss. Ma genetics hates meeee. To be fair, I lifted for 9 months through my cut and then when I surplused..Holy cow! Off topic but the strength gains are so incredible. I'm like "neve want to cut again. ... ever! " lol.

Cal deficit definitely sucks for trying to go up in weight.

It sucked! I felt like I was in the endless stall loop near the end of it. /face wall. Lol. Then, bulking it's food and lifting heaven!

MsuK2girl

After 18 months at a deficit, 33%-25% BF, I said screw it and now I'm bulking. Looking for some strength gains and a well stoked metabolism. Hopefully a cut will be easier afterwards. So far I haven't even any weight, but bf has reduced slightly.

RaggedyPond

I started around 17% or so. For women, I think it's generally recommended below 20%, not sure about guys but probably considerably lower.

http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/should-i-build-muscle-or-lose-fat-first/

"The fatter you are and the higher your body fat percentage gets, the worse your calorie partitioning gets and the more likely your body is to start storing excess calories as fat instead of muscle."

Yeah I think 17% for women is going to be like 10-12% for men which is what I was aiming for. I'm definately looking slimmer in my torso but I still have fat to lose on my belly/love-handle area and thighs.

That's my worst area for fat loss. Ma genetics hates meeee. To be fair, I lifted for 9 months through my cut and then when I surplused..Holy cow! Off topic but the strength gains are so incredible. I'm like "neve want to cut again. ... ever! " lol.

Cal deficit definitely sucks for trying to go up in weight.

It sucked! I felt like I was in the endless stall loop near the end of it. /face wall. Lol. Then, bulking it's food and lifting heaven!

I am at that right now. Not much is going up if any. Too much fat to bulk quite yet though. Soon...

Aaron_K123

I started around 17% or so. For women, I think it's generally recommended below 20%, not sure about guys but probably considerably lower.

http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/should-i-build-muscle-or-lose-fat-first/

"The fatter you are and the higher your body fat percentage gets, the worse your calorie partitioning gets and the more likely your body is to start storing excess calories as fat instead of muscle."

Yeah I think 17% for women is going to be like 10-12% for men which is what I was aiming for. I'm definately looking slimmer in my torso but I still have fat to lose on my belly/love-handle area and thighs.

That's my worst area for fat loss. Ma genetics hates meeee. To be fair, I lifted for 9 months through my cut and then when I surplused..Holy cow! Off topic but the strength gains are so incredible. I'm like "neve want to cut again. ... ever! " lol.

Yeah I am excited to experience that. Recently I realized that the only time in my life ive lifted weights to strength train were times I got concerned about my fitness and was therefore also at caloric deficit to lose weight.

Don't think ive ever weight lifted at surplus, certainly not intentionally. Id say my strength gains have plataeued at my current deficit.

Megmo127

I started around 17% or so. For women, I think it's generally recommended below 20%, not sure about guys but probably considerably lower.

http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/should-i-build-muscle-or-lose-fat-first/

"The fatter you are and the higher your body fat percentage gets, the worse your calorie partitioning gets and the more likely your body is to start storing excess calories as fat instead of muscle."

Yeah I think 17% for women is going to be like 10-12% for men which is what I was aiming for. I'm definately looking slimmer in my torso but I still have fat to lose on my belly/love-handle area and thighs.

That's my worst area for fat loss. Ma genetics hates meeee. To be fair, I lifted for 9 months through my cut and then when I surplused..Holy cow! Off topic but the strength gains are so incredible. I'm like "neve want to cut again. ... ever! " lol.

Cal deficit definitely sucks for trying to go up in weight.

It sucked! I felt like I was in the endless stall loop near the end of it. /face wall. Lol. Then, bulking it's food and lifting heaven!

Same! Lift big, eat big.

BIGvulpixfux0r

Yeah, most of this makes a lot of sense. Sometimes the voices in my head tell me otherwise though, like just:
Keep eating. Forever. I want to consume the whole earth and everything living on its fetid surface.

SugaryLynx

That's my worst area for fat loss. Ma genetics hates meeee. To be fair, I lifted for 9 months through my cut and then when I surplused..Holy cow! Off topic but the strength gains are so incredible. I'm like "neve want to cut again. ... ever! " lol.

Cal deficit definitely sucks for trying to go up in weight.

It sucked! I felt like I was in the endless stall loop near the end of it. /face wall. Lol. Then, bulking it's food and lifting heaven!

I am at that right now. Not much is going up if any. Too much fat to bulk quite yet though. Soon...

I know those feels. Soon:drinker:

HeroesResolve

Hi Aaron,
Firstly let me say awesome job on your progress so far! You're right and it can largely come down to personal preference. When I lost weight, I preferred to cut down to about 12-14% and then attempted to bulk a little bit, but there is an argument to starting to bulk while you still have some fat on your body. I'll try and list my opinions on both.

Bulking once lower percent body fat: Again this was my preference. Not because I knew anything, but once you are low body fat it is much easier to see muscle forming quicker and your body toning. However, as you bulk, you will gain small amounts of fat, that is unavoidable as you enter a calorie surplus which is bulking, which then leads to a cutting again. (no matter what you'll kind of have this cycle of bulking and cutting).

Bulking with a slightly higher (but still healthy) % body fat: The pros to bulking with a bit more fat on your bones is something I wish would have been told me when I was younger. As you put on muscle and gain muscle mass, your weight may not change, it may go down and it may go up, BUT, fat mass will decrease. This being because all that muscle you've been working so hard to get on your body needs energy and fat cells are nothing but stored energy waiting to be called up and used.

This is my opinion on the case, there is plenty of literature out there to make a case for either. Personally, I can tell you that I am currently bulking (after letting life get in the way of my routines can gaining a bit too much), and am about to start a cutting routine that will ultimately show off the muscle I gained.

A research article you may find interesting http://jap.physiology.org/content/81/6/2445. I'd advise taking anything you read in Men's health, or fad magazines and publications like that with a grain of salt. When in doubt, or curiosity hits, google scholar, and search the actual research for what science is finding.

Aaron_K123

Well right now my weight and fat loss have been linear and I believe based on my bodyfat estimates that I have maintained my lean muscle. Since I'm maintaining a steady loss I see no reason not to continue for now but yeah if I plateau or my loss slows to a crawl i figure that will be my queue to switch to a bulk even if I haven't hit my "goal" of 10-12%. I'm not totally fixated on that, its just something I'm aiming for.

My loss has been smooth and linear though for now.

BarbellApprentice

If your primary goal is strength, then you would probably want to eat at maintenance or bulk no matter what your current BF% is. However, it seems like your primary goal is appearance. Like a couple have mentioned, I would definitely get below 15% before thinking about it. Maybe start reversing around 12%. You should still drop a bit more fat while reversing up.

I have only reversed/bulked for a couple of months out of my 2+ years of getting in shape. It was pretty glorious.

shmerek

I did a cut first, I wasn't over weight by much, maybe 15-18%bf but I looked pathetic. I did a 20% deficit and lifted the whole time. I figure I was between 10-12%bf (profile pic) when I decided to bulk a month ago. When I hit 15%bf I will cut again.

shmerek

If your primary goal is strength, then you would probably want to eat at maintenance or bulk no matter what your current BF% is. However, it seems like your primary goal is appearance. Like a couple have mentioned, I would definitely get below 15% before thinking about it. Maybe start reversing around 12%. You should still drop a bit more fat while reversing up.

I have only reversed/bulked for a couple of months out of my 2+ years of getting in shape. It was pretty glorious.

Curious, do you spend the majority of time in maintenance mode?

iPlatano

I started when I was 8% body fat. I've been clean bulking for a while(250cals surplus). I like staying lean while building lean muscle mass and strength!

MyChocolateDiet

Are you an X-men?

Aaron_K123

If your primary goal is strength, then you would probably want to eat at maintenance or bulk no matter what your current BF% is. However, it seems like your primary goal is appearance. Like a couple have mentioned, I would definitely get below 15% before thinking about it. Maybe start reversing around 12%. You should still drop a bit more fat while reversing up.

I have only reversed/bulked for a couple of months out of my 2+ years of getting in shape. It was pretty glorious.

Yup...appearance. Functional strength in my current occupation serves little purpose unless perhaps a big bookcase fell on me and I had to push it off. If I did a sport it would be long distance hiking and to be honest the lighter I am the better for that. No, pretty safe assumption there that my goal is aesthetic.

SideSteel

I tend to cut down to the 10% range before bulking. That may not always be practical for everyone depending on individual goals/circumstances/etc.

I would make some considerations towards your gym performance, your tolerance for fat gain, and your overall mood and ability to adhere to a caloric deficit as well. So just for example if your gym performance is reasonable and you're not experiencing any significant dieting related stress or chronic hunger/mood issues then "keep cutting" is perfectly reasonable even if you don't have a specific bodyfat% that you plan on stopping at.


There's also nothing wrong with eating close to maintenance for some weeks either.

A good read:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html


And another:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html

chrisdavey

In my initial large fat loss stage from at least 30% BF I was basically a slightly shorter version of you when I started to "bulk". I say that loosely as I really just aimed for around maintenance and over the following 6 years have very slowly increased that.

I focused on gym performance first and foremost.

Typically, I'd say cut to around 10-12% like you said but as SS mentioned in may not be possible for you at this stage. Some time around maintenance would be beneficial IMO.

Aaron_K123

I tend to cut down to the 10% range before bulking. That may not always be practical for everyone depending on individual goals/circumstances/etc.

I would make some considerations towards your gym performance, your tolerance for fat gain, and your overall mood and ability to adhere to a caloric deficit as well. So just for example if your gym performance is reasonable and you're not experiencing any significant dieting related stress or chronic hunger/mood issues then "keep cutting" is perfectly reasonable even if you don't have a specific bodyfat% that you plan on stopping at.


There's also nothing wrong with eating close to maintenance for some weeks either.

A good read:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html


And another:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html

Thanks Side, I will take a look at those when I get a moment. Pleasure as always to hear your advice and that does make sense that I listen more to my body and pay more attention to my mood and strength than to my percent bodyfat as I continue to cut.

Aaron_K123

In my initial large fat loss stage from at least 30% BF I was basically a slightly shorter version of you when I started to "bulk". I say that loosely as I really just aimed for around maintenance and over the following 6 years have very slowly increased that.

I focused on gym performance first and foremost.

Typically, I'd say cut to around 10-12% like you said but as SS mentioned in may not be possible for you at this stage. Some time around maintenance would be beneficial IMO.

I'm sorry perhaps I misunderstood.

Is the suggestion to transition to maintenance in the very near future as a "break" from my diet and then resume cutting or are you saying when I reach the base of my cut (either hitting a percent bodyfat goal or just bottoming out in terms of mood/performance) that I first switch to maintenance for a while before attempting a bulk?

Thanks.

Aaron_K123

This has been my weightloss during my cut.



So far I would say my mood is fine. My energy level can be a bit low at times, ie requiring more rest. I will admit I am getting a little fidgety and bored with the routine and am looking forward more and more to the idea of a bulk. My strength gains associated with weight lifting have plateaued which I think contributes to the fidgety feeling. I want to keep this going for another few months though and I'm not really high stress about that. I've kept myself on an even path, I've kept on target and I have been happy with my progress.

This was where I started just 4 months ago where I estimated 27% bf:

SideSteel

Great progress so far.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to take a two week diet break where you set calories to approximately maintenance. See how you feel at the end of the break, see what your weight does, see how your gym performance goes, and then re-assess at that point as to whether or not you will resume the cut.

Depending on your training experience and where your lifts are at you may want to address the programming aspect of things since that's certainly a variable at play. In other words while it's more difficult to gain strength in a deficit I wouldn't be quick to assume that it's the caloric deficit strictly at play with the stall in strength. In SOME cases it will be, but not in all cases.

chrisdavey

In my initial large fat loss stage from at least 30% BF I was basically a slightly shorter version of you when I started to "bulk". I say that loosely as I really just aimed for around maintenance and over the following 6 years have very slowly increased that.

I focused on gym performance first and foremost.

Typically, I'd say cut to around 10-12% like you said but as SS mentioned in may not be possible for you at this stage. Some time around maintenance would be beneficial IMO.

I'm sorry perhaps I misunderstood.

Is the suggestion to transition to maintenance in the very near future as a "break" from my diet and then resume cutting or are you saying when I reach the base of my cut (either hitting a percent bodyfat goal or just bottoming out in terms of mood/performance) that I first switch to maintenance for a while before attempting a bulk?

Thanks.

After seeing your weight loss graph with no plateaus, I'd just keep cutting for a bit

Bullking from a lower BF% "should" assist in have a better partitioning between muscle and fat gain.

And remember, MINI CUTS! Just because you are bulking doesn't mean it has to gain every week. I would normally gain for a bit, then tighten the cals a bit and cut for 2 weeks or so. This is pretty much how I do it and basically maintain visible abs year round without sacrificing strength gains. (Genetics may play a part as well but if you saw my family, you could tell that mine are "average".)